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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Islam and violence
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Dang ... I messed the code up again.
Also, I think I was at cross-purposes myself on some of the points I thought I was addressing ...
The point, though, is that even the most axiomatic issues still need to be processed and considered within a whole raft of responses, factors and contexts ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's axiomatic regardless.
[ 18. January 2015, 11:46: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
One of the odd things about the idea of 'inherently violent' (or in fact, inherently anything), is that it seems to block change. If Islam just has the bacillus of violence roaming in its bloodstream, then the only solution is to stop being a Muslim, or possibly, lock up all the Muslims (or deport them).
It's also a puzzle that so many Muslims are not violent, although you could say (along with IS), that they are not true Muslims, and have somehow left the faith.
In fact, it seems to make the current situation worse, since the possibility of dialogue, or reaching out to moderate Muslims, is suspect, since we know that they too, are inherently violent.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
and sooner the better.
When has any reformation happened quickly? Or do you think the Protestant Reformation was soley kicked off by the 95 Theses?
And since you missed my italics, I'll try caps. The documentary shows MUSLIMS discussing Islamic reform. That is exactly who should be, and we ought to either support their efforts or shut up and leave them to it. The sooner the better.
The other thing that seems to be happening is secularization, by which I mean Muslims not going to mosque. Thus, it's said that in France, about two thirds of Muslims don't; of course, they may still be devout, I suppose.
Even odder is Iran, where the often cited stat is about 1-2% go to mosque; although here, there may be some other factor intervening, such as political opposition to the ayatollahs.
You would guess that this process is happening to young people more than old - they are being Westernized, and hence reject religion!
Maybe this is the real solution - Christianity has become less toxic, as it has become irrelevant.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's gone from strong hostile to weak hostile or weak benevolent. Islam isn't as far along that path. Islam cannot be strong benevolent and be true to its foundation. Christianity can in theory but not in practice. The only hope for Islam as for the world is strong benevolent Christianity.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's gone from strong hostile to weak hostile or weak benevolent. Islam isn't as far along that path. Islam cannot be strong benevolent and be true to its foundation. Christianity can in theory but not in practice. The only hope for Islam as for the world is strong benevolent Christianity.
This is a string of generalisations which make no sense at all except in your brain. Please make the attempt to explain. You've probably been told that you are a genius and that it is we ordinary mortals who must try and understand your wisdom. It is not true, okay. It really repays to make sense.
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
My last post was intemperate and insulting to Martin. Sorry.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
My last post was intemperate and insulting to Martin. Sorry.
That's true, but I'd also like Martin60 to come back and explain/expand on his earlier post.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Wee-wee end Spawn, wee-wee end. Me not you. And none taken mate. Admins, please, lay nowt at his door. I'm a provocative old sod.
Christianity is predominantly weak and hostile with a side order of weak benevolent. Historically, since its institutionalization under the state, when strong, it has been hostile. Generally, not wholly, true generalizations.
In Russia now it is a strong, hostile tool of the state. I can't think of a single historical example of Christian power being benevolent. Not one.
Can you?
In the context of something as innocently, helplessly reactionary to Christian hostility as Islam, it must be strongly benevolent. Insist on being kind regardless.
It's the ONLY hope.
Meaningless I'm sure.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think there's some kind of cross-purpose thing going on here ...
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You claimed that “everything everywhere is a matter of interpretation”.
Most things in our life, most of the time, clearly are not – we don’t even think about them, and we don’t need to.
However, there are some issues which are both imperative to consciously think about, and to which there is a straightforward true/false answer.
Whether or not the NT teaches Christian violence is one of them.
No it isn't.
Whether or not the NT teaches Christian violence is something we do have to consciously think about. To arrive at that conclusion requires conscious thought.
It takes conscious thought,too, to conclude whether or not Jesus taught paedophilia, or whether the events described in the NT took place in China.
Conscious thought lasting a squillionth of a second because the answers to them are so obvious, and the alternativs so silly.
Sure, someone might think that the NT teaches religious violence, but that "conscious thought to a conclusion" deserves to be taken about as seriously as the consciously thought-out conclusion that Jesus was really the guru of a magic mushroom cult.
[code]
[ 19. January 2015, 08:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
I think almost everything everywhere is a matter of interpretation.
I don't believe you.
You just haven't grasped the vast amount of material you unquestioningly accept on a daily basis because you just take it for granted, and never think about it.
What? Now you're making my exact point for me. The whole point is that things you consider obvious = things you take for granted.
