|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Islam and violence
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
The entrapment of adolescents is not a new thing and the techniques (appeal to idealism, pandering to resentments, romantic appeal, utopian prospects, use of peer group members) are well known. Some will fall for it. The truth is a moving target in adolescence; the tendencies to discount family advice, keep secrets, explore making up one's own mind, are also well known.
I feel for those families, who must be worried to death about what has happened, and what will happen, to their daughters. I do not think this story (or similar ones) tells us anything specific about the religion of Islam. It may teach us something more general about the potential for young people to be deceived by "glittery" blandishments, and the means of deception used by cults of various kinds.
Entrapment is a subject worth teaching and discussing in schools, in whatever civics courses are available these days. I wonder if that happens?
A bit of a tangent to the main thread, of course, but possible more constructive than some of the others?
[ 23. February 2015, 10:10: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Entrapment is a subject worth teaching and discussing in schools, in whatever civics courses are available these days. I wonder if that happens?
Not that I'm aware of as a parent of a teenager in the UK school system.
But what would it look like even if it did? What counts as entrapment? It seems to me that could include all kinds of things - from joining a very charismatic or conservative group (of many different types), joining a religious community, leaving family to join the circus..
This whole rubric of Islamism-bad, other religious stuff good seems to me to be utterly flawed.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Mr. Cheesy wrote: quote:
This whole rubric of Islamism-bad, other religious stuff good seems to me to be utterly flawed.
It is, but to be fair I don't get the sense that many (or any?) are peddling that one exactly.
Many of the flaws in argument here on this thread fall into the categories of confusing the general with the particular, or vice versa. I've been around the traps long enough to recognise that those are the quickest ways to derail any argument. People feel they (or others) are getting accused of something they are entirely innocent of, and start to play rough.
Actually, that confusion seems to me to be implicit in the OP itself.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I wasn't talking about this thread though - I was thinking about the wider notion of entrapment teaching in schools, which seems to be solely discussed with reference to Islamists.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
This whole rubric of Islamism-bad, other religious stuff good seems to me to be utterly flawed.
I agree, which is why I'm suggesting that the more general topic of entrapment, its techniques, dangers, and how to recognise it, might be a more constructive approach.
I think a syllabus could be developed. Obviously there is a proper freedom to persuade, to advance causes, encourage group relationship. And equally obviously there are abuses of these freedoms which can confuse and entrap the naive and unwary. How do you tell the difference? What measures of verification make sense? In short, how do young people develop good judgment over these things?
Isn't that a proper educational topic?
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I agree, which is why I'm suggesting that the more general topic of entrapment, its techniques, dangers, and how to recognise it, might be a more constructive approach.
I think a syllabus could be developed. Obviously there is a proper freedom to persuade, to advance causes, encourage group relationship. And equally obviously there are abuses of these freedoms which can confuse and entrap the naive and unwary. How do you tell the difference? What measures of verification make sense? In short, how do young people develop good judgment over these things?
Isn't that a proper educational topic?
Dunno, you tell me. Where is the line between (say) charismatic, energetic religion and dangerous entrapment? Is joining a religious order a form of entrapment?
Who decides?
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
There aren't any lines. What may be just acceptable to me may be strongly unacceptable to you, even if we both give it our best consideration.
I'd love to endorse reason as a final determinant - and of course I still do endorse properly informed reason - but some of the reasoning I've seen about these days would make the angels weep.
I think a habit of critical thinking is the best one can hope for in these circumstances, and part of that criticism must be a regular review of one's own suppositions.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mr cheesy: Dunno, you tell me. Where is the line between (say) charismatic, energetic religion and dangerous entrapment? Is joining a religious order a form of entrapment?
Who decides?
If you set up the kind of Barnabas describes, there is no need to draw the lines right there. Just teach the students to think critically, and hopefully they'll be better able to draw the lines for themselves.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Well, sorry, I don't think that works.
