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Source: (consider it) Thread: A not so personal relationship with God/Jesus
no prophet's flag is set so...

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Robertson Davies wrote in The Cunning Man** (1994)
quote:
I knew that he prayed a great deal, of course for help in the examinations. But subsequent clinical experience has convinced me that God is not particularly interested in examinations, just as he won't be dragged into the Stock Market, or being a backer in show business.
I agree with Mr. Davies. And would go further, that we who have been raised with such ideas of "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ" and God's personal interest sparrows etc have been sorely led astray.

In this view, church becomes - if it works for you - a chance to connect with the divine. The prayers, while often selfishly focussed, have the potential to connect us with God, but don't channel anything our way.

We're more part of a worldly an universal play, not the stars of the drama, and individually matter far less than we think and wish. I think God doesn't much notice our individual sufferings and sorrows, wishes and dreams much or at all, and we're part of a larger mystery and whole.


** The Cunning Man. A doctor has an office and residence beside a painfully high Anglican church in Toronto, and practices a philosophical medicine inspired by "Anatomy of Melancholy" (1621) by Robert Burton, and ideas of Jung. Davies is IMHO the best Canadian author of the 20th century, and I'd also recommend "The Manticore" (~1970) which provides an account of Jungian analysis.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Raptor Eye
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As ever, it's both imv. Like King David, whose Psalms we still sing, we have a one to one with God as well as one based on membership of the whole human family, to whom God is as the parent in spiritual terms and other people are our brothers and sisters.

I agree that God isn't particularly interested in the minutiae of our lives, but I sincerely believe that if we invite God to be a part of it, God's guidance will be forthcoming. I believe it because I've experienced it.

We do matter, God does want us to respond to the love that is on offer, both individually and collectively. We're led astray if we think it's all about us, I agree with you there. It's all about God. But we are fully ourselves when we do respond.

God does notice, God suffers with us, and we're part of the greater mystery too.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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By that token I can say it's not true because I've not experienced it.

Then we go through the "did you really invite God to be part of it" etc. etc. and disappear up our own arses.

I have to agree with the OP. God's not our mate.

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anteater

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No p <snip>.:
I was put on to Robertson Davies by someone on the Ship and it may have been you. If so Thanks are due.

He is the best writer I've been introduced to in quite a time. Really.

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Darllenwr
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I find I have to ask, if there is no personal relationship with God, if God really doesn't care about you or me, why bother being a Christian? What on earth is the point? [Ultra confused]

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Fr Weber
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Ah, Moral Therapeutic Deism.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
I find I have to ask, if there is no personal relationship with God, if God really doesn't care about you or me, why bother being a Christian? What on earth is the point? [Ultra confused]

I have trouble with this question. How bold of us to consider ourselves interesting to God, who also engineers things that billions of bacteria die every day in my guts.

More seriously, the point is to become a fully realized human being. In Tolstoy's approximate words 'the only life worth living is the life that is lived for others'. With the typical Christian focus on 'one's own salvation is misfocussed.

anteater: it might have been me, but glad you're reading him.

[ 03. February 2015, 18:14: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Ah, Moral Therapeutic Deism.

I find responses like this rather annoying, particularly with the "ah", which I no doubt repeat in my mind's ear as dismissive. Yes once you've labelled something, you may haughtily dismiss it and render it unworthy of your further consideration.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Darllenwr
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Ah, Moral Therapeutic Deism.

I find responses like this rather annoying, particularly with the "ah", which I no doubt repeat in my mind's ear as dismissive. Yes once you've labelled something, you may haughtily dismiss it and render it unworthy of your further consideration.
I suppose that I would respond that, just because many Christians get it wrong, what makes you suppose that their whole basic premise is wrong? What is it that makes you suppose that, in fact, we are actually insignificant creatures in the eyes of God? If that were the case, why would He have bothered with the rescue mission in the first place?

Edited to add that the system seems to have picked up the wrong posting to reply to. I actually clicked on your reply to me.

[ 03. February 2015, 18:37: Message edited by: Darllenwr ]

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Paul.
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I believe that God is big enough to be "interested" in things far more minute than individual human lives. If the universe is in fact "sustained by his powerful word" then everything from sub-atomic particles to galaxies has his direct involvement.

None of which is to say you shouldn't, on occasion, for the novelty, try to find your own parking space [Big Grin]

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Belle Ringer
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Or maybe God *is* interested in exams and other "little details" but not in the way or order of priority we do?

