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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Pre-cambrian, you're a liar. (Page 1)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Pre-cambrian, you're a liar.
mousethief

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From the "lost faith get paid" thread in 8th day:

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
[Y]our contributions over time on anything to do with atheism and loss of faith reveal a deep antipathy to "apostates".

(emphasis mine)

You fucking liar.

I quote from the "I'll pray for you" thread from the same board:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have often told atheist friends I'd pray for them. Not for them to return to the fold, however. But for their lumbago, their job situation, whatever. I told them this makes me feel better. This is in addition to offering to do whatever is within my power to help them.

It's never been rebuffed.

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is when someone says "I realised today that I am gay" or "I have left the church", or anything else that is seen as a positive by the poster (or commenter) to then respond with "I will pray for you" is abusive and hurtful.

I agree that it would be perceived as such, and should not be presented that way. If someone said, "I realized today that I am gay," my response would be (and has been), "well, I love you no matter what, and now as always before if there's something i can do to help you, please let me know."

For the latter, "I am an atheist now," the response is similar: "Well, I love you no matter what. If you have examined all the evidence and come to that conclusion, then that's where you are, and I will accept and love you just as I always have. I can't tell anyone to do any differently, because that's how I came to be where I am. That kind of examination may lead people in different directions, and if you're okay with that, then so am I."

Then I try to be the best friend/father/cousin/uncle/whatever to them as I can. And if anything about them needs to change, then it's out of my hands, other than to support them with love. If God exists and wants more than that, She's going to have to do it some other way because that's all I can give.

Yeah, that's sure some deep antipathy I've got going there.

You asshole. What I have a deep antipathy for is liars and people who try to drag other people's names through the mud. Be they atheist, Christian, or what-the-fuck-ever.

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Pre-cambrian
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Selective quoting?

Later on in that thread you come up with:
quote:
At some point, the minister's lack of faith becomes intolerable.
OED definitions of "intolerable":
quote:
That cannot be tolerated or put up with; unbearable, insupportable.
Yes, that sounds like antipathy.

Again your opener on another thread was:
quote:
Is this typical of you atheist deconverts, or is she just an asshole?
I.e. was she an asshole, or are all you atheists assholes? Antipathy? Not much. Maybe you'd made your opinions of atheist assholes more than clear. Perhaps that's why she acted before you could dump her.

Someone who selectively quotes their own posts is the liar, Mousethief.

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RuthW

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Nice try, but you made a blanket statement that you will now have a hard time defending, mainly because it is indefensible.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Selective quoting?

Later on in that thread you come up with:
quote:
At some point, the minister's lack of faith becomes intolerable.
OED definitions of "intolerable":
quote:
That cannot be tolerated or put up with; unbearable, insupportable.
Yes, that sounds like antipathy.

.

Did it occur to you that he meant "intolerable for the minister?" as in, "it is really painful to try to act like you have a faith you don't? Because, whether you agree with it or not, that read makes a hell of a lot more sense and fits mousethief's other posts more than the way you spun it.

[ 12. January 2015, 01:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
OED definitions of "intolerable":
quote:
That cannot be tolerated or put up with; unbearable, insupportable.
Yes, that sounds like antipathy.
Really? I suggest that you try again.

It would indeed be intolerable (insupportable, unbearable, ...) for an avowed atheist to serve as a parish priest. This doesn't imply any feelings of antipathy towards the person in question at all. The fact that he is profoundly unsuited to being a priest doesn't at all mean that anyone hates him. It just means that he's not suited to being a priest.

Similarly it would be intolerable for a university to hire Dave the Street Sweeper as Professor of Mathematics. That doesn't mean that anyone hates Dave, who no doubt is a perfectly lovely chap - just that he's not suited to be a maths professor.

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Golden Key
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I concur with Kelly's interpretation.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Oh God. Not more screwy definitions of the English language.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It would indeed be intolerable (insupportable, unbearable, ...) for an avowed atheist to serve as a parish priest. This doesn't imply any feelings of antipathy towards the person in question at all. The fact that he is profoundly unsuited to being a priest doesn't at all mean that anyone hates him. It just means that he's not suited to being a priest.

