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Our galaxy has 200,000,000,000 stars & the universe has more galaxies than this (Page 7)
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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Our galaxy has 200,000,000,000 stars & the universe has more galaxies than this
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
Its not Creationism is God of the gaps. We don't
yet have a full picture of something therefore God did it.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
There has already been a host post on this thread reminding posters that Ship policy on debates relating to creation and evolution is that they should take place in Dead Horses.
And just for clarity, arguing about what constitutes creationism is a subset of that debate.
There is plenty of scope for discussing the OP without engaging in those tangents, or indeed for starting a thread in DH to discuss them.
Transgressors, be warned.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
I think that the astonishing immensity and variety of the observed Universe -- combined with the (thus far) observed rarity of beings/creatures like us -- makes us all that much more special rather than insignificant …
Self-organizing matter/energy ("life") contemplating itself is a really interesting deal, IMHO ...
I agree with this. There have been many proposals for life's development and the organization of the physical structures of organisms, and only our branch of the tree of life does what humans do. The rarity of creatures like us needs to be confirmed and I hope we can find out if this hypothesis of the rarity of sentience can be determined.
It is interesting the consider your screen name in light of what you posted. Teilhard de Chardin went quite far out in my view, but some kernel of his ideas have appealed to me. The idea that perhaps there is large universe (for our perception infinite) and that self-awareness would evolve somewhere, rarely, or even only once. Is this the free will of the cosmos?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Really? Because the whole denying the existence of evidence is a standard creationist tactic.
Take your misrepresentations elsewhere.
First off, credit where credit is due! If you're going to complain about misrepresentations, perhaps you shouldn't misrepresent who you're responding to.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The record shows that I have not denied any evidence in the above. I have made the objectively true statement that there is little direct evidence for the evolution of hominids. Enough for someone who thinks that hominids have evolved to draw some kind of evolutionary tree? Sure. A correct tree? Quite possibly, though it has been changing as new evidence comes in now and then. But there simply isn't a massive fossil record, and genetic approaches rely on assumptions.
For starters, the idea that no hominid* species changes over time (i.e. evolves) would make them pretty radically distinct from every other organism on the planet. And exactly what "assumptions" do you find unpalatable about genetics? For example, the remains of Richard III were recently identified using genetic testing, which would seem to rest on the same assumptions as most of the rest of genetics (parent organisms pass along genetic material to their descendents, occasional mutations occur, etc.)
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*Still not clear whether you mean "hominids" as roughly equivalent to H. sapiens or mean to include all great ape species in the term.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
As I must comply with Eutychus' directive I cannot take you on here IngoB. But I can easily take you on. I'm twice as old as the geniuses I work with. Hell or Dead Horses? I tell you what, I'll totter off to Hell. It'll take a while, I'm old, slow, thick. But the pitiful dragon of claimed intellectualism still has to be slain.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
While we can't "prove" causation, we can and do experience it ...
as an interpretation of sensory information. But if your pov about meaning changes, the interpretation also changes.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Host Hat On
@ Croesos' last post
Croesos, you are discussing the evolution of hominids and also referring back to a creation/evolution distinctive. Your post and the continuation of the arguments belong in Dead Horses.
You are are ignoring Eutychus' Host ruling and my earlier post as well. So in accordance with normal practice, that gets you a reference to Admin. Others please note.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Host Hat Off
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
I think that the astonishing immensity and variety of the observed Universe -- combined with the (thus far) observed rarity of beings/creatures like us -- makes us all that much more special rather than insignificant …
Self-organizing matter/energy ("life") contemplating itself is a really interesting deal, IMHO ...
I agree with this. There have been many proposals for life's development and the organization of the physical structures of organisms, and only our branch of the tree of life does what humans do. The rarity of creatures like us needs to be confirmed and I hope we can find out if this hypothesis of the rarity of sentience can be determined.
It is interesting the consider your screen name in light of what you posted. Teilhard de Chardin went quite far out in my view, but some kernel of his ideas have appealed to me. The idea that perhaps there is large universe (for our perception infinite) and that self-awareness would evolve somewhere, rarely, or even only once. Is this the free will of the cosmos?
