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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Men and Women
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
childcare,
The job that men have traditionally avoided and women had no choice in? Yes, men are often shorted in this area, but that is because they have spent so much effort in defining it as a female job.
Interestingly, one of my colleagues observed that the fastest way to move a church towards acceptance of women in leadership positions was to begin to include men in the nursery rotation.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But I don't generally find it helpful to think in terms of 'who has it easier'? I'm more interested in looking at the challenges people face and the barriers to their success and how those barriers can be removed in a way that's fair to everyone.
I would see a balanced world for all. But the imbalances must be recognised, talked about, before they can be adjusted.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
childcare,
The job that men have traditionally avoided and women had no choice in? Yes, men are often shorted in this area, but that is because they have spent so much effort in defining it as a female job.
You see, I'm with you pretty much all the way, and then you say something like that.
The men who are 'shorted' in this area are not the ones who define it as a female job. Quite the reverse. And you've probably never felt the quiet antagonism and/or open suspicion from school-gate mothers by being the only bloke who's a full-time carer.
Many men have - talking to my own father - wanted to spend more time with their children but are trapped in long-hour employment and social hostility to men in caring roles. Thankfully, even in the short time since my kids were born, there seems to have been a sea-change in attitudes.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Again, it's overcome-able, but comprises an additional hurdle for women that men in the same role do not have to worry about.
Is there any point in me mentioning the many roles in which the same problem exists but with the sexes reversed? Roles such as teaching, nursing/midwifery, childcare, etc?
Both sexes have to face additional hurdles in some areas of their lives, but for some reason that's only seen as a problem when women are the ones facing them. Which is, in itself, an extra hurdle that men have to face...
Does anyone else think that the extent to which child-related occupations tend to be "female" creates a lack of role models for boys? Most of the occupations my kids interacted with when they were growing up were done by women; their teachers, librarians, GP, school nurse, dentist, optician, physiotherapist etc were all female. Of course they knew that their father and other male relatives / friends / neighbours had jobs (often very well paid jobs!) but the working world with which they interacted was female.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
childcare,
The job that men have traditionally avoided and women had no choice in? Yes, men are often shorted in this area, but that is because they have spent so much effort in defining it as a female job.
You see, I'm with you pretty much all the way, and then you say something like that.
The men who are 'shorted' in this area are not the ones who define it as a female job. Quite the reverse. And you've probably never felt the quiet antagonism and/or open suspicion from school-gate mothers by being the only bloke who's a full-time carer.
Many men have - talking to my own father - wanted to spend more time with their children but are trapped in long-hour employment and social hostility to men in caring roles. Thankfully, even in the short time since my kids were born, there seems to have been a sea-change in attitudes.
Both perspectives are probably true here.
Since my husband is our kids' prime caretaker and I'm juggling 2 jobs, we have asked the boys' schools to make him their primary contact. We put his email address and cell number as the primary contact. But of course, we have to give mine as well in case of an emergency. So we find that no matter how many times we tell them that, whenever they want to send an email or phone about anything-- from needing volunteers for the next field trip to donating goodies for the bake sale-- it is invariably my email or phone they use. Somehow they can't seem to comprehend even in this day and age that hubby will be the one who to contact.
[ 21. February 2015, 13:44: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Both perspectives are true and Doc Tor's experience in no way contradicts my statement.
Men, as well as women, have fallen victim to the stereotype of women being the better carers.
Women often look suspiciously at males in the carer role.
Neither fact invalidates the initial point. That men, as a group, created the inequity that also happens to cause backlash against individual men. And that it does not create the solid counter example MtM appeared to be aiming for.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
We have to acknowledge, however, that we are living with the legacy of (some) men's past actions and attitudes.
But perhaps I believe I'm less oppressed by a patriarchy defined by their maleness as I do by a patriarchy defined by their class.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Ahem. Something that is the main cause of death of men between ages of 20 and 49 is not a 'rare event'.
Yes, it is. Men aged between 20 and 49 dying is a rare event. From your link, there were about 2,000 male deaths from suicide in a year in that age range. There are 22 million men in the UK in that age range. That makes the rate of male suicide one in 10,000.
Drawing conclusions about the bulk of the male population from the behaviour of the 0.01% most suicidal is flawed.
(Suppose that people who commit suicide are the most unhappy, for some definition of happy. The fact that there are more male suicides tells you almost nothing about whether men or women are, on average, happier - it could equally be that men have a greater variation in happiness.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
We have to acknowledge, however, that we are living with the legacy of (some) men's past actions and attitudes.
