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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: There is NOTHING right about this
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Why does a 9 year old girl need to know how to handle a sub-machine gun?
Because she's planning to visit Rotherham?
Which is the gun-lobby argument, that the more guns, the safer everyone is. In other words, UTTER CRAP.
The answer to the Rotherham troubles is not to arm girls, it is to stop men thinking they can rape and abuse women without and comeback. That rape culture is the problem, and "more guns" is not the answer.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it's so, when that crazed, wildly shooting gun man comes in busting into their little church, they will be the hero who saves everyone.
Sadly, this is not unheard of. Whilst I share the concern about some who carry, and the reasons they may do so, this one is not entirely unfounded.
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just across the river from me is a place where little kidz and their parents can play (under close supervision) with excavators and diggers - and you guys in the US of A let them play with machine guns?
You are stark, staring, mad -
In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)? Heck, it was seriously suggested at one point to ban pointy kitchen knives. Y'all are PC-batshit crazy. Whatever became of the Britain that survived the Blitz?
As you would see. had you bothered to read the thread, plenty of us in the US think handing a child a submachine gun is nuts.
Your anti-US bigotry is unbecoming of a man of the cloth. May God forgive you, as well.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Yes, I'm aware that someone did shoot up a church one time. I just don't think that the one in a million chance that it's going to happen again, in their particular little church, is a good reason to stay armed 24/7.
Here's some comments on the NRA site about it all.
NRA tweets.
I was sort of scared until I saw the guy calling himself Munch Housen and now I'm really scared.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it's so, when that crazed, wildly shooting gun man comes in busting into their little church, they will be the hero who saves everyone.
Sadly, this is not unheard of. Whilst I share the concern about some who carry, and the reasons they may do so, this one is not entirely unfounded.
Sure, but that is within a culture where guns are commonplace and considered "normal". IMO it's far less likely to happen in a culture where the only people who carry guns are responsible hunters, soldiers and criminals - not Joe Public (and his wife).
quote:
In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)? Heck, it was seriously suggested at one point to ban pointy kitchen knives.
This came as a response to a lot of teen-on-teen knife crime in cities, blown up by the media to panic proportions. Many folk here do think it is too draconian (for instance my son, who is a Theatre Technician and finds such a knife very useful, a tool of his trade). However it is difficult to draft a precise law which would not have unintended consequences.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)? Heck, it was seriously suggested at one point to ban pointy kitchen knives. Y'all are PC-batshit crazy. Whatever became of the Britain that survived the Blitz?
In countries where gun control is sensible, knife assaults are more common. There's a debate in my city right now about banning knives because people get stabbed outside of pubs all too often. We're also dealing with people using bear spray on people, which may lead to tighter controls on this.
It's not about PC and bats. It's about context, what misbehaviour is occurring and trying to increase public safety.
Of course one difference between knives and guns is that drive by knifings infrequent.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal
If you are going to berate people for not reading thoroughly, please do not make the same mistake.
quote:
unless it’s a knife with a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62 cm) or less
[ 28. August 2014, 15:21: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal
If you are going to berate people for not reading thoroughly, please do not make the same mistake.
quote:
unless it’s a knife with a folding blade 3 inches long (7.62 cm) or less
Same to you:
quote:
Lock knives (knives with blades that can be locked when unfolded) are not folding knives, and are illegal to carry in public without good reason.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However it is difficult to draft a precise law which would not have unintended consequences.
Which is precisely the point - some in the US are concerned about the "unintended consequences" of further gun control.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Yes, I'm aware that someone did shoot up a church one time. I just don't think that the one in a million chance that it's going to happen again, in their particular little church, is a good reason to stay armed 24/7.
Here's some comments on the NRA site about it all.
NRA tweets.
I was sort of scared until I saw the guy calling himself Munch Housen and now I'm really scared.
Reading NRA propaganda is good for a laugh, until you realize they're serious.
As far as the church shooting/armaments issue, I'll leave that to individual churches to decide how they feel about that. I know clergy on both sides of that discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
In countries where gun control is sensible, knife assaults are more common. There's a debate in my city right now about banning knives because people get stabbed outside of pubs all too often. We're also dealing with people using bear spray on people, which may lead to tighter controls on this.
This suggests the issue might not be firearms, or knives, or whatever the weapon-du-jour might be, but societal issues at large. Why are people so violent?
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It's not about PC and bats. It's about context, what misbehaviour is occurring and trying to increase public safety.
