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Source: (consider it) Thread: There is NOTHING right about this
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Found a group called Moms Demand Action For Gun Sense In America (MDA). Kind of like Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD). Their news page hasn't caught up with this story yet, but there's some good stuff.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Went looking to see what the crazier end of the US gun rights spectrum thought of the situation. Found Patriot Wire--and believe it or not, they have the sense to say keep guns away from kids. (Some of the front page stories there... [Eek!] )

And, worse yet, the NSFW ads at the bottom. I really hope those are just because whatever spyware they use to stalk me thinks I have the same interests and appetites as the "typical" least common denominator late 20's hetero/cis male, but that's worse than what I see on sporting websites.

Also, you made me click on patriotnews. Now I'm really scared of what Google thinks I'm interested in, or that this is going to haunt my future run for Congress more than all the socialist claptrap I've been spouting to family members while visiting.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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I can't think of any circumstances where a mother shopping with her children needs to have a gun (loaded or otherwise) in her handbag, but then I'm a Brit living in Canada, so I don't understand "gun culture" anyway.

How many similar accidents will it take for them to consider amending the regulations?

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Went looking to see what the crazier end of the US gun rights spectrum thought of the situation. Found Patriot Wire--and believe it or not, they have the sense to say keep guns away from kids. (Some of the front page stories there... [Eek!] )

And, worse yet, the NSFW ads at the bottom. I really hope those are just because whatever spyware they use to stalk me thinks I have the same interests and appetites as the "typical" least common denominator late 20's hetero/cis male, but that's worse than what I see on sporting websites.

Also, you made me click on patriotnews. Now I'm really scared of what Google thinks I'm interested in, or that this is going to haunt my future run for Congress more than all the socialist claptrap I've been spouting to family members while visiting.

I got a foreground box asking me to click 'like' if I was sick and tired of a socialist President.

These people are funny.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Hmmm. I didn't get any ads or polls. But I have lots of stuff blocked--including Google.

Sorry for any NSFW stuff. There wasn't any when I read it. The front page has links to some crazy and/or offensive stories, but that's it.

Maybe make sure you clean out your Internet cache and recent cookies??

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Went looking to see what the crazier end of the US gun rights spectrum thought of the situation. Found Patriot Wire--and believe it or not, they have the sense to say keep guns away from kids. (Some of the front page stories there... [Eek!] )

The NRA has a program called Eddie Eagle which teaches young children to stay away from guns.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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No 'program' can exist to provide for the possibility of a 2 year old firing a weapon if they find one - particularly in a culture where gun use is portrayed so casually across the spectrum.

The burning question is: WHY would a 29 year old woman feel the need to carry a concealed weapon?

This is nothing to do with any 'right', this is just stupidity. Sympathy for the situation? Yes for the child but not for any of the adults - they're old enough to know that weapons can and do kill, regardless of the intent of the holder sometimes.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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You did read the previous page of this thread? I'd put good money on her having a violent ex. Sadly, carrying a gun is the only way to have a chance against some of these people, particularly if you have children in danger with you. Because our protection system sucks (read: is basically nonexistent).

None of which excuses letting a two yo within grabbing distance of a gun, of course.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You did read the previous page of this thread? I'd put good money on her having a violent ex. Sadly, carrying a gun is the only way to have a chance against some of these people, particularly if you have children in danger with you. Because our protection system sucks (read: is basically nonexistent).

None of which excuses letting a two yo within grabbing distance of a gun, of course.

Taser ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You did read the previous page of this thread? I'd put good money on her having a violent ex.

Yes, I read the part of the previous page where you said this was total speculation.

It's very NICE of you to try to construct a narrative where this woman has an even vaguely sane reason for carrying a gun, as opposed to being just another idiot, but it of course still requires her to ignore all the facts about how much likelier a gun accident is compared to a successful intentional use against this violent ex you've dreamed up.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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It isn't nice; it's experience. We've had to help women deal with far too many violent exes showing up at work, in the grocery store, etc. There are the occasional men who have the same problem, too. And when I had a violent stalker to worry about, that was the only time in my life I ever considered carrying a weapon (though I went for a knife, having no gun skills). And yes, I had a baby to protect.

It just seems hard on the woman to be catching hell for this before all the facts are out. She's dead. Must she be automatically judged as stupid too?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
She's dead. Must she be automatically judged as stupid too?

