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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Islam and violence
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Today, we're gazing at our security services and government, as if it could really be all our fault after all, nothing to do with internet grooming or incitement to hatred.
Is it only in Britain where not only would we show such a ludicrous interview, but take any of it seriously?
Well, in this particular case neither of the security services involved would comment - so the vacuum was filled by the group Cage and a particular interview dominated a news cycle - that's the nature of rolling news coverage.
I can find articles in all the major papers poking holes in that interview, so not sure where you get the idea that the interview per se is being taken seriously.
At the moment there is a general feeling that the PTB and the security services in particular are bungling (which is probably in most cases unfair) and unaccountable (which may have a certain amount of truth to it), so it's not surprising that some news stories will take that angle.
I don't see general support for the proposition that MI5 'caused' 'Jihadi John'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Maybe we should all look at the results of the ComRes polling undertaken on behalf of the BBC into Muslim attitudes: some of it makes sobering reading, for example:- 20% felt Western liberal society couldn't be compatible with Islam [7%/ 1%]
- only 55% felt the Muslim Council of Britain does a good job representing the views of Muslims [16%/ 1%]
- 11% felt that organisations which published images of Mohammed deserved to be attacked [3%/ 1%]
- 62% had some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks on Charlie Hebdo [8%/ 2%]
- 32% weren't surprised the Paris attacks happened [5%/ 0%]
- 17% feel it is appropriate that muslims who convert to other faiths are cut-off by their family [5%/ 1%]
- 31% would like their children to go to a muslim state school if they had the choice [3%/ 0%]
- 11% felt sympathetic towards people who want to fight against western interests [3%/ 1%]
- 49% thought that muslim clerics who preach that violence against the west can be justified are out of touch with mainstream muslim opinion [6%/ 1%]
* figures in brackets [don't know/ refused to answer]
In particular, I find it very disturbing that less than 50% of the sample thought that preaching in favour of or promoting violence against the west was out of touch with mainstream muslim opinion, especially given that more than 10% felt sympathetic towards people who want to fight against western interests.
Food for thought for us all.
It'd be really nice if occasionally things were reported by saying things like "80% of Muslims think Western liberal society is compatible with Islam" and "89% don't think organisations which publish images of Mohammed deserve to be attacked".
Or "83% of Muslims don't think it's appropriate to cut off a person who converts to another faith".
It's actually not that common to see numbers THAT high in opinion polls. So why aren't we reporting that the vast majority of Muslims have those views? Oh that's right, because it's usually far juicier to emphasise any view that "we", the average person (ie non-Muslim) might find disconcerting.
[ 27. February 2015, 12:39: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I wonder how many Christians think that liberal Western society is compatible with Christianity.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I don't think that many people would say that MI5 'caused' Jihadi John. But the idea of blowback has been discussed extensively in relation to the Middle East, and elsewhere. The relative effects of a whole number of factors are very difficult to establish - for example, how much damage was done to the social fabric by the old secularist regimes? I don't know.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think that many people would say that MI5 'caused' Jihadi John. But the idea of blowback has been discussed extensively in relation to the Middle East, and elsewhere.
Of course, but I was responding to Raptor's specific post, and he wasn't positing things via the framework of 'blowback' neither was Cage (other than in a highly simplistic manner).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I wonder how many Christians think that liberal Western society is compatible with Christianity.
That would be a very interesting poll. Very interesting indeed.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I wonder how many Christians think that liberal Western society is compatible with Christianity.
That would be a very interesting poll. Very interesting indeed.
Useless. All we would get would be an awful lot of people, pointing fingers and declaring that this, that or the other is or is not real Christianity.
Then again, given the debate about what Islam is, it could shake not a few people out of their self-congratulatory slumber.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
One common argument is that just as Christianity went through the Reformation and the Enlightenment, Islam needs something similar.
Well, possibly, but arguably Christianity became largely irrelevant in the process. There are signs of secularization among Muslims.
Also, it would be a bad idea for the West to engineer an Islamic Reformation - blowback haunts us.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I think I'd be even more interested to see the reasons. For instance, for those of us who are liberal Christians and said no, the reasons might be very different from those a conservative Christian would give.
And of course the same arguments might apply to Muslims but all we have is the poll.
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
All we would get would be an awful lot of people, pointing fingers and declaring that this, that or the other is or is not real Christianity.