Understood - but I tend to see it as sticking a band-aid over a sucking chest wound; it may help control bleeding, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Of course one difference between knives and guns is that drive by knifings infrequent.
True. Of course, so are drive-by shootings, frankly.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
How the hell are the police supposed to tackle knife crime, and the common habit among kids, of carrying knives (as protection), unless there are laws against carrying knives? Knife crime has blighted London in recent years, involving many deaths among teenagers.
If there weren't such laws, the police would not be able to search an unsavoury looking gang for knives.
People who use knives for their profession are exempt, e.g. chefs, gardeners, and so on.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Fair enough. But that law is neither completely good or completely bad.
Yes, knives which lock are safer for the user in many circumstances, but locks also make it easier to stab someone multiple times. Rather nick your fingers or be carried away in ambulance?
BTW, if you are worried about safety, the basic lock back is one of the least secure locking mechanisms in design and in maintenance.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
This suggests the issue might not be firearms, or knives, or whatever the weapon-du-jour might be, but societal issues at large. Why are people so violent?
Actually, in most of our countries, violence is dropping and has continued to do since the mid-1980s. We have some parts of Canada where crime rates have increased, which are those with younger populations and there is a specific increase among aboriginal youth. Drugs, drug policies and gangs are also factors.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn
As you would see. had you bothered to read the thread, plenty of us in the US think handing a child a submachine gun is nuts.
Your anti-US bigotry is unbecoming of a man of the cloth. May God forgive you, as well.
And a few of us have expressed, on this thread and others through the years, that gun culture in general is abhorrent to them.
If I saw some random Brit on a BBC man on the street interview say this, I would get what he was saying. But when my fellow Shipmates say this, it sends me to the roof, because some of you all have been talking with, praying with, rejoicing with, struggling with, and playing with Americans-- a lot of you on a daily basis-- for almost sixteen fucking years. Hell, Ruth, Laura, and Erin helped fucking build the boards. Ruth ( in particular, along with a few other brave souls) spent the years after 9/11 loudly condemning the scary wave of nationalism that followed-- loudly, consistently, unflinchingly, even as some of her best friends were pretty much laughing at her. That's where her damn avatar title comes from.
And still some of you all ( see how I didn't generalize? Because I'm fucking trying to be fair) would rather reach for the worst, ugliest amorphic stereotype in your cultural kitbag rather than informing that stereotype with people you actually goddamn know.
If a godawful tragedy like this occurred in British soil, you'd have a dozen 'Murricans weeping and praying with you in a heart beat. And you know it.
[ 28. August 2014, 16:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
With you, Kelly. This was an avoidable tragedy with horrible personal consequences, but not a good reason, nor a good time, for politicized stereotyping by anyone.
[Writing as someone whose critical opinions about Second Amendment freedoms have been much aired over the decade I've been here.]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Thank you. Genuinely.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn
As you would see. had you bothered to read the thread, plenty of us in the US think handing a child a submachine gun is nuts.
Your anti-US bigotry is unbecoming of a man of the cloth. May God forgive you, as well.
And a few of us have expressed, on this thread and others through the years, that gun culture in general is abhorrent to them.
If I saw some random Brit on a BBC man on the street interview say this, I would get what he was saying. But when my fellow Shipmates say this, it sends me to the roof, because some of you all have been talking with, praying with, rejoicing with, struggling with, and playing with Americans-- a lot of you on a daily basis-- for almost sixteen fucking years. Hell, Ruth, Laura, and Erin helped fucking build the boards. Ruth ( in particular, along with a few other brave souls) spent the years after 9/11 loudly condemning the scary wave of nationalism that followed-- loudly, consistently, unflinchingly, even as some of her best friends were pretty much laughing at her. That's where her damn avatar title comes from.
And still some of you all ( see how I didn't generalize? Because I'm fucking trying to be fair) would rather reach for the worst, ugliest amorphic stereotype in your cultural kitbag rather than informing that stereotype with people you actually goddamn know.
If a godawful tragedy like this occurred in British soil, you'd have a dozen 'Murricans weeping and praying with you in a heart beat. And you know it.
I'm assuming here you're responding to Bishop's Finger, and not me.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly.
@ Barnabas62: What Kelly said - thank you.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Fair enough. But that law is neither completely good or completely bad.
Yes, knives which lock are safer for the user in many circumstances, but locks also make it easier to stab someone multiple times. Rather nick your fingers or be carried away in ambulance?
Neither, thanks. But as, someone mentioned earlier, violent crime has been dropping in the developed world. The benefits, to my mind, far outweigh the risks.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, if you are worried about safety, the basic lock back is one of the least secure locking mechanisms in design and in maintenance.
