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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Deano and Muslims
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
Rather than allow Deano to totally derail the Clarkson thread and make it all about him, here's a new thread where he can be the centre of attention.
Deano, you say here that you don't like Muslims, but as they are not a race, that doesn't make you racist.
OK I can go along with your case that they're not a separate race, but even so, to dismiss an entire group of people simply because you "don't like" them may not be racist, but is still blinkered, narrow minded prejudice.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Rather than allow Deano to totally derail the Clarkson thread and make it all about him, here's a new thread where he can be the centre of attention.
Deano, you say here that you don't like Muslims, but as they are not a race, that doesn't make you racist.
OK I can go along with your case that they're not a separate race, but even so, to dismiss an entire group of people simply because you "don't like" them may not be racist, but is still blinkered, narrow minded prejudice.
Doesn't alter my opinion of deano much. Let's say his choice of football team is the best thing about him.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Elsewhere, Deano blatherered:
quote:
No it doesn't. It implies that some muslims in some parts of English towns are themselves incredibly racist.
Or rather it might, if you'd bothered to actually back up your assertion about "no whites" signs in British towns when called on your bullshit. Which you didn't.
[ 23. March 2015, 20:30: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
deano evidently gets his information from Fox News. Shouldn't be surprised really.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
So, picking up from where I left off on the Clarkson thread
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Well, I would like to know what you meant by this.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Alan. I don't like muslims.
OK, so you don't like Muslims. What the Hell does that have to do with the Japanese? Unless you also don't like Shinto and Buddhism.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There's a handy hint. Any religion that doesn't get a capital letter on it's name, that's deano's way of putting the boot in.
It's a particularly neat bit of wankery because is just looks like deano is one of those typists who forgets about the shift key. Until you notice that Christians still manage to get a capital 'C'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, he does it to himself. Which is definite proof of wankery.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
The 'not racist' line would cut a lot more ice if deano wasn't (apparently) an old white guy in a country where most Muslims are non-white.
But then deano is a troll as much as he's a lazy racist, so whatever.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
deano's not that old - born 1967, so he's ten years younger than me. He's barely out of Young Fogeydom.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
deano likes thinking in stereotypes. It saves wear and tear on his two brain cells to keep everything binary.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
deano's not that old - born 1967, so he's ten years younger than me. He's barely out of Young Fogeydom.
From watching Tea Party Republicans in action, I'm sure it can be proven scientifically that persons of his persuasion age much faster than ordinary people. I'd guess at a political age of about 90 in this case - well past the onset of normal healthy curmudgeonry.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I suppose you don't have to like Muslims, any more than you have to like any other group of people who believe or do things you disapprove of. But if you've never met any that are even moderately likeable then you probably haven't met very many, in which case your sentiments are not much use to anyone else.
But multicultural Britain is becoming increasingly segregated these days. In my city I've noticed over the decades that white 'Christians' and brown Muslims are having less and less to do with each other. This might not be specifically about being racist or anti-Muslim, but the outcome will be that people will end up not knowing or understanding each other, and it'll be easier to turn to stereotypes and to make these sweeping statements about groups of people who are different.
Conversely, for some people perhaps it's easier to love your Muslim 'neighbour' when he lives far away from your pretty village or your elegant suburb!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, if there's intelligent life there do you want then to think that deano is representative of us, or even worse representative of the rest of us?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Talk about inter-stellar incident!
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
"I don't like aliens. They come in lots of species so it's not speciesist."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Alan. I don't like deano.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Alan. I don't like deano.
Wankerist! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Alan. I don't like deano.
Eh?
Are you addressing me to say you don't like deano? Join the club.
Or, are you declaring my views on deano? Very perceptive.
Well, to be precise I don't like the vile shit deano spouts on these boards. But, this is Hell where the rules allow me to be flexible with the truth and say I don't like the person who spouts vile shit.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Um, I think he's imitating Deano's post that started this whole thing.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
I was attempting to "fix" deano's original statement
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Alan. I don't like muslims.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
I like The Wizard of Oz.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I like The Wizard of Oz.
But who do feel most sympathy for: the lion with no courage or the tin man with no brain.
[ 24. March 2015, 13:42: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I like The Wizard of Oz.
But who do feel most sympathy for: the lion with no courage or the tin man with no brain.
Scarecrow had no brain--the tin man was heartless. I think both equally apply to deano.
PS - I was referring to this scene from "A Christmas Story".
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Alan. I don't like deano.
Wankerist!
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Perhaps Deano simply made a typo and doesn't like muslin.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Rather strained humour there.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't like deano's opinions on the Ship much either, but I do have a question: does not liking a particular race make you racist?
I think I have much stronger definition of racism. In my Social Psychology classes, I've learned the following scale of increasing severity, which I find rather helpful.
Stereotype: We have to be careful with them, but they're not always negative. For example: "A Brazilian will usually try to hug you when he meets you." Also, it still acknowledges that this isn't true for all Brazilians.
Prejudice: A stereotype that is always negative, and that doesn't leave room for exceptions anymore. Example: "He's Maroccan, so he's prone to violence."
Discrimination: Actively treating people differently because of their race / etnicity. "No Turks allowed in my shop."
Racism: The conviction that your race is superior than another, and that they can systematically be excluded because of this.
Fascism: A certain political-economical system that existed (exists?) in certain countries, based on racism.
I'm not sure if this system is accurate, or even if it makes sense. I surely find it helpful sometimes.
