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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Modesty is in the eye of the beholder
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Should women have to dress so as to avoid the opprobrium of males? Should men not have to control their own lusts? Two sides of the same coin.
Men (at least those who write history) appear to have always had a problem with controlling their sexual needs. Women appear to have always had the problem of unwanted sexual attraction.
Oh, yeah, every person goes through a stage of thinking "I like how my body is developing. I think I'll try out some clothing/lack of clothing that makes me feel good". That is now known as teen-age.
BUT should religious folk get to determine how everyone else dresses, especially in the present communication era? And especially when "The Rules" about dressing make less and less sense.
Apparently, shoulders are focus for lust in this community. Is this the problem of the wearer or of the officious busybody?
Just a little rant to get you going. Now: Modesty Culture. Why are so many churches (mosques, etc.) involved in confusing rules about what women should wear, given that men are not given the same strictures? Why are men assumed to have the choice of droit de seigneur* at all times.
Basically, why can't men be expected to keep it in their pants?
We could go on to discuss ultra Jews and the harassment of women, but keep it simple: what is there about Christian churches that makes them so offended by things that any sensible male can deal with?
Here is the blogpost which got me going. It includes lots of links if you want to go that way.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Good question Horseman Bree.
I will be interested to hear the answers. I can't imagine what it must be like to be aroused by the visual (I am not and never have been). So it's easy for me to say that women should be able to wear whatever they like - including nothing at all.
But it must be annoying to have a penis with a mind of its own. Winter months must be easier ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
For some reason, I associate this with fundamentalist movements in various religions.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I am "reliably informed" that men wearing suits give some women the horn. Where does that leave us?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Taking the High School reasoning as a given, the standard does not matter. It is the deviation from that standard which will draw attention.
For most of modern, Western society that dress is quite modest. Merely having a no bare-shoulder policy makes the shoulder a sexual fixation. Well, would if one lived in an isolated society. But in modern America, even Mormon Utah, that is a ridiculous concept anyway. "I've just watched Kate Upton eat a burger in a pornographic fashion, downloaded nude pics of Kim Kardashian and watched an online porno. But that girl's bare shoulder is giving me the horn!" So, stupid.
But, to answer the OP, yes men should keep it in their pants. The very concept of female modesty is intended to obviate male responsibility and further control women.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Briefing to teenage girls going to the school dance or whatever needs to contain: "The boys will get boners when they look at you, and you may notice it during the slow dances. Make sure to pity them and laugh at them for their lack of self control. Start with words, and remember to use your knee and your left fist if necessary. Some of them will learn self control over time, others won't. Their horniness is their problem."
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Odd, because you make it sound like girls never get the horn, and are perfectly chaste in thought, if not deed. Again, I have it on good authority that this is not the case.
Should we then issue warnings to the boys, or should we rather accept that teenagers of either sex will get the horn in close proximity with those they find sexually attractive, and openly discuss how to deal with that?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We get it both ways. If we dress for comfort (sweatpants) we are accused of frumpiness. A businesslike facial expression elicits comments in the street: "Smile, honey!" Why are we not fulfilling our function of being attractive to men?
So off into the other direction, the heels, the short skirt, the tight dress, the plunging neckline. Suddenly the comments are different -- I leave it to your imagination. Then the expectation is, why are we not fulfilling our female function of having sex with the accoster, here and now?
And so my feeling is: you are on your own, men. I am my own person: my face, my body, my butt, my clothes. I do not exist for you in any way. Your titillation, your erection, your ego, your satisfaction -- all your own, to endure or enjoy. They are as distant to me as Mars, totally not my responsibility or problem.
Unless you make them my problem. Obtrude them upon me in any way, without my explicit invitation (and when I invite you may rely upon it to be unmistakeable) and you will feel my pain. Do you doubt my communication skills?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Briefing to teenage girls going to the school dance or whatever needs to contain: "The boys will get boners when they look at you, and you may notice it during the slow dances. Make sure to pity them and laugh at them for their lack of self control. Start with words, and remember to use your knee and your left fist if necessary. Some of them will learn self control over time, others won't. Their horniness is their problem."
I don't think humiliating people, including teenage boys, is helpful. Buy them a dance belt.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Boogie said:
quote:
Winter months must be easier [Smile]
Sure are.
Having a (as far as I can tell) normal male libido is a f*cking nightmare. It gets a bit better as you get older, but I've heard conflicting reports as to whether it dies away to a blissful nothing, or stays with you as an unrequiteable hassle, into extreme old age. Can't wait to be rid of the f*cking thing.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What makes people think it is different from female libido ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Doc Tor, the difference is that female teenagers already are usually taught that they must deal with it, and deal with it by restraining themselves. The same is not true re male teenagers.