I'm not suggesting that everything is a matter of conscious interpretation. Most of it's unconscious and not recognised as such. That is exactly what I've been trying to say. We simply never think about what we take for granted unless and until we encounter someone who doesn't take the same thing for granted.
You claimed that “everything everywhere is a matter of interpretation”.
Most things in our life, most of the time, clearly are not – we don’t even think about them, and we don’t need to.
However, there are some issues which are both imperative to consciously think about, and to which there is a straightforward true/false answer.
Whether or not the NT teaches Christian violence is one of them.
There's something of a logical error there.
If I were looking at it purely in terms of biology and brain function, everything is an interpretation
Also, it's only because we inhabit a culture that has a predilection to aristotelean logic that we fall into looking for clear yes/no answers
finally, it's not so-called rational logic (as the word is understood in 21st century culture) that can absolutely state that the NT is totally anti-violence. But rather it's the old version of rationality in which the heart has as much (if not more) say than the brain.
I'm not particularly disagreeing that the NT is against violence, but the path to that statement cannot be couched in terms of simplistic logic. This is one of the problems of modern interpretation - the heart part of rationality has been flushed down the plug hole, and after that it's all downhill on an increasingly slippery slope.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Conscious thought lasting a squillionth of a second because the answers to them are so obvious, and the alternativs so silly.
Is that your position on Islam and violence?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:.
The other thing that seems to be happening is secularization, by which I mean Muslims not going to mosque. Thus, it's said that in France, about two thirds of Muslims don't; of course, they may still be devout, I suppose.
Anecdata – but I think this probably describes most of my Muslim colleagues. To my knowledge, not one of them ever sets foot inside a mosque. However, they do all fast for Ramadan.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Nothing is obvious, Kaplan.
I'm finding that out the hard way in interacting with my increasingly senile mother in law.
Just because thee or me take certain things for granted doesn't mean that they are obvious.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Anyway, whether the NT sanctions violence or not (and I believe it doesn't) isn't the point at issue here.
The point is whether Islam is inherently violent.
Kaplan Corday says that he isn't suggesting that it is, but always comes back to a comparison between the Quran and the NT - saying that the NT doesn't promote the notion of religious violence but the Quran does ...
I might be dim, but I can't see much difference between this and asserting that Islam is inherently violent.
I'm sorry, but throughout this thread I've got the impression that Kaplan is going, 'Nurh nuh na-nah-na ... your holy scriptures justify religious violence but ours don't ...'
Which doesn't get us very far.
I'm not sure direct comparisons between the NT and the Quran are particularly helpful. We can draw parallels and indicate points of difference in the way the two texts are used or interpreted etc etc ... but we're not necessarily comparing like with like.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I have a new (or refreshed) working theory which is that legalism, unchecked, can end up being violent.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Interesting item in today's Times about the report into the Muslim Brotherhood that should have been published last year "at the latest".
All the evidence points to huge embarrassment in HMG that the report's conclusions will indeed be what many foreign governments have been trying to tell Whitehall for years: that London is indeed the central hub for MB and for years has acted as a clearing-house for various terrorist groups to make links with other like-minded organisations banned in the middle east.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Sure, someone might think that the NT teaches religious violence, but that "conscious thought to a conclusion" deserves to be taken about as seriously as the consciously thought-out conclusion that Jesus was really the guru of a magic mushroom cult.
You don't seem to grasp that the issue isn't whether we take the conclusion itself seriously.
I don't have to take seriously that James Eagan Holmes is the Joker incarnate. But James Eagan Holmes appeared to take it sufficiently seriously to arm himself, go to a Batman screening and kill 12 people.
It feels like you would have stood there in the cinema saying to people "don't worry, this can't be happening because his reasoning process is stupid".
The fact that you think someone's conclusion is idiotic does not, in fact, stop them from reaching their conclusion. It's perfectly possible for someone to conclude the NT doesn't justify violence despite your rock-solid conviction that it doesn't.
Your entire argument appears to consist of "I'm a sane person, and I would never think that, so no sane person could think that". Which would be all very well, if only the world consisted entirely of these 'sane' people you're so sure about.
The original point of this line of argument was that it would be perfectly possible for the vast majority of the world's Muslims to conclude that the Quran doesn't justify violent terrorism, but this wouldn't stop a small proportion from concluding that it does. Which is why it is erroneous to work back the other way, and use the existence of a small proportion of violent terrorists as conclusive evidence that the violent terrorists are reaching the 'correct' interpretation of Islam.
[ 19. January 2015, 11:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It would also be bizarre to suggest that violent extremists are violent because they have read the Koran. Or, for that matter, that violent Christian militias have simply read the Bible.