But perhaps I believe I'm less oppressed by a patriarchy defined by their maleness as I do by a patriarchy defined by their class.
That never all men were tools? Agreed. That it is purely legacy....no.
Privilege is tiered and we more often look up than down.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Ahem. Something that is the main cause of death of men between ages of 20 and 49 is not a 'rare event'.
Yes, it is. Men aged between 20 and 49 dying is a rare event. From your link, there were about 2,000 male deaths from suicide in a year in that age range. There are 22 million men in the UK in that age range. That makes the rate of male suicide one in 10,000.
But when you consider that, in the 20-34 age bracket, 26% of the roughly 3500 deaths in one year were due to suicide, it works out at 60 suicides per year per birth-year. Someone entering at age twenty will have 900 deaths in their birth-year cohort alone by the time they reach 34. Moving on to 49 (at almost 90 suicides per year per birth-year), that'll stack up to 2,100 in their birth-year cohort. Dividing 20 million men (aged 15-64) by 50 to give a value of men per birth-year gives (very roughly) 400,000. So, in each birth-year cohort of 400,000, 2100 of men who are 20 will have killed themselves by the time they reach 50. That's 1 in every 190 of them.
To put slightly more briefly, in a room of 200 twenty-year olds, of the seven who are going to die before they're 50, one will have killed themselves.
So yes, I consider that statistically significant.
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Forward the New Republic
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I think all this can be summed up with-- our society makes it hard for men and women to simply be people, and it uses gambits of power and privelege to do tbat to men, and marginilization to do that to women. But the goal for both is the same-- chronic dissatisfaction that leads to chronic spending. Both sexes are told, in one way or another, that they can never do, be, or have enough.
Therefore, this whole " who has it worse" debate makes me squirm. As the posts above demonstate, even those with " privelege" wind up paying for it somehow. We need to help each other out.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think all this can be summed up with-- our society makes it hard for men and women to simply be people, and it uses gambits of power and privelege to do tbat to men, and marginilization to do that to women. But the goal for both is the same-- chronic dissatisfaction that leads to chronic spending. Both sexes are told, in one way or another, that they can never do, be, or have enough.
Therefore, this whole " who has it worse" debate makes me squirm. As the posts above demonstate, even those with " privelege" wind up paying for it somehow. We need to help each other out.
This.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Ahem. Something that is the main cause of death of men between ages of 20 and 49 is not a 'rare event'.
Yes, it is. Men aged between 20 and 49 dying is a rare event. From your link, there were about 2,000 male deaths from suicide in a year in that age range. There are 22 million men in the UK in that age range. That makes the rate of male suicide one in 10,000.
But when you consider that, in the 20-34 age bracket, 26% of the roughly 3500 deaths in one year were due to suicide, it works out at 60 suicides per year per birth-year. Someone entering at age twenty will have 900 deaths in their birth-year cohort alone by the time they reach 34. Moving on to 49 (at almost 90 suicides per year per birth-year), that'll stack up to 2,100 in their birth-year cohort. Dividing 20 million men (aged 15-64) by 50 to give a value of men per birth-year gives (very roughly) 400,000. So, in each birth-year cohort of 400,000, 2100 of men who are 20 will have killed themselves by the time they reach 50. That's 1 in every 190 of them.
To put slightly more briefly, in a room of 200 twenty-year olds, of the seven who are going to die before they're 50, one will have killed themselves.
So yes, I consider that statistically significant.
200 twenty-year olds. At my secondary school in the early 1970s there were about 1,700 boys and girls between 11 and 18. I wonder how many of them committed suicide?
That makes it significant.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And you've probably never felt the quiet antagonism and/or open suspicion from school-gate mothers by being the only bloke who's a full-time carer.
Around here the suspicion sometimes comes in contact with pedophilia hysteria and results in the police being called (this seems especially likely to happen in mixed race families). Apparently we have not come far enough as a society that everyone can imagine that a father might spend an afternoon at the park with his kids without their mother being present.
quote:
Originally posted by lilbuddha:
That men, as a group, created the inequity that also happens to cause backlash against individual men.
What's your evidence that men, as a group, created this situation as opposed to it being the product of the biological realities of a world in which widespread access to reliable birth control is a relatively recent phenomenon?