Religious people are not only motivated by logic, because religious faith is not logical.
Of course teenagers understand that it is not logical to leave the safety of family and the UK to heed the call of the Islamists.
There is no reason to imagine these people are stupid, they have just been spoken to in a way that bypasses the normal logical processes and taps into a deeper language of religion.
Teaching religious people to act on a logical basis is like trying to teach a fish to cycle.
[ 23. February 2015, 13:42: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mr cheesy: Teaching religious people to act on a logical basis is like trying to teach a fish to cycle.
Now you're just spouting standard anti-religious crap.
Educational programmes like this won't be the end-all solution. Some children will still be entrapped, sadly. But if they can reduce entrapment a bit, that would be a good thing.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Now you're just spouting standard anti-religious crap.
Hahahaha
Saying religious belief it not logical is crap?
Oh well, bang goes almost all existential philosophy then.
quote:
Educational programmes like this won't be the end-all solution. Some children will still be entrapped, sadly. But if they can reduce entrapment a bit, that would be a good thing.
If there is no understanding about the non-logical nature of religious belief, it will have zero effect.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mr cheesy: Saying religious belief it not logical is crap?
That's not what you were saying.
quote:
mr cheesy: If there is no understanding about the non-logical nature of religious belief, it will have zero effect.
Of course, part of this education can be that there are aspects of belief that aren't guided by logic.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
That's not what you were saying.
It wasn't? Oh right, thanks for telling me.
quote:
Of course, part of this education can be that there are aspects of belief that aren't guided by logic.
What does that mean? Genuinely cannot see what on earth one could teach in a secular school to a Muslim child about the dangers of so-called religious 'entrapment' given there are no accepted norms about what 'entrapment' means.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
It's interesting that this thread has gone off in another direction - entrapment - although I am not critical of that.
'Islam and violence' as a topic, tends to run into the sand, for two good reasons.
One, which is the elephant in the room, is essentialism - the idea that Islam is intrinsically violent. Sometimes people assert this, (maybe some of the atheists do, such as Sam Harris), but I have never seen anybody able to demonstrate it. So it tends to fall by the wayside.
The other problem is that the Middle East has been astonishingly violent for at least 50 years, and probably longer.
In that time, the secularists have been violent against their own people (Assad is still doing it), Western forces have used 'shock and awe', the Islamists have used violence, the national armies obviously have (including the Kurdish forces), the so-called 'moderate' groups have also.
Anyway, to go into that perfect storm, and isolate Islam as a precipitating factor for violence seems a difficult proposition to me. Obviously, humans are violent, and humans in conflict, particularly so. After that, the political and historical analysis of the Middle East becomes bewilderingly complex.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mr cheesy: Genuinely cannot see what on earth one could teach in a secular school to a Muslim child about the dangers of so-called religious 'entrapment' given there are no accepted norms about what 'entrapment' means.
I think we can have a pretty clear definition of what 'entrapment' means without the necessity of drawing the line of which groups practice entrapment and which don't. By focussing on the civil and psychological aspects of it for example.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I think we can have a pretty clear definition of what 'entrapment' means without the necessity of drawing the line of which groups practice entrapment and which don't. By focussing on the civil and psychological aspects of it for example.
So a young woman planning to join a Roman Catholic order - is she being entrapped? Explain how your lesson would help a young person distinguish a genuine religious vocation from a dangerous entrapment.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mr cheesy: So a young woman planning to join a Roman Catholic order - is she being entrapped? Explain how your lesson would help a young person distinguish a genuine religious vocation from a dangerous entrapment.
By focussing on the kind of pressures that have been applied for example. Did you join freely, or did someone pressure you? Is there a charismatic leader that influences you? Can you leave if you want to? Did they take your family's opinion into account? Are they concerned with the person who you are, outside of your faith? (I'm just making some questions up here, a detailed study can come up with better questions.)