This just leaves out the whole social, economic, and political contexts in which violence arises. Should we say that Western violence arises out of reading international law books on just wars?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Interesting item in today's Times about the report into the Muslim Brotherhood that should have been published last year "at the latest".
All the evidence points to huge embarrassment in HMG that the report's conclusions will indeed be what many foreign governments have been trying to tell Whitehall for years: that London is indeed the central hub for MB and for years has acted as a clearing-house for various terrorist groups to make links with other like-minded organisations banned in the middle east.
There was an article in the Financial Times about this back in August (sorry, link's failed) The government has asked an enquiry to decide whether the Muslim Brotherhood should be designated a terrorist organisation, it looked likely that the enquiry would say "no", and that would have made us unpopular with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Emirates, who are all busy killing members of the MB.
The current hot story is another intemperate letter from Eric Pickles demanding that Muslims speak out even more strongly. Notably Britain's Chief Rabbi understands why Muslims feel frustrated at the moment, while a Muslim spokesman states that radicalisation is more likely to take place on the internet than in mosques.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:.
The other thing that seems to be happening is secularization, by which I mean Muslims not going to mosque. Thus, it's said that in France, about two thirds of Muslims don't; of course, they may still be devout, I suppose.
Anecdata – but I think this probably describes most of my Muslim colleagues. To my knowledge, not one of them ever sets foot inside a mosque. However, they do all fast for Ramadan.
My observation as well, although I'm not really sure how to interpret it. You would think that this might be the start of secularization, especially among the young. As I was saying, maybe then the best hope is simply that Islam becomes irrelevant, as Christianity has. It might take a long time, of course.
But there is then the sobering thought, that humans will not become less violent, even if religion mainly disappears, since I don't think the causes of violence are religious. I suppose it will be one less identity to fight over, but there are plenty of others.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This ...
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It would also be bizarre to suggest that violent extremists are violent because they have read the Koran. Or, for that matter, that violent Christian militias have simply read the Bible.
This just leaves out the whole social, economic, and political contexts in which violence arises. Should we say that Western violence arises out of reading international law books on just wars?
It also leaves out (or underplays) the complex web of social networks, tradition, culture, history, personal characteristics and disposition and a whole range of other stuff which accompanies us when we deal with texts ... be they religious ones or any other kind.
I keep making the obvious point that none of us approach scripture (or any other text) in a vacuum and I get accused of post-modernism for saying so ...
We can have a high view of the authoritativeness of scripture and still accept that we interpret it through a whole set of lenses and filters.
There is no such thing as neutral.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:.
The other thing that seems to be happening is secularization, by which I mean Muslims not going to mosque. Thus, it's said that in France, about two thirds of Muslims don't; of course, they may still be devout, I suppose.
Anecdata – but I think this probably describes most of my Muslim colleagues. To my knowledge, not one of them ever sets foot inside a mosque. However, they do all fast for Ramadan.
I don't even have any anecdata, just two points.
#1 - Friday is a regular working day in the Western world. My dentist, a Muslim, closes his practice on Fridays (and works alternate
Saturdays) but it's unlikely that the majority of working Muslims can get Friday off on a regular basis. (And I have no idea what he does on Fridays - for all I know, he golfs.)
#2 - AIUI, the rules for women attending mosque are slightly different, which means at least half of Muslims may not be expected to go every Friday.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It doesn't. Unequivocally.
It is. Unequivocally.
And there's no point saying that to 'them'. Only responding with the former to the latter.
No help there from Francis.
[ 20. January 2015, 07:17: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
it is erroneous to work back the other way, and use the existence of a small proportion of violent terrorists as conclusive evidence that the violent terrorists are reaching the 'correct' interpretation of Islam.
Which is not what I have done.
What I have argued is that the "small proportion of violent terrorists" have adopted one possible interpretation of the Koran, and that the majority of Muslims either ignore this interpretation for various reasons, or genuinely believe it to be wrong.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Which I expect many people would agree with. The question for me is how we go from there to a statement on inherent violence (or inherent anything). Isn't what you have just said a sufficient statement of the problem without pushing further into areas that are difficult to define?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
The "religion of peace" violent?
Yes... for the moment.
At some point though there will be an outrage that forces the west into more drastic measures to reduce the risk they represent. Anyone want to take bets that sometime, somewhere a politician will be elected on the strength of asking if Germany still has any Zyklon B showers left over?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Anyone want to take bets that sometime, somewhere a politician will be elected on the strength of asking if Germany still has any Zyklon B showers left over?