That society only values that which it rewards with money, and that it monetarily rewards people in direct proportion to how much they are valued is not an idea that everyone accepts.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It seems to me that ordinary men have an ill-defined place in the modern Western world. Yes, powerful men retain their hold on power. But whereas a woman retains her femininity whether she's economically weak or strong, a weak man has fewer and fewer options for holding on to his masculinity.
The indigenous working class in the UK has partly collapsed as an entity because there are so few jobs that less educated men can and want to do that will enable them to support a family. For many women, it makes more sense to rely on the state for funds and support to raise their children than to rely on a man towards the bottom of the pile whose employment options are poor. It's probably easier for the women than men at that level to find jobs. So who needs those men?
But yes, rich, powerful men will almost always be unassailable.
[ 21. February 2015, 16:30: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by lilbuddha:
That men, as a group, created the inequity that also happens to cause backlash against individual men.
What's your evidence that men, as a group, created this situation as opposed to it being the product of the biological realities of a world in which widespread access to reliable birth control is a relatively recent phenomenon?
OK. Yes, men being dominate is due to initial conditions. But the birth control thing is partially off-base. Rich women had the option of minimising their participation in the raising of children yet still suffered inequities. And no was always an answer, but it was not considered acceptable. Birth control may have helped the cause, but it didn't start it.
Men had the power early and kept it. Not because they are evil or any more selfish than women, but because of Newton's First Law of Social Dynamics.*
Change is like rolling an irregular rock on flat ground.
-One push isn't enough
-Left alone it will stop.
*unless acted upon by an Outside Influence, Those who have power tend to stay in power and those without power tend to be fucked.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
To put slightly more briefly, in a room of 200 twenty-year olds, of the seven who are going to die before they're 50, one will have killed themselves.
So yes, I consider that statistically significant.
I agree that men are more likely to kill themselves than women. I'm not disputing that in any way.
I am disputing the claim that you can conclude anything much about the happiness of men as a whole based on the behaviour of the 1 in 300 (I got a slightly different number than you, but the difference isn't important) of men who will commit suicide before age 50.
We can safely conclude that the distribution of suicidalness amongst men is different from the distribution of suicidalness amongst women (in particular, there are more men than women in the suicidal tail). We cannot conclude that the average man is less happy than the average woman.
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
OK. Yes, men being dominate is due to initial conditions. But the birth control thing is partially off-base. Rich women had the option of minimising their participation in the raising of children yet still suffered inequities.
Doesn't everyone suffer iniquities (sin, wickedness)?
quote:
And no was always an answer, but it was not considered acceptable. Birth control may have helped the cause, but it didn't start it.
Men had the power early and kept it. Not because they are evil or any more selfish than women, but because of Newton's First Law of Social Dynamics.*
Change is like rolling an irregular rock on flat ground.
-One push isn't enough
-Left alone it will stop.
*unless acted upon by an Outside Influence, Those who have power tend to stay in power and those without power tend to be fucked.
This is so vague and confused that I can't reply. What exactly are you referring to when you refer to "the power"?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
*unless acted upon by an Outside Influence, Those who have power tend to stay in power and those without power tend to be fucked.
So yes. I'd argue that patriarchy was/is a manifestation of class, and that our primary conflict is one of class, not gender.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
*unless acted upon by an Outside Influence, Those who have power tend to stay in power and those without power tend to be fucked.
So yes. I'd argue that patriarchy was/is a manifestation of class, and that our primary conflict is one of class, not gender.
If that were true we wouldn't see inter-class patriarchy, but in fact, we do. Quite a lot, as a matter of fact.
Rather, the prior observation is the one at play here: those with power do not give it up easily. In our society, power has traditionally been held by people who are wealthy, those who are educated, those who are white, those who are beautiful (or tall), and those who are male. So the power dynamic between any two individuals may be a function of more than one of those factors, sometimes inversely. But I would not say that class always trumps gender.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
In our society, power has traditionally been held by people who are wealthy,
Class quote:
those who are educated,
Class quote:
those who are white,
UK society was majority white, so that's not an historical indicator. It's more likely to whether you're indigenously British quote:
those who are beautiful (or tall),
Function of diet, and therefore class quote:
and those who are male.
Not class.
quote:
So the power dynamic between any two individuals may be a function of more than one of those factors, sometimes inversely. But I would not say that class always trumps gender.
Not always, I would agree. But I'm struggling to think of a normal situation where a working class man is in a position to tell an upper class women what to do.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
]Not always, I would agree. But I'm struggling to think of a normal situation where a working class man is in a position to tell an upper class women what to do.
