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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cemeteries, funerals, memorials, and getting along
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
That's interesting, Belle Ringer, maybe it's a pond thing. What I've seen happen here is that the coffin gets lowered, whereupon - if they wish - some of the relatives scoop up a handful of soil and throw it in on top of the coffin as a symbolic covering. They then leave for the gravediggers to continue their job.
It's not something I would personally like to do, but I guess it gives some people a sense of closure.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
Golden Key mentioned a Viking boat burning funeral.
One evening a few years ago I met a lady whose father had been cremated. She was just taking a few minutes out of the pub where they were having the wake. She told me that her father had been the first person to start a canoe hire business on the River Wye. When they collected the ashes from the crematorium, they took them down to the river, where they put the ashes in a miniature canoe and set it adrift "and he's still going down to the sea," she said.
I thought that was a lovely way to see a loved one off.
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Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I've seen the "leave the coffin beside the grave and walk away" thing, and I've seen the other extreme--one horrifying one where the cemetery workers showed up with a major yellow earthmoving monster machine and starting roaring around shoving dirt into the hole while dozens of mourners hadn't made it to the cars yet! Seriously, it looked like a mechanical rodeo.
I had to comfort the dead man's daughter on that occasion as she was freaking out. Give me a couple guys with a hand shovel any time.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish. I want a Jewish style burial - simple casket, participatory for any who want to participate. Lots of cemeteries seem opposed.
And no messing about with embalming fluid. I'll be dead. My body will either be burned to ash, or put in the ground to decay. It doesn't need preservatives.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'd back-up on what Qoheleth said: check with the local authority that the operator is keeping within the rules.
There is starting to be a problem because more people are putting keepsakes into coffins - and unless they are known about and either are easily combustible or are removed before cremation these can cause problems - and that's before you get onto things like unknown cardiac pacemakers. For example, a home counties crematorium recently had a cremator put out of action by the explosion of a coffin that was later discovered to contain an early mobile telephone and battery pack.
You may also find that your local crematorium starts to cremate at 8am - because with the time taken for full disposal it can be that those with a ceremony at 4 or 4.30pm they aren't cremated until the next morning. Its all perfectly OK and above board: cremation takes about 2½ hours and so a busy crematorium - even with 3 or 4 cremators - is going to experience delays.
Apologies Eutychus - I was (still am) offended at being accused of callousness or indifference.
Mudfrog: apologies but perhaps you were (are?) less than detached in this instance because of your personal emotional involvement?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I've done that in the context of several Christian funerals, including my nephew and my father. The funeral directors even have a special box of almost-dry peat ready. But as symbolism goes, it provides a very strong post-funeral salve against believing they aren't really dead.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish.
I've done that in the context of several Christian funerals, including my nephew and my father. The funeral directors even have a special box of almost-dry peat ready. But as symbolism goes, it provides a very strong post-funeral salve against believing they aren't really dead.
This has happened at every burial at which I have officiated.
The coffin is carried to the grave and placed on poles across the hole, then as the mourners gather, the supports are removed and the coffin is lowered on straps until it rests at the bottom. Sometimes I've seen the 'lowering party' include one of two of the mourners The undertakers then withdraw, sometimes the family throw flowers down onto the coffin and I step forward to read the committal service. When that is finished, the undertaker offers the already-mentioned box of earth and everyone who wishes, drops a handful onto the coffin before walking a way again.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Apologies Eutychus - I was (still am) offended at being accused of callousness or indifference.
Mudfrog: apologies but perhaps you were (are?) less than detached in this instance because of your personal emotional involvement?
Your (qualified) apology is noted: but so is your continued attempt to thrash out this bone of contention on this thread.
To spell it out, if Mudfrog was playing with Commandment 3, you are infringing Commandment 4: quote:
If you must get personal, take it to Hell
If you get into a personality conflict with other shipmates, you have two simple choices: end the argument or take it to Hell.
If you want to pursue this anywhere on the boards, your only option is and always has been Hell.
If you want to dispute this host ruling, you can do so in the Styx.
Any more posts from anyone here referring back to this spat will be kicked adminwards forthwith.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish.
I've done that in the context of several Christian funerals, including my nephew and my father. The funeral directors even have a special box of almost-dry peat ready. But as symbolism goes, it provides a very strong post-funeral salve against believing they aren't really dead.
In my experience, it's a very regional thing. In some places, it's a given. In other places, it's never done.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
This has happened at every burial at which I have officiated.
The coffin is carried to the grave and placed on poles across the hole, then as the mourners gather, the supports are removed and the coffin is lowered on straps until it rests at the bottom. Sometimes I've seen the 'lowering party' include one of two of the mourners The undertakers then withdraw, sometimes the family throw flowers down onto the coffin and I step forward to read the committal service. When that is finished, the undertaker offers the already-mentioned box of earth and everyone who wishes, drops a handful onto the coffin before walking a way again.