She had a loaded handgun (with the safety off?) within reach of a two year-old. Whatever else was happening in her life, that decision was very poorly made...

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Forward the New Republic

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I'm with you and orf. Come on. We can regret her stupid, unnecessary death without just wholesale making shit up. And the phantom ex does nothing to make it less stupid and unnecessary.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Okay. whatevs.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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Reading news reports we can learn the following:

1. She was not in an abusive relationship - she and her husband of 5 years were visiting relatives for Christmas.

2. She was a graduate employed in the nuclear industry so it is probably fair to say she wasn't unintelligent.

3. There would seem to have been harmonious relations with her in-laws since they have been full of praise for her as a person and as a mother.

Which all begs the question: why was she packing a weapon?

As for the child removing a safety catch - poppycock: a child of this age, especially a male child, won't have the small motor skills required.

The region where this woman lived has the highest rate of gun ownership in the USA.

<tangent> Is it just me or is the fact that her husband (now widower) is called 'COLT' slightly chilling?

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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First, it doesn't "beg the question," fuckwits. Learn what that actually means. Google will help you.

Second, as we've had to drag out time and time again each time someone looks to start a pond war...yes, people carry concealed weapons. It's what they do. Guns are just part of life in parts of the world. It's a personal security thing. When you hear "no woman should ever be without a gun for her own protection," you carry a gun. When you don't trust the local police to arrive on time—and, even if the station is around the corner, it'll still take them longer than you taking matters into your own hands—you carry a gun. When you see the stories The Liberal Lamestream Media Doesn't Want You To Know about criminals and shootings stopped because someone had their gun, you carry one too. If you think you can defend yourself, your family, and your community against evil and deranged people, you carry a gun. When you trust yourself and your family when it comes to protecting your own life from harm more than the nameless, faceless, and disinterested state—and, really, why shouldn't you—you carry a gun.

Mistakes happen. Sometimes you forget to set the safety catch. Sometimes you deliberately leave it off, because a mass shooter isn't going to politely put down his gun to let you take it off. There is a mindset in which all these things make sense, and you don't have to be stupid, deranged, or crazy to understand it. You just have to suspend your own judgmentalism and cultural parochialism and empathize with somebody else's point of view.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520

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It seems to me that what we are seeing here is the practical outworking of a very old adage: "Familiarity breeds contempt" .

I'm thinking that, in the USA, the right to bear arms has gone beyond the level of an assumption to that of an axiom - and by that I mean something that is so common an assumption that nobody questions it any more. Axioms of this sort are mostly implanted by our parents during our up-bringing. In general, they are just the way that our family does things, which can lead to some slightly ridiculous situations later in life when you discover that something you had always thought of as "the way it is" was actually peculiar to your family. You never questioned it because why would you? It was obvious.

[Tangent] - potentially an issue for children bought up as Christians; it becomes axiomatic and thus is never questioned [/Tangent]

I'm thinking that carrying guns is axiomatic to many in the USA. It is just possible that carrying a loaded gun is axiomatic to some. The big problem is that, if it is axiomatic, it is very unlikely to be questioned.

And that I find worrying.

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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!

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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Reading news reports we can learn the following:

1. She was not in an abusive relationship - she and her husband of 5 years were visiting relatives for Christmas.

According to the Washington Post, she received the purse, which had a special zippered compartment to hold a concealed weapon, as a Christmas gift from her husband last week.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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So it seems like the "handbag" in question was a special purse designed for the concealed carry of a handgun (so the gun wasn't kicking around in the bottom of a purse with a bunch of other random objects.) It was a Christmas gift to the mother, so she wasn't familiar with it, and probably didn't have the habit of controlling its positioning that she would have developed over time - she was probably treating it as a regular purse, rather than a purse-cum-holster.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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L'Organist--

Why in the world would being married mean that she wasn't in an abusive relationship? And why would post-death compliments from her in-laws mean they really believed that?
[Ultra confused]


I have no idea what was going on in her life. But the idea that being married means not being abused is boggling.

[ 31. December 2014, 19:11: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Mistakes happen. Sometimes you forget to set the safety catch. Sometimes you deliberately leave it off, because a mass shooter isn't going to politely put down his gun to let you take it off.

