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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Lest we forget
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.
Lest we forget
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Yes, indeed - part of what we must not forget.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
I think this belongs in All Saints, so that's where I'm sending it.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
He maketh wars to cease in all the world. He breaketh the bow and knappeth the spear in sunder and burneth the chariots in the fire. Be still then and know that I am God. The Lord of hosts is with us.(part of psalm 46)
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Doublethink, we were rushing to get to our local service when I last posted. I'm not sure if this, by Siegfried Sassoon:
Adam, a brown old vulture in the ruins
is still in copyright, so give the link to another expression of that theme (it's at p.17 of the link). An even better poem is Wilfred Owen's:
So Abram rose
which makes me weep every time I read it.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
Gentle question from other climes: Is this for some sort of memorial day??
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
...An even better poem is Wilfred Owen's:
So Abram rose
which makes me weep every time I read it.
The use of that poem in Britten's War Requiem does that to me, too.
quote:
The pity of war, the pity war distilled.
[Owen]
[ 25. April 2015, 02:40: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
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Evangeline
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# 7002
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Posted
ANZAC day, commemoration of the landing at Gallipoli of ANZAC forces in WWI. This year is especially significant because it is 100 years.
Oh and I'll just grumpily pre-empt the annual ignorant, projecting 'lecture' we receive from somebody on the Ship when Australians or NZers mention ANZAC Day and we get told to not glorify war and remember the other side..... ANZAC Day commemorates the senseless loss of life of both sides and it is not some jingoistic, victorious celebration-"we" were invading somebody else's homeland AND "we" lost-not as many lives as the Turks lost but we lost the battle and eventually, after close enough to 100,000 young allied and Turkish lives were lost "we" retreated". The Turks graciously host Australian and NZers who come to commemorate at Gallipoli and Turks now living in Australia participate in Anzac day celebrations with us.
Gallipoli - Memorial at Anzac Cove by Ataturk.
"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives…
You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours…
You, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace, after having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."
Ataturk, 1934
[ 25. April 2015, 02:49: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gentle question from other climes: Is this for some sort of memorial day??
Thx.
Yes - 100 years ago today, soldiers of the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZACS) landed at Gallipoli under heavy fire from the Turkish Army. As I said above, an inevitable and pointless débacle of the same origin as the planning of trench warfare on the Western Front. When the troops were withdrawn over 8,000 Australian and 2,000 NZ soldiers had been killed and many more seriously injured.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
...and well over a thousand Indian troops died as well. The whole thing was just senseless carnage - not one of Churchill's brighter ideas!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Net Spinster
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# 16058
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Posted
Remember also the French, the British (including the Irish), the Indians, and the Newfoundlanders (not then part of Canada). Remember also the Turks who died in at least as great numbers. One of my great grandfathers was on the River Clyde (a ship that was deliberately beached to try to bring the troops, mostly Irish, close to shore) and wrote of the experience (he was part of a unit on the ship providing covering fire for those trying to land so had a very good view of that disaster); he was later seriously wounded though he survived unlike so many.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
Those nations mentioned by Net Spinster were all represented at today's Anzac Cove Dawn Service. I missed seeing the Canberra wreath laying so not sure if representatives participated there too.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Yes, we do remember them all, but in particular we remember those from Australia and NZ. But most of all, we remember the carnage of the war in all its theatres, and its great futility.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Rowen
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# 1194
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Posted
I have friends with the official group at THE actual service in Turkey. They were so awed and excited to go. Her grandfather was there, 100 years ago.... And now her parents, needing her as a carer, are part of it all
We hope for their safety. We look forward to sharing their stories.
I watch TV now, and think of my father, and her grandfather, and all who have been in war.
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, we do remember them all, but in particular we remember those from Australia and NZ. But most of all, we remember the carnage of the war in all its theatres, and its great futility.
Yes we do and if it's alright with anyone & everyone who wants to chip in about who and what Australians and New Zealanders should be remembering on their national day, we particularly remember that all the ANZACs at Gallipoli were volunteers (NZ instituted conscription sometime after Gallipoli) and that Australia lost 0.7% of its total male population between the ages of 18-44 at Gallipoli alone, and 5.6% of its total male 18-44yo population during WWI-and that's deaths-not casualties. Australia lost 61,000 young men, not to mention the 100,000s who came home shell-shocked, blind from mustard gas, with shrapnel wounds, missing limbs etc Out of a total population of less than 5,000,000 that's one hell of an impact. The NZ stats are probably worse as their population was even tinier. (My Grandfather was "lucky" -he was shot on 3 separate occasions on the Western front but survived to see the end of the war.-not getting home 'til 1919. My great-uncle was shot at Gallipoli, was evacuated then sent to the Western Front, again he was lucky and was medically discharged in 1917).