You're not actually Al Murray are you, Deano?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The "religion of peace" violent?
Yes... for the moment.
At some point though there will be an outrage that forces the west into more drastic measures to reduce the risk they represent. Anyone want to take bets that sometime, somewhere a politician will be elected on the strength of asking if Germany still has any Zyklon B showers left over?
Are you familiar with Britain First Deano? They seem to be about where you are politically. Fortunately they're seen as loony cockwombles by the vast majority.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
So you don't believe that a politician won't ever be voted in on the strength of taking such measures?
The heads are exactly where they were inserted the last time I was around here aren't they.
Nothing changes.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Only if people start believing the bullshit you and BF try to promote, Deano.
How many muslims are there in Chesterfield? How many of them have threatened you in the name of Islam?
Surely it's a significant proportion, if they're so inherently violent?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The "religion of peace" violent?
Yes... for the moment.
At some point though there will be an outrage that forces the west into more drastic measures to reduce the risk they represent. Anyone want to take bets that sometime, somewhere a politician will be elected on the strength of asking if Germany still has any Zyklon B showers left over?
Are you familiar with Britain First Deano? They seem to be about where you are politically. Fortunately they're seen as loony cockwombles by the vast majority.
On social media Britain First has built up quite a following using populist posts on topics like child abuse, cruelty to animals and war veterans' welfare to garner support. By nailing their colours to those masts they hope to broaden their support: on the basis of some who have 'liked' their posts, they have had some success.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Only if people start believing the bullshit you and BF try to promote, Deano.
How many muslims are there in Chesterfield? How many of them have threatened you in the name of Islam?
Surely it's a significant proportion, if they're so inherently violent?
How many Jews worked in banking in 1930's Germany?
At some point will it cease to matter how many are peaceful if the attacks on the west keep coming and keep getting reported on?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Only if people start believing the bullshit you and BF try to promote, Deano.
How many muslims are there in Chesterfield? How many of them have threatened you in the name of Islam?
Surely it's a significant proportion, if they're so inherently violent?
How many Jews worked in banking in 1930's Germany?
"Too many"
quote:
At some point will it cease to matter how many are peaceful if the attacks on the west keep coming and keep getting reported on?
So long as "The West" (whatever that is) continues to concentrate its attention on the ideologies behind terrorism rather than terrorist groups, governments will have a convenient excuse for their own shortcomings.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
So long as "The West" (whatever that is) continues to concentrate its attention on the ideologies behind terrorism rather than terrorist groups, governments will have a convenient excuse for their own shortcomings.
Huh? So you mean cure the symptom rather than the cause?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
it is erroneous to work back the other way, and use the existence of a small proportion of violent terrorists as conclusive evidence that the violent terrorists are reaching the 'correct' interpretation of Islam.
Which is not what I have done.
What I have argued is that the "small proportion of violent terrorists" have adopted one possible interpretation of the Koran, and that the majority of Muslims either ignore this interpretation for various reasons, or genuinely believe it to be wrong.
Yes - I'd agree that is the case. Which makes a policy of marginalising moslems "because they are potentisal terrorists" incredibly stupid, because the vast majority can also decide to act like they are expected to behave. A basic principle of human behaviour - people will generally rise (or fall) to the level of behaviour that is expected of/projected onto them. Interesting (and totally immoral) experiments with school classes demonstrated this very clearly.
[ 20. January 2015, 12:09: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Yeah, I've noticed that muslims are queuing up at the local police stations to shop the local jihadis.
Oh, no hang on... I haven't.
Let's see, it's now been over thirteen years since 9/11 and the muslim community is still not obviously standing up to the jihadis in their midst.
Sorry, the muslim community is not fostering warm feelings of trust in my heart.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yeah, I've noticed that muslims are queuing up at the local police stations to shop the local jihadis.
Oh, no hang on... I haven't.
Let's see, it's now been over thirteen years since 9/11 and the muslim community is still not obviously standing up to the jihadis in their midst.
In the same 13 years how well has the militarily powerful West managed against terrorism?
The huge proportion of white, Christian, British people aren't doing much about racists either. They might not like racism and probably aren't racists, but do they actually do anything?
quote:
Sorry, the muslim community is not fostering warm feelings of trust in my heart.
What would they have to do to achieve that?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yeah, I've noticed that muslims are queuing up at the local police stations to shop the local jihadis.
Oh, no hang on... I haven't.
Let's see, it's now been over thirteen years since 9/11 and the muslim community is still not obviously standing up to the jihadis in their midst.
