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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Virtually annihilated
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
This week I've been thinking a bit about how I was different before the internet. I was reading a stack of 20-yr old motorbike club mags, and remembering what it was like to wait 2 months for each update, to contribute and see yourself in print, and to look out for small-ads for spares (and travel miles to meet weird people and buy stuff) so as to be able to keep a strange vehicle going which otherwise could not be used at all. There was something of 'belonging' about it.
I remember being proud to own books, even to have a small library, to look at printed pictures of things and get excited.
I've also been listening to a bunch of old lp's, and remembering the excitement of looking through someone else's stack of vinyl, borrowing things, taping things - and again, something about identity, belonging.
This last I contrast with a friend's Apple-cloud-thing, where he has access to (as far as I can see) All Music. Faced with All Music, I don't really know what to think - I think I think I might sit in the garden instead.
Does this loss have a name? Have you seen anyone writing (on the web ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) about it? Or did you feel the same looking back at 25 from 45, both experiences pre-dating the internet?
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I think you've certainly got a point, M-in-M.
Each year D's mother gives us a subscription to the international version of the Daily Telegraph, and although we've probably already read most of it on the interweb, we both tend to pounce on the printed version (partly because it's got crosswords and Sudoku, but still ...).
D. also maintains that record-buying has never been the same since the advent of cassette-tapes, and he may be right. An album cover (whether of rock music or classical) was often a thing of beauty, either with a clever piece of art-work or a pretty picture, and those never really translated to cassettes or CDs, as they were too small.
Having said that, I don't think I'd want to be without my computer for long.
[ 01. August 2015, 20:58: Message edited by: Piglet ]
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Oh, you mean pre-ship era. Before The Ship.
BTS I was dissatisfied with many things about the way church happens in our society. But I couldn't put a finger on it. Just a sort of love-hate relationship. The Ship has helped me cope much better with Christianity *as we know it*.
The internet is my go to place for information.
It has replaced the need for dictionaries, encyclopaedias, cookbooks, telephone directory, road maps, daily devotionals and newspapers. But no, I have not thrown all these out. Well, the encyclopaeedias are gone, but they were out of date anyway. The cookbooks are mostly gone. Don't get newspapers delivered any more. Don't need to buy maps as I can print these out or use my smart phone.
I can do a daily quiz or mahjong challenge without buying a paper or getting out the tiles. I can look up craft or recycling ideas easily. My husband uses it for doing a daily Latin tutorial and keeping weather stats. He also researches meticulously the old books he wants to purchase. And can compare prices between booksellers all over the world. We have quite a library, so it has not replaced the kind of books he likes to read.
But if it all went down tomorrow, I will know how to cope. Not so sure my kids will!
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Borrowing records when you couldn't even tape them - that makes the moment even more sweet - as well as a cool Roger Dean cover which one might pore over, had it not just been gratuitously flung at you by a random internet stranger
And yeah, BL, I do all that kind of thing, and of course it's great. And (this sounds like a sop to the mods to keep my lame thread open) my gain from SoF has been / is similar to yours, and I get a lot from an online devotional too.
But at the same time, I am starting to wonder if the world-in-my-pocket (actually a large-ish bag for me - I don't have a smart phone!) has also un-enchanted something about the World for me. Life pre-internet might have something in common with Lent, and there seems no going back; doing without feels outlandish, like choosing a pole-top in a desert somewhere.
Here's something else relevant and Lent-y which I cherish (and have posted on the ship before), having read it in print owing to the recommendation of a corporeal someone who (and I can't remember) might have touched my hand as she did so. She didn't breath in my ear...it's not that kind of poem . Don't be thrown by the title.