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's interesting that this thread has gone off in another direction - entrapment - although I am not critical of that.
'Islam and violence' as a topic, tends to run into the sand, for two good reasons.
One, which is the elephant in the room, is essentialism - the idea that Islam is intrinsically violent. Sometimes people assert this, (maybe some of the atheists do, such as Sam Harris), but I have never seen anybody able to demonstrate it. So it tends to fall by the wayside.
The other problem is that the Middle East has been astonishingly violent for at least 50 years, and probably longer.
In that time, the secularists have been violent against their own people (Assad is still doing it), Western forces have used 'shock and awe', the Islamists have used violence, the national armies obviously have (including the Kurdish forces), the so-called 'moderate' groups have also.
Anyway, to go into that perfect storm, and isolate Islam as a precipitating factor for violence seems a difficult proposition to me. Obviously, humans are violent, and humans in conflict, particularly so. After that, the political and historical analysis of the Middle East becomes bewilderingly complex.
I think that focussing on "entrapment" in this context is veering dangerously close to pre-supposing Islam is inherently violent. We're not there yet, but if I flag it up before we get there, then hopefully it won't happen.
But specifically this bit of your post:- quote:
The other problem is that the Middle East has been astonishingly violent for at least 50 years, and probably longer.
In that time, the secularists have been violent against their own people (Assad is still doing it), Western forces have used 'shock and awe', the Islamists have used violence, the national armies obviously have (including the Kurdish forces), the so-called 'moderate' groups have also.
- highlights perfectly why clinging to reason as a salvation isn't going to work. Every one of them thought that their actions were reasonable. Stalin reasoned that starving Ukraine was reasonable. Hitler reasoned that invading Poland was right. Shout "Rah!" for reason!
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Right, exactly. And talk of 'free choice' obviously becomes nonsense when you are talking about people who are interested in submitting to the will of Allah.
- "so, did you voluntarily submit to Allah or did someone tell you that you had to..."
- "errr..."
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
mr cheesy: Right, exactly. And talk of 'free choice' obviously becomes nonsense when you are talking about people who are interested in submitting to the will of Allah.
- "so, did you voluntarily submit to Allah or did someone tell you that you had to..."
- "errr..."
You seem to have a strange view of how education works. This is not the kind of questions they ask. But having a discussion with teenagers in the classroom about religion and free will can be very fruitful.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
I was just trying out a discussion motif which might avoid the sterile polarisations which have to a large extent characterised this thread. Avoiding the perpetuation of cycles of violence and educating the young about the dangers of getting sucked into the mire (via idealism or alienation or inexperience) seem to me to have something in common.
And, to repeat. I don't think Islam, Judaism or Christianity are intrinsically violent. They reflect to some extent the violent tendencies to be found in human behaviour. Particularly when we perceive we are threatened.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Our texts are. Our history is. But we are not? Riiiight.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
Not intrinsically, no. There is violence - both historical and present, and texts which could be interpreted in a violent way. However, there are also counter texts or ways to interpret violent passages which mean they don't have to be normative or an intrinsic part of a religion.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Our texts are. Our history is. But we are not? Riiiight.
I think I'll join you, Honest Ron.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Something I said? This is very odd. The road we keep travelling, never the same road twice, nonetheless has a dangerous bend in the deconstructed form that is the same for all of us. A bend we built when we were all young and savage. And NONE of us is really, hardly out of the bend.
Some of us enshrine the bend, not its victims. We want to be decent road users, we really do. But the bend was there and it was an awesome bend.
OK, as with all intrusive, captivating thoughts, it's best to get on with something else. Break the spell.
How are we to do that?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Something I said?
Yes. The bend in the road that we're stuck on here is advancing a discussion without a return to blunt and unexplained re-assertions of your general view. It's not going anywhere.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
mr cheesy: So a young woman planning to join a Roman Catholic order - is she being entrapped? Explain how your lesson would help a young person distinguish a genuine religious vocation from a dangerous entrapment.