I can't speak for all male teenagers, but the Boy has his instructions, and they're no different from the Girl's.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Data on desire, NY Times, respectable but may not be worksafe. (Depending on your workplace.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
What makes people think it is different from female libido ?
OK, it's anecdote, but everyone I know well enough to discuss this kind of thing (say about 6 or 7 fellas - and I'm talking thoughtful one-on-one conversation, not pissed-up rhetoric in the pub) says the same thing. No-one wants the male libido. Not the men, because it's a nightmare, and not their wives, which makes it a largely unrelieved nightmare.
Perhaps there is hope.
[ 03. February 2015, 18:56: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Data on desire, NY Times, respectable but may not be worksafe. (Depending on your workplace.)
Are you sure that link wasn't intended for another thread?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Doublethink, I think your link may go to the wrong place...
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Well I've never been in a denomination that only applied modesty rules to women. To me the NT spirit is opposite to "if you've got it - flaunt it".
Of course it is more applied to wealth that sex. But I suppose those who think boys should "deal with" any degree of provocative dress would also believe that, if you feel any feeling of resentment if you are poor and people flaunt their expensive clothes etc, you should just deal with it.
Of course - you should. But in a vibrant christian community i would argue you shouldn't have to.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Data on desire, NY Times, respectable but may not be worksafe. (Depending on your workplace.)
Bugger IOS copy/paste fail again - retry.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What you feel and think, in your own body and head, is fine. Whatever! But do not obtrude it upon us, the rest of the world. If you do, expect some reaction. Possibly negative.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Doc Tor, the difference is that female teenagers already are usually taught that they must deal with it, and deal with it by restraining themselves. The same is not true re male teenagers.
Not being female, but the father of daughters, and more informed than I'd like to be about the harassment end of things, it also appears to me that women and girls deal with an element of risk that boys and men do not.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Doc Tor, the difference is that female teenagers already are usually taught that they must deal with it, and deal with it by restraining themselves. The same is not true re male teenagers.
Not being female, but the father of daughters, and more informed than I'd like to be about the harassment end of things, it also appears to me that women and girls deal with an element of risk that boys and men do not.
Well, yes. But we were, at that point, discussing whether or not girls get turned on, and you, IIRC, suggested that involuntary hard-ons should be dealt with by physical violence to the male sex organs.
You may wish to reconsider your approach.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, yes. But we were, at that point, discussing whether or not girls get turned on, and you, IIRC, suggested that involuntary hard-ons should be dealt with by physical violence to the male sex organs.
You may wish to reconsider your approach.
Like the devil, proud uncontrolled adolescent hard-ons cannot endure to be mocked (with apologies to Thomas More). Thus, a verbal approach first, followed by further defence as required if the young man wishes to make use of said boner.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Slightly more nuanced, but why would a girl want to humiliate her dance partner/date? I'm not bringing up my daughter like that, any more than I'm bringing my son up like that.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Modesty is a case of to each his own. Unless you
are part of an organization/society that dictates
how one dresses , feels etc. I believe that most people have an sense of decency and won't go out their way to upset other people . OK there are some silly folk out there but I think they are the exception .
As for teenagers they will learn how to get on with each other without silliness. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I deliberately tried to set aside the teen-age problem (for both genders) of the huge chemical/hormonal rush that happens, and the unremitting thinking about things sexual.
My point was about supposed adults who have to harass females about "being available" or "being undesirable", who then move on to threats of physical violence if the female in question doesn't rise (sorry!) to the suggestion; or to the officious male or female who has to police what women look like, even if those officious persons are not (supposedly) involved in the sexual side of things.
Look, I can understand a priest or monk being uncomfortable with a woman who is consciously displaying her attractions. But said priest or monk should not be loudly proclaiming about what said woman might wear on the golf course (which has its own etiquette) or in the shopping mall.
Same way, why do Officious BusyBodies have the right to declare that a small area of bare shoulder is such fetish item that the girl carrying said shoulder must go and hide in shame? Is that not the problem of the OBB rather than the 16-y.o. who is trying to look mildly sophisticated? Yes, there was a hint that the girl had breasts, but so do the most modest daughters of fundamentalists.
Leave the kids alone, and tell me why adults can't be adult.
One could add that there are more serious problems about self-esteem and the public gaze than what mid-teenage kids do: try The People of WalMart
[ 03. February 2015, 23:20: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
My point was about supposed adults who have to harass females about "being available" or "being undesirable", who then move on to threats of physical violence if the female in question doesn't rise (sorry!) to the suggestion; or to the officious male or female who has to police what women look like, even if those officious persons are not (supposedly) involved in the sexual side of things.