Depends on the specifics of the knife. That said, my current personal choice is a liner-lock with a backup safety mechanism called AutoLAWKS. Though I also love the simple ring-locking mechanism of the classic Opinel.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah, dude, sorry, I was picking up where you left off, and in my froth didn't include the provocative quote.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
No worries. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
But as, someone mentioned earlier, violent crime has been dropping in the developed world.
Given this, it is even more difficult to justify the NRA machine guns in prams propoganda.
Money is enough justification, I suppose.
ETA: I am not assuming you share their extremism.
[ 28. August 2014, 18:06: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
And, what's more, there are plenty of gun-owning, gun-using Shipmates who aren't dangerous whackos (comet, anyone?) to dispel the idea that anyone who would want to own or shoot a gun must be some violent sociopath. I'm a rare bird in my family, as I don't own guns or hunt, but does that mean I'm one of the two men in Clan Astuanax who aren't would-be crazed killers? Uh, no. My uncle, for instance, is a perfectly decent human being, and an NRA member. No contradiction there. No, don't say there is to be a smartass. He's a good person. He pays his dues to the NRA. Yes, someone can be both. Don't demonize people because some spokesfolk say nutty things.
Where I grew up, handling guns wasn't even a rite of passage; it was just something you did. There was nothing unusual about having shot skeet or gone dove hunting in elementary school—if anything, it was a bit unusual if you hadn't. The rite of passage was your first nice gun, a 30.06 or 12 gauge that might have belonged to your grandfather or uncle, with an adult stock that finally fit you. Even in the fairly large city I grew up in, dove, duck, and deer hunting were as common as bass fishing—and, especially in the rural southeast, the opening of deer gun season was a de facto public holiday, with schools closing and everything. If you worked on a ranch, there was a 30-30 in the back—a "truck gun"—that was an essential tool for dealing with coyotes and other varmints. Weapons, in other words, were tools. They were something that, even if you yourself never owned anything more powerful than an air rifle, you understood. I can appreciate a nice pump action twenty gauge or varmint rifle, and fully understand the appeal of going down to the range and spending the afternoon working through a box or two of rounds. It's a fine line between yoga and target shooting sometimes, what with the breath control, poise as you hold your position, and gently, smoothly, aim and squeeze back on the trigger and exhale. There are, in other words, very good reasons why not at all crazy people might enjoy owning, collecting, and shooting guns, and would take offense to people painting them as violent, psychopathic loonies.
Does this mean that kids should be allowed to handle submachine guns? Of course not. Don't be stupid. They shouldn't be allowed to handle cars either. There are certain things that just should not be put into the hands of somebody who is neither physically nor mentally capable of handling them. An adult with a good bit of driving experience might be trusted with taking a Formula 1 racer around a track for a lap or two with someone coaching them as they went, and might do it for many of the same reasons as someone with a good bit of shooting experience would want to try out a submachine gun at a range with an instructor. It's an exotic, somewhat forbidden, and more powerful version of what they're used to, but in a controlled environment where some of the risks can be minimized—if everybody's keeping their heads screwed on straight.
Letting a child handle a deadly and effective weapon that requires training, strength, and experience to use was a profound lapse in judgment. For fuck's sake, I had to jump through more hoops, sign more forms and waivers, just to ride a bike earlier this year, and I work at the shop! Sure, it was a really nice bike, but the chances of me killing anyone, myself included, by riding a bike are much, much less than by using a weapon specifically designed to be very, very good at killing people.
So no. I don't think "why haven't you banned all the guns? Are you Americans barbarians? When are you banning all the guns?" is the right way to proceed, no more than "when are you banning all the cars, you Philistines?" is. Do I think there ought to be licensing, safety, and physical requirements for gun ownership, like there are for car ownership, as well as concepts analogous to street legality and license classes or commercial licenses for gun ownership? Yes. But banning all guns, or branding all gun owners, gun fanciers, or even NRA members as murderous crazies just isn't right.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
People who use knives for their profession are exempt, e.g. chefs, gardeners, and so on.
And someone I know well was fortunate to be let off with a warning for carrying a small knife to slice his apple on the train. It didn't have a folding blade, you see.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
But as, someone mentioned earlier, violent crime has been dropping in the developed world.
Given this, it is even more difficult to justify the NRA machine guns in prams propoganda.
Money is enough justification, I suppose.
ETA: I am not assuming you share their extremism.