By focussing on the kind of pressures that have been applied for example. Did you join freely, or did someone pressure you? Is there a charismatic leader that influences you? Can you leave if you want to? Did they take your family's opinion into account? Are they concerned with the person who you are, outside of your faith? (I'm just making some questions up here, a detailed study can come up with better questions.)
... all these points could be applied equally - it's just that as external observers we judge that convent is good, ISIS is bad. You can make a distinction on what the influence will lead to - one hopes that going into a religious order has a good outcome, and one assumes that entering a violent organisation rarely has a happy ending. The process itself is not a lot different. I wonder what the three girls were looking at. Hearing the family's pleas to their daughter to return, I would guess that excitement, lots of virile men, a chance to do something in the real world, and an escape from family dynamics come fairly high up on the list. So maybe motivation is also a way to differentiate. But it's not one that can be policed until after the event.
--------------------
"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
itsarumdo: ... all these points could be applied equally - it's just that as external observers we judge that convent is good, ISIS is bad.
Are you sure? I have quite a lot of contact with Catholic centre here in Brazil which is part of the preparation process for novices around the world, and I have a far more nuanced impression of it.
quote:
itsarumdo: So maybe motivation is also a way to differentiate. But it's not one that can be policed until after the event.
It isn't about policing here, I was talking about some kind of educational programme.
Let me give an example. Here in Brazil, I've worked a lot in educational programmes with young girls, to try to prevent them from falling into prostitution. So, one of the things we need to do is prepare her to make the distinction between Fulano, who is going to be a loving boyfriend to her, and Beltrano, who just pretends to be interested in her in order to force her into prostitution.
What we don't do, is give these girls a checklist, where they just have to cross the answers, and it will give them an unambiguous outcome to distinguish between Fulano and Beltrano. It doesn't work like that.
But questions like the ones I mentioned in my earlier post can be a great discussion starter with young people. Especially if you work on their self-esteem at the same time (there are various methods for doing that), they become much better at critical thinking, and much more resilient against peer pressure.
That's what we want, that when she meets a Beltrano, she's much better prepared. That doesn't mean it's the end-all solution (we still need to put Beltrano in jail if he does something bad), but results have shown that this can help a lot to keep girls out of prostitution.
I'm thinking about the same thing when it comes to educational programmes to prepare teenagers against entrapment (which really is the same process). The issue isn't to provide a 100% fail-safe dividing line between good and bad influences. The issue is to provide them with the tools so that they won't fall for the tricks, and can ultimately make the decision for themselves.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Assertions of the blindingly obvious that I can't see for you?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
|
Posted
Ah - LeRoc - if you're talking self esteem education, it's a different matter entirely.
That sounds really satisfying work you do - I read Paolo Friere about 25 years ago, and I think it's still something of an influence today in my own work.
--------------------
"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
A couple of interesting links.
--Theocracies take many forms. Some Republican officials want to declare Idaho a Christian state.
-- "Muslims Predict Jesus Will Defeat ISIS In 2015"--Huffpost. The author, Dr. David Liepert, is a Muslim leader from Canada. Really good article, basically saying that mainstream Muslim eschatology is widely thought to be kicking in, and ISIS is on the wrong side. Towards the end, he talks about Muslim and Christian ideas about Jesus. Then:
quote:
Can anyone conceive that that person --or Person-- when he --or He-- descends to lead us, could conceivably countenance the despicable and deplorable acts of ISIS?
God Forbid, it could never happen, not even if the world ends tomorrow or lasts for another thousand years.
Bottom line, I have served God and loved Jesus my entire life, and I followed Jesus into Islam when I realized I became a worse man by worshipping Him and a better man by following him. And my greatest hope for today is that Muslims and Christians are all starting to look forward to his return, because regardless of when that happens his example and his words can guide all of us to a better place together, with the help of God.