[Second link edited - WW]
[ 02. August 2015, 07:00: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Mark-in-Manchester please note that in my yoof I wore a leather jacket, not a parka and I rode a machine with a larger engine large and far safer wheels and, whilst I might listen to and enjoy bands like The Who I was never, but never, a mod!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
...and nowadays we even order something online instead of having the joy of shuffling through the racks, be it in bookshop or record shop, and coming across something we hadn't thought of getting but that is there, in our hand, like a BJH LP holding a Summer Soldier. On the internet we get what we want but miss the joy of suddenly finding the unexpected.
Forgive me if I edit your Patrick Kavanagh link to a page not to a download.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I think people were more patient before the internet. We accepted that waiting was just part of life, now it's all about getting everything as quickly as possible. If you have to wait ten seconds for a webpage to load, you consider it "slow". And this has started to condition people to expect things to be quick in everyday life.
We used to make phone calls. Business now depends to a large extent on emails instead. While it's good to have the facts of a business conversation recorded in writing, you can also sometimes come away at the end of the day without having actually spoken to any of the people you're doing business with (other than your immediate colleagues). On a personal level, texts and Facebook posts seem to have pretty much replaced even email as well as phone calls or actual visits. And of course, written communication can be edited, refined and polished which real-time speech can't.
The internet has become the default reference source for any query. No more looking up books, visiting libraries, bookshops.
I think the main word I'd use to describe how I personally feel about all this is:
Disconnection.
There are times when I'm sick of the chitinous clatters of keyboards, the glow of screens, typing in logons, and clicking endlessly on this, that and the other, to communicate with someone I'll never meet or see. The older I get the more I feel I've had an overdose of this new, incredibly seductive, artificial world where nothing is actually real, it just seems like it. I create digital photos now instead of real ones and sometimes graphic design in Photoshop. But it doesn't actually exist anywhere. There are works in museums that have lasted hundreds of years. Nothing I create electronically will last anywhere near as long.
And I want real people in my life, and real things, what is timeless and true and honest, not this illusory e-stuff that depends on the unseen force of electricity. Look around any public space and almost everybody will be using their phones or some e-device. It's a national obsession, and while it has its good points, I don't think it's healthy, long-term, to use it as much as we do.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
I know information is there at a click, but there is nothing to beat looking things up in a really big dictionary, and getting waylaid by words you'd never heard of in parts of the dictionary you weren't consulting in the first place.
And you can't curl up in a chair with a computer. I know you can Curl with a Kindle, but if you need to refer back because you've can't remember who on earth Mr. Smith is, then its far easier to flick back through pages rather than on a Kindle.
And Google maps are great for finding your way from A to B, or seeing exactly where Acacia Avenue is in the scheme of things, but there is nothing like reading an Ordnance Survey map for the sheer pleasure of maps. (OK, not all of us are map mad!)
Businesses and Commerce couldn't do without computers, the internet and emails, I know. But a home without books and maps stacked on bookshelves, and piles of old vinyls and CD's? That's not me.
And I'm happy to be a dinosaur, even if I am a dinosaur who is techie happy!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I like maps. If I'm on holiday and I don't have one, I feel like I'm wasting my time, and when I get one, then the world seems to open itself up and call out for my attention. I don't have a satnav, in part because I am scared that the phenomenon I am grasping for in this thread would straight-away ingest the magic from this small remnant of my analogue life.
But here I am, home alone, getting some kind of solace from your (pl) virtual company. Funny thing, life.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Is SoF a disconnected virtual artificial 'community'? Or a portal to other like minded people who prove they care in dozens of different ways? There is less community happening in my local street than on here much of the time.
I have plenty of real life stuff happening. I don't use SoF as a substitute. But it is a far less demanding relationship - the plus being that I can throw out one question and get a wonderful variety of answers to it from all over the world and from those with many different beliefs.
Couldn't do that before the internet.
BL. Happy to have this cake and eat it too.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The Internet is highly seductive, as has been mentioned up-thread. There's little doubt that it is changing human interaction. For better or for worse? Who can say.
I suppose it's a case of take it or leave it, although eventually we may not have the choice as the world of tech will demand we take part in it or be left behind.
