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Source: (consider it) Thread: Emigration
Tulfes
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# 18000

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I saw this programme on TV this morning (never watch TV daytime but confined to house with flu like symptoms).
Family, mum, dad and 2 young kids. Dad had lost business of property renovation in the recession and mum was supporting family as hairdresser. They had opportunity to emigrate to Australia (Darwin) and BBC sent them on a couple of week's holiday to check out house prices, employment opportunities, cost of living, lifestyle etc. The question for the viewer was, would they decide to emigrate. Lots of pluses and minuses but, after an hours TV, mum and dad decide to go for it (mainly on grounds of economic opportunities for dad who was unemployed in UK despite skills and strong work ethic). The young boy kid aged about 10 was very upset at thought of leaving behind his friends, school and extended family (very supportive and large extended family on Merseyside). Anyway, parents overruled. Was this ethical?

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
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Of course.

What is going on when we give (or even suggest) such decision making responsibility to kids? It is both wildly inappropriate and damaging.

Fly Safe (long flight)

Pyx_e

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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It would be a problem if the concerns and educational needs of the children were not considered. I didn't see the programme, so I've no idea if they were - I'd be incredibly surprised if that wasn't one of the things on the negative side of the equation. A "this is the best for me and bugger everyone else" decision wouldn't be ideal (though, in some situations may be necessary), a weighing of the benefits of different options and deciding what balance works best for everyone is a different thing altogether.

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mdijon
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The 10 year old presumably doesn't see at this time the difference that an employed father would make to his life. The parents could well be making the best decision for him as well as for them, but he can't see it yet - he just sees the immediate consequence of loss. I hope his parents do well and look after him, there's no reason to think from the information in the OP that they aren't.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
Lots of pluses and minuses [..] The young boy kid aged about 10 was very upset at thought of leaving behind his friends, school and extended family (very supportive and large extended family on Merseyside). Anyway, parents overruled. Was this ethical?

Sure. The boy's opinions form part of the consideration, but he shouldn't automatically get veto power.
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Porridge
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Yep. There's a reason why people must achieve a certain age before being allowed to sign contracts, run for political office, drink, drive, and marry. With Internet and Skype, extended family can still be supportive, albeit in different ways; and kiddo would be every bit as upset if they were moving to the next county. He'll get over it. It's less clear how long the family would manage to stay attached with an unemployed dad.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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The kid is 10. He's going to be leaving his school and probably a good amount of his friends in the next year anyway.

I mean, come on. How many of you are still friends with the same people you were friends with at 10? I think I still occasionally see one person from back then, and that's by no means a regular thing.

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Tulfes
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# 18000

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Maybe my flu is causing me to be rather tearful but if you'd seen this little lad's face when mum and dad made their decision you couldn't but be moved. He was a wee podgy chap and clearly a sensitive little fellow and the look of terror on his face as the reality of what was going to happen was very affecting. The programme was filmed in 2009 and it would be interesting to follow them up and see how it turned out. The parents seemed strong people who had been through a lot together already but stuck together. Mum worked 10 hour days in the hairdressing salon to make ends meet while dad had taken well to the role of principal carer for the kids which, I suspect, might not have been his first choice. The prograe starkly highlighted how children have little power over their own lives and are dependent on choices made by others. I have no doubt that these particular parents made a very difficult decision in the best interests of the family unit as a whole.
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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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I'd already relocated 3 times by that age. It can help you develop a more robust social persona. Which you are going to need in the longer term in any case.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I'd already relocated 3 times by that age. It can help you develop a more robust social persona. Which you are going to need in the longer term in any case.

I think for those of us with a family tradition of moving around a lot it doesn't seem like a big deal. I wonder whether, for someone who has grown up and whose family all live in a single area it may be more of a big deal. Culture counts for a lot.
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Albertus
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# 13356

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Tell me about it! I've come across a lot of people from the South Wales Valleys in the past few years and some of them - as adults- get nervous and fearful if they move two bus stops away, let alone to the other side of the world. This can be awfully stifling and limiting.
As for the OP question- of course it was ethical, for all of the reasons posted above.

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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594

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It is also worth remembering that these programs are set up to produce conflict that will engage the viewer, and then heavily edited to show the version of the story the producers want to tell. What you see is not necessarily what happened.

As someone who moved every two years, I find the idea of a 10 yr old calling the shots to be ludicrous. Yes, you consider the welfare of the children, but they aren't the major factor in a decision to move. The family certainly has a better chance of long term employment in Darwin than in the north of England in the current climate. That takes precedence, it seems to me. But Arethosemyfeet said, there is a definite culture around transience - maybe I would think differently if we had been rooted in a community.