Because regardless of what the next years bring or which faith we follow, we are all waking up and realizing that we all need Jesus, peace be upon him.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
One strange and ironic aspect of the 'intrinsic violence' argument about Islam, is that Al Qaeda and IS would probably agree. They tend to denounce non-violent Muslims as apostates, and it's quite likely that Muslims are the largest group of victims of their violence.
No doubt they can cite quotations from the Koran which back up this view, although they presumably ignore other parts, which do not.
It leads one to think that there is no such thing as Islam, but a number of different Islams, as with Christianities. To say that one is 'true Islam' seems to lead to a No True Scotsman (informal) fallacy.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Anonymous quote I read, long ago, in a Buddhist context:
A thousand monks, a thousand religions.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
A couple of interesting links.
--Theocracies take many forms. Some Republican officials want to declare Idaho a Christian state.
-- "Muslims Predict Jesus Will Defeat ISIS In 2015"--Huffpost. The author, Dr. David Liepert, is a Muslim leader from Canada. Really good article, basically saying that mainstream Muslim eschatology is widely thought to be kicking in, and ISIS is on the wrong side. Towards the end, he talks about Muslim and Christian ideas about Jesus. Then:
quote:
Can anyone conceive that that person --or Person-- when he --or He-- descends to lead us, could conceivably countenance the despicable and deplorable acts of ISIS?
God Forbid, it could never happen, not even if the world ends tomorrow or lasts for another thousand years.
Bottom line, I have served God and loved Jesus my entire life, and I followed Jesus into Islam when I realized I became a worse man by worshipping Him and a better man by following him. And my greatest hope for today is that Muslims and Christians are all starting to look forward to his return, because regardless of when that happens his example and his words can guide all of us to a better place together, with the help of God.
Because regardless of what the next years bring or which faith we follow, we are all waking up and realizing that we all need Jesus, peace be upon him.
Thankyou for that
--------------------
"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
I'm mystified, I really am. We are the most effective predator the Earth has ever seen. We are the best hunter to which the domestic cat comes second. We and all our works are soused in violence. It peaks at the age of TWO. Islam is no worse than many of our other works of that scale. Religions, cultures, civilizations, societies. And we are nurturing and altruistic and decent and merciful in no less measure than our violence.
So what should we do? Pretend that we're not violent? Intrinsically, at the drop of a hat violent? Any excuse violent? Or worse, even believe it? That our veneer of the oxymoron of 'civilization' - achieved by violence - is soul deep?
Or, like Jesus, embrace it, acknowledge it and transcend it. See it and raise it as a poker hand with our lives on the table?
I imagine, at best, Islam will mellow, secularize, become more humanistic as Christianity has despite its equally nasty violent beliefs, still believed incoherently by the vast majority, So I take comfort from that.
Christianity's failure to live up to it's founder's example from the word (Peter's, Paul's, John's) go has created a ghastly history of violence and a civilization full of institutionalized, acceptable, respectable violence - often the same violence, ghastly and respectable. I suspect Islam will do BETTER than that in Western societies, despite its foundational violence, it's holy, pure, true, perfect, righteous, redeeming violence, which Judaism and Christianity enshrined before it.
And perhaps because of it. Because violence is foundational explicitly in Islam, as it was in Judaism two and a half thousand years before it, that has to be wrestled with more openly than Christianity's almost instant slide in to having its cake and eat it. Maybe there's self-interested wisdom in that even, being pacifist and defending the state's right to violence.
It seems close to what Jesus did after all, more than once. But without His courage.
Ah well. We'll muddle through I'm sure. Like the Jews. Through de facto pacifism to irrelevance.
[ 25. February 2015, 23:14: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
|
Posted
I think that you are making quite a few confusions there, Martin - one of them being equating predators with random mindless and vindictive violence. Take a look at this documentary about Anna Breytenbach - particularly the interviews with bushmen hunters - there is clearly a loving empathy between the hunter an the prey. And although the act of death is violent, the spirit it is in is also one of love. We have a very sentimentalised view of nature and what it means to take part in it, partly because our society has removed most of us from the pointy end.