It's also strange because no matter what technologies, changes and aberrations we create for ourselves ISTM human aspiration and *the way we are* hasn't really fundamentally changed since the dawn of civilisation.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
and coming across something we hadn't thought of getting but that is there, in our hand,
This. The internet makes reacquiring something exotic or distant easier and cheaper. But you have to know you wanted it.
I regularly leave a bookshop with a book I did not know existed by an author of whom I was unaware. Harder to do online.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I don't think I miss that time. I remember finding it hard to organise myself to read and return my library books on time, and how fiddly they were to read in bed, especially when they were big hardback books, and how heavy to carry with me. I remember finding it hard to find information on things I wanted to find out about.
I really love having a Kindle with lots and lots of books on it. If I forget who Mr Smith was, I just do a search for Mr Smith and find all the references to him, much faster than flicking back. And I love having a book to read with me all the time - even if I forget to take my Kindle with me, I have a Kindle app on my phone. And because I always have my phone with me, if I need to make a note of something, I can do it on my phone - I don't need pen and paper. It makes it much easier to be organised. I can put an appointment straight away on my phone and always refer to it.
And I love being able to look up favourite songs and musicals and operas on YouTube and watch and listen. So much information online - if you don't have much money and can't afford to buy music or books, the internet is really wonderful. And if you like to interact with people but find lots of 'real life' interaction tiring and difficult for whatever reason, and if you find it easier to read and write than to speak and listen, then the internet is fantastic.
I really love being able to look up anything in the Oxford English Dictionary online, wherever I am - and see the etymologies and the first recorded usages. It's so much better than little one volume dictionaries.
I have seen a lot of people on the internet lament the lost 'good old days', but I am not one of them - I am so grateful for the internet and tablets and smartphones and ereaders. They have made my life easier and richer, and made things I like far more accessible to me.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
When I was young, I pined for an Encyclopedia Britanica of my very own so that I could look up stuff whenever I wanted to. My family never could fit it in the budget, and besides, there was always the library, right? Now I can google it all. Yay! Well, yeah, you have to sort through the crap info but it's not too hard with a little persistence.
And as to music, I'm still a fogie who has mainly cds and also have a vinyl collection I can dust off. I love buying interesting cds from Amazon where I may sample so tracks. So, no, I'm not too regretful about the present.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I have seen a lot of people on the internet lament the lost 'good old days', but I am not one of them
Nor me. I have two Kindles, one paperwhite (reading daytime, especially outdoors) and one Fire (reading in bed with backlight) and I love them both.
I am never bored with the Internet always at hand - and I find conversation much easier online. I tend to rush conversations in RL and miss out a lot.
I love my specialist FB groups too - we can obsess to our hearts content without boring the disinterested
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
I think there's something to be said for Mark's Lent-y ascesis of the intellect. Not very All-Saintsy, but Heidegger and Ellul said much the same thing. Borgmann said that we've lost the Things that gave us focus (LPs, biker mags, books, maps ...), substituting Devices which function merely as dispensers of experience.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Wow, Q - I'd like to know more about that, here or by PM. I have a very little philosophical reading - I'm an engineer by training - but I'm interested in things to read which might be sufficiently introductory...
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
I buy books online nowadays, but the excitement of seeing them come through the letterbox is just as good as getting them from a bookshop. And I still have a vastish ibrary of actual books, vinyl and CDs. The SoF is not a substitute for RL people, but a different kind of contact with its own value. Have cake and eat it - why not?
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I'm curious about it too - the idea that things give us focus. I don't think I've found that for myself. My focus has always been the content rather than the dispenser of it - I like the dispenser to be as unobtrusive as possible, rather than an object of focus for me, because otherwise it is distracting. Perhaps I am not the norm, though, since so many people say they miss books.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Typewriters. Click click click click click kaching!
Travel: post cards and not phoning unless arrested or out of money.
Penpals.
Going to the record store on Saturday morning. Sam the Record Man.