The parallels keep on growing.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Ha! And I was accused of being an apologist for murderers some time ago. Yes - there is some sympathy, but
a) God is big enough to take care of Himself
b) breaking a fundamental tenet of a religion (thou shalt not kill - I assume that the OT is also a holy book for Islam as well as Christianity and Judaism) is perhaps not the best way to register disapproval of people who despise your beliefs
c) all this mockery an the violence that surrounds it is evil - the best way to deal with evil is to look to the good/God rather than becoming fixated by the evil and therefore becoming part of it.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A lovely false dichotomy. All things are true. What the lawyer said (he HAS to be a lawyer) about Emwazi and the insane, causeless, obscene innocent, contingent, evil reality of him which NOTHING to do with UK society or MI5.
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Love wins
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Mdijon quote:
I wonder how many Christians think that liberal Western society is compatible with Christianity.
Might I suggest that this is the wrong question in that Christian attitudes towards any state have been less whether any particular state is compatible with Christianity but whether any particular state is prepared to tolerate Christianity within its confines? It could, therefore, be argued that no state is compatible with Christianity but some states are more tolerant of Christianity than others.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Bugger ... , ... is
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Love wins
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
A lovely false dichotomy. All things are true. What the lawyer said (he HAS to be a lawyer) about Emwazi and the insane, causeless, obscene innocent, contingent, evil reality of him which NOTHING to do with UK society or MI5.
You have been called to Hell for persistently posting <hellish content deleted>.
Cheers
Sioni
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Might I suggest that this is the wrong question in that Christian attitudes towards any state have been less whether any particular state is compatible with Christianity but whether any particular state is prepared to tolerate Christianity within its confines?
I would imagine some Muslims would have reasons as to why the questions in the poll weren't the right questions also. Yet those were the questions and here we have the blunt percentages.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Chums. Sorry for the alcohol exacerbated gnomic wossname:
Raptor Eye said:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Forgive me if this has been touched on before, I haven't waded through this thread, but it seems to fit in here. On yesterday's story on the identity of a terrorist the BBC TV coverage showed a man who told us what a lovely boy this was, and blamed us the dreadful British for driving this wonderful young man into joining the people who hate us.
Today, we're gazing at our security services and government, as if it could really be all our fault after all, nothing to do with internet grooming or incitement to hatred.
Is it only in Britain where not only would we show such a ludicrous interview, but take any of it seriously? I like it that we're always looking to ourselves to try to meet people half way, but surely at some point we must realise that sometimes others are not doing the same. When there's no more leeway, we either have to stand up for ourselves or allow ourselves to be trampled upon.
I said:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
A lovely false dichotomy. All things are true. What the lawyer said (he HAS to be a lawyer) about Emwazi and the insane, causeless, obscene innocent, contingent, evil reality of him which NOTHING to do with UK society or MI5.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Bugger ... , ... is
I can't establish that Asim Qureshi is a qualified lawyer, but he is a CAGE advocate.
I was reacting to Raptor Eye's Daily Mail inspired paranoid post by embracing all the real extremes, epitomized by Emwazi, which is what I'm trying to do on this thread and failing.
Whereas others here, mdijon in particular, seem to be engaged in denying the polarized realities.
Which, Sir, is an open challenge to do your worst. I.e. best ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Love wins
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
What are polarized realities? People make decisions to be polarized or polarizing or not. I decide not to. Others decide to. These are just choices, not realities.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
postted by Chris Stiles quote:
At the moment there is a general feeling that the PTB and the security services in particular are bungling (which is probably in most cases unfair) and unaccountable (which may have a certain amount of truth to it), so it's not surprising that some news stories will take that angle.
1. "PTB" - meaning what?
2. I don't think there is a feeling that they're bungling: I think there is concern that it is so hard for them to keep an eye on terror suspects, particularly since the much-reviled control orders were discontinued.
3. It is very easy for organisations - News providers and others - to pour contempt on the police and MI5: it would be better if they came up with sensible suggestions as to how they think things could be done to prevent people like Mr Emwazi (a) deciding to try to join a terrorist organisation, and (b) having done so, decided to be filmed beheading someone and boasting about the fact.
CAGE as an organisation seems to have been able to persuade various charities - the Joseph Rowntree Trust, the Roddick Foundation and Amnesty International are three - to give them grants so that they can spread their poisonous message.
The support from Amnesty caused Gita Saghal, until then the head of Amnesty's gender unit, to leave the organisation: Saghal described CAGE as a 'jihadi organisation' and was particularly scathing of the casuistry employed by some people at Amnesty to justify links with the organisation and Moazzam Begg, its founder.