Sorry, the muslim community is not fostering warm feelings of trust in my heart.
I care far more about fostering feelings of trust in British Muslims' hearts. Feelings which are 'betrayed' by the system you want them to trust.
Also, how many EDL thugs have you shopped to the bizzies recently? They come from your community, after all.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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3M Matt
Shipmate
# 1675
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Posted
Is Islam inherently violent?
The bigger question is what is Islam? I don't have a clue. It's like trying to nail jelly to a wall.
Go look at a Quran. The chapters are arranged in order of length. Why? Because there is no more logical order to arrange the material...its a jumble of half written stories and quotes without context.
There is some horrifically violent material in the Quran. There is also some more tolerant stuff.
There is an argument which says the supposedly later revelations superceded the earlier ones. In most cases this would mean the the more violent verses superceded the more peaceful ones.
But not everyone agrees with that. Therein lies the problem. There are disagreements about how to interpret the Bible, but at least we have frameworks of how to approach understanding it. and the Bible sits within a historical context.
None of that is true of the Quran. It is a collection of text which has no context of its own, and sits in a historical void.
Should it be interpreted peacefully or violently? Well, there just isn't a meaningful way to perform exegesis on the Quran.
Perhaps the only guide is to look at how the early followers of Islam, and Mohammed himself, behaved.. That might give a clue.
The problem with that is that the earliest writings about Mohammed and his life date from 200 years after his death.
Some record him being peaceful, some record him being incredibly violent...radical and moderate Islamic scholars will simply cherry pick whichever suits their ends...and dismiss those that don't fit their view.
When Western politicians say that the radicals are "twisting" Islam they are wrong.
There are violent and non violent interpretations of Islam, but it's ancient documents, it's history and it's theology are all so haphazard and unsystematic that it's hard to call any one interpretation of Islam correct or incorrect.
P.s. See Tom Hollands book "in the shadow of the sword" for more on the hazy origins of Islam.
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3M Matt.
Posts: 1227 | From: London | Registered: Nov 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Sorry, the muslim community is not fostering warm feelings of trust in my heart.
What would they have to do to achieve that?
Hmm. More of them standing up in courtrooms saying "Yes your honour, I heard them plotting to..." would be a good start.
And also giving the mouth-breathing idiots in their own communities a good shoeing.
Stop putting up "no whites" signs in certain parts of towns and cities.
Quite a few things could be done really.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
And where are these signs of which you write? On Faux News?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Anyone want to take bets that sometime, somewhere a politician will be elected on the strength of asking if Germany still has any Zyklon B showers left over?
You know the answer to both parts of that suggestion, deano. And perhaps you'd also like to refrain from suggesting the Germans are inherently murderously antisemitic? Because that's what you're implying.
quote:
Yeah, I've noticed that muslims are queuing up at the local police stations to shop the local jihadis.
Oh, no hang on... I haven't.
Maybe jihadis aren't that plentiful. And perhaps those that there are have become good at hiding from people who might shop them? I'd think that would be a top survival skill for a would-be terrorist.
quote:
Stop putting up "no whites" signs in certain parts of towns and cities.
Such as where? Get me evidence from a reliable source (ie not Stormfront). I'll wait.
t
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Little devil
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
FFS, Deano, there have been well-reported cases of teenage and 20-something jihadis whose own families hadn't a Scooby until they disappeared one day only to reappear a few weeks later in one of Jihadi John's latest Youtube offerings. How the hell are they meant to shop someone they themselves don't know is going to turn rogue?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Even if the occasional such sign has been observed (and there are idiots everywhere), how can the 99.9% of Muslims who don't put up such signs stop doing so when they already don't? Does Deano require that the outlying 0.1% of the Muslim population do everything he asks before he has any confidence in the other 99.9%?
This is like assuming that all football fans are hooligans until such time as there is never a single fight or act of vandalism connected with a football match.
[ 20. January 2015, 15:58: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I should add that I find the "good shoeing" remark amusing. I mean, if kicking the shit out of someone because you disapprove of their views doesn't teach them that violence is not an acceptable way to deal with opposing views, then nothing will...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So deano, assuming all that is one thousand and ten per cent true, how are you part of Jesus' solution?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
More of them standing up in courtrooms saying "Yes your honour, I heard them plotting to..." would be a good start.
Yes, because we all know that plots are invariably hatched in full view of all nearby Muslims, the concept of privacy being alien to that culture.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
3M Matt, don't want to select a quote from what you wrote, but just want to say it is one of the most sensible posts I have seen on this thread yet, and I hope everybody scrolls back to read it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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