In what country is this happening?
quote:
Same way, why do Officious BusyBodies have the right to declare that a small area of bare shoulder is such fetish item that the girl carrying said shoulder must go and hide in shame? Is that not the problem of the OBB rather than the 16-y.o. who is trying to look mildly sophisticated? Yes, there was a hint that the girl had breasts, but so do the most modest daughters of fundamentalists.
It was a school dance. The school has a dress code worked out by the community. If Officious Busybodies don't enforce the dress code, the students will push the boundaries further and further. Because that's what teens do. If you don't like the dress code, show up at the next school board meeting and have a review of it put on the agenda.
Personally I could do with seeing less plumber's crack and fewer men who deliberately wear their jeans under their butt (makes me want to go over and pull up their pants for them). Alas, apart from indecency laws, there's no dress code for life.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Seems that the girl was not aware that shoulders were sexual come-ons. No-one else anywhere I go would have thought so either. She was dressed in a way that would have been completely acceptable in 1955.
My concern is that SHE felt shamed, while the busybody got away with another reason to make people leave town as soon as they can.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
As a male, I find that male reactions to females are more strongly influenced by cultural factors rather than biological ones. It's what the male thinks when they look at women that controls the body's response, and that is what needs to change.
I have no patience with arguments that male urges can't be controlled. Over the years, from hanging out with old hippies, hot tub parties, clothing-optional beaches, or cooling off in a mountain stream, nudity has never been a big thing. At university my window overlooked the lawn where students studied and sunbathed in various states of undress, including full nudity. No big deal - I just thought of them as people who are making themselves comfortable, and their choice of clothing or lack thereof had nothing to do with me.
One family I knew always took their kids with them to the clothing-optional beach. About the time they were in their mid-teens they (boy and girl) asked if they could go to the regular beach instead - because that was where their friends were, regardless of clothing.
When men talk about women with no outside input or correction to reality, they often develop very distorted perspectives. This can be a group of teenagers who hang out after school, a religious group, or a country. It becomes acceptable, and in fact expected, to express specific views. When women are kept from participating in the national discussion, that drives it further, because it eliminates the most common source of correction back to reality.
So the problem isn't what women wear, it's what men think about women and how to relate to them, particularly when most of their "knowledge" about such things comes from discussions with other clueless men.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Well I've never been in a denomination that only applied modesty rules to women. To me the NT spirit is opposite to "if you've got it - flaunt it".
Of course it is more applied to wealth that sex. But I suppose those who think boys should "deal with" any degree of provocative dress would also believe that, if you feel any feeling of resentment if you are poor and people flaunt their expensive clothes etc, you should just deal with it.
Of course - you should. But in a vibrant christian community i would argue you shouldn't have to.
But what does that even mean? There exist no dress code which can effect such a statement. Not even a burqa with niqab.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Seems that the girl was not aware that shoulders were sexual come-ons. No-one else anywhere I go would have thought so either.
No one except you has said that shoulders are sexual come-ons.
quote:
She was dressed in a way that would have been completely acceptable in 1955.
And yet was in violation of her school's dress code.
quote:
My concern is that SHE felt shamed, while the busybody got away with another reason to make people leave town as soon as they can.
My concern is that apparently she can't read.
That or she believes the rules apply to everyone except for her and her feelings are the most important thing.
And the busybody didn't get away with anything. The busybody was doing their job.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
There certainly needs to be some standards of modesty. But I think the church should be restrained in hassling teenagers about it.
If you hassle teenagers about dressing like, well, teenagers you will just discredit yourself in their eyes . . . and with some justification.
I remember as a teen in the 70's (an immodest time if there ever was one) thinking that dressing the way us teens did was just normal. Anyone hassling us about it was out of it in my eyes.
Churches and their youth ministries should pick their battles. Trying to get teens to be prim and proper in their dress is usually a losing one.
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The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And we have a fine example in the world today of a religious group heavily policing the clothing of women. (Hi, Saudi Arabia!) Does it work well? Inspire emulation? In fact they are the bad example, worldwide, and any discussion of modesty in dress inevitably gets the word 'hijab' dropped in.
No, whatever we do, we don't want to do that.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It was more fun in the sixties and seventies. There were these fundamentalist preachers announcing that long hair on boys and men was the sign of Satan and that it would cause the human race to die out in an orgy of accidental homosexuality.
Apparently hair length was the only gender cue the ministers had figured out.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
And yet was in violation of her school's dress code.
She was? How? The code calls for straps not less than 2 inches wide over the shoulders. There's considerably more than 2 inches of fabric covering the area between that young woman's neck and her upper arms. No cleavage shows, no knees show; how is she in violation of the dress code?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
The first link in the OP says "The Lone Peak High School dress code states...that “girls’ dresses and tops must have a 2” minimum strap on each shoulder."