If the guy who said "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all this stuff will not be an issue for you" was telling the truth, aren't most of our prayers backwards? We say "provide me with good grades and food and then I'll believe in God" while God says "seek the Kingdom [whatever that means!] and as a result the grades and food you need will be there."

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:


More seriously, the point is to become a fully realized human being. In Tolstoy's approximate words 'the only life worth living is the life that is lived for others'. With the typical Christian focus on 'one's own salvation is misfocussed.


I'm sorry to hear that you've met so many 'typical' Christians who focus on themselves and their own salvation so much.

The Christians I know say very little about salvation, nor do I. Except that we believe that Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead, to save us from separation from God: to show us the way to serve. And to become a fully realised human being in the process - which isn't the aim, but the side-effect. The life lived for God is a life lived for others.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Al Eluia

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I've known plenty of Christians who at least talk about the Christian life as "a personal relationship with Jesus," often prefaced by "It's not a religion, it's . . .". (They may actually live their faith lives more fully than this.)
My big problem with this view is that it's an impoverished conception of the relationships involved in the Christian life. As I see it, it's a complex of relationships between me, the church, the wider world, and God.

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Ah, Moral Therapeutic Deism.

I find responses like this rather annoying, particularly with the "ah", which I no doubt repeat in my mind's ear as dismissive. Yes once you've labelled something, you may haughtily dismiss it and render it unworthy of your further consideration.
Well, what else is it then?

1. Doing the right thing is more important than believing the right doctrine
2. Religion is primarily for meeting my own needs
3. God is removed from creation until we ask him for something

It looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Trying to avoid being hellish, but my dear Fr Weber, you're not helping by being a goose. And can't even get it right.

1. agreed, "right doctrine" is the stuff of argument from authority, not evidence nor reason. Ah, a rigid traditionalist who's right because (s)he said so.

2. religion has nothing to do with my needs, rather has to do with following what it right, whatever else the consequences might be. There appears to be a path, and it isn't one I would have set up. This is about as far removed from my needs as possible.

3. Huh? I'm really serious about this, but you don't care to discuss, so why do you bother. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus, Fr Weber?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Fr Weber
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Of course I have a personal relationship with him. A lot of it involves me apologizing.

No worries about being called a goose or being corrected. I don't find that hellish at all; I hope the hosts feel similarly.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Martin60
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God cannot not feel my every weak passion. We put Him through Hell. Worse than what the GCU Grey Area puts a genocide through.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
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Why is it necessary to dismiss the experiences of others? Maybe the personal relationship thing doesn't work for you (general value of you), but it does for some folks. That's just the way they are built. Let them get on with it, then. There's no necessity for everyone to deal with God in exactly the same way.

Similarly, we are invited to pray about everything, even silly little annoying things (yes, even freaking parking spots). If you choose not to, that's certainly your right. But why look down on the people who do? The examples we're given in Scripture are some of them really quite petty, from a human point of view. "If your son asks for a piece of bread" and all that.

Personally I DO pray about stupid little things, as well as the big things. I figure that if it's on my mind, God knows it already, so I'm not doing him a favor by refusing to say anything about it. In fact, I may be doing him a discourtesy, as my silence introduces a certain distance between us. (Consider the parallel case of how you feel when a close friend or spouse obviously has something on their mind, but gives you the brush-off when you ask.)

Now, it would be ideal (maybe) if I could be so high-minded that I never fretted over trifles or concerned myself with whether I could get a parking spot close enough to keep from jarring my bad ankle. But I'm not that high-minded. I'm just not. And God knows that perfectly well.

Similarly it might be grand (maybe--maybe not) if I were adult enough that I didn't yell at God, whine at him, come crying to him when in trouble or afraid, etc. etc. etc., which actions form a big part of my "personal relationship" with him. But like it or not, that is what I need and what I do, and he puts up with it. Thank God.

Why not live and let live?

And if I'm selfish for believing God takes an interest, at least I'm honestly selfish. Though I don't in fact think this belief has anything to do with selfishness or the reverse at all.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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I can live with that: some people are blessed* with the personal relationship thing and others aren't.

*?cursed

Though pretty sure that most minutiae must be stored as metadata, if at all, with most of no account. With a better focus being outside of oneself.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why not live and let live?