That's the kind of procedure I am most familiar with, with the exception that (as I have already indicated) the throwing of dirt tends to be a regional thing. In some places, it is routinely done by the Funeral Director alone.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I have to admit that what Mudfrog describes is what I thought was universal for a burial. It's quite a surprise to hear that in other parts of the world this is done differently and that there are parts of this country where the mourners do not themselves cast the earth onto the coffin.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
It was certainly common in Yorkshire. But in parts of central South England, I was surprised that it didn't happen, although the strewing of flowers was usual. I wonder if this is starting to replace the scattering of dirt, as a more "acceptable" action?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The only funeral where we got to drop a handful or shovel of dirt on the casket in the hole was Jewish. I want a Jewish style burial - simple casket, participatory for any who want to participate. Lots of cemeteries seem opposed.
And no messing about with embalming fluid. I'll be dead. My body will either be burned to ash, or put in the ground to decay. It doesn't need preservatives.
Some state governments require embalming if the body is not either buried or cremated in a short time ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Wasn't there a lot of lobbying from the funeral business associations in the mid-C20 to get that sort of law passed? Long time since I've read Jessica Mitford, mind.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Wasn't there a lot of lobbying from the funeral business associations in the mid-C20 to get that sort of law passed? Long time since I've read Jessica Mitford, mind.
The American practice of "embalming" came into fashion during the War between The States, when thousands of soldiers died far from home, but the loved ones wanted their bodies returned home for burial …
A body upon death begins to decompose in a very short time, with attendant problems of odor, leaking fluids, and nasty bacteria …
Some morgues and funeral homes have sufficient refrigeration facilities to keep a FEW bodies without embalming … but in general, the public health rule calls for relatively quick disposal of remains, some how or other ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Mudfrog re the words. If it was a CofE funeral then they are the correct words for the committal even at the crematorium.
Fair enough. I don't go to many CofE services.
I do prefer ours though ('the elements').
There is a bit of a choice with the CofE funeral, when it comes to crem funerals, thus:
(from the CofE funeral service)
in a crematorium, if the Committal is to follow at the Burial of the Ashes
We have entrusted our brother/sister N to God's mercy,
and now, in preparation for burial,
we give his/her body to be cremated.
We look for the fullness of the resurrection
when Christ shall gather all his saints
to reign with him in glory for ever.
All
Amen.
(or)
in a crematorium, if the Committal is to take place then
We have entrusted our brother/sister N to God's mercy,
and we now commit his/her body to be cremated:
earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust:
in sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life etc
Some ministers - not all perhaps - might even consult the next of kin as to which they'd prefer. There are other prayers of committal and commendation, too, which might be alternatively used for crem funerals.
The smoke from the chimney is understandably an upsetting thing, if it's so obvious. As other have said, Crems are under very tight rules about visible emissions, and are - or should be - very closely regulated. Certainly their neighbours are very vigilant about such things!
It would also be natural to think to oneself 'that's Uncle Fred' or 'there goes Auntie Jean'. But because of the length of time it actually takes to incinerate a body, it would normally, I believe, take a few days to complete the disposal of even one day's worth of funerals. So even if there hadn't been a funeral earlier that day, the likelihood of there being absolutely nothing left from the previous day or two to complete, would be slim, in my opinion. Not saying it's impossible, mind!
I'm intrigued by Belle Ringer's experience that few funerals she's known, concerning burials, involve people watching the lowering into the ground. Even burial of ashes incorporates this for the mourners, should they wish to bury, rather than scatter. And graveside burials are surely almost completely redundant as a pastoral or logical exercise without the lowering? I still miss the West Cork burials where all the young men - and the occasional woman - grab the spade and get stuck in.
The lowering is a powerful and cathartic moment for many. And I'd say, it's hard to make sense of the 'earth to earth' liturgy, in the context of being in a graveyard, without it.
Mind you, graveside traditions have changed so much since even I was a kid. When my granda was buried, only the men went to the graveside. But that hasn't been the case for several decades now. And, in fact, some people only ever attend the graveside committal ceremony, in preference to the church!
The only times I've been aware that we've all walked away, turning our backs on the coffin, just sitting there, were with crem funerals, where the next of kin had requested the curtain to remain unclosed, and therefore to leave the coffin visible. It's never seemed 'right' to me - not that that matters, of course! - somehow unfinished, unclosed business, left undone. Another reason why lowering is, perhaps, so psychologically important - seeing the dirt go onto the coffin, the beginning of the end, as it were.