Similarly it would be intolerable for a university to hire Dave the Street Sweeper as Professor of Mathematics. That doesn't mean that anyone hates Dave, who no doubt is a perfectly lovely chap - just that he's not suited to be a maths professor.

This is actually what I meant, although I thank Kelly and GK for trying to put it in what seems to them a better light. I don't see how it shows antipathy to say someone not trained as a mathematics professor should not have the job of a maths professor. Or that someone who is not a Christian should not have the job of a minister at a Christian church.

I should not under any circumstances be a salesman. Because I suck at it. Hiring me as a salesman would be a bad idea, and were I to somehow get into a sales position and insist on staying in it under false pretense, knowing full well that I couldn't sell ice to a snow cone vendor, that would be intolerable. Dishonesty is intolerable. Lying (which is what I would be doing in that case) is intolerable. It should not be tolerated.

But that's not the issue. The issue is a blanket statement. Any time I spoke about people losing faith, Pre-Cambrian said, I have shown a deep antipathy. That's a universal statement. It is equivalent to saying I have never once said anything about people losing faith that did not show antipathy.

I have shown twice where I spoke on exactly that subject and not only did I not show antipathy, I showed compassion and love. Atheists here have acknowledged this is the case. Therefore to say I have not done so, ever, is a falsehood. Either PC is lying, or is making blanket statements without warrant. Which is hard to excuse, given that the statements I quoted are on this very board, which is all about people losing* their faith, and they were fairly recent as Ship posts go.

Maybe, PC, you didn't see them. In which case you can apologize now for misrepresenting me and for speaking beyond what you knew. If you did, of course, you were saying something you knew to be false, which is lying. Which also you should apologize for. Either way, you owe me an apology.

____
*or abandoning, or knowingly rejecting with every good reason in the world -- I don't mean to use a judgmental verb but it's late, I'm tired, and I'm angry.

[ 12. January 2015, 03:39: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Selective quoting?

Yes, you gave a good example of that. And what about MT's OP?

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ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Someone who selectively quotes their own posts is the liar, Mousethief.

It only requires one counterexample to disprove a universal. I went above and beyond the call of duty and gave you two. Yes, when someone is disproving a universal, he selectively quotes -- he quotes the counterexamples. Because that's what disproves a universal. This isn't about whether some things I have said about deconverts have shown antipathy. I definitely spoke of that one person with some antipathy because I am still angry and hurt by what she did, 20 years later. Sorry if you don't like that. Actually no I'm not. Fuck yourself if you don't like that.

But you made a universal statement which is false. You owe me an apology.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh God. Not more screwy definitions of the English language.

'Fraid so. The tenth grade debating society is back in session. Isn't this exactly what IngoB wanted with that 'Hell offshoot' board some years ago?

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Gee D
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Orfeo, Your guess and Sioni Sais's comments are spot on. Get out your can of Hellhost, and give this one a good spray while it's still small. And remember, when you're on a good thing, stick to it.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh God. Not more screwy definitions of the English language.

'Fraid so. The tenth grade debating society is back in session. Isn't this exactly what IngoB wanted with that 'Hell offshoot' board some years ago?
And exactly why it didn't happen.

Hell's teeth, this is tedious to read...

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Atheist here, chipping in with my tuppence.

mousethief has very often shown me antipathy and indeed quite hurtful viciousness, and I am 100% sure that this is (at least partly) because I am an atheist. He has taken similar approach to other atheists on these boards, and I'm sure his refutation is very much along the lines that some of his best friends are black.

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این نیز بگذرد

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Orfeo, Your guess and Sioni Sais's comments are spot on. Get out your can of Hellhost, and give this one a good spray while it's still small. And remember, when you're on a good thing, stick to it.

I must only use my powers for maintaining order and the occasional piece of shocking capriciousness to keep folk on their toes. Swatting a thread just because it makes me want to cry into my gin & tonic at the sheer pointlessness of trying to have a rational discussion with a hamster-brained man is not within my remit.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Barnabas62
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So you could have called him to Hell if he pissed you off that way, Yorick. Maybe you have in the past - I can't recall? But that's your ongoing general privilege here - and his. Which he has just exercised.