This. LC's entire post. Don't like how somebody else relates to God? Too fucking bad. Mind your own fucking business. Message ends.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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If you don't care to discuss things, why are you here?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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mdijon
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I think the trick is to discuss without being dismissive or demonstrating antipathy.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If you don't care to discuss things, why are you here?

If you equate discussing with belittling and attacking, then is the Ship the place for you?

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
I find I have to ask, if there is no personal relationship with God, if God really doesn't care about you or me, why bother being a Christian? What on earth is the point? [Ultra confused]

Just a thought: Suppose you happen to believe that God exists, even if perhaps you'd rather you didn't. And you believe that he has power over your eternal destiny. You're going to try not to piss him off, aren't you? By living according to his precepts, for a start. I'm not suggesting, by the way, that this is how it should be, or even how it is for the majority who label themselves Christian. But it might go some way toward explaining how there can be a 'point' outside of a personal relationship with Jesus.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Eutychus
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hosting/

no prophet's flag is set so..., stating one is trying to avoid being hellish prior to being hellish is verging on the jerkish.

mousethief, you know better than to add fuel to the fire, and your post count does not grant you immunity from the rules.

Everyone, take the heat out of this conversation or take it to Hell.

/hosting

[ 04. February 2015, 05:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why is it necessary to dismiss the experiences of others? Maybe the personal relationship thing doesn't work for you (general value of you), but it does for some folks. That's just the way they are built. Let them get on with it, then. There's no necessity for everyone to deal with God in exactly the same way.

Similarly, we are invited to pray about everything, even silly little annoying things (yes, even freaking parking spots). If you choose not to, that's certainly your right. But why look down on the people who do?

My Mum is a 'praise the Lord, he found me a parking space' sort. It has always made me uncomfortable - just the way my mind works. I hear it and can't help thinking, 'What about the guy behind you? He now DOESN'T get a parking space right outside the Post Office - because God gave it to you - but what if he needs it more? What about all the people who have to drive around for a quarter-hour before they find a parking space? Is God sending them any kind of message thereby? Are they not of the elect?' This is the problem with the thinking, in my view. Not that it is inherently contemptible to go around thinking that God is interested in the minutiae of your life, but that seeing everyday happenings as blessings God is bestowing on you can end up raising more issues than it settles.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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mousethief

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The problem with that is swinging entirely in the other direction, into determinism or something of the sort. And it leaves no room for thankfulness, if I'm afraid to thank God for some little blessing of life, lest I imply that somebody else isn't blessed. I'd better not thank God for bringing my boy home safe from Iraq because somebody else's boy didn't come home, and that would be implying that God plays favorites. I don't see how to go down that path without totally making thankfulness not just impossible but evil.

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Gamaliel
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Similar issues raised here to the current thread in Ecclesiantics about the invocation of Saints. I'm not sure I understand why it became hot here. I am all for apophatic theology and transcendence but if Wesley was right and the Triune God is 'in himself a sweet society', then surely it's ok to talk in relational terms?

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The problem with that is swinging entirely in the other direction, into determinism or something of the sort. And it leaves no room for thankfulness, if I'm afraid to thank God for some little blessing of life, lest I imply that somebody else isn't blessed. I'd better not thank God for bringing my boy home safe from Iraq because somebody else's boy didn't come home, and that would be implying that God plays favorites. I don't see how to go down that path without totally making thankfulness not just impossible but evil.

But Mousie, that problem exists with God being personally involved. Was the reason that he ignores prayers for cancer so that people die within weeks of their well earned retirement, utterly destroying their family's faith and blighting their family life with depression thereafter, that he was busy finding some charismatic a parking space at the time?

Fatuous comment, yes, but I am sure you get the point.

That's one reason why it matters to me when people talk of a "personal relationship with God".

The other reason it does matter to me is that if God is into entering these personal relationships, why does he seem to have steadfastly excluded me from this arrangement for thirty years of belief?

What would it even mean? Does he ring up on the phone? Does he join you down the pub? In what sense is this a relationship, or personal? In what way is it analogous to the other personal relationships I have with my friends, my family, even people I come across at work?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Martin60
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Nobody has a personal relationship with God. I talk Him all the time.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
itsarumdo
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Since threads on this particular topic tend to get quite bad tempered, although it's a very important topic - probably the most important - I'm not going to say anything at all other than imo we all have a personal relationship with God. And all prayers are heard and answered.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Since threads on this particular topic tend to get quite bad tempered, although it's a very important topic - probably the most important - I'm not going to say anything at all other than imo we all have a personal relationship with God. And all prayers are heard and answered.