--------------------
"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
No confusion here mate. 1 in 30 of us is a psychopath. Why does evolution select for that?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
It's probably nearer 1 in 100. 3% is usually the figure given for the incidence of psychopathy in positions of leadership.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Indeed. I sit corrected. Although the fact that it's 3% in leadership and around 1% for the rest of us is still evolutionarily fascinating.
We LET them.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Maybe we should all look at the results of the ComRes polling undertaken on behalf of the BBC into Muslim attitudes: some of it makes sobering reading, for example:- 20% felt Western liberal society couldn't be compatible with Islam [7%/ 1%]
- only 55% felt the Muslim Council of Britain does a good job representing the views of Muslims [16%/ 1%]
- 11% felt that organisations which published images of Mohammed deserved to be attacked [3%/ 1%]
- 62% had some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo [8%/ 2%]
- 32% weren't surprised the Paris attacks happened [5%/ 0%]
- 17% feel it is appropriate that muslims who convert to other faiths are cut-off by their family [5%/ 1%]
- 31% would like their children to go to a muslim state school if they had the choice [3%/ 0%]
- 11% felt sympathetic towards people who want to fight against western interests [3%/ 1%]
- 49% thought that muslim clerics who preach that violence against the west can be justified are out of touch with mainstream muslim opinion [6%/ 1%]
* figures in brackets [don't know/ refused to answer]
In particular, I find it very disturbing that less than 50% of the sample thought that preaching in favour of or promoting violence against the west was out of touch with mainstream muslim opinion, especially given that more than 10% felt sympathetic towards people who want to fight against western interests.
Food for thought for us all.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
L'Organist--
Link, please! And what are the numbers after each result? I'm guessing the last in each pair is margin for error?
Thanks. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Last in each paid - I assume you mean the figures in square brackets?
As I explained [don't know% / % who refused to answer].
I just put BBC ComRes poll into my search engine and there it was - with a link button onto the full survey results.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Sorry, I missed that bit.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
|
Posted
Reminds me of the rivalry between Lancashire and Yorkshire that still exists - based on a nasty little war 600 years ago.
--------------------
"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
It is food for thought, but that 62% sympathetic to Charlie attacks, should be 27%, I think.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It is food for thought, but that 62% sympathetic to Charlie attacks, should be 27%, I think.
Whatever the percentage, it represents those that are sympathetic to the motives behind the attacks. That isn't the same as those who would line up, shoulder to shoulder, with those who murdered the staff and others at the Charlie Hebdo offices.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Sioni Sais: Whatever the percentage, it represents those that are sympathetic to the motives behind the attacks. That isn't the same as those who would line up, shoulder to shoulder, with those who murdered the staff and others at the Charlie Hebdo offices.
Here in Brazil, Islam is far removed from the reality of most people. They don't have the almost daily contact with Muslims that people in most other Western countries have. What I'm mostly hearing in Brazil is "I don't condone the violence, but they had it coming". If you'd ask this poll question in Brazil, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd come up with 62% too.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
Forgive me if this has been touched on before, I haven't waded through this thread, but it seems to fit in here. On yesterday's story on the identity of a terrorist the BBC TV coverage showed a man who told us what a lovely boy this was, and blamed us the dreadful British for driving this wonderful young man into joining the people who hate us.
Today, we're gazing at our security services and government, as if it could really be all our fault after all, nothing to do with internet grooming or incitement to hatred.
Is it only in Britain where not only would we show such a ludicrous interview, but take any of it seriously? I like it that we're always looking to ourselves to try to meet people half way, but surely at some point we must realise that sometimes others are not doing the same. When there's no more leeway, we either have to stand up for ourselves or allow ourselves to be trampled upon.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