Yes, we have lost something about the pace of life. Just setting awhile. No one knows how to be bored any more and how to become less bored all on their ownsome.
This topic is a very good one. Thanks Mark!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
TP's favourite thing is books. Doesn't own a kindle. Spends hours every day reading with white gloves on, so the antique pages and covers are not damaged further. His second favourite thing is getting one in the mail after researching on-line what is available in his esoteric preferred field of Literature. His third favourite thing is going to second hand bookshops. But these days he struggles to find anything in them that he really wants to read because after decades of doing this he has a lot of tomes from the periods he loves. Doesn't stop him browsing though.
Just this morning another parcel arrived full of Greek elegiac poetry with English translations of each on the left hand side pages. Not a widely available set of books. He wouldn't have them if not for the internet. Nor would he find the collections of 18th century sermons around here.
It has given his passion and focus even more scope for exploration now that he has largely exhausted locally and readily available stuff.
The world is now his bookshop, and he loves it.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I suppose it's fair to say that the Web has made us all a wee bit lazy: if something comes up in conversation about, say an actor or politician or whatever (especially how old they are, or where they came from), it can be helpful.
And while we keep a proper, paper dictionary and a copy of Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable beside where we do crosswords, if they fail, there's always Google.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
Just this morning another parcel arrived full of Greek elegiac poetry with English translations of each on the left hand side pages. Not a widely available set of books. He wouldn't have them if not for the internet. Nor would he find the collections of 18th century sermons around here.
Yes, I get that entirely - and I wouldn't be ordering 40 yr old motorbike spares from Poland. But if you'll forgive me, I'm trying to get at something underneath these facts.
While we are focussed on the goal (if I may paraphrase Fineline, who raised this helpful idea) then all of this is an unalloyed route to cheaper, faster, more reliably-achieved...goals.
But there are bits of life, still, where cheaper-faster-more-reliable would sound like incongruous metrics of success - where process is still important. Perhaps most obviously art (and music, and poetry...), also religion, also (BL) at least the _writing_ of literature**.
So perhaps I am raising the possibility that something of meaning lent by the struggle to create, also used to reside in a whole load of what used to be necessarily process-driven activities - and that living my life used to feel more like curating an art project than it does now, and that I miss it.
I understand that this might hit someone like me particularly hard - an engineer who invested a lot in the processes by which things work. But I also wonder if the _meaning_ of a small collection of books (and a much-anticipated pilgrimage to Hay-on-Wye (sorry non-UK folks) when ones local sources are exhausted), like the _meaning_ of an old bike which might this weekend manage a 100 mile round trip, if only my latest funky bodges hold out - was different then. And this is why I am thinking of Lent, where less is more.
**it strikes me as I am about to press 'send' that a cheaper-faster-more-reliable marriage ought to join that list of the incongruous, but right now sounds really really attractive. Perhaps I need to pray about that.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
I suppose it's fair to say that the Web has made us all a wee bit lazy: if something comes up in conversation about, say an actor or politician or whatever (especially how old they are, or where they came from), it can be helpful.
Agreed - and I'm as guilty of this as anyone. But, in the old days, we just said, "We don't know" and left it there. Which begs the question: do we really need to know this stuff? Or has its availability made us more annoyed if we can't find it out?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
oooh - can I add one about music, which senior (if I may) shippies might be able to speak to, and which takes things back a stage further?
What about the _meaning_ of live music for you - say choral singing in church or an orchestral concert - before vinyl lp's (late 50s?) or FM radio (late 60s?) made the recorded experience that much less of the wobbly approximation which 78s and AM radio can offer?
(or perhaps there are those here who had super-strict no-music upbringings?)
(sorry BT - x-post)
[ 03. August 2015, 08:04: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
So perhaps I am raising the possibility that something of meaning lent by the struggle to create, also used to reside in a whole load of what used to be necessarily process-driven activities - and that living my life used to feel more like curating an art project than it does now, and that I miss it.
