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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A not so personal relationship with God/Jesus
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
There is an inter-active history for some people, though.....
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Originally posted by anoesis:
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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Jesus said that such people are blessed.
Well, that's ok then. Kind of like how having someone say 'sorry' after crashing their car into yours fixes up all the dents and the broken glass and so on.
I don't understand this comment, please explain.
I guess where I was coming from was thinking of Karl: LB's expressed experience of not having any sort of sense at all that Jesus even exists - if you aren't convinced of his existence, how can something he is said to have said be of any comfort? If he doesn't exist, he by definition never said anything! So you are only able to be comforted by his words if you have faith in the first place. The car analogy isn't this complex, however - all I was saying with that is that there are situations in which saying things, even nice or meaningful things such as blessings, don't do very much to help the situation*.
[edit to add*] *A reference to Jesus saying things, not picking at you.
[ 10. February 2015, 22:49: Message edited by: anoesis ]
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
...If I were no longer aware of God's presence for a long period of time...
Now imagine if you had never been aware of it, except perhaps for fleeting seconds long ago that might equally have been low blood sugar or mere excitement, and aren't exactly sure what being aware of it would feel like anyway...
You might see how bizarre this "personal relationship" stuff seems to some of us.
This. Perhaps I wouldn't say "bizarre" but "unimaginable."
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Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
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Originally posted by mousethief:
You would seem to be changing your definition. First it's not a relationship unless it's two way. Now it's not a relationship unless it's two way, or at least you can remember it once being two way.
No. You have a relationship with your wife with an history of interaction. If she were to be asleep or in a coma (God forbid): the history of interaction is not negated by her altered state. Nor even by death. Because the interactive history exists. With God, there isn't an interactive history.
You have now changed your definition to a third thing: a relationship means having an interactive history. You seem to be having a hard time settling on a definition of "relationship."
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Originally posted by anoesis:
I guess where I was coming from was thinking of Karl: LB's expressed experience of not having any sort of sense at all that Jesus even exists - if you aren't convinced of his existence, how can something he is said to have said be of any comfort? If he doesn't exist, he by definition never said anything!
This is quite a leap. From "not having a sense that Jesus exists" to "not convinced of his existence" is a leap already, then "if he doesn't exist" is a gigantic leap farther. I cry foul. KLB never said God doesn't exist, or indeed never said (in this post) that he wasn't convinced of God's existence (although who is?).
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So you are only able to be comforted by his words if you have faith in the first place.
Um, yeah. I'm having a heck of a time thinking of someone who would be comforted by God's words if they didn't believe in God.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Jesus said that such people are blessed.
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Originally posted by anoesis:
Well, that's ok then. Kind of like how having someone say 'sorry' after crashing their car into yours fixes up all the dents and the broken glass and so on.
I wonder if this is a dimension of theodicy - that huge problem that many theists struggle with a theoretical answer to.
Many prayers are unanswered ranging from those to stop the holocaust through those for spiritual comfort or awakening through to those for lost car keys or parking spaces. It is claimed by some that some are answered, this can't be verified by outside observers. Why is God silent and unmoved? Or is he? He certainly isn't clear about it to most people.
That's the deal for most Christians as well. The decisions are whether we take it and live with it or reject it, and if we take it how do we cope - by dressing it up, tricking ourselves, by intellectual theological justifications of conservative or liberal flavours or some other trick. But there isn't a different deal on offer much as I wish there was.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you Anoesis.
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Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
Well, that's ok then. Kind of like how having someone say 'sorry' after crashing their car into yours fixes up all the dents and the broken glass and so on.
I wonder if this is a dimension of theodicy - that huge problem that many theists struggle with a theoretical answer to.
Many prayers are unanswered ranging from those to stop the holocaust through those for spiritual comfort or awakening through to those for lost car keys or parking spaces. It is claimed by some that some are answered, this can't be verified by outside observers. Why is God silent and unmoved? Or is he? He certainly isn't clear about it to most people.
That's the deal for most Christians as well. The decisions are whether we take it and live with it or reject it, and if we take it how do we cope - by dressing it up, tricking ourselves, by intellectual theological justifications of conservative or liberal flavours or some other trick. But there isn't a different deal on offer much as I wish there was.
As you said, we're well into theodicy territory here, and I wonder how intertwined theodicy is with the question of personal relationship. The latter does not mean that God is on call like a genie in a lamp. Far from it. Take a look at what happened to Jesus. I accept that, and live with it. I was never promised a rose garden, but the hope that all shall be well in the end. I do believe that God is moved, and that God cares.
Whenever I ask the questions of theodicy once again, I come back to the same place: Am I expecting heaven now?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Many prayers are unanswered ranging from those to stop the holocaust through those for spiritual comfort or awakening through to those for lost car keys or parking spaces. It is claimed by some that some are answered, this can't be verified by outside observers. Why is God silent and unmoved? Or is he? He certainly isn't clear about it to most people.