I think I would put a statement like "I don't like Muslims" on the Prejudice step of this scale. Deano may well be racist, but I'm not sure if saying "I don't like Muslims" by itself makes him one. After all, I don't think there is a rule saying that he has to like anyone.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Rather strained humour there.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
LeRoc
Interesting breakdown, that. I suppose it's all vitiated to a degree, since there are no such thing as races. I suppose Muslims tend to be brown and have unpleasant names like Al-Ghazali, although indeed there are white ones.
Fear and dislike of difference, maybe. I wonder if racists are more likely to be sexist? (More difference).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatl: I suppose it's all vitiated to a degree, since there are no such thing as races.
I don't agree with this. It is true that there is no biological basis for the definition of races, but I do believe that they exist as social constructs.
For example, my black friends in Brazil define someone to be black if two conditions are fulfilled:- (S)he considers him/herself to be black.
- The black community accepts him/her as black.
In fact, I have some black friends here whose skin is almost as light as mine.
I find that this definition validly defines race.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
quetzalcoatl: I suppose it's all vitiated to a degree, since there are no such thing as races.
I don't agree with this. It is true that there is no biological basis for the definition of races, but I do believe that they exist as social constructs.
For example, my black friends in Brazil define someone to be black if two conditions are fulfilled:- (S)he considers him/herself to be black.
- The black community accepts him/her as black.
In fact, I have some black friends here whose skin is almost as light as mine.
I find that this definition validly defines race.
That's interesting as I assume that some racists try to define race biologically; I don't know if there are 'social construct' racists. But maybe Deano doesn't dislike 'muslims' as such, but his own image of them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I have met people who accept there is no real biological differnce in the different groups but still have prejudice against certain groups. "Their colour doesn't cause the problem, their culture does and most of them inherit (trait xyz) from their upbringing".
So they are functionally racist despite understanding at least that much biology.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatl: That's interesting as I assume that some racists try to define race biologically; I don't know if there are 'social construct' racists. But maybe Deano doesn't dislike 'muslims' as such, but his own image of them.
It is also why I don't accept "It's not racism because Islam is a religion!" as a defence. Both racial and religious groups are social constructs.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
quetzalcoatl: That's interesting as I assume that some racists try to define race biologically; I don't know if there are 'social construct' racists. But maybe Deano doesn't dislike 'muslims' as such, but his own image of them.
It is also why I don't accept "It's not racism because Islam is a religion!" as a defence. Both racial and religious groups are social constructs.
Not in the same way. A religion is a set of beliefs, generally self-applied. Race is a set of characteristics generally applied from the outside.
But racism is not based upon a deep logic.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
lilBuddha: Not in the same way. A religion is a set of beliefs, generally self-applied. Race is a set of characteristics generally applied from the outside.
You're right, they are not the same thing. But I see no moral difference between feeling superior to one socially constructed group and another kind of socially constructed group.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I was attempting to "fix" deano
Trying to fix deano is a futile exercise.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
you know someone who can get the poor lamb chopped?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Rather strained humour there.
Kill me now.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I was attempting to "fix" deano
Trying to fix deano is a futile exercise.
We had our dog fixed.
And he's not racist.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Given his stated age in his profile, it is highly likely that any damage he may do to the gene pool has already been done. Hopefully, for the sake of any children he has, being an arsehole isn't genetic.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've often thought that instead of fleeing from multicultural areas (many of which in some cities are heavily Muslim) white non-Muslims would be doing their children a favour by getting them accustomed to living and working among a demographic that's in the ascendant in the UK. These parents are missing a trick, it seems to me.
A white, Christian politician who really understood and felt comfortable in Muslim communities, perhaps having learned Arabic or Urdu at school, would be in a great position to pick up Muslim votes. The Conservative Party especially would love more Muslim supporters, but how many of their politicians have any experience of living among and really getting to know ordinary, non-billionaire Muslims?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
As a father of good children, it is not.
Wait a minute...
That's why they don't look....
They take after their mother, that's all.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I have met people who accept there is no real biological differnce in the different groups but still have prejudice against certain groups. "Their colour doesn't cause the problem, their culture does and most of them inherit (trait xyz) from their upbringing".
So they are functionally racist despite understanding at least that much biology.
When I lived in Chicago, I knew a man from Nigeria who was in town going to seminary. He said one day he was being followed by a trio of pretty threatening-looking white guys. They overtook him and started harrassing him, and he said something like, "What have I done to you, that you treat me like this?"
As soon as they heard his Nigerian brogue, they apologized, said, "Our fight isn't with you," and left him.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The Conservative Party especially would love more Muslim supporters, but how many of their politicians have any experience of living among and really getting to know ordinary, non-billionaire Muslims?
Or, ordinary non-billionaire people of any religion or none.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
A white, Christian politician who really understood and felt comfortable in Muslim communities, perhaps having learned Arabic or Urdu at school, would be in a great position to pick up Muslim votes. The Conservative Party especially would love more Muslim supporters, but how many of their politicians have any experience of living among and really getting to know ordinary, non-billionaire Muslims?
There's a very famous occasion where (I think) the Socialist Workers Party attempted to sting Enoch Powell by confronting him with a group of Muslim first generation immigrants in his Wolverhampton constituency. Unfortunately the SWP hadn't picked up on the fact that Powell was in fact, er, fluent in Urdu.
So he bypassed the SWP's tame interpreter, had a long chat with the group, listened to their grievances, and turned the whole confrontation into essentially a tea party.
So it can be done, even from very unexpected quarters.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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