That is interesting. I wonder if all generations have found this with new inventions that have simplified life - such as washing machines, cars, electricty, running water, etc. I must confess, I don't crave for past struggles - I still have plenty of struggles, and am glad that some have been alleviated.
Although I remember reading something C.S. Lewis wrote about transport - cars, trains, etc. He said that the speed spoils the journey, and that walking is a more natural way to get to places (something like that - he seemed quite anti speed). And although I didn't agree with his logic, I agreed with the experience, because I find speed of travelling difficult and disorienting, and always prefer to walk places if I can (which of course means not travelling far - but then C.S. Lewis was questioning our need to travel far). It's over twenty years since I read him, so I may be misremembering slightly, but I think that was the gist.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I started researching my family history well before the internet, when it involved going to a registrars to look up original birth, marriage and death records, or going to a library to sit in front of a microfilm reader, slowly adding siblings, or pushing back another generation.
Now the birth / marriage / death type of stuff is online and it's possible to produce a family tree very quickly. The good thing about this is that it speeds up the initial process, making it possible to gather quickly the information needed for a trip to the archives, to go through the meaty stuff - Kirk discipline for "acts of great uncleanness" sad entries on poor roll, membership of friendly societies, prizewinners in produce shows. All the things which make the long-dead more than just their dates.
I still get the buzz of turning dusty pages, smelling the sublime old paper smell, spotting the name I'm looking for. It's a better buzz now, because the nuts and bolts have been put in place quickly and efficiently.
The downside is the genealogical equivalent of quote:
a friend's Apple-cloud-thing, where he has access to (as far as I can see) All Music
There are some huge family trees posted on the internet, with tens of thousands of names. These can't possibly have been researched properly - someone has just found a chunk on line which fits into (or which they think fits into) their own tree and they've cut-and-pasted it in and there's no way of knowing whether the stuff which has been cut-and-pasted was researched properly in the first place.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I think there's an element of nostalgia here. I too can understand the pleasure of an LP or a physical book. I recognise however that the way I feel about them is at least partly to do with being reminded of what it was like to be younger when such things were just the way you read and listened.
I was going to say that there'll soon be a generation that misses the iPod as it gives way to the phone - but then I thought of a better example. I myself often miss the earlier versions of the internet - usenet, IRC, simple HTML webpages and forums - the net before the web, and the web before social media. And I'm not the only one - have a look at Tilde club. There are many similar sites (I joined one but didn't do much with it in the end).
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
My focus has always been the content rather than the dispenser of it - I like the dispenser to be as unobtrusive as possible, rather than an object of focus for me, because otherwise it is distracting. Perhaps I am not the norm, though, since so many people say they miss books.
Does art matter to you, or is this something you don’t really see the point of? We’re surrounded by designs – everything in your house has been designed by someone who sat down, thought about how something should look, considered alternatives and settled on one, with the intention of presenting that thing in a particular way, to its best advantage, or to making it appeal to a particular section of society. The “dispenser” is what you see first, before anything else and its appearance is what influences most people to either stop and look, or move on to something else. It is part of the object – an intrinsic part that can enhance your enjoyment of it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
My focus has always been the content rather than the dispenser of it - I like the dispenser to be as unobtrusive as possible, rather than an object of focus for me, because otherwise it is distracting. Perhaps I am not the norm, though, since so many people say they miss books.
Does art matter to you, or is this something you don’t really see the point of? We’re surrounded by designs – everything in your house has been designed by someone who sat down, thought about how something should look, considered alternatives and settled on one, with the intention of presenting that thing in a particular way, to its best advantage, or to making it appeal to a particular section of society. The “dispenser” is what you see first, before anything else and its appearance is what influences most people to either stop and look, or move on to something else. It is part of the object – an intrinsic part that can enhance your enjoyment of it.