I think that post is a perfect example of the sort of reason that threads on this topic get bad tempered.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Gamaliel
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Yes, Karl. I think you've answered my question about not understanding why things had got so 'hot' here ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The problem with that is swinging entirely in the other direction, into determinism or something of the sort. And it leaves no room for thankfulness, if I'm afraid to thank God for some little blessing of life, lest I imply that somebody else isn't blessed. I'd better not thank God for bringing my boy home safe from Iraq because somebody else's boy didn't come home, and that would be implying that God plays favorites. I don't see how to go down that path without totally making thankfulness not just impossible but evil.

But Mousie, that problem exists with God being personally involved. Was the reason that he ignores prayers for cancer so that people die within weeks of their well earned retirement, utterly destroying their family's faith and blighting their family life with depression thereafter, that he was busy finding some charismatic a parking space at the time?

Fatuous comment, yes, but I am sure you get the point.



It's not so much that it's fatuous as based on a view of God that I don't share - that God has limited bandwidth or that he plays favourites unfairly.
The former would mean he wasn't God IMHO. The later is a genuine issue but you don't need to look at parking spaces to create theodicy, you can just look at the cancer patient in the next bed who survived.

If scale is a bar to God's interest then everything up to and including a pandemic that wipes out humanity, in fact all life on earth, is too trivial for the God of the entire universe.

I suppose that logic gets you to the same position as the OP, but I come at it the other way and end up thinking that if God is interested in human suffering then he's also interested in our mundanity.

The question of the tact and sensitivity of praising God for your parking space in front of the recently bereaved is a separate issue.

quote:
The other reason it does matter to me is that if God is into entering these personal relationships, why does he seem to have steadfastly excluded me from this arrangement for thirty years of belief?
What exactly is it that you feel excluded from? Because I don't think having a personal relationship with God means feeling warm and fuzzy all the time. It doesn't mean having some sense of God's presence. I think unfortunately some eager types who do get to experience those things over emphasise them and confuse the issue. So "personal relationship" becomes like an anti dog whistle, which is sad IMHO.

quote:
What would it even mean? Does he ring up on the phone? Does he join you down the pub? In what sense is this a relationship, or personal? In what way is it analogous to the other personal relationships I have with my friends, my family, even people I come across at work?
For me it means recognising that I am a person, God is a person and that we relate to one another. The mechanics of that relationship are different to other relationships but then not all my relationships are the same anyway. True this is the most unique but then so is God.

I guess I believe God is personal and wants to relate to me because that's what I believe God has said. So I start from a position that this is true and work out what that means.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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I'm a person, the bloke next door is a person, we interact, he seems a lot more real than God tbh, but I wouldn't dream of saying I have a "personal relationship" with him - that implies something much more intimate and intense to me.

Perhaps it's semantics. Perhaps I mean a lot more by the term "personal relationship" than other people do. By the definition offered, ISTM I have a "personal relationship" with the Queen. I'm not sure how useful such a vague and loose definition of the term is.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm a person, the bloke next door is a person, we interact, he seems a lot more real than God tbh, but I wouldn't dream of saying I have a "personal relationship" with him - that implies something much more intimate and intense to me.

Perhaps it's semantics. Perhaps I mean a lot more by the term "personal relationship" than other people do. By the definition offered, ISTM I have a "personal relationship" with the Queen. I'm not sure how useful such a vague and loose definition of the term is.

That's a fair comment and tbh I personally would use "personal relationship" re: the neighbour but not the Queen. I definitely interact more with God than either but I've never interacted with the Queen at all.

But this is the context of a thread that posits a God that doesn't really notice us except as part of a whole.

So yes, my "personal relationship" with the bloke next door is limited and maybe that makes the phrase rather weak but I'd still use it about him in a way I wouldn't about the bacteria that lives on the flea that's embedded in the fur of one of the Queen's Corgis.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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The language of 'relationship' doesn't work for me at all. Relationships have to be about mutuality and reciprocity. But with God, all I do is talk to a silent, unresponsive absence. How is that a relationship?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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But Paul. do I interact with God? It seems one way; I do X, Y, Z, but I'm not conscious of reciprocation from God. He may reciprocate in some way of which I'm not conscious, but if relationships aren't about what we are conscious of I don't quite know what they're about.