One way to understand "God" is as, "the Soul of The Universe" … Human beings understood as being created "in the image of God" adds into that picture ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
While we can't "prove" causation, we can and do experience it ...
as an interpretation of sensory information. But if your pov about meaning changes, the interpretation also changes.
Yes … "Meaning" isn't necessarily one single static thing that must be experienced/understood identically by all … The incredible heat of the sun is a different thing today (in Minnesota, thawing out from a miserable February) than in July (in Arizona) …
IOW, while "Reality" presumably is the same reality everywhere always, in fact, it isn't necessarily so … The same sun that saves my life in Minnesota in March might kill me in Arizona in August ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hell for your creationism will keep IngoB. What would you call a creature that builds dwellings with fireplaces, cooks, builds boats, buries its dead? Non-sapient?
Fallen?
At least two hundred thousand years ago?
From where?
I pause. Seriously. Is this a Dead Horse?
To what?
You say that that is irrelevant, implying that you bow to all the rational, sound, scientific evidence, you being a scientist squared and all, more scientificalisticalisticistical than anyone else here by an extra cerebral hemisphere or two, that the supernatural endowment of sapience is nonetheless credible even half a million years ago, a la 2001 A Space Odyssey.
Because the Bible tells you so.
How did they know? I mean REALLY how did they know? The post-Exilic editors of a tradition a thousand years older?
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We need a model of gradual/punctuated sapience.
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If you believe that sapience supervenes on physical brain states, perhaps.
Talk about cheap rhetoric. I don't have to BELIEVE in anything. It's IRRELEVANT. What happened? What's the story? The scientific one AND Genesis? Been there mate. There can ONLY be one.
If I take this to Hell it'll be more of the same without the kid gloves on.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Host Hat On
Well, I think I've decoded Martin60's post sufficiently to refer it to Admin as another possible ignoring of Eutychus' Host post and my underlining of it. Ruminating in Purgatory about whether you'll continue the DH theme (creationism v evolution so far as hominids are concerned) or call IngoB to Hell; both are off limits here. Call him to Hell or reopen the discussion in DH. Those are your only options.
For everyone else. This thread will be closed if there are any more posts re creationism/evolution of hominids.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Host Hat Off
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
[ADMIN]
Always listen to the Hosts.
Crœsos, Martin60, please take a couple weeks to contemplate how serious we are about Commandment 6. Hopefully nobody else needs similar reminding.
[/ADMIN]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
One way to understand "God" is as, "the Soul of The Universe" … Human beings understood as being created "in the image of God" adds into that picture ...
Perhaps that is one way to understand God, but I don't think it's anything like the orthodox Christian way of understanding God (He is the Creator of all things, not a spirit animating creation, even all of creation).
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
One way to understand "God" is as, "the Soul of The Universe" … Human beings understood as being created "in the image of God" adds into that picture ...
Perhaps that is one way to understand God, but I don't think it's anything like the orthodox Christian way of understanding God (He is the Creator of all things, not a spirit animating creation, even all of creation).
(Reportedly) The LORD God "breathed into [them] the spirit-breath of life and they became living souls" … There are many ways to understand that affirmation … but they all involve "God" and the "dust" ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
There may be, but again, orthodox Christian belief is pretty specific about God being an eternal self-existent Being Who created everything else ex nihilo, and isn't a part of the material universe in Himself.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
There may be, but again, orthodox Christian belief is pretty specific about God being an eternal self-existent Being Who created everything else ex nihilo, and isn't a part of the material universe in Himself.
True … Except that the "ex nihilo" part, while "Orthodox"-"Catholic," isn't necessarily "Biblical" … The Biblical Creation stories are a bit fuzzy about that part …
But what is CLEAR is that "life" is all about God animating the dust and clay with "spirit-breath" that comes from -- and only from -- God ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Still, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. God is eternal. The heavens and the earth are not; they came to be at some time. This doesn't seem to jive with a "God as world-soul" theology.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Still, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. God is eternal. The heavens and the earth are not; they came to be at some time. This doesn't seem to jive with a "God as world-soul" theology.
