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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The function and importance of satire
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
In what respect does it do this?
That is the entire conceit of declaring oneself to be engagé. Of course, in reality their allegedly no-holds barred style has limits:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin%C3%A9#Controversy
quote:
But I am not the one making a fairly serious accusation.
I am not aware of any evidence that CH readers, as a demographic, are particularly associated with misogyny.
So, as long as I only tell racist jokes to my non-racist friends, they aren't actually racist? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
And besides what I said was that it trivializes these particular rape victims - I'm not sure how you'd sift the readership for evidence of that.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Communist paper Liberation
It's hardly communist - that would be L'Humanité. Very left-leaning, sure, and produces the worst puns in headlines on a regular basis.
Thanls for the correction. Wikipedia says it was founded by Sartre, so maybe that's how my wires got crossed somewhere in the transmission.
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
I've had a few conversation with French friends who are on the #JeSuisCharlie wagon (which I have declined to join.)
I get their point that the magazine is pro-immigrant, anti-religion (of all types) and anti-right wing. I appreciate that they are in opposition to the National Front. All good in my opinion.
But I think Max Fisher has it right in What everyone gets wrong about Charlie Hebdo and racism. Invoking racist and stereotypical images even to achieve inclusive ends, still perpetuates those racist and stereotypical images.
It reminds me of a conversation I had to have with my teenage nephew. He used an expression many young North Americans use when they encounter something that is stupid, or uncoordinated, or feeble or (as my generation called it - lame). The expression is "That's so gay". When I asked him if he believed that gay people are stupid or lame, he said "Of course not." I said why call it gay then? Using that term, even if it directed toward some asshat right-wing preacher still equates being gay with being stupid.
To quote from the article:
quote:
This is a regular pattern in Charlie Hebdo's cartoons, even if you see the two-layer satire they often play at. People of color are routinely portrayed with stereotypical features — Arabs given big noses, Africans given big lips — that are widely and correctly considered racist. These features are not necessary for the jokes to work, or for the characters to be recognizable. And yet Charlie Hebdo has routinely included them, driving home a not-unreasonable sense that the magazine's cartoons indulged racism. Further, the portrayal of people of color, as well as Muslims of all races, has been consistently and overwhelming negative in Charlie Hebdo cartoons.
I don't believe this is satire, but oppressive. It may be subconscious but the effect is the same.
The "equal opportunity offender" slant doesn't work because invoking mocking images of the Catholic Church which is the nominal religion of the French mainstream, is different than invoking mocking images of an already stigmatized group of people who are identified by their religion.
Obviously the response should never be violence, but I'll stick to opposing the violence while not celebrating the content.
[ 14. January 2015, 04:44: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
I've had a few conversation with French friends who are on the #JeSuisCharlie wagon (which I have declined to join.)...
There's been huge popular support for the magazine in response to the killings. But you're an independent-minded person who won't let your criticisms be set aside just out of sympathy. The fact that these people are martyrs doesn't make them saints. The fact that they're victims of a horrible crime doesn't put them above criticism. That's what your action says.
But the content of your criticism says the opposite. Your point seems to be that victim groups within society - low-status ethnic or religious minorities, the "stigmatized" - aren't fair game, shouldn't be satirised/mocked/criticised, should be treated with sympathy because of what they've suffered. That the posturing-as-independent-minded journalists should respect the left-wing conventions.
Ironic, isn't it ?
quote:
The expression is "That's so gay". When I asked him if he believed that gay people are stupid or lame, he said "Of course not." I said why call it gay then?
When I learnt English, "gay" meant something like "cheerful" or "vivacious". A gay pub might be one brightly coloured with a merry atmosphere. The Cole Porter musical "Gay Divorce" didn't envisage same-sex marriage...
Regardless of whether you see the late-twentieth-century usage of "gay" to mean "homosexual" as a spontaneous evolution of language or a deliberate manipulation of language, there's something ironic about people now complaining about a new usage detracting from the existing usage. Like the poetic justice of hearing a thief cursing because his stuff has been stolen. Or someone who lives by the sword objecting to dying by it.
But then I guess satire and irony aren't very far apart...
Best wishes,
Russ
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Russ,
The use of gay for homosexual was not begun in the late 20th C. Early to mid-20thC. but there is no hard and fast evidence. It appears to be a deliberate shifting, but it would be because code was deemed necessary as homosexuality was not accepted. It has been used as a pejorative for almost as long as it has been used as an accepted term amongst the gay community. The newer meaning is still about labeling a group as other, as less than. So, perhaps not so ironic.
As far as satire, irreverence is often part, but racism and other forms of hate need not be. Charlie Hebdo definitely crossed over lines completely unnecessary to make their points. It is decidedly unironic to criticise them for doing so without wishing to curtail their right to create satire.
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
1938 movie "Bringing Up Baby": when Cary Grant is questioned as to why he's wearing a flowery robe, he replies, "Because I just went gay all of a sudden!"
Russ, what do you think was meant by the word "gay" in this context?
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
But the content of your criticism says the opposite. Your point seems to be that victim groups within society - low-status ethnic or religious minorities, the "stigmatized" - aren't fair game, shouldn't be satirised/mocked/criticised, should be treated with sympathy because of what they've suffered. That the posturing-as-independent-minded journalists should respect the left-wing conventions.
Ironic, isn't it ?
I fail to see the irony (or in fact the opposite). It would be ironic if he also had also said that he was in favour of completely free speech as a principle, but he didn't.
In fact, as my earlier link pointed out - there were already certain groups whom Charlie Hebdo felt were off limits - so they didn't have free speech as some kind of absolute principle either.