We remember them and the impact that this had on their families and the country as a whole as well as the enormous toll suffered by Australian and NZ soldiers and service men and women in all theatres of war from the Boer war to Iraq. This doesn't mean we forget the sacrifices made by others but we especially remember the massive loss of our own and the bravery of those who served as well as the futility of war.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They always quote this at the dawn service at the Melbourne Shrine of Remembrance, which I attend to honour my father, who fought Nazism in a far more necessary and morally unambiguous conflict, and never regretted it.
The lines are bullshit.
A handful of soldiers are heroes, some run away, and the majority manage to do the duty required of them while practically paralysed with fear and wondering how they got themselves into such a situation.
I don't know why we can't have Anzac Day services which simply commemorate the fact that they served and they suffered, without the hype.
quote:
Lest we forget
Kipling originally used the expression in the context of a warning against imperial pride, not as an admonition to remember fallen soldiers.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thx for the explanations.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
and the majority manage to do the duty required of them while practically paralysed with fear and wondering how they got themselves into such a situation.
and that's a bravery I have no hesitation in admiring, respecting and honouring.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Adam Tawse from my village in north east Scotland, emigrated to NZ, and died at Gallipoli, aged 25. When I go to church tomorrow, I'll walk past the village war memorial with his name on it.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The Royal Norfolk Regiment suffered heavy losses at Gallipoli, including E company, made up of staff from Sandringham.
Of the 36,000 British and Empire troops who died 14,000 were never found; of those bodies that were found, a significant number were found in large concentrations, shot in the head: Lt Col Moore of the East Yorks is recorded in the regimental record as being Murdered in Action.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Dusting off and donning Hostly Quaker Hat
Please remember that this is a memorial thread about a tragic event 100 years ago. If you want to discuss whose fault it all was or the atrocities that may have occurred, on either side, then kindly do it somewhere else - not in AS.
Thanks.
WW - AS Host
Returning Hostly Quaker Hat to the cupboard
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
and the majority manage to do the duty required of them while practically paralysed with fear and wondering how they got themselves into such a situation.
and that's a bravery I have no hesitation in admiring, respecting and honouring.
As long as it's not used as an excuse to pretend that Australian soldiers have some sort of monopoly on courage, comradeship and sacrifice.
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
Anzac Day rests in an interesting place. At its best, it is about remembering those who have suffered and died in war and peacekeeping. Far too many names.
My own service was fairly unexciting, no heroics but occasionally stupidity rewarded by luck. Twice my job required me to stand in the tropical rain measuring a casket, to make sure it would fit in the hold of the plane for the final flight home. That was two times too many - but was it in vain?
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
and the majority manage to do the duty required of them while practically paralysed with fear and wondering how they got themselves into such a situation.
and that's a bravery I have no hesitation in admiring, respecting and honouring.
As long as it's not used as an excuse to pretend that Australian soldiers have some sort of monopoly on courage, comradeship and sacrifice.
To honour your own people's courage, comradeship and sacrifice doesn't mean you are dishonouring or denying that of others.
Thank-you for your service DD, if you don't mind me asking where did you serve?
[ 25. April 2015, 22:40: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
25 years in Australia (full and part-time service) and two years in the Solomon Islands as part of the peace-keeping force. And now back in uniform again as a Reserve Chaplain.
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
... Australia lost 0.7% of its total male population between the ages of 18-44 at Gallipoli alone, and 5.6% of its total male 18-44yo population during WWI...
...The NZ stats are probably worse...
The number I heard when I visited was that NZ lost 1/4 of her young men in WWI. I didn't know what a cenotaph was when I arrived there, but every village had one, and the number of names on it sometimes exceeded the current population.
Clearly such a disaster has affected the country's psyche, even a century later. Those of us outside can't always see the effects, and it is hard for us to imagine the impact such an event in our own communities today.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
An even better poem is Wilfred Owen's:
So Abram rose
which makes me weep every time I read it.
I've read quite a few WW1 poems and yet have never come across that one. Wonder if such an observation was so very close to the bone it was deemed unsuitable for general consumption.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
An even better poem is Wilfred Owen's:
So Abram rose
which makes me weep every time I read it.