IME Glocks are popular among the concealed carry crowd. They don't have an external safety.

(None of the news stories I've read have mentioned the type of gun).

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Glock? You'd think these American patriots would buy made-in-the-USA weaponry. Turncoats.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I do wonder if the crazed mass murder is going to wait for you to unzip the special compartment in your handbag to retrieve and then aim your weapon.

[ 31. December 2014, 20:54: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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QLib

Bad Example
# 43

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There is no need to locate the stupidity in the individual. It takes a whole culture to be that stupid - by which I mean gun culture, not American culture.

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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.

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Albertus
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# 13356

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This woman did something very stupid. She paid the price for it. The only mitigating thing is that it was she, rather than some random passer-by, who paid the price. Anyone who defends the practice of carrying a gun, concealed or not, on an ordinary shopping trip, absent a well-founded fear of attack andd perhaps not even then, is a fuckwit who lets their devotion to the poor drafting of some late-C18 windbags outweigh common humanity and common sense. End of.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Porridge
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# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
There is no need to locate the stupidity in the individual. It takes a whole culture to be that stupid - by which I mean gun culture, not American culture.

Nice try, and thanks for that. But this American begins to wonder if there's a difference, and where it lies.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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(NOTE: the following isn't directed at anyone from the Idaho family.)

To give you an idea of how...dedicated...some of the extreme gun rights folks are:

Several years ago, some of them were doing "open carry" of (supposedly) unloaded guns. I think there was a legal loophole, or something. Lots of TV news of people wearing guns, standing in line at Starbuck's. I think there were problems when businesses tried to ban guns on their premises. Whole thing freaked people out. The legislature banned open carry, except in certain cases.

As of April 2014, there's a push to allow open carry again. Some states do allow it. OTOH, the NRA is *against* it, and caught some flack for its stance.

To any open carry folks reading this: Get rid of the damn guns. If you won't, then build yourself another Westworld. Make it for ages 21 and over. Leave your kids with a responsible adult, one you've designated to be a long-term guardian if anything happens to you. Then take your guns and ammo (yes, you'll have loaded open carry!) and go off to Westworld. And leave the rest of us alone.
[Mad]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Sorry, left out that the open carry was here in Northern California.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520

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What I find depressing is that we seem to revisit this particular debate with monotonous regularity - individuals from more 'civilised' nations observing (in varying degrees of stridency) that, "you cannot allow this situation to continue" and being met with variations on the theme of, "you will take our guns from our cold, dead, hands" - which merely sets the scene for the next such incident.

Congratulations, United States of America. [Roll Eyes]

Sooner or later, somebody is going to have to grasp the nettle and put a stop to the sorry business. Unless, of course, you actually like incidents such as commemorated in this thread. In which case, I'm none to sure that I want you as neighbours, even at 3000 miles remove.

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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!

Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Ok, Shipmates (TTBOMK) haven't generally said that in an approving way, Darllenwr. But "from my cold, dead hands" *is* the way many *other* Americans feel about their guns.

From what I know, it's complicated. Part of it is our American mythology: manifest destiny, pioneers, Old West, rugged individualism, "my home is my castle", "get the hell off my land", anti-governmentalism, and interpretations of that pesky Second Amendment to the US Constitution. Trying to ditch that will never work. But we *might* be able to tack on "And then...".

As to gun regulation: people have tried, over and over, to get it and make it stick. But legislators have voters, and many of them are pro-gun. Plus many legislators are in the pocket of the gun lobby. And then there are all the hate groups, militias, etc.

I don't know of any way to simply remove most of our gun culture. I can think of two things that might help: 1) the NRA saying, "Enough is enough! Things have got to change NOW" and making that commitment stick; and 2) some sort of anti-gun social media campaign going viral, kind of like the bucket of water charity campaign--maybe people could turn their guns in. Except turn-in programs generally involve giving guns to the police, and with the feelings about police right now...

[Paranoid]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Why in the world would being married mean that she wasn't in an abusive relationship?

So, wait, now we want to believe that she's being stalked and needs protection on account of her... husband who gave her the purse as a present last week.

There is recognising alternative mindsets, and then there is living in complete fantasy land in a desperate attempt to maintain a proposition that was based on nothing in the first place.