I love art, both to look at and to create. But when I'm reading, I'm focused on the art of the words - the characters, the story, the ideas. I'm not multitasking with focusing on the art of how the book is presented - my mind is totally absorbed by the words and the images they are creating in my head. Same with music. It is the music which is filling my head, regardless of where it comes from.
My mind focuses on one thing at a time and is totally absorbed by that thing. If I'm having to focus on taking a tape out of a tape player and turn it round, or put a needle in just the right place on a record, or work how I can hold a book close enough to my eyes and stay comfortable and for it not to close over my nose, all these things are distractions, and I find them intrusive.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
My focus has always been the content rather than the dispenser of it - I like the dispenser to be as unobtrusive as possible, rather than an object of focus for me, because otherwise it is distracting. Perhaps I am not the norm, though, since so many people say they miss books.
But books have so many more unobtrusive clues. As you hold a book and read it, you know how far through you are, because you can feel it in your hands. That's so much more unobtrusive than a page counter or something.
YMMV, but for me, especially if I'm reading in bed, it's easier to turn the pages of a paperback than on a tablet / kindle, and easier to not accidentally turn the page when you don't mean to. Books are a much more forgiving interface.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
YMMV, but for me, especially if I'm reading in bed, it's easier to turn the pages of a paperback than on a tablet / kindle, and easier to not accidentally turn the page when you don't mean to. Books are a much more forgiving interface.
I'm totally the opposite. I wear glasses, so it's uncomfortable to read in bed unless I take them off. Then I can't read unless the book is a couple of inches from my eyes. If it's a big book, I can't see the whole page at once. With my Kobo Mini, I can. And I can make the font bigger and so hold it a bit further from my eyes. I can make the font sans serif, which is much less distracting than the serif fonts most paper books have. I can hold the Kobo with one hand, and turn the pages with that some hand - much easier than trying to keep a book open with both hands as well as turn the pages with one hand. And with the Kobo I see one page at a time rather than two, which is simpler. And unlike paper books, it doesn't close around my nose if I fail to keep it open wide enough!
I often get so absorbed in a book I don't pay attention to how far along I am. But with a paper book, I do notice right at the beginning and right at the end, because it's harder to keep open with only a few pages one side and lots the other - it's uneven and distracting. I prefer holding a paper book when I'm in the middle. That sort of tactile feedback is a lot more obtrusive to me than a tiny page counter at the bottom of the page. Besides, paper books also tend to have page numbers, so no real difference there anyway. Except that paper books often have them at a different part of the page - one book will have them at the bottom in the middle, another at the top right, etc. - so the placement of them provides a distraction, while with my ereaders, it's always in the same place, or I can even hide it if I like.
[ 03. August 2015, 13:15: Message edited by: Fineline ]
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
I have lost part of the sight in one eye, and the other one is not so great. There are now paper books that I must reject outright. If you are so foolish a publisher as to issue a book in dark brown ink on cream-colored stock (no joke, somebody did this), I can't read it. Also agate type, paper so sheer that the printing on the reverse side shows dimly through, funny scripts -- all insuperable barriers now.
None of this is a problem with e-books. I foresee many more of them in my future, unless they perfect those retinal-cell cloning procedures they keep talking about.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
also (BL) at least the _writing_ of literature**.
So perhaps I am raising the possibility that something of meaning lent by the struggle to create, also used to reside in a whole load of what used to be necessarily process-driven activities - and that living my life used to feel more like curating an art project than it does now, and that I miss it.
. [/QB]
Mark, if you think the acquiring of objects of use or interest - via the internet has somehow impeded or replaced our ability to make it up, make it over, make it do or do without you are wronger than a wrong thing is wrong. My husband is using his internet found purchases in order to learn to write his own poetry in both Latin and Greek. He is also a calligrapher, a scholar and a dabbler in philosophy. He is creating handwritten books to pass on to each of his children. They are full of his own thoughts, favourite quotes and original verses.
I have just come in from my studio where I have been exploring a new creative avenue with great delight. I would never have thought I could have so much fun recycling until I saw some examples on Pinterest and went off on a tangent of my own that has been very satisfying.