And he is, in this case, getting support from some heavy hitters. Which, given the context, is not surprising, whatever you or anyone else may think about mousethief's general posting tendencies.

I think RuthW nailed it myself. Mind you, she often does.

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Gee D
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A bit of statesmanlike, if shocking, caprice?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I can't say I've paid close attention to mousethief's attitude to atheists.

I just know what a counterexample does to an absolutist argument. Or what it's supposed to do anyway, in a logically rational universe...

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
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Yes, B62, I quite agree. But just as absolutist arguments are disproven by counterexample, his characterising himself as smelling of roses is undermined by the scent of poo-poo.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Atheist here, chipping in with my tuppence.

mousethief has very often shown me antipathy and indeed quite hurtful viciousness, and I am 100% sure that this is (at least partly) because I am an atheist. He has taken similar approach to other atheists on these boards, and I'm sure his refutation is very much along the lines that some of his best friends are black.

My God "FACEPALM" he hates me because I'm and Anglican, oh thank feck for that I thought it was because he was misanthropic.

Hold the Front page: Mousethief seems to hate everyone at some point in the day, shock horror.

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Barnabas62
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Well, Yorick, I suppose Hell is a very good place for this sort of dialogue.

"You SMELL!"

"No, YOU smell!"

"But you smell WORSE than I smell! Grrrr"

etc

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Well, I'm off to do a couple of chores and go for a swim. Don't break the thread while I'm away.

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Hold the Front page: Mousethief seems to hate everyone at some point in the day, shock horror.

I dare say there are several of us qualify for the title of Ship's Curmudgeon from time to time, Pyx_e. But I confess I've mostly avoided that thread, because when I read it I find mousethief's contributions pressing my buttons. (It's good to find that what he was saying was "intolerable" wasn't what I thought it was, but still.)

(You can tell I'm also going for the "Most wimpish Hell post of the week" award.)

(And I really must stop using so many parentheses.)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
(You can tell I'm also going for the "Most wimpish Hell post of the week" award.)

What exactly is it that you think you'll win? A gift voucher?

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
(You can tell I'm also going for the "Most wimpish Hell post of the week" award.)

What exactly is it that you think you'll win? A gift voucher?
I would have thought maybe a python. Or some mouth bling.
Wait ... That's "Most Pimpish Hell post of the week" ... Never mind.

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
(You can tell I'm also going for the "Most wimpish Hell post of the week" award.)

What exactly is it that you think you'll win? A gift voucher?
I would have thought maybe a python.
He's already got a Boa.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Atheist here, chipping in with my tuppence.

mousethief has very often shown me antipathy and indeed quite hurtful viciousness, and I am 100% sure that this is (at least partly) because I am an atheist. He has taken similar approach to other atheists on these boards, and I'm sure his refutation is very much along the lines that some of his best friends are black.

Why don't you ask me if I've stopped beating my wife yet? Roughly the same level of logic.

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Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
mousethief has very often shown me antipathy and indeed quite hurtful viciousness, and I am 100% sure that this is (at least partly) because I am an atheist.

I remember (and, from previous comments of yours, so do you) that you and mt used to get on pretty well. And that was when you were just as much an atheist as you are now, and, if anything, slightly more outspoken about it.

The reasons for him falling out with you are years old, and if he hasn't got over them by now, he should, but I'd be astonished if your atheism were one of them.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
(You can tell I'm also going for the "Most wimpish Hell post of the week" award.)

What exactly is it that you think you'll win? A gift voucher?
I would have thought maybe a python. Or some mouth bling.
Wait ... That's "Most Pimpish Hell post of the week" ... Never mind.

I have a Top Shop voucher I'll probably never use. I could offer it as some sort of prize. But the competition would be limited to UK shipmates only. [Razz]

I thought MT was an equal opportunity hater and disliked everybody! [Biased]


I read the post and agreed with Kelly’s and LC's interpretation. Being a Minister of Religion is hard enough for those who believe that God called them to be there and believe. I’d imagine that it would be almost impossible for anyone who didn’t believe in God to do it for any length of time.