It is unfortunate but trying to give organisations such as CAGE the benefit of the doubt - whether from genuine belief in their innocence or because of a liberal tendency to defend those who would seek to destroy us - doesn't result in them deciding there is something good to be said for Western values, rather it just confirms their belief in the moral bankruptcy of those beliefs.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
mdijon. The story of the person of Emwazi is one of impossible extremes, polar realities, a lovely angry evil kind sick sadistic sweet ruthless murderous merciless killer. I accept that that is true of him. It works for me.
That symbolizes, caricatures the religions of the people of the Book to me. To deny their violence is absurd. To deny their peace is absurd too. We are an empathic super predator. We couldn't be the one without the other evolutionarily.
So, that's a given for me.
I've progressed my thinking thanks to this thread, at the thread's expense I'm sure: that Jesus' threats fit with His use of violent parables and hyperbole. That violence is as violence does and He didn't nor teach it.
And I see that Christianity has had a problematic attitude to violence, regardless that one can resolve the difficulties of Jesus' words of violence, immediately the baton was passed, although it took a couple or three centuries for that violence to go from passive to active.
This compares with Islam somewhat, although its founder was violent almost from the beginning and got more so. His successors too. That is the sharp bend in the road in that superb link HRB posted upstream*. Christianity has a similar, less acute bend which nonetheless has warped its trajectory very badly.
So acknowledging we all have the myth of redemptive violence in common and where do we go from here? And I see Jesus' peerless example in the woman caught in adultery. Acknowledge, respect, embrace it and transcend it IMMEDIATELY.
Pretending it isn't there is ... useless, pathetic, weak for all concerned.
We need strong benevolence in dealing with this. Not denial in weak benevolence. That just empowers weak (like Raptor Eye's) and strong - Muslim AND Christian - hostility.
*
[ 28. February 2015, 15:02: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Strong benevolence may be perceived as weak hostility, Martin, depending on our own standpoint.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I see nothing but strong benevolence in Jesus in the woman taken in adultery. I don't see how acknowledging pious violence is hostile.
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Love wins
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Well, in this particular case neither of the security services involved would comment - so the vacuum was filled by the group Cage and a particular interview dominated a news cycle - that's the nature of rolling news coverage.
I can find articles in all the major papers poking holes in that interview, so not sure where you get the idea that the interview per se is being taken seriously.
At the moment there is a general feeling that the PTB and the security services in particular are bungling (which is probably in most cases unfair) and unaccountable (which may have a certain amount of truth to it), so it's not surprising that some news stories will take that angle.
I don't see general support for the proposition that MI5 'caused' 'Jihadi John'.
The Beeb are still going on about it, the questions about his treatment by the security services continuing. Those who groom young minds into terrorism may well be capitalising on this. We can take blaming ourselves for everything too far, is all I'm saying.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by Raptor Eye;
quote:
We can take blaming ourselves for everything too far, is all I'm saying.
I think I'm with you on that, but there has been and still is plenty in 'the West' which is likely to put young Muslims off our ways and lead them to believe that an extreme and militant form of Islam would be the answer.
And in my experience people like MI5 (and MPs) don't really understand religion in general and probably would be heavy-handed in dealing with young Muslims.
I'm not a believer in the inherent peaceableness of Islam; but I also recognise the faults of 'Christendom', the distorted Christianity which led to horrors like the Inquisitions, Crusades,and other supposedly Christian violence.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The Beeb are still going on about it, the questions about his treatment by the security services continuing.
Well, why shouldn't there be legitimate questions asked about the specific ways in which the various services deal with terrorism? After all, it's not like they are keeping it in the news in a total vacuum - various fairly senior politicians have commented on it also, in part its continued presence in the news cycle is based on this.
quote:
Those who groom young minds into terrorism may well be capitalising on this.
So therefore we should stop democratic oversight ? This rationale could be equally applied everywhere - as it has been, from Abu Gharib to the current use of drones.
[ 03. March 2015, 15:15: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Gamaliel: So what experience do you have of MI5 Steve?
He could tell you, but then he'd have to kill you.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The anabaptist version of MI5 don't kill anyone, they voice Biblically supported righteous disapproval.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
Like the rest of us, I don't have direct experience of MI-anything that I'm aware of - but I did say 'people like...' I do have some direct experience of MPs' attitudes in this area and they can be really ignorant; and they ought to be better-informed IF MI-etc were doing their job properly.