Agreed. And thank you.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
Ariston - nicely put.
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Agreed.
Also-- are we all,hearing the same thing in the phrase " gun culture" ? In my mind, it goes beyond mere gun ownership.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
So no. I don't think "why haven't you banned all the guns? Are you Americans barbarians? When are you banning all the guns?" is the right way to proceed, no more than "when are you banning all the cars, you Philistines?" is. Do I think there ought to be licensing, safety, and physical requirements for gun ownership, like there are for car ownership, as well as concepts analogous to street legality and license classes or commercial licenses for gun ownership? Yes. But banning all guns, or branding all gun owners, gun fanciers, or even NRA members as murderous crazies just isn't right.
But apparently because of the inability to separate the whackos from the normals, the law abiding from the criminal, the mentally ill and the disgruntled, everyone is lumped together. I actually think that this is both reasonable and not. From the standpoint of individual risk management, it may be wise, at least in certain places to assume that people may be armed and some of them may be nuts, say 1 in several hundred. From the standpoint of 'just this one person here', like uncle so-and-so, then it is unreasonable.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
IIRC, the NRA lobbied to block mental health checks prior to being allowed to own a gun. And, the congress people who are owned by, erm, influenced by the NRA also tend to vote against mental health funding.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah, where is the appropriate place to go through the song and dance about how hundreds of thousands of Americans-- including gun owners-/ can scream and yell about stuff like background checks, but gun lobbyists will cockblock them every time? I found the prospect to exhausting to try in Purg.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I read the story on the BBC's web site and I laughed like a drain.
I mean, 9 year old + uzi = dead instructor! It's a Spitting Image gag (showing my age there!).
But let's look on the bright side, there is one less gun instructor and one less future gun owner in the US.
At least it wasn't an adult killing kids, which is the usual scenario. The US will give up guns when she has sacrificed enough of her children and not before, and it is her choice what the number of child sacrifices will be.
Strike this one for the kids though.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, where is the appropriate place to go through the song and dance about how hundreds of thousands of Americans-- including gun owners-/ can scream and yell about stuff like background checks, but gun lobbyists will cockblock them every time? I found the prospect to exhausting to try in Purg.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IIRC, the NRA lobbied to block mental health checks prior to being allowed to own a gun. And, the congress people who are owned by, erm, influenced by the NRA also tend to vote against mental health funding.
I think, from the outside (Canada) that this would be the core issue to tackle, i.e., the patent irresponsibility of this, and the desire of elected officials to put innocent people in danger. Not sure how to advance it, if Saul Alinksy was alive, I'd ask him (one of my heroes during the heady 1960s when we believed we could really make a difference). It was this one that got my attention when I was at university studying community psychology:
quote:
from Wikipedia
Alinsky later threatened a "piss in" at Chicago O'Hare Airport. Alinsky planned to arrange for large numbers of well-dressed African Americans to occupy the urinals and toilets at O'Hare for as long as it took to bring the city to the bargaining table. According to Alinsky, once again the threat alone was sufficient to produce result.
[ 28. August 2014, 22:03: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What a nonsensical and utterly illogical idea. Many rural people in the US rely on hunting as a source of food - do you think they should starve instead?
I call BS on this claim. Outside of a few remote villages in Alaska, I can find no supporting information that hunting is the primary form of food acquisition in the US. And even there, it's hunting AND fishing, not purely hunting.
Most people who go hunting could put food on the table without it. However, they enjoy it, the deer population needs to be controlled. I saw an article recently in the local paper which said that the estimated deer population of Virginia is one million. Approximately fifty-seven thousand are hit by cars every year.
The only other way to control the population would be to hire professionals to shoot the deer; this would be expensive.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I read the story on the BBC's web site and I laughed like a drain.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Chast, hon, when you encounter a pile of puke, it's best just to step over it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I read the story on the BBC's web site and I laughed like a drain.
You need to watch Spitting Image. In the 80's.
Funny how most Darwin Awards are in the US though.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
[In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)?
Carry IN PUBLIC. Read your own links. When's the last time you needed to open mail or slice sausages outside your own home?
Seriously? You wander the streets just itching for the chance to cut through a stray envelope?
[ 28. August 2014, 23:19: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The only other way to control the population would be to hire professionals to shoot the deer; this would be expensive.
Moo
Don't let Wildlife make the mistake of introducing coyote.
It doesn't work out.
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Most people who go hunting could put food on the table without it. However, they enjoy it, the deer population needs to be controlled.