That's why relationship seems the wrong word.

And what Adeodatus said.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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hatless

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# 3365

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The parking place thing is bizarre in several ways, but worrying in that unlike cancer, plane crashes and having lovely, healthy kids, getting a parking space is always and only about beating someone else to it. We are in competition for those limited spaces. So it reveals a God who advantages his own prayerful people over the rest. Members benefits.

You would at least hope that people would think better of God than that.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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The problem is that the various phrases ('a personal relationship' and 'it's not a religion .. it's a relationship) have a loaded history of being used to differentiate between who was a real christian, and who was not.

So I can see why some people have an instinctive response towards them which isn't always friendly.

Also, despite coming from a background where they were used, I'm with Fr Weber on their somewhat jejune quality.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The language of 'relationship' doesn't work for me at all. Relationships have to be about mutuality and reciprocity. But with God, all I do is talk to a silent, unresponsive absence. How is that a relationship?

Ah, but you need some theological subtlety here - it's an absence that is actually a presence. Doesn't that feel better already? (*sarcasm smiley).

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Paul.
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# 37

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But Paul. do I interact with God? It seems one way; I do X, Y, Z, but I'm not conscious of reciprocation from God.

I can't speak to whether you interact with God because I'm not you. I can say that the reciprocation I perceive from God probably doesn't look like anything to an outsider, maybe coincidence and wishful thinking. Maybe it is, but I choose to believe otherwise because I start from a position of believing God is speaking to me and look for how that is happening.

quote:
He may reciprocate in some way of which I'm not conscious, but if relationships aren't about what we are conscious of I don't quite know what they're about.

That's why relationship seems the wrong word.

Maybe it is. Especially given the fact that these terms are often used as code for something else. However the Bible use relationship language and so I'm loathed to give it up. And frankly, I find it comforting.

quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
The parking place thing is bizarre in several ways, but worrying in that unlike cancer, plane crashes and having lovely, healthy kids, getting a parking space is always and only about beating someone else to it. We are in competition for those limited spaces. So it reveals a God who advantages his own prayerful people over the rest. Members benefits.

You would at least hope that people would think better of God than that.

Indeed. Something I was going to say earlier - but my reply was already wordy enough! - was that we can make these comparisons and make it about God ("the kind of God that finds me a parking space but doesn't heal a sick child is a monster") but really a person that delights in a parking space when their neighbour is suffering has some priorities to look at. But that can be true and God can still be interested in the details of our lives.

And as LC, I think, was saying. If what's on your mind right now, rightly or wrongly, is where to park, which is better? to involve God in your thoughts or not? If prayer is a way for God to speak to us then maybe even articulating the desire will start to re-focus your mind on something more important.

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Raptor Eye
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# 16649

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I don't know why, if someone is guided toward a parking space by God, or if someone simply finds a convenient parking space and thanks God for it, that this implies that God doesn't care as there is sickness in the world and people suffer and die.

I don't know why some find it such a terrible thing that God might be so very close, to live intimately with us, if we invite Christ into our lives and welcome the Holy Spirit's guidance.

I too don't know why some people are never aware of God in a personal, conscious way. Some see God in nature, in creation, in other people, in the Church, in the Bible, in the saints, in good works, in music, in thought, etc instead.

The first steps of faith found me asking questions of Jesus in prayer, and finding them addressed in what became more than coincidental ways, to the point where I became convinced that guidance is given if I ask for it. There are all manner of pitfalls of our own making, but in the end we either accept or deny the source of any experience we do have of God.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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BroJames
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# 9636

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I think it's right to speak of God as 'person', and right therefore to think of our relationship with God as personal in that sense.

I may not know my neighbour well, but my interactions with her/him are interactions as between persons, not as between a person and, say, a hamster, or a tree or a machine.

I also think we have it on good authority that God does care about individuals, about small things, and about our 'need' for parking spaces, the outcomes of exams, and our daily bread.

The challenge I find in prayer is how to prevent it becoming something like a note to the milkman (albeit on a slightly more important scale), and how I feel about the way in which the conversation does or does not seem to be one sided. All this is part of the mystery of God's interaction with the created order.

I still think I am more question than answer on this, but I find helpful this poem on prayer and this both by C.S. Lewis.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I don't know why, if someone is guided toward a parking space by God, or if someone simply finds a convenient parking space and thanks God for it, that this implies that God doesn't care as there is sickness in the world and people suffer and die.