If your creative life is now poorer than it was before the world wide web, then perhaps the problem is in you, more than in the internet. Perhaps you are jaded, time poor, distracted by too many possibilities or simply in a season of personal change that has left you feeling dissatisfied. There will always be hills and valleys. There certainly were back in 'the good old days' (formerly known as 'these hard times').
You have everything you need within you to live life as a continuous art project again, even if the tools have changed. Just do it.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
... I can make the font bigger ...
I've never owned an e-book reader, but that is a feature that I'd appreciate; I recently had my enjoyment of a book somewhat lessened by the print being too small; I found that I couldn't read it for as long as I might have wanted to because my eyes (and my arms from having to hold the book closer than usual) were getting tired.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I have lost part of the sight in one eye, and the other one is not so great. There are now paper books that I must reject outright. If you are so foolish a publisher as to issue a book in dark brown ink on cream-colored stock (no joke, somebody did this), I can't read it.
I would actually find that colour combination easier to read, because it's the stark black/white contrasts which are difficult for me. Which is another reason why I find ereaders (non-lit) easier - a grey background is easier than a white one. Ereaders are definitely a lot more adaptable for people with a whole variety of different needs and disabilities.
On 'read an ebook day,' where people posted about why they like ereaders, there were people posting who had difficulties using their hands, from head injury, from arthritis, etc. - who found ereaders much more accessible, as well as people with visual and sensory difficulties. And mothers of babies were often posting that it makes it easier for them to read with one hand while holding their baby with the other hand. So what may seem like a loss for some people is a significant gain for others.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
... I can make the font bigger ...
I've never owned an e-book reader, but that is a feature that I'd appreciate; I recently had my enjoyment of a book somewhat lessened by the print being too small; I found that I couldn't read it for as long as I might have wanted to because my eyes (and my arms from having to hold the book closer than usual) were getting tired.
It's definitely worth buying an ereader, Piglet - the small, simple ones are not expensive. I also used to have difficulty with books with font too small, or font too close together. Ereaders let you space the lines out too. I find it's a lot less tiring on my eyes, so I can read a lot more than I used to.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
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Posted
I really like having an e-reader, so much smaller and lighter than any books to carry around and mine contains a hundred books or so. Lots of books came free, things like Dickens and the complete collections of Saki and Mapp and Lucia, not that I'm enjoying the EF Benson much, but I love the Saki. The e-reader doesn't set alarms off in libraries either, unlike library books.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I can see how they're good for people with disabilities. But it's hard for me to see them as anything other than just another gimmick otherwise: just another expensive, potentially fragile, potentially theftworthy e-device that will need constant recharging and upgrades for its short life, while manufacturers compete to bring out "improved" versions - anything to get you to keep spending on it.
I had to think about why else I feel so unenthusiastic about these things... for me personally the persistent greys and blacks, the metal and plastic are a turn-off. It feels, for want of a better word, something I'm just not comfortable with: cold, alien, impersonal, functional, industrial, dispiriting, lacking in personality and character. (I hate grey.) You can customize the books to all look the same and say all that matters is the content. That's not how I experience a book. It's also a tangible reminder that bookshops are a dying species and publishing is on its way out: anyone can create a Word document, convert it to a pdf and upload it/self-publish it to the internet. Quality, in short, doesn't matter much these days, and has been relegated to a back seat in favour of profitability and functionality. Well, so be it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
Oh, that is another grand thing about e-books. Instant gratification. No longer do you have to trek to the bookstore and hope they have a copy of Heraclitus. Or order on Amazon.com, and wait three or four days for the physical book to show up unless your mailman nobbles it. You can buy the e-book, or download a free version on Gutenberg.com, and be reading it within a few clicks of the keyboard. Nearly everything in public domain is easily found on line for free. The world, the entire production of the mind of man, is at your fingertips. For those of us with truly esoteric research needs, it is a grand time to be alive.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
My ereaders feel really personal to me - I chose and bought colourful, soft covers, which also protect them, so I don't worry about them being fragile. The fact that I can choose the font and spacing also makes it feel really personal to me. I love that the Kobo Mini has dyslexic font - I'm not dyslexic, but I have Irlen Syndrome and the dyslexic font is so lovely to read. My ereaders weren't expensive - the Kobo Mini was £30, and the Nook was £30. I read lots of free books on them. They don't even need much recharging - once charged, they last weeks. I understand some people find them impersonal, but they have made reading a much richer, more personal experience for me. And they haven't replaced paper books - paper books are still being published and read. No one is being forced to read from ereaders; they are an alternative which makes reading a lot easier for many people, and accessible to people it may not have been accessible to before. I think it's good for reading to be made as accessible as possible.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
The ease-of-publication thing is an entire separate can of worms. But it is not something that you can actually blame on the e-reader. It is the internet that actually makes this possible; the e-reader is simply one of the devices that allows you to read (or not read) garbage.