I'm struggling to think of a situation where he is not. Pretty much the only situation where an upper class woman would have the upper hand would be when she is able to draw upon some institutional authority-- for example if she is the doctor and the man is her patient, or a female professor with a male student. But that just goes to what I was saying before-- that there is not a single differential (class) but multiple differentials of varying strengths. Positional power is another differential, one that is affected by gender (see my prior link) as well as other factors, but also may trump them.
Although some of our differences in the way we're perceiving this may have to do with cultural differences between US and UK. There are certainly powerful class differentials in the US, but the way they interact with other differentials might be different than in the UK.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
]Not always, I would agree. But I'm struggling to think of a normal situation where a working class man is in a position to tell an upper class women what to do.
I'm struggling to think of a situation where he is not.
Boss - employee
Doctor - patient
Owner - labourer
Teacher - student
Witness - suspect
Rich diner - poor server
I could go on. In almost every social and economic transaction, U has the upper hand over non-U, whether or not U is male or female.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But I would not say that class always trumps gender.
Change 'always' to 'usually' and it's a statement I've made frequently.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
]Not always, I would agree. But I'm struggling to think of a normal situation where a working class man is in a position to tell an upper class women what to do.
I'm struggling to think of a situation where he is not.
Boss - employee
Doctor - patient
Owner - labourer
Teacher - student
Witness - suspect
Rich diner - poor server
I could go on. In almost every social and economic transaction, U has the upper hand over non-U, whether or not U is male or female.
But every single one of your examples is an example of positional authority-- the exact differential I went on to describe as trumping gender.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But I would not say that class always trumps gender.
Change 'always' to 'usually' and it's a statement I've made frequently.
I'm not sure whether you're saying my statement (the class does NOT trump gender) is the one you state frequently or the reverse (class DOES trump gender). I would agree it was unwise for me to say "always"-- "usually" is more accurate.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Not always, I would agree. But I'm struggling to think of a normal situation where a working class man is in a position to tell an upper class women what to do.
I'm struggling to think of a situation where he is not.
An example?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But I would not say that class always trumps gender.
Change 'always' to 'usually' and it's a statement I've made frequently.
I'm not sure whether you're saying my statement (the class does NOT trump gender) is the one you state frequently or the reverse (class DOES trump gender). I would agree it was unwise for me to say "always"-- "usually" is more accurate.
Sorry. I was trying to counter your statement that you would not say something with the fact that I would (and have).
I'm saying that class usually trumps gender.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Not always, I would agree. But I'm struggling to think of a normal situation where a working class man is in a position to tell an upper class women what to do.
I'm struggling to think of a situation where he is not.
An example?
See my prior examples re gender disparity in academia and the pastorate, which in my experience have very much transcended class and income distinctions.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But every single one of your examples is an example of positional authority-- the exact differential I went on to describe as trumping gender.
And it's a differential caused by class, not gender.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
So, you are saying women are a different class?
Because women and men, in the same economic class recieve different treatment.
[ 21. February 2015, 20:25: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But every single one of your examples is an example of positional authority-- the exact differential I went on to describe as trumping gender.
And it's a differential caused by class, not gender.
No, it's not. It's a differential defined by position. It changes depending on the circumstance. A female doctor may have authority over a patient-- but when the examination is over and they're both out on the street, the dynamic shifts. Your server/customer example holds true regardless of the economic class of the customer-- and again, shifts when the roles change.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Not always, I would agree. But I'm struggling to think of a normal situation where a working class man is in a position to tell an upper class women what to do.
I'm struggling to think of a situation where he is not.
An example?
See my prior examples re gender disparity in academia and the pastorate, which in my experience have very much transcended class and income distinctions.
But those aren't examples of a working class man being in a position to tell an upper class woman what to do.
It's true that both academia and the pastorate are traditionally male professions, but they are also traditionally upper class professions.
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Where a working class male can tell an upper class woman what to do.
Security guard - patron of establishment
However a working class female nurse can tell an upper class man what to do.
Jengie
[ 21. February 2015, 20:30: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But those aren't examples of a working class man being in a position to tell an upper class woman what to do.
It's true that both academia and the pastorate are traditionally male professions, but they are also traditionally upper class professions.
But that's the point-- in my examples gender is working against class, demonstrating that gender is a more influential factor. The female professor or pastor has both positional authority and an elite class, but (as shown in my earlier link) that is trumped by their gender.