Well, it implies that God finds parking spaces but doesn't do anything about real suffering. That's the problem. If God is so able and willing to intervene in the world that he finds you a parking space, why the ever-living fuck does he generally do fuck all when people get cancer, are raped and murdered, have their crops fail and starve to death etc. etc.?

quote:
I don't know why some find it such a terrible thing that God might be so very close, to live intimately with us, if we invite Christ into our lives and welcome the Holy Spirit's guidance.
Not a terrible thing. Just something that Doesn't Happen to some of us. At least not that we've noticed.

quote:
I too don't know why some people are never aware of God in a personal, conscious way. Some see God in nature, in creation, in other people, in the Church, in the Bible, in the saints, in good works, in music, in thought, etc instead.
And some of us aren't sure we see him anywhere.

quote:
The first steps of faith found me asking questions of Jesus in prayer, and finding them addressed in what became more than coincidental ways, to the point where I became convinced that guidance is given if I ask for it. There are all manner of pitfalls of our own making, but in the end we either accept or deny the source of any experience we do have of God.
And after many years of trying this with varying levels of commitment (because I'm not good at constantly talking to brick walls) some of us find it just isn't. Why does God guide you and not me, eh?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If you don't care to discuss things, why are you here?

If you equate discussing with belittling and attacking, then is the Ship the place for you?
Not sure what you're on about. I am the one cursed.

I would so much love to have the personal relationship again. But I can't. I am not allowed any more. This morning, I began to wonder if I was able to thank God for suffering, for punishment, if I might again. I yearn for something now denied.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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A grab bag of thoughts--

First, the parking thing. Asking for a parking spot (or any other limited good, like a piece of fish or an egg, see examples in Luke 11)-- does NOT mean you have to hate your neighbor and want to do him down by grabbing a spot before him. Hello, I mean, seriously? "How can I inconvenience this guy?" is NOT my overriding desire when I'm seeking a parking spot. Is it anybody's? I'd be much happier if we all found good places. And asking for a spot does NOT mean I can somehow compel God to give it to me over the needs of someone else, as if prayer were magic. God can and does say no. Very frequently, in fact.

On what a personal relationship means--I do think we've got a semantic problem going on, and I don't know how to mend it. I avoid the term for precisely this reason, and try to handle the concept by description instead. My "personal relationship" is bound to be very different from someone else's "personal relationship," or from what a third person believes "personal relationship" means.

For one thing, mine doesn't include favoritism. God is not in my back pocket, doesn't practice nepotism, and is just as likely to put me through pain and discomfort as he is to make my life smoother. Far more likely, in fact. He's had me long enough that it's time for me to grow up and take some grief for the sake of other people in the world, believers or not. I'm not a baby anymore.

So if there's unpleasantness that has to fall to somebody (say, a nasty job that must be done, or a painful situation that someone has to endure in order to make things better)--well, guess who he's going to dump it on? After all this time, he has the right to expect some sacrifice from me. And the "personal relationship" means that he doesn't have to ask, if you know what I mean. It's the people we're closest to that we take the worst advantage of, knowing they will forgive us.

Now, the most serious and painful point in this thread--the question of why God seems to favor some people (even with silly things) and allow others to suffer horribly. I don't know. I don't think anybody's going to get an answer to that one in this life. I DO know that my "personal relationship" with God hasn't prevented me from suffering all kinds of atrocious and unexplained evils. Quite the opposite, in fact. And if anyone really does have a "personal relationship" that involves continual comfort and ease (and I seriously doubt this, I think a lot of people lie through their teeth), but if such a thing really exists for anybody, I would be inclined to think the person was a spiritual baby, and that God was treating them so gently because he knew they weren't up to handling anything more, even with divine help. Which is a very sad state to be in.

[ 04. February 2015, 13:14: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
If you don't care to discuss things, why are you here?

If you equate discussing with belittling and attacking, then is the Ship the place for you?
Not sure what you're on about. I am the one cursed.

I would so much love to have the personal relationship again. But I can't. I am not allowed any more. This morning, I began to wonder if I was able to thank God for suffering, for punishment, if I might again. I yearn for something now denied.

And right here is where we reach holy ground, and I'm scared to say a word.