What does come out publicly about the secret services doesn't suggest much understanding in this kind of area....
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And how could 5 do its job better?
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Love wins
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I see ... so the Anabaptist plan all along has been to reduce the so-called Constantinians' will to live ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The people who made the approaches to Emwazi may well have said they were from MI5 but by the crassness of the cack-handed nature of the approaches have the fingerprints of Special Branch all over them.
Since the decision was made at the end of WWII for MI5 to continue their has been ongoing turf war between the police (Special Branch) and the spooks which, because so much of MI5's work is in and around the capital, is worse in London than elsewhere in the UK.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I was stopped by Special Branch re-entering the country from the Irish Republic, after inter-railing all round Europe - including journeys through the DDR and Yugoslavia. Apparently that made me a prime suspect for smuggling in semtex, or something.
Inept wouldn't be the word I'd use. Crass, insensitive, and frankly barking, perhaps. I hope he enjoy rummaging through a month's washing as much as I enjoyed his boorish questioning and retrieving my belongings from the places he threw them.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
My husband is given an orange folder and a second interview, often very unpleasant in tone, every time he goes to the US (at least 3 times a year)
Why? His name is John Smith and he has long hair ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
PTB = "Powers that be" - a euphemism for the Establishment (which is another kind of euphemism).
Or if you watch WWE, then it's "The Authority".
And as an illustration ..
Steve Langton
Welcome back. And do try to avoid diverting the thread again. There's a relatively small gap between sticking to your guns and campaigning; make sure you don't bridge it.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
[ 04. March 2015, 16:22: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My husband is given an orange folder and a second interview, often very unpleasant in tone, every time he goes to the US (at least 3 times a year)
Why? His name is John Smith and he has long hair
A good way to collect orange folders, then I guess.
During 8 hours of "interrogation" (mostly waiting) in Israel, I didn't get a cup of water, never mind a folder.
I am as Nordic looking as they come.
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arse
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
Thanks, Barnabas62
As a Buffy fan I should have realised 'PTB', I guess; I'm a bit slow at tthe moment with an annoyingly persistent cold.
On 'diverting the thread' - I thought I'd stuck pretty well to the Islam and violence theme?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This solecism has been reproaching me for days: So acknowledging we all have the myth of redemptive violence in common [and] where do we go from here?
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Love wins
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
]
On 'diverting the thread' - I thought I'd stuck pretty well to the Islam and violence theme?
A "word to the wise", Steve. What you got was a gentle hint to mind your Ps and Qs in this thread in view of your posting history. If you want to dispute the need for that hint, the Styx is the right forum.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And mdijon, how are choice and reality mutually exclusive?
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Love wins
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
During 8 hours of "interrogation" (mostly waiting) in Israel, I didn't get a cup of water, never mind a folder.
I am as Nordic looking as they come.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) Are you saying that you wished they had racially profiled you?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And mdijon, how are choice and reality mutually exclusive?
That's a funny way of putting it. What I said was that one can either accept the situation is polarized, or make a choice to not be part of the polarization.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I too was once kept waiting for hours by IDF/Border Staff.
Transpired that a relative had been rather high-up in the Mandate police force - apparently this is their way of saying 'we know your family and we don't like them'.
Strange then that my relative went on to marry a local Jewish girl, hence my orthodox cousins...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
L'organist: I too was once kept waiting for hours by IDF/Border Staff.
This is what normally happens to me. I worked in Palestine for a while, and whenever I had to go through Tel Aviv airport, I arrived 8 hours early.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And mdijon, how are choice and reality mutually exclusive?
That's a funny way of putting it. What I said was that one can either accept the situation is polarized, or make a choice to not be part of the polarization.
I do both.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
In which case the reality is a bit less polarized than it was before.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I too was once kept waiting for hours by IDF/Border Staff.
Transpired that a relative had been rather high-up in the Mandate police force - apparently this is their way of saying 'we know your family and we don't like them'.
Strange then that my relative went on to marry a local Jewish girl, hence my orthodox cousins...
I am convinced that it took so long partly because I couldn't answer one of their questions. They wanted to know about one of my paternal grandparents, who died in the 1960s, long before I was born.
I knew very little about him, they kept asking the same questions, which I would answer and they then went away for a few hours and then ask the same questions again (same answers, I still didn't know much about him). Maybe they were trying to establish if there was any connection between me and Mandate era police or army, I hadn't thought of that.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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