[ 21. February 2015, 20:39: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No, it's not. It's a differential defined by position. It changes depending on the circumstance. A female doctor may have authority over a patient-- but when the examination is over and they're both out on the street, the dynamic shifts. Your server/customer example holds true regardless of the economic class of the customer-- and again, shifts when the roles change.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the dynamic ceases to be, since generally speaking the classes have no contact outside these relationships where the upper class have positional authority?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No, it's not. It's a differential defined by position. It changes depending on the circumstance. A female doctor may have authority over a patient-- but when the examination is over and they're both out on the street, the dynamic shifts. Your server/customer example holds true regardless of the economic class of the customer-- and again, shifts when the roles change.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the dynamic ceases to be, since generally speaking the classes have no contact outside these relationships where the upper class have positional authority?
There are situations where they would still have contact-- riding on public transport, say, or standing in line for a movie or restaurant.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But those aren't examples of a working class man being in a position to tell an upper class woman what to do.
It's true that both academia and the pastorate are traditionally male professions, but they are also traditionally upper class professions.
But that's the point-- in my examples gender is working against class, demonstrating that gender is a more influential factor. The female professor or pastor has both positional authority and an elite class, but (as shown in my earlier link) that is trumped by their gender.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
But your examples don't illustrate that point at all.
An academic and a pastor are in the upper class by virtue of their profession. A woman may be treated differently than a man by their students or their congregation (who may or may not share their class but are in a positional lower rank) according to their expectations of how both women and men act and how people in that position of authority act.
But that in now way demonstrates that gender trumps class.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No, it's not. It's a differential defined by position. It changes depending on the circumstance. A female doctor may have authority over a patient-- but when the examination is over and they're both out on the street, the dynamic shifts. Your server/customer example holds true regardless of the economic class of the customer-- and again, shifts when the roles change.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the dynamic ceases to be, since generally speaking the classes have no contact outside these relationships where the upper class have positional authority?
There are situations where they would still have contact-- riding on public transport, say, or standing in line for a movie or restaurant.
And a working class man (one not currently working as a security guard or usher or something) would have the authority to tell an upper class woman what to do in these scenarios?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
]And a working class man (one not currently working as a security guard or usher or something) would have the authority to tell an upper class woman what to do in these scenarios?
Nothing so blatant. In most Western culture, no one w/o positional authority has the authority to tell anyone else what to do. But (again, see study linked early on) a man is given a more default authority in such a situation-- they are listened to, followed, deferred to, more than women.
Again, the strongest evidence against your argument are the two examples I quoted from academia and pastorate where the woman has both positional authority and class hierarchy but is still not afforded default authority because of her gender.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But those aren't examples of a working class man being in a position to tell an upper class woman what to do.
It's true that both academia and the pastorate are traditionally male professions, but they are also traditionally upper class professions.
But that's the point-- in my examples gender is working against class, demonstrating that gender is a more influential factor. The female professor or pastor has both positional authority and an elite class, but (as shown in my earlier link) that is trumped by their gender.
But your examples don't illustrate that point at all.
An academic and a pastor are in the upper class by virtue of their profession. A woman may be treated differently than a man by their students or their congregation (who may or may not share their class but are in a positional lower rank) according to their expectations of how both women and men act and how people in that position of authority act.
But that in now way demonstrates that gender trumps class.
Doesn't it? A female pastor or professor has both positional authority and class hierarchy, but (as per the study cited above) not given the benefit of the default positional authority given to a male in the same profession. How is that not an example of gender trumping both class and positional authority?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Could you try linking to the study again? The original link takes me to an Amazon page advertising a book about what the best college students do, not a study I might be able to read.*
Though most studies just summarize findings and don't give you useful info about things like methodology or the actual questions asked.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Doesn't it? A female pastor or professor has both positional authority and class hierarchy, but (as per the study cited above) not given the benefit of the default positional authority given to a male in the same profession. How is that not an example of gender trumping both class and positional authority?
In order for it to be an example of gender trumping both class and positional authority, you would have to demonstrate that the students gave more default authority to a working class man who was a member of the class than to the female professor.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Could you try linking to the study again? The original link takes me to an Amazon page advertising a book about what the best college students do, not a study I might be able to read.*
Though most studies just summarize findings and don't give you useful info about things like methodology or the actual questions asked.
