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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Last of the "Angola Three"
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Has anyone not heard of Albert Woodfox? In solitary confinement for 43 years in a Louisiana jail, his latest bail hearing is due in a few days time. I'll link to one of the many internet sites as soon as I can. I'm still in the process of collecting as much info. as possible.
Two question are beginning to form in my mind - which might take us to Hell.
1. How can a humane society treat any human being in this manner?
2. How can any society that does sanction or tolerate such treatment call itself humane, or civilised, or worth any consideration from societies that truly are?
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
This should take you to the heart of the matter.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Quite simple. A country that relies on the death penalty, despite the overwhelming proof that the convictions are often racially biased or wrong for other reasons, is not a civilized country.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Horseman Bree, if you are intent on making this into a US-bashing thread, you can expect adminly attention in a lot less time than it takes to cross the border. As can anyone else inclined to fuel pond or 49th parallel wars.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Thank you, Eutychus.
Just as a point of information, the U.S. government supports capital punishment, as does the U.S. military. That isn't the whole picture, however.
Eighteen of 50 US states have abolished the death penalty, my own, alas, not among them. Despite my state's House voting to abolish capital punishment while I was in office, our Senate overruled us. That said, no one has been executed in my state since 1939 (though there is one inmate currently on our death row). I believe several other states are in similar positions.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/
Horseman Bree, if you are intent on making this into a US-bashing thread, you can expect adminly attention in a lot less time than it takes to cross the border. As can anyone else inclined to fuel pond or 49th parallel wars.
/hosting
I think I should be the one to apologise, since Horseman Bree was only addressing the specific questions I asked in the OP.
Perhaps I can widen the issue, philosophically. If, for evil to exist, it is only necessary for good men to do nothing, where does the buck stop?
How many good men in Louisiana allow this evil in their midst?
How many good men in the USA at large allow Louisiana to sanction the evil, in the name of - what - freedom? Democracy?
How many good men in England are content to leave the matter to the good men of America, in the name of sovereignty, autonomy, and the fact that we are, and will be indefinitely, in hock to them?
It's not Yank-bashing. Nor is it breastbeating. I just can't go on convincing myself that it's just tough shit, shit happens, and I can't cure all the world's ills.
There's got to be a more positive attitude. How many good Englishmen (and the "men" throughout this post are shorthand for "people") would it take to convince enough good Americans that they don't have to live with this; that there are enough good people in Louisiana to change the racist and bigoted culture that seems to be demanded by the red-necked few, into a civilized society that Louisiana, the USA, and the world at large can be proud of?
This is a big forum, and we could make a difference. Or not. But -oops! I think running a campaign is against the rules, isn't it? I'd appreciate a hostly direction on this.
[ 22. February 2015, 15:30: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
But -oops! I think running a campaign is against the rules, isn't it?
It most certainly is: see Commandment 8.
Discussing capital punishment is fine. Discussing what makes a nation civilised or not is fine. Discussing how "good men" might or might not make a difference is also fine.
Sweepingly saying a particular nation is not civilised is not fine, especially if doing so is liable to ignite historic antagonisms (a little history here: back in the mists of Ship time, before my time even, there was a pond war to end all pond wars that nearly ended the Ship. We've been keen to stave off another one or anything like it ever since).
PSA over.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
OK. So the United States is not uncivilised.
There are plenty of Americans trying to get justice for Albert Woodfox.
Can friends across the pond please explain why that is so difficult? Miscarriages of justice occur from time to time in the most civilised of societies. We still have slavery in the United Kingdom.
But 43 years? I don't get it. The point is, if it can happen in America, it could happen here. We both have very lucrative penal systems.
[ 23. February 2015, 21:48: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
pimple: Miscarriages of justice occur from time to time in the most civilised of societies.
I don't agree that the US is uncivilised, but I wouldn't call this a 'miscarriage of justice'. That would suggest that the system itself is just, there just has been an error or corruption or something in applying it. But the way I understand it, this man has been in solitary confinement for 43 years because the system itself is injust.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
We still have slavery in the United Kingdom.
Wait what how?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Or do you mean human trafficking which is illegal but takes place only until it's found out and stopped?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
How many good men in the USA at large allow Louisiana to sanction the evil, in the name of - what - freedom? .
Just a point of information, which you are likely already aware of: only the voters of LA can change LA laws. (or, perhaps, the supreme court. But that's the trickier way) my state hasn't officially killed people since statehood (we're barbaric in other ways) so I have exactly zero say in whether people in LA are executed.
Well, I have as much say as you. I could write letters. Support AI (which I do) and pray. But the good people of the USA at large are no more influential than you are. Except for those registered to vote in louisiana.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Firstly, it's not about capital punishment. It's about 40-odd years in solitary confinement.
Secondly, it's not about the laws sanctioned by Louisiana voter. It's about the way some dickheads are abusing them. Thirdly, it's about whether "it's their law/culture, not ours" gives us the moral right to say nothing about it.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
We still have slavery in the United Kingdom.
Wait what how?? Or do you mean human trafficking which is illegal but takes place only until it's found out and stopped?
Try this
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Or This (sorry for cock-up above)
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
pimple: Secondly, it's not about the laws sanctioned by Louisiana voter. It's about the way some dickheads are abusing them.
I don't understand this part. Is 43 year solitary legal in Louisiana or not?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
You tell me. A respected (US) authority has categorised this level of punishment as torture.
Click on the link in my sig.
[ 25. February 2015, 22:35: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
pimple: You tell me. A respected (US) authority has categorised this level of punishment as torture.
Yes, that's good. But what does Louisiana law say?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Good point. Woodfox's convictions have been reversed, the State of Louisiana is appealing, and
an application for bail has been made pending the outcome. Under any reasonable legal system, a man in this situation is "innocent until proven - or reproven - guilty", and bail is possible, I believe, under LA law. So I say again, it's a matter of how the law is applied, not the basic system itself that is at fault - or so I hope.
The other point is that although in some states "life" can mean incarceration forever, there is usually an understanding that inmates should be treated humanely.
[ 25. February 2015, 22:45: Message edited by: pimple ]
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
California's Pelican Bay State Prison* is so bad that it literally drives inmates insane. People have been trying to get changes for years. AIUI, there is some slooowwwww progress. I'll let you look that up.
*I believe there's also one by that name in another state.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
"How very different from the land of our own dear Queen!" Apparently not. Our own Government is planning a massive detention centre for illegal immigrants/remand prisoners (from memory - I need to check the precise facts on this). Suicides will be rife, even in our relatively humane shires. I'll come back with details later.
Meanwhile Albert Woodfox has been publicly branded as a serial rapist by the brain-dead goon determined to keep him locked up. Woddfox has never been charged, let alone convicted, of rape.
He has a lot of support building up for him though, and I'm confident that he'll survive. Justice? Hardly, it's too late for that. But
I have a (perhaps naïve) belief that evil eventually destroys itself.
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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