Moo
Also, I thought maybe I'd point out for the benefit of those who don't know this already, among many of the people I know putting food on the table without hunting involves either becoming a vegetarian or relying on the government for food stamps.
Which some people are oddly reluctant to do.
Particularly when there's so much food in the form of deer eating your garden and fruit trees.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
[In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)?
Carry IN PUBLIC. Read your own links. When's the last time you needed to open mail or slice sausages outside your own home?
Seriously? You wander the streets just itching for the chance to cut through a stray envelope?
I use a folding knife a quite lot. Last week, I freed a crow entangled in string which was twisted round a tree branch. I have repaired radiator hoses, cut cloth for impromptu bandages, removed splinters, opened packages, cut string to bind objects, etc. A knife truly is a useful tool.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
What a nonsensical and utterly illogical idea. Many rural people in the US rely on hunting as a source of food - do you think they should starve instead?
I call BS on this claim. Outside of a few remote villages in Alaska, I can find no supporting information that hunting is the primary form of food acquisition in the US. And even there, it's hunting AND fishing, not purely hunting.
I said A source of food, not THE source of food.
Of course it's stupid for a 9yo to have access to a gun, and especially an uzi - and no hunter needs an uzi. But you can have gun control without a gun ban.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
[In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)?
Carry IN PUBLIC. Read your own links. When's the last time you needed to open mail or slice sausages outside your own home?
Seriously? You wander the streets just itching for the chance to cut through a stray envelope?
I use a folding knife a quite lot. Last week, I freed a crow entangled in string which was twisted round a tree branch. I have repaired radiator hoses, cut cloth for impromptu bandages, removed splinters, opened packages, cut string to bind objects, etc. A knife truly is a useful tool.
You've done all these things on public property, I take it? Use on private property is irrelevant.
And what size is your knife?
I'm not arguing that a knife isn't useful. I'm mystified at the implied proposition that nothing else will do. It's not as if laws against knives are drafted WITHOUT thinking of the uses of knives, but that's why they allow ones that are either small blades or not readily concealed.
Half the things everyone is saying they use a knife for, I'm just staring at the screen and asking "have you heard of scissors?". I mean, opening packages? Do you think that the rest of us sit around our offices and homes, despairing because we can't think of a way to open a package?
[ 29. August 2014, 00:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
In short, there is nothing wrong with an appropriate knife in an appropriate place. Which is exactly what most of us are saying about guns as well - the appropriate gun in the appropriate place.
This was the appropriate place in one respect - a supervised shooting range. "In the hands of a child aged 9" was probably not the appropriate place, and an Uzi was definitely NOT the appropriate gun.
Pointing at a law that regulates which knives can be carried, and where, and claiming "THEY'VE BANNED KNIVES!" or "OMG, A JUDGE WILL HAVE TO DECIDE" is just stupid. It is simply not true that one must be able to carry any kind of knife anywhere. Nor is there something horrible about a judge making decisions. The alternative is to have a law hundreds of pages long that attempts to cover every single nuance and still fails.
Nor, of course, is it true that one must be able to carry a gun anywhere and everywhere. Shooting ranges? Yep. Hunting? Yep. CHURCH? Absolutely fricking not. And before anyone says "ah, but an armed man might burst into the church"... Yes, because you've already got a culture that says that having a weapon in church is acceptable rather than being a shockingly blasphemous act. That kind of encourages him, don't you think?
Anyway, whips are more Biblical.
A
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
[In my pocket is a pocketknife with a locking blade (safer that way, less chance of nicking my fingers), which I use all the time for such mundane tasks as opening mail and slicing sausages - and you guys in the UK make them illegal to carry "without good reason" (the interpretation of which is left solely to the police and/or the judge)?
Carry IN PUBLIC. Read your own links. When's the last time you needed to open mail or slice sausages outside your own home?
Seriously? You wander the streets just itching for the chance to cut through a stray envelope?
I use a folding knife a quite lot. Last week, I freed a crow entangled in string which was twisted round a tree branch. I have repaired radiator hoses, cut cloth for impromptu bandages, removed splinters, opened packages, cut string to bind objects, etc. A knife truly is a useful tool.
You've done all these things on public property, I take it? Use on private property is irrelevant.
And what size is your knife?
I'm not arguing that a knife isn't useful. I'm mystified at the implied proposition that nothing else will do. It's not as if laws against knives are drafted WITHOUT thinking of the uses of knives, but that's why they allow ones that are either small blades or not readily concealed.