I've read quite a few WW1 poems and yet have never come across that one. Wonder if such an observation was so very close to the bone it was deemed unsuitable for general consumption.
It forms part of the text of
Britten's War Requiem (along with other Owen poems).
I wouldn't say it was particularly unknown.
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Regarding NZ losses, the stats I've heard were; the population of NZ at the time was around 1 million. 100,000 went to war and 60% of them never returned.
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
I particularly like the NZ war memorial on ANZAC Parade here in Australia's National Capital city.
The Parade is very wide, so it is easy to miss the fact that there are two arches facing each other. Curved bronze arches, carved with cross hatching that symbolise the handles of a Maori carrying basket. The basket (case) they carry is of course the modern Australian road above.
Very quiet, very clever. Exactly how I think about NZ as a nation. Best kept secret in the world, and their contribution and loss at Gallipoli was per capita by far the greatest. Had the brave New Zealanders been properly supported on day one of Gallipoli, history may have been written differently.
If you take the NZ out of ANZAC you just get AAC(k)! I really don't like it when the focus gets exclusively Australian at ANZAC Day in Oz.
Just sayin'.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I shall look for that next time in Canberra - I don't recll ever seeing it.
Huia, the stats given in Wikpedia (I know) are that from a population of 5 million, 53,500 Australians were killed or missing in action. With other deaths added in, that gives around 1,32% of the population. For NZ, the figures are 16.710 killed or mia, from a population of 1.1 m, and a rate of around 1.5% when other deaths are added in.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
The Anzac Parade memorials are explained here. The NZ one is easy to miss as it is at the lower end on the corners nearest the lake.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Kaplan Corday: quote:
As long as it's not used as an excuse to pretend that Australian soldiers have some sort of monopoly on courage, comradeship and sacrifice.
Oh, for pity's sake. Doing your duty whilst practically paralysed with fear is the best kind of courage. Far more worthy of admiration than berserker rage, or the indifference to physical danger you sometimes see in people with limited imagination.
Of course all the casualties of war should be remembered, but it is appropriate to give special honour to the ANZACs on ANZAC Day.
I'm a bit late, but
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
As long as it's not used as an excuse to pretend that Australian soldiers have some sort of monopoly on courage, comradeship and sacrifice.
I don't read Evangeline (or any other poster) even vaguely suggesting that.
Rolyn, I first came across both poems at school - from memory I would have been 13 or 14 at the time. They were brought forward not only as war poems, but to show the dramatic change from the Georgian school which had preceded them. Now Sassoon, as a favour almost, was diagnosed as mentally ill wrote a very public letter criticising the conduct of the war and also threw his MC into a river or canal. He spent some time in a psychiatric hospital "recovering" before his return to active duty in Palestine and then back to the Western Front. The alternative would have been a serious criminal charge, perhaps even treason. His poetry was not banned or hidden away then or later.
Banner Lady, a very interesting link. At the moment my next planned trips to Canberra will be purely work, but I'll make sure that I drive along that route.
[ 28. April 2015, 11:17: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
As long as it's not used as an excuse to pretend that Australian soldiers have some sort of monopoly on courage, comradeship and sacrifice.
I don't read Evangeline (or any other poster) even vaguely suggesting that.
And I didn't even vaguely suggest that she did.
It does happen, however, because I've read and heard it.
Anzac Day is currently a very contested cultural artefact.
It looked as if it were going to die out back in the Seventies, but has staged a huge comeback.
The commentariat, including the usual suspects such as the Fairfax press and the ABC, are furious that the uppity Australian public is defying their intellectual betters by attending in droves, and suggest that its renewed popularity was manipulated by John Howard, rather than recognising it as the genuine people's movement which it is.
Its resurgence in fact began in the early Nineties, years before Howard's election.
As I indicated upthread, I support and attend the commemorative events associated with Anzac Day, but agree with its critics that they sometimes involve puerile nationalism and jingoism, as well as unhistorical hype, for example the often heard assertion that the Australian soldiers who landed at Gallipoli were "fighting for our freedom".
It is entirely appropriate to recognise and appreciate our servicepeople's sufferings and adherence to duty, but not to self-servingly mythologise them.
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Important points - but not AS material. I think this aspect of ANZAC Day could be fruitfully continued in Purgatory.
WW - AS Host
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
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