And the vast turgid flood of sludge emerging from the wanna-be writers of the world is actually a good thing for publishers. They have always been the gatekeepers, picking the nuggets out of the slush for us. Now more than ever, they are needed. All they need to do is to figure out how to monetize it.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I bought a Kindle to use when I'm traveling by train or bus. The size of the font is adjustable, but what is even more important is that the distance between lines is adjustable.
My main problem in reading an ordinary book on a moving vehicle is keeping track of which line I'm on.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Does this loss have a name? Have you seen anyone writing (on the web ) about it? Or did you feel the same looking back at 25 from 45, both experiences pre-dating the internet?
It would be interesting to compare shippies experiences on how they navigated life best at 20- 25, 40-45, 60- 65 and 80- 85, and what loss they felt the most at each stage.
For me the loss of freedom in my personal life owing to the demands of raising four children at the other end of the continent from extended family was there at both 25 and 45. The internet was not part of our household over those 20 years. I am still a carer (for both parent and grandchildren) but life is much more enjoyable now and the internet is part of that.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
I commute by tram and either read or crochet, whilst my phone is an ancient nokia which only allows speech or texting.
Until recently i neither thought of myself as old or out of date, but this assumption might just need to be reconsidered
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Full Circle
Shipmate
# 15398
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Posted
I miss the excitement off travel. I used to get off a train or plane and then go to the tourist information to find a place to stay - starting the holiday with a mini adventure. Nowadays accommodation all booked online before I set off.
There is an organisational gain but an existential loss of adventure
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Beware the monocausal fallacy (Anon)
Posts: 232 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I worry about people missing out on the the 'here and now'.
I see Mums walking down the street ignoring their children in favour of their smart phones all the time. I see groups of people in restaurants chatting away - but not to each other - on their phones. I see people walking in beautiful countryside oblivious and they are looking at phones. I see people at concerts and events spending all their time videoing instead of enjoying.
Back to Kindles. The best thing is lying on the beach, on your back, light as a feather Kindle in one hand and all the books in the world on tap! I also like to read on my back in bed. I can read the heaviest of tomes and hold it in one hand
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
My Kindle talks to my tablet, phone and laptop so I can keep reading from where I have reached in the book, whichever device I am using.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
There is nothing better for traveling than an ebook. I used to travel with a suitcase full of cheap paperbacks, which once read would be abandoned in hotel rooms. Now I can take clothes, instead! Because I have thousands of books on my Ipad.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Full Circle:
... I used to get off a train or plane and then go to the tourist information to find a place to stay - starting the holiday with a mini adventure. Nowadays accommodation all booked online before I set off ...
Actually that's the kind of adventure I can live without; I like to know that things like that are "sorted".
Having said that, for booking flights I'm happy to use the services of a travel agent, as they're much more likely to find a good deal than I am, and they're not intimidated by the computer in the way I sometimes am.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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