Half the things everyone is saying they use a knife for, I'm just staring at the screen and asking "have you heard of scissors?". I mean, opening packages? Do you think that the rest of us sit around our offices and homes, despairing because we can't think of a way to open a package?
I carry a knife with me all the time, in jbohn's pocket. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Quite useful, and versatile, especially when one is out and about. I've seen him use it on public property quite a bit, too. It's a tool, nothing more.
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just across the river from me is a place where little kidz and their parents can play (under close supervision) with excavators and diggers - and you guys in the US of A let them play with machine guns?
Get a skinnier fucking brush.
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it's so, when that crazed, wildly shooting gun man comes in busting into their little church, they will be the hero who saves everyone.
Sadly, this is not unheard of. Whilst I share the concern about some who carry, and the reasons they may do so, this one is not entirely unfounded.
The subject of the bit you quote was somebody saving the day by being a gun-toting hero. What you gave evidence of is people shooting up places of worship. Do you have a case of someone stopping a shooting spree at a church with another gun? If not, then, no, this is not "not unheard of."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You've done all these things on public property, I take it?
Public and private.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And what size is your knife?
The blade is about 7cm. Folded it fits in the change pocket of my jeans.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
"have you heard of scissors?".
They do not fit in my pocket quite so well. There are scissors which will cut radiator hose, but they do not fit in my pocket.
One of the bandage incidents was a neighbor bitten in the shoulder by a large dog. Nicked an artery. I should have run gone in the house to look for scissors, he probably would not have lost too much blood.
Yes, I know most laws are thought through. You may have noticed my interaction with jbohn regarding UK knife laws.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
However it is difficult to draft a precise law which would not have unintended consequences.
Which is precisely the point - some in the US are concerned about the "unintended consequences" of further gun control...
And what exactly would those unintended consequences? And would they be any worse than the ACTUAL consequences of lax gun control?
I really hope that sooner or later, Americans decide that it's worth taking a chance on the black helicopters, because they are actually less scary than a 9-year-old girl killing an Irag & Afghanistan veteran.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
My uncle, for instance, is a perfectly decent human being, and an NRA member. No contradiction there. No, don't say there is to be a smartass. He's a good person. He pays his dues to the NRA. Yes, someone can be both. Don't demonize people because some spokesfolk say nutty things.
I genuinely thought the NRA was an organisation for batshit crazy, teabagger, lunatic right-wing, violence-worshipping, self-obsessed, whackjob hypocrites. I honestly didn't think that any, well, normal-non-awful people were in it. I'd sort of assumed there might be another gun-owning association where all the non-fuckwits who owned guns congregated.
That's actually quite interesting. It had really and genuinely never occurred to me, which might seem silly. Thank you.
Why do the normal-non-awful people in the NRA let themselves be represented by something that seems so hideously grotesquely twisted? It must be cringeworthy at best any time they see the NRA pop up in the news.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You want to talk about unintended consequences of laws? Let's start with the current interpretation of the Second Amendment transforming a seemingly reasonable rule about enabling the formation of defence militias into an individualistic right. I bet you the drafters of the Second Amendment had no idea the first half of it would be completely ignored.
Switzerland's system of military service is basically what the USA was supposed to have. Instead you have millions of armed individuals with their own self-interests and zero regard for defending their country.
[ 29. August 2014, 03:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Part of why people haven't up and left the NRA (yes, there are a few other smaller organizations, but…) is that the NRA is the standard. They certify range instructors, set the standards for targets in the States, determine the curriculum (such as it is) for concealed carry permits, have ranges and training centers throughout the country, and do a bit of genuinely non-nutty legislative action and lobbying. There are very real and compelling reasons to belong to the NRA even if you think open carry is nuts and would never dream of packing heat in a bar or a church.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Yes. Mr. Lamb went to get certified as a range safety officer (Boy Scouts) and the only way to do it was through a program that involved joining the NRA. (I'm tediously trying to explain to him why wearing the baseball cap they gave him in public would not be a good look.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
LC: ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I read the story on the BBC's web site and I laughed like a drain.
That'll be because you are full of shit.
The knife discussion - the equivalent for guns is being allowed to carry a very small pistol. Dubiously needed, but maybe acceptable.
The second amendment should be interpreted as allowing people to possess and carry weapons no more powerful or accurate than were available at the time it was drafted. Not semi-automatic machine guns.
I do, BTW, accept that there are many Americans who oppose the gun culture there. Good on you. Now get it changed.
Its like there are many men who oppose the rape culture - great, but we need to work towards changing the culture, changing those who consider rape to be acceptable.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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