Sorry, that's the best I can do without spending more time then I'm prepared to do. The book is a study of best practices for college professors, based on the authors' research. The methodology is detailed in the book. There might be an abstract somewhere or an academic journal article by the authors detailing the study.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Doesn't it? A female pastor or professor has both positional authority and class hierarchy, but (as per the study cited above) not given the benefit of the default positional authority given to a male in the same profession. How is that not an example of gender trumping both class and positional authority?
In order for it to be an example of gender trumping both class and positional authority, you would have to demonstrate that the students gave more default authority to a working class man who was a member of the class than to the female professor.
That would be another way to demonstrate it. But the fact that a man of equal position and class is given greater default authority does demonstrate that gender overrides position and class distinctions, at least in college classrooms.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Ah, yes, the old 'educate yourself' but what I'm saying is true because trick.
If you really believe your examples demonstrate what you say they demonstrate, then we're not even speaking the same language and there's no point in us having any further conversation.
That's not a [whatever you're going to accuse me of], it's a statement of fact.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I worked with a straight man who was mildly* homophobic. Towards gay men at any rate. He was a nice person overall, treated women well.
We would trade insults as a form of comradery. I could insult his sexuality, his manliness, virility, just about anything. One day I said to him "Yes, ma'am". The change in his demeanor was fascinating. He was visibly upset. There was no class difference, no difference in authority.
Why, oh why, did he freak?
BTW, I repeated this as an experiment with other men. Same result a shocking number of times.
*Really just mildly. At the level he did not recognise it.
[ 21. February 2015, 22:50: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Ah, yes, the old 'educate yourself' but what I'm saying is true because trick.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
If you really believe your examples demonstrate what you say they demonstrate, then we're not even speaking the same language and there's no point in us having any further conversation.
Well, obviously I do believe they demonstrate that, otherwise I wouldn't have brought them up. Not as neatly as a more controlled double-blind study such as you're suggesting, but yeah, I think they show the power of gender differentials. I'm going to exercise my option to continue in this discussion if others wish to continue, of course. But feel free to bow out if that's your desire-- obviously your choice.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
That's not a [whatever you're going to accuse me of], it's a statement of fact.
Wasn't really planning to accuse you of much of anything. What is it you're so afraid of???
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I worked with a straight man who was mildly* homophobic. Towards gay men at any rate. He was a nice person overall, treated women well.
We would trade insults as a form of comradery. I could insult his sexuality, his manliness, virility, just about anything. One day I said to him "Yes, ma'am". The change in his demeanor was fascinating. He was visibly upset. There was no class difference, no difference in authority.
Why, oh why, did he freak?
BTW, I repeated this as an experiment with other men. Same result a shocking number of times.
*Really just mildly. At the level he did not recognise it.
And I know a bunch of straight men who used to dress as women. Not because they were trans, but because they felt like they were being treated and expected to act so much like women that they might as well dress like them. They clearly didn't feel that being or acting like a man gave them any advantage in society.
So what? We can trade anecdotes all day.
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm going to exercise my option to continue in this discussion if others wish to continue, of course. But feel free to bow out if that's your desire-- obviously your choice.
I didn't say I was going to bow out of the discussion, merely that the two of us continuing to engage is pointless, as we do not speak the same language and you seem to believe your language is superior.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
That's not a [whatever you're going to accuse me of], it's a statement of fact.
Wasn't really planning to accuse you of much of anything. What is it you're so afraid of???
You regularly misrepresent my positions and accuse me of thinking and feeling things that I do not think and feel and of having motivations that I do not have.
And see, right there, you told me I was afraid. I'm not afraid, I'm annoyed that you keep driving me out of discussions because you don't like my opinions.
But this is getting personal and I'm not in the mood for a Hell call.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
you seem to believe your language is superior.
You regularly misrepresent my positions and accuse me of thinking and feeling things that I do not think and feel and of having motivations that I do not have.
And see, right there, you told me I was afraid. I'm not afraid, I'm annoyed that you keep driving me out of discussions because you don't like my opinions.
In complete and genuine honesty, I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to in any of the above. If I misrepresented your positions, I assure you it is entirely unintentional. Possibly I genuinely misunderstood. To my knowledge I have never accused you of thinking or feeling anything in particular as I don't really know you all that well. Nor do I recall "driving you out" of any discussion, ever.
All of which perhaps just proves your conclusion:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I didn't say I was going to bow out of the discussion, merely that the two of us continuing to engage is pointless, as we do not speak the same language.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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