I do think that in spiritual things, ultimately, those who want, get. But the key is in the word "ultimately." There are some hellishly long and horrible spiritual deserts out there, and we all have to walk through them at some point. I've spent years in those places--when God seems to have disappeared or turned his back, when everything is flat or excruciating or both at once. They taught me endurance, I think. They also scared the hell out of me. Lately I've been wondering if I'm being sent out for another few laps in the desert. God would be quite capable of it.

But they do come to an end. The wanting is incredibly painful, and there's nothing to do but keep crying out. But God does answer, in the end. How I wish I could force him to do it earlier!

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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my two cents:

I don't experience God as absent-- at least not currently. I don't experience prayer as one-sided; I believe God is speaking to me in ways that obviously would not be apparent to an outside observer but are nonetheless quite real (or at least I believe them to be).

I recognize that not everyone has that sort of experience of God. And, like most people, I haven't always had that experience. I was a Christian a long, long time before I ever had any sort of sense of God "speaking to me". Other Christians who are more faithful and obedient than I could ever hope to be aren't having those sorts of experiences now or perhaps ever. And of course, the Psalms are full of the laments of those who are feeling that absence.

And yet, the times when I do feel the presence of God, when I do hear his voice-- those markers of a "personal" relationship-- are so sweet, so powerful, so wonderful, that I can't let go of the hope, even in those dry spells when the memory fades. I can't stop yearning for it. I don't know why some people seem to have that experience frequently/ regularly and others (like me) infrequently or not at all. I know from observation it doesn't seem to have much to do with desire or faithfulness. I want to assume it's available to everyone, but don't have any way to know that for sure. But I cannot stop yearning for it.

Much of the quite valid oncerns raised here (why does God give you a parking space/ healing/ protection and not me/ my neighbor/ etc?) go back to the problem of theodicy. Which of course is a whole 'nother long discussion (I'm sure no one wants to hear me go into another one of my long pedantic explanations of Open Theism) but so intimately wedded to this one we can't avoid it. The reason we sometimes react so negatively to the notion of a "personal relationship with God" is because we have so often been disappointed-- sometimes horrifically so-- by God. For many of us, it's an open, raw wound that's always there, and the closer you get to it, the more we're going to react by pushing the topic (and, arguably, God) away.

The Psalms also I think speak to this. And sometimes that's all we can do-- just recite the Psalms to give us words to express either a pain or a longing that's too deep and raw to speak extemporaneously.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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As ever, I am cursed with the ability to see both sides of this one ... [Razz]

I don't have an issue with the idea of God being 'relational' - after all, the Bible is full of that. Ok, we have to understand a lot of this stuff metaphorically - 'The LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just a man speaks to his friend' ...

Exodus 33:11 http://biblehub.com/exodus/33-11.htm

Are we to believe that God has a 'face'?

Well, in a sense ... otherwise what is the Incarnation all about?

Surely that's relational?

I do have an issue with some of the 'parking place' stuff - be it in its evangelical form or in the more popular forms of Catholic piety, 'Holy Mother, full of grace, please find me a parking place ...'

Why?

Because it can lead to the kind of Oliver Cromwell thing, 'God made them as stubble to our swords.'

You know, the idea that God is somehow intrinsically on our side and stuff everyone else ...

I will admit that I do sometimes have a sense of God's presence and guidance - or what I take to be such a thing ... but equally, as with anyone else who has sought to articulate or explore these things, 'the heavens are as brass' at times.

No, I don't go in for the idea of direct impressions and illuminations these days - it's more a sense of God being 'there' but not necessarily with any 'tangible' tokens - beyond the good things around us in creation and the elements we all appreciate - food, music, landscapes, relationships with other people etc.

This is where it can get tricky - as Eliot has it in 'The Four Quartets' when he lists things that can give us a sense of illumination or well-being ... 'or even a very good dinner'.

All that said, I'm reluctant to eschew 'relationship' type language altogether - although I recognise its jejune aspects and that it can too often be used as form of short-hand ie. I'm a real Christian but that person over there who doesn't 'get it' in the way that I do, clearly isn't ...

Which is how it tends to be bandied about in some circles.

I once heard a Benedictine monk allude to the sense of what we might call a 'personal relationship' - but he didn't use those terms - in a way that would have passed muster in any evangelical setting ... but without in any way sounding crass.

I think that's the issue.

It's an area where it's easy to sound crass or simplistic and put people's backs up.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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