The French state similarly bans certain forms of self expression, when it doesn't serve their particular vision of how the state should be constituted.
[Similarly in the UK the loudest calls in favour of re-printing the cartoons came from papers who were in favour of criminalising the act of burning the poppy, and who pushed for Frankie Boyle to be prosecuted for making jokes about the Queen].
[fixed code & attribution]
[ 15. January 2015, 05:05: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Toujours wrote:
quote:
I've had a few conversation with French friends who are on the #JeSuisCharlie wagon (which I have declined to join.)
I've declined as well. Mostly because I don't like bandwagon-jumping, especially when it's a spontaneous, decentralized thing like this, and you don't really know what form it's gonna eventually take.
quote:
But I think Max Fisher has it right in What everyone gets wrong about Charlie Hebdo and racism. Invoking racist and stereotypical images even to achieve inclusive ends, still perpetuates those racist and stereotypical images.
I once saw an old copy of National Lampoon, dedicated to spoofing racist and right-wing attitudes in the American south. One of the pieces was called "Favorite Jokes Of The Southland", consisting of blatantly unfunny cartoons featuring degrading stereotypes of black people.
The ostensible point of course was: "Look how stupid these racist whites are. They think THIS kind of stuff is funny!" But a friend of mine who U showed the issue to opined that the cartoonists themselves were getting a kick out of drawing the stuff. I had to admit, he had a point.
On the other hand, I do find Ron Glass' enactment of opposing stereotypes on that classic episode of All In The Family to be quite brilliant. (It's the same story told fist from the viewpoint of a patronizing white liberal, then by an outright racist.) Even though the stereotypes, in and of themselves, are pretty offensive.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
On the other hand, I do find Ron Glass' enactment of opposing stereotypes on that classic episode of All In The Family to be quite brilliant. (It's the same story told fist from the viewpoint of a patronizing white liberal, then by an outright racist.) Even though the stereotypes, in and of themselves, are pretty offensive.
Video blocked due to copyright restrictions "in [my] country."
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
On the other hand, I do find Ron Glass' enactment of opposing stereotypes on that classic episode of All In The Family to be quite brilliant. (It's the same story told fist from the viewpoint of a patronizing white liberal, then by an outright racist.) Even though the stereotypes, in and of themselves, are pretty offensive.
Video blocked due to copyright restrictions "in [my] country."
Ah, sorry about that. It's not blocked over here.
Basically, when the liberal Mike tells the story, the black guy is a shuffling Uncle Tom(and hence presumbaly in need of protection from well-meaning liberals). When the racist Archie tells the story, he's a knife-wielding, hate-spewing militant with an oversices Afro.
For some reason Edith, depsite otherwise being an absolute twit, manages to get the story right, with the black guy being just an average repairman.
[ 15. January 2015, 03:12: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Managed to track it down and we watched it. First IMDb credit for Ron Glass. Very funny.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
For some reason Edith, depsite otherwise being an absolute twit, manages to get the story right, with the black guy being just an average repairman.
I've only seen bits of All In The Family, but she was, IME, the heart and soul of the show. And the one with the least preconception. It makes sense that she would see what was truly there.
Show on the telly, yeah, but that is a lesson that should be heeded more often.
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Hallellou, hallellou
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Lil Buddha wrote:
quote:
I've only seen bits of All In The Family, but she was, IME, the heart and soul of the show. And the one with the least preconception. It makes sense that she would see what was truly there.
Show on the telly, yeah, but that is a lesson that should be heeded more often.
Yeah, I know. She really does embody the Holy Fool archetype, a venerable tradition in art and literature.
My acerbic remarks could probably be applied to the whole tradition of the Holy Fool, which is one that I've never been particularly fond of. Probably because it doesn't seem to resemble(as an archetype should) anyone I've ever encountered in real life. In my experience, most fools are just fools, full stop.
On a side note, from the bits of TDDUP that I've seen on You Tube, Jean Stapleton would seem to have closely copied Edith's mannerims from the woman who played Mrs. Garnett.
[ 15. January 2015, 08:51: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
When I learnt English, "gay" meant something like "cheerful" or "vivacious". A gay pub might be one brightly coloured with a merry atmosphere. The Cole Porter musical "Gay Divorce" didn't envisage same-sex marriage...
I don't know what Cole had in mind. But he was gay, and did use innuendo and double-entendre.
quote:
Regardless of whether you see the late-twentieth-century usage of "gay" to mean "homosexual" as a spontaneous evolution of language or a deliberate manipulation of language, there's something ironic about people now complaining about a new usage detracting from the existing usage.
...except the current usage of "that's so gay" is specifically an insult. That's different from using "gay" as a code word or self-chosen label.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
My acerbic remarks could probably be applied to the whole tradition of the Holy Fool, which is one that I've never been particularly fond of. Probably because it doesn't seem to resemble(as an archetype should) anyone I've ever encountered in real life. In my experience, most fools are just fools, full stop.
It's rather interesting that you would express such opinions here, on the Ship of Fools with St Simeon the Holy Fool as our patron saint.
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
My acerbic remarks could probably be applied to the whole tradition of the Holy Fool, which is one that I've never been particularly fond of. Probably because it doesn't seem to resemble(as an archetype should) anyone I've ever encountered in real life. In my experience, most fools are just fools, full stop.
It's rather interesting that you would express such opinions here, on the Ship of Fools with St Simeon the Holy Fool as our patron saint.
Heh. Yeah, I thought of that after I posted.
In my defense, I will point out that the name of this forum, at least in its origins, somewhat contradicts the theme of St. Simeon, since the fools on the ship in Plato's allegory were a dedidedly unilluminated bunch.
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