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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Radiotimes identifies the OP program as Wanted Down Under and the family Name is given. (Series 4). The guide to the episodes of the 7 series of revisits doesn't include them. My guess is they came back again.

[ 04. January 2015, 20:38: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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I would agree with other posters that, as much as we might have real empathy for a child torn apart from friends and familiarity, this is not the sort of decision a child can or should make. Those of us who have suffered from unemployment know that the impact of the loss of a major breadwinner is going to be far more significant, and nothing to be taken lightly.

As the same time, I think we as a broader society have really underestimated the cost of our greater mobility. I grew up in an era when it was just assumed everyone "smart" would go off to college "somewhere else" and follow their careers to the far reaches of the globe. The notion of extended family living all in the same town seemed quaint and parochial. As the economy soured, there was even much vocal judgment directed at those unemployed who stayed put rather than relocating toward cities with (supposed) greater job prospects.

I've come to rethink that in recent years, as we've seen the cost of losing those close-knit community and familial bonds. Emigrating for a job is far riskier, for example, than is generally acknowledged. One factor in the mass homelessness in my area (Los Angeles), for example, is people relocating for jobs (more so in the past than now, although you still get the busloads of aspiring actresses waiting to be discovered). People move cross country for a job, and find that if anything goes wrong-- an illness or car accident that leaves you even temporarily disabled, a child-care arrangement that falls through, etc.-- you have absolutely no resources. No one to call on to help out, even for a very short-term basis. It's surprising (and scary) how much even a very small setback can cause the entire safety net to crash down once you are removed from that support system of friends & family. It's not the only reason by far that people end up in our L.A.-area shelter, but it is one significant one.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Tulfes, you ask if a decision by parents to move was ethical without suggesting any reason why it was not. OK, a child is upset at moving from a known environment. Unless making him upset was the aim of the parents, surely the child's unhappiness does not make the decision unethical. And who does make that sort of decision in a family? I'd be surprised if it were a child who did.

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mousethief

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# 953

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Of course the little nipper felt bad. He had every right to. That has little to do with whether his parents' decision was the right one, however. I'm sure they took the child's dislocation into account in their decision, but compared to dad being unemployed long-term, and given the natural resilience of kids to such moves (or all military brats would be career criminals or basket cases), it's really not much of an issue. Kid feels bad for a while, kid gets over it. If preventing making the kid feel bad is going to rule one's life, one would never get a dog or let them meet their grandparents, who will doubtless die during the child's lifetime.

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mdijon
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# 8520

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Children are also very upset when their parents take them for unpleasant medical treatment, but there's little doubt it is necessary.

Slogging-long-hours in the salon sounds like a poor second best to a more highly paid job in Australia, especially for family life.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
He'll get over it.

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I'd already relocated 3 times by that age. It can help you develop a more robust social persona. Which you are going to need in the longer term in any case.

It really depends upon the person. Very few will fail to recover, but for some, moving at a vulnerable time will have a lasting effect.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

I mean, come on. How many of you are still friends with the same people you were friends with at 10?

I do have friends who have maintained their childhood friendship their entire lives. There can be something very special to observe in such relationships.

Of course, what is best for the entire family is what should be considered. The parents have primacy as they have the experience, age and are the support structure.
"Bah, the little bugger will get through', is a poor attitude, IMO. Even though that is what often must happen. You do what you must, as a parent, and help the family adjust.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
How many of you are still friends with the same people you were friends with at 10?
Two of my closest friends have been my friends since the ages of five and eight respectively. We're in a minimum of weekly contact (e-mail, phone call or in person). I am in Christmas card contact with another one, and FB friends with a further two. Of my classmates at age ten, out of a class of 32, I could still contact about half, were I in a mind to do so.

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
their grandparents, who will doubtless die during the child's lifetime.
I was 27 when my adored grandmother died and 31 when my wonderful grandfather died. My grandfather saw my son baptised with his name as my son's middle name. If I'd been separated from them at age 10, my life would have been poorer.

That said, I agree that the decision to emigrate should be based on the family situation overall, and that employments trumps the boy's feelings.

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Jane R
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# 331

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My aunt and her family emigrated to Australia when I was a baby. When I was about eight they came back to the UK. Almost immediately they decided they'd made a mistake and started saving up to go back to Australia again.

They went back to Australia when I was in my early teens and are still there.