Question - are people here objecting to the existence of *any* high school dress code? Should girls be allowed to arrive topless and boys nude? Aren't the Mom's claims that people should be allowed to wear anything that makes them feel good, extreme? Is there no such thing as valid cultural standards for dress in public places?
But - the article says the dress did meet the two-inch strap rule. So how come the Mom's argument is about the existence of a dress code instead of about the doorkeeper's violating the dress code? Why isn't the Mom demanding the doorkeeper be fired and/or apologize effectively such as by a gift of tickets to a rock concert!
That the Mom is attacking a dress code she says the dress complied with instead of attacking those who invented their own code on the spot, makes me wonder if some personal battle underlies the publicity for the incident.
The article claims only girls, not boys, are told what to wear. That's not true in any family I know.
But also, I think there are two separate issues here getting jumbled together.
Modesty has social value apart from the question of sexual arousal or behavior. Different cultures have different standards, often changing by location, what is fine on a beach is not fine at the office. I agree some unfairly target women, but jumping to "there should be zero cultural dress expectations of modesty" (what some in this thread seem to be arguing) seems to me excessive.
I agree men need to keep their body parts to themselves, but also surely women can be aware of the male brain wiring to respond to visuals, and dress with courtesy. Life is not solely about "what makes me feel good."
(Personally I think the girl's dress lovely and very modest.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Slightly more nuanced, but why would a girl want to humiliate her dance partner/date? I'm not bringing up my daughter like that, any more than I'm bringing my son up like that.
It's more general than that context and boils down to one word. Rape. It changes everything.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
This all takes me back to schooldays when the elderly unmarried senior teacher called a girls' assembly and announced in hushed tones that the girls should take special care to wear the appropriate shoes to the school social. She wasn't talking about the height of the heels. Instead she warned against wearing shiny shoes with the dress as it was known that the boys would take the opportunity to look up the girls' dresses by gazing down at the shiny shoes. I'm afraid we all burst into shrieks of laughter and thus all received a detention and were banned from the social!
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Slightly more nuanced, but why would a girl want to humiliate her dance partner/date? I'm not bringing up my daughter like that, any more than I'm bringing my son up like that.
It's more general than that context and boils down to one word. Rape. It changes everything.
There's one hell of a jump between an INVOLUNTARY boner and an intention to rape, FFS.
Can I just reiterate that word INVOLUNTARY again because the subtext here appears to be that it's not. It's not like we're fitted with a hard-on muscle that we can flex or not according to our choice.
[ 04. February 2015, 07:04: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The decision to rape, on the other hand, is entirely voluntary. The idea that an unwanted erection in a dance is the first step towards rape, or even connected with any likelihood of rape, is a very disturbing vision of sexuality.
[ 04. February 2015, 07:22: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Having a (as far as I can tell) normal male libido is a f*cking nightmare. It gets a bit better as you get older, but I've heard conflicting reports as to whether it dies away to a blissful nothing, or stays with you as an unrequiteable hassle, into extreme old age. Can't wait to be rid of the f*cking thing.
Even at almost forty, unexpected boners are still a problem but rather that than impotence.
I think these things work both ways. People get turned on but that's no reason to be a pig. Likewise how we dress should fit the occasion, not sending signals we don't intend.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Slightly more nuanced, but why would a girl want to humiliate her dance partner/date? I'm not bringing up my daughter like that, any more than I'm bringing my son up like that.
It's more general than that context and boils down to one word. Rape. It changes everything.
So hang on. Since most teenage boys have involuntary erections (and can even ejaculate while they sleep), they must all be seen as potential rapists?
That's some fucked-up thinking.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
This reminds me of an incident when I was with my first wife (RIP) in a Baptist church one summer's day. One of the deacons commented on her skirt, suggesting that women's knees should be covered because they are distracting to some men.
My wife, as gracious as she always was, said she understood the problem, but didn't consider her skirt was too short. She then asked the deacon if he would wear gloves when serving the communion, because she found men's hands "very attractive"! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
On the old open-top trams, the upper deck originally had a simple railing around it. This disturbed Edwardian sensibilities (as ladies' ankles could be seen) so "modesty panels" were added.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Even at almost forty, unexpected boners are still a problem but rather that than impotence.
I'd be very happy with impotence and a truly dead libido, but I fear the bloody thing lives on in one's head long after the hydraulics cease to operate.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I've always thought guys should go back to wearing robes. It must be horrible having to deal with the embarrassing boner problem.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've always thought guys should go back to wearing robes. It must be horrible having to deal with the embarrassing boner problem.
I would have thought robes are worse. At least if you've got heans and tightish pants you can position it so that it hardly notices.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The Tudor fashion of codpieces is the way to go. Hides everything behind padding.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
While advertising there is something to hide though.
Dress codes are doomed ISTM since the more narrowly you define the line between decent/indecent, the more you eroticise the difference.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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