There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that this woman was carrying a gun because she was in some kind of dramatic domestic situation. She was carrying a gun because in that particular part of the USA, a heck of a lot of people, including women, are okay with carrying a gun. Let it go.

[ 01. January 2015, 00:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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Sorry, orfeo; you might as well let the fantasies roll. We're just struggling to make sense of this appalling event; humans often suppose that if we can explain some godawful mess, then it becomes understandable, and therefore somehow controllable or preventable or at least squishable into some bizarre semblance of comprehensibility.

I don't live in Idaho. I don't carry a gun. I don't want to carry one. I don't want my neighbors to carry them, either, though I can't do anything to stop them. Apparently, about 1 in 3 households in the US has a gun on the premises.

I do live in a state where legislators have just decided they ought to be able to carry concealed guns on their persons during hearings and deliberations. I don't understand that any better than I understand why this woman was apparently habituated to carrying a gun in her purse. On the other hand, Idaho has also legislated -- despite opposition from all 8 college presidents -- concealed carry on public college campuses in that state (though some restrictions apply).

It just isn't comprehensible, but that rarely stops us trying to make it so.

The real tragedy here is that the Second Amendment seems to have been drafted as an effort to avoid maintaining a standing national army, and a subsequent Supreme Court decided to rule as though it were an individual right.

Or as though the NRA had the Court as well as the Congress in its pocket.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I don't understand that any better than I understand why this woman was apparently habituated to carrying a gun in her purse.

As I read it, the problem was that she wasn't habituated to carrying her gun in her purse. Before the new gun-purse, she used to carry in an underarm holster, which probably means that, although she was habituated to carrying a gun, she wasn't habituated to having the gun in her purse, which meant that she didn't keep appropriate control of it.
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I don't think we need to call a dead woman stupid to explain things, but I also sure as hell don't think we have to malign a guy who just lost his wife to explain things. Good Lord. There is zero reasonto believe he was abusive, and as Orfeo demonstrates, a hell of a lot of reason not to.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I wasn't spinning what-ifs. I was just reacting to the plain statement that we know she wasn't being abused because she was married. That's all.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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And I was also the one who pointed out that living in Idaho might be a reason. And said that if there was a father in the kids' lives, he'd need therapy along with them. I never trashed him.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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Inside story of toddler at walmart describes the situation. Both the woman and her husband were raised in the country with guns and both habitually carried them and she belonged to the NRA.
Does your fantasy explanation mean the husband also carries because he's being stalked by an abusive ex that no one is aware of?

Approximately 7% of people in Idaho have carry permits.

[ 01. January 2015, 03:14: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Palimpsest--

If that's addressed at me:

I only said, when the topic came up, that she might have carried a gun due to being in danger. I didn't specify any source. I never said it was her husband, or even an ex. Just "in danger".

And, again, my surprise was at L'organist's bald statement: "1. She was not in an abusive relationship - she and her husband of 5 years were visiting relatives for Christmas."

Kindly stop blaming me for things I didn't say.

Kthxbai.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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Golden Key

I was responding to the same post L'organist was responding to.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I wasn't spinning what-ifs. I was just reacting to the plain statement that we know she wasn't being abused because she was married. That's all.

Oh for heaven's sake, it was a statement in response to someone else's fantastical statement about an abusive ex. Would you stop ripping it out of context and acting like you're being terribly misunderstood. You're not being misunderstood, you just said something rather stupid.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I'm rewatching the West Wing (and other things) over my Christmas holidays.

Tonight I'm watching the episode 'War Crimes', which opens with the death of a young girl in a shooting in a church. A man came into the church to shoot his ex-wife, and missed. A parishioner with a legal concealed weapon returned fire, and also missed, but killed the girl.

I know it's fictional, but it's also very real. I've said it before in these conversations, but it just shits me so much that people who own guns or support gun ownership seem to live in a fantasyland where everyone aims carefully and with perfect knowledge AND only ever hits what they've aimed carefully at.

It's a basic failure of risk assessment. Just how likely IS an armed intruder or other person you genuinely need to aim a gun at? How many times in your lifetime can you expect that to happen? In most places the odds are really small.

But people who want to guard against that risk must carry a gun constantly, because they don't know when that risk might eventuate. To guard against a risk that occurs with rare frequency, they carry around a different risk - a device that can cause them serious injury - constantly.