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Cathscats
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# 17827

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I think the ethical question centres around the BBC's making of such programmes. They make private decisions public property - as witness this discussion. And for people stuck between a rock and a hard place, such as being unemployed, they can be hard to resist. How else would this family have been able to go on a taster to Australia?

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Drifting Star

Drifting against the wind
# 12799

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Having watched quite a lot of this series over the years, the episodes that leave me speechless are the ones where a 16-18 year old is being left behind in the UK because they have started their adult lives (are at college/have a job or apprenticeship etc).

They are usually the child of just one of the couple, and there is usually a new, younger set of children. [Mad]

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Barnabas62
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I think the quid pro quo in this series is that couples contemplating emigration get help with the exploratory costs. What's always struck me as wrong is the "yes/no" vote at the end. The reality is that if there are serious divisions of views over go/no go then the third option - we need to talk this through away from the cameras thank you very much - doesn't seem to be on the table.

On a much lower scale, my parents got the opportunity to move to a better home when I was 11 and I really didn't want to go. I liked the home we were living in, I was born there and I had a close circle of friends with children in the neighbourhood. My parents took my concerns seriously, we talked them through and they helped me to understand their reasons for wanting to move. They also took me to see the new family home so I could see for myself why they were so keen. I was still uncertain but went along with them.

And they were right. They had assessed the choice much better than I had, but they took my concerns very seriously. In the end, if I had continued to dig my heels in, I think they would still have moved, but they really did not want that outcome. So they worked at avoiding it.

I don't know enough about this particular case, maybe something like that did happen behind the scenes? But it's a major choice, and shouldn't be a matter simply of voting at a particular point in time. Which is, unfortunately, the impression the TV series gives.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Drifting Star

Drifting against the wind
# 12799

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It is quite interesting to look at the updates on the BBC website that Doublethink referred to. Generally speaking, if you set aside the responses that are unanimous and heartfelt, it is difficult to predict whether a family will stick to their vote or not.

I suspect there are a lot of people (adults) who choose to go along with those who are more determinedly in favour because they want to present a united front on TV.

I think it's fairly clear that the decision is made either well before, or after, the cameras start to roll.

It is an infuriating programme though. I do a fair amount of yelling at the TV when watching it, usually to try to get them to realise that of course they are having a nice bit of family time, but that's because they're on holiday, not because there's some magic about being Down Under.

[ 05. January 2015, 10:08: Message edited by: Drifting Star ]

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Oh I'm sure the vote is "for show". Which makes me feel even more uncomfortable about that end process. There's still pressure to make a public decision for the sake of the show, not necessarily the family. Nice if they coincide of course, but that can hardly be guaranteed. Hawthorne effects and all that.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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All these people saying 'employment trumps the happiness of the child' seem to be assuming that the only place the parents could find employment was Australia. Which on the face of it seems very very unlikely.

There are plenty of places in the UK which have a lower unemployment rate than Merseyside but which would allow the child at least a measure of contact with his friends.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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My children moved about 20 miles. That's more than enough to significantly reduce the amount of time they spend with their old friends. For the 10 year old, there probably wouldn't have seemed much difference between a move to elsewhere in the UK or Australia in regard to maintaining his friendships. He wouldn't be seeing his friends at school and clubs, wouldn't be kicking a ball around with them in the park every weekend, wouldn't be at all their parties (and them at his). Family visits back to Merseyside would be spent mostly seeing family, without much time to see his friends.

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Dal Segno

al Fine
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
All these people saying 'employment trumps the happiness of the child' seem to be assuming that the only place the parents could find employment was Australia. Which on the face of it seems very very unlikely.

There are plenty of places in the UK which have a lower unemployment rate than Merseyside but which would allow the child at least a measure of contact with his friends.

We have friends who are moving their 10 year old from Cambridge to Glasgow because of a job opportunity. Even though they are in the same country, they are sufficiently far away (8 hours by car or a short plane flight) that the 10 year old has no serious chance of keeping in contact with his Cambridge friends.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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When I was 11 years old we moved from South Africa to England.

I will never forget getting in the minibus to go to the station (We sailed home by Union Castle Line) waving goodbye to my friends - knowing for a fact I'd never see them again (I never have) We had to leave the dog behind too, which was very hard for me.

I still feel some of that grief, but I also understood the reasons we had to come 'home'.

Positives -

I find it very easy to make new friends
I'm very good in new situations
I don't fear change
I love boats

Negatives -

I'm not good at keeping in touch
I still feel some sadness about leaving my friends
The weather (!)