I have no doubt that if God clearly answered all our prayers, even if it was sometimes just to say "no," that it would seriously mess us up.
Even when Jesus was God among us as one of us, it didn't take long for people to focus more on what they could get from him than on what they could learn:
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Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
John 6:26
But if God were to be clearly among us as God, how long would it be before we took miracles for granted and started to become resentful because we expected more? How much would we try to love our neighbor if God was there to do everything necessary? It seems to me that God is not clearly present because it's more important for us to focus on something else, namely how we treat each other.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I would say that this is the best world it could be, given the way it was created. That we have to have freedom or else we'd simply become demanding children.
So, with these two things, a 'relationship with God' is not particularly needed. But it isn't escaped either, as God is in and through all of creation.
So being alive is a relationship with God/The Christ, whether we acknowledge it or not.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would say that this is the best world it could be, given the way it was created. That we have to have freedom or else we'd simply become demanding children.
So, with these two things, a 'relationship with God' is not particularly needed. But it isn't escaped either, as God is in and through all of creation.
So being alive is a relationship with God/The Christ, whether we acknowledge it or not.
Nicely put. Well, that's the position that I have been slowly coming to. It seems to make churches and religions redundant, except for aesthetic purposes.
It reminds me of the sermon that Buddha gave by holding up a flower - anyway, one robust approach to this in Zen, is 'become Buddha, the koan, and the flower!'.
But you already are them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But you already are them.
Re. churches and religions: doesn't it help to know that you already are? Why else would Buddha bother with the sermon?
I find this one tricky. In one sense, yes, it's said that one person smiled, when Buddha held up the flower. But what about the others?
Are they worse off? Well, we are already making a comparison, which is itself a disservice to everyone, isn't it?
I find this confusing, since we seem to encouraging the view that there is a place which is better. There is somewhere to get to, and then I feel uncomfortable, since I am here.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
anoesis - clever analogy. But it IS good enough.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Two thoughts as I sit looking over a northern lake at -25°C with snow coming down slowly in large flakes after a day's skiing listening to Stan Rogers sing The Mary Ellen Carter (Rise Again).
The breaking of so great a thing should make a greater crack (Shakespeare). But it just sits quietly like the 7 feet of ice on the lake.
God is teaching us that we must live as [people] who can get along very well without him.... God allows himself to be edged out of the world and onto the cross. (Bonhoeffer)
(The first from memory - Antony & Cleopatra. The second because I am foolish enough to think the words of others mean something when I read them. )
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But you already are them.
Re. churches and religions: doesn't it help to know that you already are? Why else would Buddha bother with the sermon?
I find this one tricky. In one sense, yes, it's said that one person smiled, when Buddha held up the flower. But what about the others?
Are they worse off? Well, we are already making a comparison, which is itself a disservice to everyone, isn't it?
Is it? Why?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But you already are them.
Re. churches and religions: doesn't it help to know that you already are? Why else would Buddha bother with the sermon?
I find this one tricky. In one sense, yes, it's said that one person smiled, when Buddha held up the flower. But what about the others?
Are they worse off? Well, we are already making a comparison, which is itself a disservice to everyone, isn't it?
Is it? Why?
Well, if I am comparing you to someone else, I don't think that I am really seeing you directly or relating to you directly. You have become something abstract in my mind.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, if I am comparing you to someone else, I don't think that I am really seeing you directly or relating to you directly. You have become something abstract in my mind.
I don't see why that should be the case. If I saw you standing next to somebody else, and said, "You're taller than he is," does that mean I'm not seeing you directly? That you have become abstract in my mind? Why should other comparisons be different?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, if I am comparing you to someone else, I don't think that I am really seeing you directly or relating to you directly. You have become something abstract in my mind.
I don't see why that should be the case. If I saw you standing next to somebody else, and said, "You're taller than he is," does that mean I'm not seeing you directly? That you have become abstract in my mind? Why should other comparisons be different?
Well, my original example concerned Buddha's flower sermon, which (according to legend), was understood by one person, who smiled. And Buddha understood the smile.
Anyway, I was making a point about all the others, who didn't get the point. Should we compare them with the one who did get it? My idea is that that takes us away from them.
Well, it's a technique I've discovered in Zen, to do with not comparing and not judging. But I'm not saying that all comparisons are odious!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Once you say "this person smiled and those other people did not" you have made a comparison. The problem comes in when you try to psychoanalize why the one person smiled and the others didn't. In other words it's not in the comparison per se, but in the reasons you (generic you) try to trot out to explain the difference noted in the comparison.
Jumping on the comparison as the problem point seems to me to be focusing on the wrong thing. You can try to psychoanalyze someone without comparing them to anybody else, and you're still going to end up with the same difficulties -- it's the pretending you can see inside someone's head that's the problem, whether or not you're comparing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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