OTH, that works in reverse as well. As I identify as a Christian, I could hardly set myself up as a female equiv of Richard Dawkins. [Big Grin]

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
I have a Top Shop voucher I'll probably never use. I could offer it as some sort of prize. But the competition would be limited to UK shipmates only. [Razz]

You could. On the other hand, this is Hell, not The Circus...

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Forward the New Republic

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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A female Richard Dawkins, now there is a concept the world doesn't need ...

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Atheist here, chipping in with my tuppence.

mousethief has very often shown me antipathy and indeed quite hurtful viciousness, and I am 100% sure that this is (at least partly) because I am an atheist. He has taken similar approach to other atheists on these boards, and I'm sure his refutation is very much along the lines that some of his best friends are black.

Are you sure you are an atheist as opposed to a non-theist, because I'm told they are different ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
and I am 100% sure that this is (at least partly) because I am an atheist

How could you be 100% sure?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Okay, I'm not important in this, and I'm not interested in any discussion about me or my relationship with mousethief. I brought up the issue that he has been horrid to me, and that I feel sure this is at least in part because of my atheism, because he was trying to persuade people that he's loving to atheists and even prayed for one once.

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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I'm pretty sure Yorick is mistaken (shocking, I know). Firstly, mousethief is a jerk to everybody sometimes. Secondly, Yorick is really worth being a jerk to, karmically-speaking.

Occam's Razor.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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[Killing me] Whose karma?

[ 12. January 2015, 15:28: Message edited by: Yorick ]

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
RooK

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# 1852

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Faust's.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

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# 1852

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And, let's be clear here: mousethief and I have had a long, long relationship often punctuated by gnashing of teeth. I've given him plenty of reasons to be mean to me, so it would be idiotic of me to project that onto coincidental aspects of myself (such as my religious orientation, intellectual philosophies, or my great physical beauty).

One would think that you are in a very similar situation, Yorick (aside from the beauty or intelligence). To over-simplify it as "because I'm an athiest" is lame.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Maybe you're right or whatever. Ciao for niao.

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What exactly is it that you think you'll win?

Your undying contempt of course - duh!

* Mutter mutter calls himself a Hellhost mutter mutter... *

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Maybe you're right or whatever. Ciao for niao.

Tsk, typical atheist.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What exactly is it that you think you'll win?

Your undying contempt of course - duh!

* Mutter mutter calls himself a Hellhost mutter mutter... *

You lose. I only have so much undying contempt to waste on you lot, and a few other people have already beaten you to it. Sorry, by comparison to some of the other shit that's been driving me to the Fernet lately, you're small potatoes.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It only requires one counterexample to disprove a universal. I went above and beyond the call of duty and gave you two.

Unless the person is talking about the effect of the posts in balance, and I can see nothing from pЄ that says he is talking about every post. You'll have to do better than, "Look! Two posts. Gotcha!

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Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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Yes the final quote is missing. Duh.

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Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
What exactly is it that you think you'll win?

Your undying contempt of course - duh!

* Mutter mutter calls himself a Hellhost mutter mutter... *

You lose. I only have so much undying contempt to waste on you lot, and a few other people have already beaten you to it. Sorry, by comparison to some of the other shit that's been driving me to the Fernet lately, you're small potatoes.
Yeah. As if we have that many weekly doses of undying contempt to hand out. LOL.

In 5 minutes we'll just have forgotten him again.

Ariston, did you eat all the pistachios again? We're out.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I can see nothing from pЄ that says he is talking about every post.

"Anytime" means at any time. Every single time. What is not "talking about every post" about that? I fail to see how you can see "anytime you do X, you do Y" as not being a universal. It's a poster child for a universal statement.

There is actually only one person on the ship I hold with unremitting contempt, and it's nobody on this thread.

[ 12. January 2015, 23:07: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
And, let's be clear here: mousethief and I have had a long, long relationship often punctuated by gnashing of teeth. I've given him plenty of reasons to be mean to me, so it would be idiotic of me to project that onto coincidental aspects of myself (such as my religious orientation, intellectual philosophies, or my great physical beauty).

Duh, it's your car, asshole.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Ah! Behold the envy-inducing power of my electric 5-door-hatchback!
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Bwahahahahaha!!! 21st-century Dad mobile.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Stop swooning. It's unseemly.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged



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