This is precisely why you end up with stats that say only 1 firearm discharge in 23 achieves the intended result of self-defence. The opportunity for self-defence hardly ever arises, and even when it DOES arise your odds of achieving self-defence are far from perfect. But the threat of something going wrong is constant. You've put the means of a tragic accident in your home, or in your purse. Because of a fear of someone bringing a deadly weapon into your home against you, you've brought a deadly weapon into your home.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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Last summer a Roman Catholic priest was killed in Phoenix. An intruder broke in and assaulted a priest, who went to get a gun he kept "for protection." The assailant wrestled the gun away from him and shot a second priest who had come into the room. If the first priest hadn't felt a need to keep a gun in his room, his colleague would still be alive.

Then there's 9-year-old girl who accidentally shot and killed her firing range instructor with an Uzi.

It drives me crazy living in a part of the world like this (but I'm not about to move away either).

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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JoannaP
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# 4493

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quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Sooner or later, somebody is going to have to grasp the nettle and put a stop to the sorry business. Unless, of course, you actually like incidents such as commemorated in this thread. In which case, I'm none to sure that I want you as neighbours, even at 3000 miles remove.

Surely recent history has shown that enough Americans are prepared to accept the risk of incidents like this rather than accept any restriction of their 'God-given liberties'.

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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

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Porridge
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# 15405

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orfeo: [Overused]

The link to the "inside story" above shows a sadly different picture of people NOT trying to make sense. I guess that's what it takes to be a "gun culture."

quote:
Sandow told The Post she often sees people with a gun cradled at their side. “In Idaho, we don’t have to worry about a lot of crime and things like that,” she said. “And to see someone with a gun isn’t bizarre. [Veronica] wasn’t carrying a gun because she felt unsafe. She was carrying a gun because she was raised around guns. This was just a horrible accident.”
If sense is to be made of her statement, Sandow could have added, ". . . which could easily have been prevented by not carrying a gun around and by not raising children around guns."

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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orfeo

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# 13878

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I can understand being comfortable around guns because she was raised around guns. But how the hell does that translate to taking them to Walmart? That's just too damn comfortable.

Someone raised around guns can enjoy firing them on the range, or using them on hunting trips, without having to pack it with them alongside the daily basics and the kids.

[ 01. January 2015, 13:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Rationally, if you do live in jurisdictions where firearms are readily available, you have to accept that not just tragic accidents happen, but also stupid accidents when drunk or drugged, suicides and murders and suicide-by-cop and killings by cops on civilians.

This isn't to say that living in jurisdictions where they're highly restricted are free of tragic accidents or stupid accidents or suicide or murder or whatever. I have some ridiculously sharp knives in the house for cooking, and have cut myself badly using them. A burglar could pick one up and use it against me. One of my kids could pocket one and take it to school. I make the judgement that having those knives on the counter is an overall benefit, despite the risks.

The statistics regarding gun fatalities in the USA are relatively well-known (despite the NRA trying to suppress them) and widely accepted. If you think gun ownership is so important that it's worth however many thousands of extra lives it takes every year, then just come out and say so.

Almost everybody accepts that the benefits of private cars outweighs the road accident cost, but it doesn't stop car advocates legislating for better safety.

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Forward the New Republic

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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It's interesting that London currently has about 4-6 gun murders a year; however, there are more knife killings than that, (about 50).

The police, naturally enough, are claiming credit for this low figure, along the lines that they are targeting gangs who may be carrying guns, they use stop and search, restrictions on gun ownership are now very tight, and so on.

However, tracing causation with such stats is notoriously difficult; for example, it's said that crime across Europe is falling now, but nobody really knows why, (also true in the US I think).

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Because cuts in policing, so more no-criming and less investigation.

Though murders are easier to track.

[ 01. January 2015, 14:23: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
However, tracing causation with such stats is notoriously difficult; for example, it's said that crime across Europe is falling now, but nobody really knows why, (also true in the US I think).

As far as violent crime goes, I'd vote for banning tetraethyl lead, combined with increased sales of video game consoles.

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Forward the New Republic

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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It has been argued that the rise in pregnancy terminations means less children are raised in households that either don't want them or lack the ability to look after them - hence a larger proportion of children having appropriate parenting, and less anti-social behaviour as the children grow up.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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