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Jane R
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# 331

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Alan said:
quote:
My children moved about 20 miles. That's more than enough to significantly reduce the amount of time they spend with their old friends. For the 10 year old, there probably wouldn't have seemed much difference between a move to elsewhere in the UK or Australia in regard to maintaining his friendships.
My daughter's just started at secondary school - a different one to the one her two best friends from primary school are going to. And even though they still live in the same village it is difficult to maintain contact.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
My children moved about 20 miles. That's more than enough to significantly reduce the amount of time they spend with their old friends.

My kids have rotten luck finding friends. Every time they find someone that they have a lot in common with, and enjoy spending time with, there's a near guarantee that that child will move to a different state, or a different country, in six months to a year.

They still exchange letters every now and then with a couple of them, but small children can't really keep up a close friendship by mail.

These things happen. It's sad, but it's not the end of the world.

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Polly Plummer
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# 13354

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We moved house when I was nine: just a few miles away but I never saw most of my friends again, except one who ended up at the same secondary school. It took me a few months to get back on to an even keel. Looking back it had a big effect on my life, not in a good way - I became a lot more timid and introspective than I had been - but I survived. My parents didn't really have any choice in the matter, but I know they were worried about me and my brother.
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Pyx_e

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Hey Polly on the plus side you kept a roof over your head and a full belly.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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Sounds like it would have been better telly if viewers could have phoned in to vote "stay" or "go", with the family being obliged to comply with the majority decision.

I suppose you'd have to offer people a cash incentive to put themselves up for that (e.g. expenses paid up to £x if they get voted out of the country).

Could be great.

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DangerousDeacon
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# 10582

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quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
I saw this programme on TV this morning (never watch TV daytime but confined to house with flu like symptoms).
Family, mum, dad and 2 young kids. Dad had lost business of property renovation in the recession and mum was supporting family as hairdresser. They had opportunity to emigrate to Australia (Darwin) and BBC sent them on a couple of week's holiday to check out house prices, employment opportunities, cost of living, lifestyle etc. The question for the viewer was, would they decide to emigrate. Lots of pluses and minuses but, after an hours TV, mum and dad decide to go for it (mainly on grounds of economic opportunities for dad who was unemployed in UK despite skills and strong work ethic). The young boy kid aged about 10 was very upset at thought of leaving behind his friends, school and extended family (very supportive and large extended family on Merseyside). Anyway, parents overruled. Was this ethical?

Did they come to Darwin specifically? (Even though the cost of living here is amongst the highest in Australia). Of all the Australian capital cities, I cannot imagine any place less English than Darwin. But perhaps that is the attraction - year round sunshine and warmth, ameliorated by crocodiles.

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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'

Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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We never emigrated but thanks to my Dad serving in the RAF I attended eight schools. After that I moved around a fair bit, including two years overseas and it's only since we got to Newport at age 40 that we've settled down.

The effect has been that my wife and I (her background is 99% identical) have only recently got back in touch with any old schoolfriends, thanks to Facebook, and we are the World's worst at a) keeping in touch and b) decluttering. Disposing of cherished toys when you only have half a small packing case was hard, and not something one wanted to repeat.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Tulfes
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quote:
Originally posted by DangerousDeacon:
quote:
Originally posted by Tulfes:
I saw this programme on TV this morning (never watch TV daytime but confined to house with flu like symptoms).
Family, mum, dad and 2 young kids. Dad had lost business of property renovation in the recession and mum was supporting family as hairdresser. They had opportunity to emigrate to Australia (Darwin) and BBC sent them on a couple of week's holiday to check out house prices, employment opportunities, cost of living, lifestyle etc. The question for the viewer was, would they decide to emigrate. Lots of pluses and minuses but, after an hours TV, mum and dad decide to go for it (mainly on grounds of economic opportunities for dad who was unemployed in UK despite skills and strong work ethic). The young boy kid aged about 10 was very upset at thought of leaving behind his friends, school and extended family (very supportive and large extended family on Merseyside). Anyway, parents overruled. Was this ethical?

Did they come to Darwin specifically? (Even though the cost of living here is amongst the highest in Australia). Of all the Australian capital cities, I cannot imagine any place less English than Darwin. But perhaps that is the attraction - year round sunshine and warmth, ameliorated by crocodiles.
The programme didn't explain why Darwin had been selected as the possible destination. However, the immigration application appeared to be based on the wife's occupation of hairdresser (as opposed to the husband's non-occupation) and the programme mentioned a shortage of hairdressers in Darwin! Yes, the crocs were discussed at length, an expert was on hand to explain that swimming or even paddling at the beaches was highly dangerous during the wet season (October to May, I think).
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