The most recent funeral I attended was as a member of our parish church choir, singing at the funeral of a much-loved, long-standing member of the church. This choir - along with other parish church choirs I've been part of - will try to 'put on a choir' for funerals of that nature - usually FOC. I think one church choir I belonged to did occasionally 'do' funerals, too, for money. But it nearly always went into choir funds.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
In the US, the law requires that if a body is to be moved from one state to another by public transportation, e.g. plane or train, the body must be embalmed.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
My father died in December last year. I knew him as an agnostic, humanist, Muslim. He had asked for "a Christian burial". We had Requiem Mass, followed by the committal. It was very well attended by Catholics, Muslims and people of other or no faiths, and was as much of a comfort as a funeral ever can be.
Yes, it is difficult to reconcile the many different beliefs people have about what happens to us after this part of our life ends, and what that means for our mortal remains. But with love, and with God, anything is possible.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
you know, it would never occur to me to be upset by seeing smoke after a cremation service for a loved one. I would have expected it (I'd be surprised by the timing, and perhaps assume it was the preceeding person, assuming I had the emotional strength to think about it at all). Of course, reading that someone WAS upset, I woudln't presume to say that person shoudln't have been (they have to right to be upset if that's how they feel), just that I personally wouldn't react that way, or even THINK that someone would react that way. I guess for me cremation=burning=smoke. Of course, in my religious tradition cremation is frowned upon anyway, but my sister was cremated none the less (following the usual funeral services except the graveside service). I wasn't at the crematorium and didn't give it much thought. frankly, didn't occur to me to go there. I suppose once she was loaded into the back of the hearse, and I knew there was not going to be a graveside service, I kind of assumed that was the end.. I didn't even think that attending the actual cremation was an option... so my views are obviously very un-informed.
As far as the questions in the OP, my experience has been separate sections within a cemetery (or a separate cemetery) for various religious groups. My father, however, is burred in a military cemetery, where the the order of who is burred where and next to whom is based purely on the order they come in (spouses burred one on top of the other, so the grave side is determined by the spouse that passed away first). This is a relatively new cemetary. anyhow, the priest did have to let them know that he had to bless the gravesite (since it wasn't a desegnated Orthdox site), and they seemed surprised by that, which I thought odd, since surely other faiths also require "consecrated ground"? anyhow, the request was granted.
As far as "extreme" requests.. I suppose it would depend upon how extreme. I'd want to carry out the wishes of the deceased to the extent reasonably possible.
Regarding death among people with very different practices, I would think that, just like in the above situation, the practices/wishes of the deceased should be complied with as much as possible. I mean, if someone died here whose normal practice is for funeral attendees to eat their body after, I'd say no. but if it's just a matter of which prayers are said.. well, why not?
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
In the US, the law requires that if a body is to be moved from one state to another by public transportation, e.g. plane or train, the body must be embalmed.
Moo
Same in Canada. It made for very few cremations when the only crematorium was in the next province. A few years ago now a crematorium opened and it is quite a bit more common to have cremations.
Services are held in chapels of funeral homes and churches though, with the cremains often displayed in an urn or small wooden casket with a nice photo of the deceased.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
It would also be natural to think to oneself 'that's Uncle Fred' or 'there goes Auntie Jean'. But because of the length of time it actually takes to incinerate a body, it would normally, I believe, take a few days to complete the disposal of even one day's worth of funerals.
In Britain, cremation has to take place within 24 hours. However - and contrary to what most people seem to think - the casket with the deceased does not go straight from the chapel into the cremator
(I once saw a murder mystery on the TV, in which the police realised that a crucial piece of evidence had been placed inside the coffin. So they went zooming up the drive, charged into the chapel and cried out "Stop!" just as the coffin was disappearing through the doors. In real life, all they would have needed to do is ask the office staff to take them into the room where the coffin would go, prior to cremation. But that wouldn't have been so dramatic).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
The only times I've been aware that we've all walked away, turning our backs on the coffin, just sitting there, were with crem funerals, where the next of kin had requested the curtain to remain unclosed, and therefore to leave the coffin visible. It's never seemed 'right' to me - not that that matters, of course! - somehow unfinished, unclosed business, left undone.
My feeling, too - though I know that others can't stand those curtains!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Re:lowering the coffin. The practice here is that 8 mourners are chosen to "take a cord" The funeral director tells them which number they are, and sometimes hands out numbered cards. At the graveside the undertaker calls out "no.1" and no.1. steps forward and so on. It's an honour to be asked to take a cord.
It used to be the custom that only men "took a cord" but that's dying out. I took a cord at my grandfather's funeral, when I was 8 months pregnant. It was a comforting juxtaposition to be feeling my unborn child's kicks, whilst helping to lower my grandfather's coffin.
At our stillborn son's funeral, my husband and I lowered his coffin; obviously only two of us were needed for such a small coffin.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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