This and ChastMastr's posts are helpful. But may I ask how do we actually know about what is meant by eternal in the context of the universe? We know that planets and solar systems form and then the suns/stars burn out, so they are finite. But the universe may go through series of big bangs and contractions, cycling through. Out conception of eternity is merely that time for us starts with the current big bang. The whole thing seems so amazingly grand, bigger than my brain can handle.
What if the universe is infinite in this sense?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In that case "beginning" would be metaphorical. But we believe the Father begot the Son, but not in time; eternally begetting, eternally being begotten. It's a relationship of causality. We equate causality with time because we are IN time. (IngoB could not doubt tell us about the four kinds of causation à la Aristotle but I'm no expert there.)
But even in our world of time and space, causation needn't imply succession in time, and can be static and ongoing. The girders of the first flooor cause the second floor to be above the ground. All the time, right now, and continuing.
We know the building to have been built at some time, and presumably the first floor was built before the second. Although it needn't have been. It would be odd to build the second story first, hold it in the air and build the first underneath it, but neither logically nor physically impossible. The point being that causation in time is not necessary for the kind of ongoing, static causation I'm referring to. (Static isn't quite the right term but I ohpe it conveys the nothing-moving-ness of what I'm referring to.)
In similar manner (you can only ever really use analogues and metaphors with God, innit) the Father begets the Son. Not at some point in the past, but all the time, ongoing.
So, if the Universe were temporally infinite, the same principle would apply. God is always causing the universe to exist, in a static, now and all the time sense.
This may be folderol but it's my attempt to square that circle.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
IngoB could not doubt tell us about the four kinds of causation à la Aristotle but I'm no expert there.
I think the Aristotelian word is only still translated 'cause' because it's a) traditional; and b) there isn't a better word available. It doesn't quite mean 'cause' as generally understood in English these days. Perhaps 'explanation' is a closer English equivalent, although explanation is ambiguous between what is going on and people talking about what is going on.
Anyway...
'Formal cause': what something is, its shape, the way it is put together.
'Material cause': what it is made out of.
'Efficient cause': what brings it about. Closest to the meaning of cause in modern English.
'Final cause': what something is there for, the purpose. (Not necessarily the same as the intention behind something, unless you're a Roman Catholic creationist.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I was going to post a reply but Mousethief summed it up pretty well. "Eternity" in this sense isn't time going on for a really really long time--it's something that transcends the whole thing. (As a side note, this gets into the whole free will/predestination thing, as I understand it, because while we freely make our decisions and (on an earthly level) perceive them as sequential points along our personal timeline, God transcends the whole thing and sees our timeline all at once in His neverending Now, along with trilobites and dinosaurs and the births and deaths of galaxies and what we see as the distant future and beyond that--and, if there is a multiverse or multi-multi-multi (etc.) verse, all of that as well.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
That's the problem re time. The people who discuss such things talk of some events in the universe currently as having a minimum flexible time where time passes more quickly or slowly some places than in others as a function of speed. We don't know if there is time within a black hole for instance.
Eternity may be a characteristic of God and of black holes.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That's the problem re time. The people who discuss such things talk of some events in the universe currently as having a minimum flexible time where time passes more quickly or slowly some places than in others as a function of speed. We don't know if there is time within a black hole for instance.
Eternity may be a characteristic of God and of black holes.
a photon has a lifespan of zero...
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is a photon a particle or a wave?
The mystery, oh the mystery!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
We finite human beings (who imagine our selves to be THE model of intelligence, wisdom, knowledge and understanding !!!) of course naturally try to get hold of that slippery thing called, "Reality," as best we can in terms of our own experience and limitations … How could we do otherwise, or better … ???
Thus, the problem, yes … ???
Meanwhile … Dear well-meaning Steve Hawking thinks, writes and talks about "how 'God' sees the Universe," and so on, while dear well-meaning guys like Rick Dawkins just cut to their own chase and either scoff or vomit whenever "God" is mentioned …
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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