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Source: (consider it) Thread: Who gives a fuck?
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Let it go, man, let it go. He does a good enough job of that all on his own. We don't need another EE/Gammy blood feud, least of all with someone too good for that fuckery.

Bro, seeing as you argued jack, I rate that assessment 'bout as highly as I would spiritual counsel from Elmer Gantry. [Cool]

You ever wanna try a dance without the backing singers, bring it.

Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Whoa whoa whoa. Hold on there, big fella.

It seems to me that the entire genre of uncaring is clearly defined as an ADMIN responsibility. While I can understand you trying to demonstrate your aptitude for the job, this needs to be done subtly. Overt non-fuck-giving is clearly the bailiwick of your betters. So, in the mean time, you are relegated to not giving fucks quietly, on your own time.

[RuthW whispers snarkily from off-camera]

Oh, what? He's protesting too much...? Oh. Ah. I get it. Regretting how much he cares, because it means interfacing with some really shitty people.

Never mind.

[Rouses from stupor]

Huh? What are we talking about?

Sorry, wasn't paying enough attention to give a fuck.

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Let it go, man, let it go. He does a good enough job of that all on his own. We don't need another EE/Gammy blood feud, least of all with someone too good for that fuckery.

Bro, seeing as you argued jack, I rate that assessment 'bout as highly as I would spiritual counsel from Elmer Gantry. [Cool]

You ever wanna try a dance without the backing singers, bring it.

Jesus God, It's like Whack -a Mole with this guy. Do you have some sort of app that alerts you when the opportunity to be a douche arises?

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Bro, seeing as you argued jack, I rate that assessment 'bout as highly as I would spiritual counsel from Elmer Gantry.

My advice was "don't engage the idiots."

During the last debacle, I tried not to engage the idiot.

Your accusation is that I didn't engage the idiot.

QED...well, until just now.

--------------------
“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Let it go, man, let it go. He does a good enough job of that all on his own. We don't need another EE/Gammy blood feud, least of all with someone too good for that fuckery.

Bro, seeing as you argued jack, I rate that assessment 'bout as highly as I would spiritual counsel from Elmer Gantry. [Cool]

You ever wanna try a dance without the backing singers, bring it.

Jesus God, It's like Whack -a Mole with this guy. Do you have some sort of app that alerts you when the opportunity to be a douche arises?
Some are born douches, some achieve douchehood, and some have douchiness thrust upon 'em.

Byron seems to embrace it without shame or consciousness.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Jesus God, It's like Whack -a Mole with this guy. Do you have some sort of app that alerts you when the opportunity to be a douche arises?

Last time around, you lacked the E.I. to realize that, gee, I've taken the bulletin board roleplaying a bit far with the exploiting deaths crack, time to drop character for a sec and apologize. There's the unpleasant possibility it's not a character, but ever the optimist, I'll assume I'm speaking to an alter. As douchebaggery goes, alter, you're a frickin' sensei. I'm sure Kelly's lovely, can't help the ol' E.Q.

Ariston, nah man, you're doing this all wrong. It's "don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience." Good advice, which I'll follow in your case.

Ah, mousethief, without shame or consciousness, yes indeed, Sensei can school you on that. Clearly schooled ya good.

To add to the surreal, quite a few hereabouts argued in Purg that insults should be banned by law. Folks, you're a slice and no mistake. Walking contradictions are entertaining for a time. You all play on. You ever wanna graduate middle school, step on over to Purg, where you can't hide in the crowd, and we'll do this proper.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
To add to the surreal, quite a few hereabouts argued in Purg that insults should be banned by law.

You're adding to the surreal with that sentence. Just not in the way that you think.

But hey, I'm going to just sit back and enjoy it. Because I simply don't have enough gallons of 'Eau de Nuance' to stop making you smell bad.

[ 22. January 2015, 05:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:

To add to the surreal, quite a few hereabouts argued in Purg that insults should be banned by law. Folks, you're a slice and no mistake. Walking contradictions are entertaining for a time. You all play on. You ever wanna graduate middle school, step on over to Purg, where you can't hide in the crowd, and we'll do this proper.

No one has ever done anything properly because getting a grip on you is like grappling with a pig in shit. How can you debate with someone who changes their position? It's bloody tiring and results in Shipmates using the scattergun approach rather than a rapier.

No. Hold the scattergun. Bring on the clusterbomb.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Jesus God, It's like Whack -a Mole with this guy. Do you have some sort of app that alerts you when the opportunity to be a douche arises?

Last time around, you lacked the E.I. to realize that, gee, I've taken the bulletin board roleplaying a bit far with the exploiting deaths crack, time to drop character for a sec and apologize. There's the unpleasant possibility it's not a character, but ever the optimist, I'll assume I'm speaking to an alter. As douchebaggery goes, alter, you're a frickin' sensei. I'm sure Kelly's lovely, can't help the ol' E.Q.


I'm genuinelly interested to know if anyone could translate this into meaningful English?

--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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It roughly translates as "you can't really dislike me that much, so I'm going to assume it's all roleplay".
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Jesus God, It's like Whack -a Mole with this guy. Do you have some sort of app that alerts you when the opportunity to be a douche arises?

Last time around, you lacked the E.I. to realize that, gee, I've taken the bulletin board roleplaying a bit far with the exploiting deaths crack, time to drop character for a sec and apologize.
Oh, look at you - still trying to wriggle out of your embarrassing attempt to align your poor self with victims of a massacre and cast your opponents in the role of bloody jihadist murderers! And all because you had been criticized for your ludicrous posing as a free-speech absolutist on the basis of your stupid insistence that "speech = opinion".

That thread has been dormant for less than 10 days - do you really think everybody's forgotten what really happened? You'd be better off with the Krieger maneuver.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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It's your fault, Dave, for giving a fuck. [Disappointed] [Disappointed] [Disappointed]
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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I'll have to work on my ennui.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Only if you can be bothered.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I'll have to work on my ennui.

Oh my God. A theme song!

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
No. Hold the scattergun. Bring on the clusterbomb.

This thread is a clusterfuck. Is that close enough?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
[Jesus God, It's like Whack -a Mole with this guy.

I prefer guacamole.

--------------------
http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Must. Not. Care. About. Pathetic. Puns. Must. Not. Explode. At. Stupidity. Of. It. All.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Must. Not. Care. About. Pathetic. Puns. Must. Not. Explode. At. Stupidity. Of. It. All.

He gives a fuck! He gives a fuck!

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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No I don't! No I don't! Fuck. Fuck.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
No. Hold the scattergun. Bring on the clusterbomb.

This thread is a clusterfuck. Is that close enough?
This thread is a clusterfuck, but the weapon of choice is a clusterbomb.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
No I don't! No I don't! Fuck. Fuck.

There! You just gave two!

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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That wasn't a gift. You'll pay for it later.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I'm genuinelly interested to know if anyone could translate this into meaningful English?

Remedial English class, presumably, sure plenty hereabouts can give ya directions.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It roughly translates as "you can't really dislike me that much, so I'm going to assume it's all roleplay".

Less you spend your weekends fending off Rosko while held on disorderly conduct charges, you're roleplaying. Disturbingly, you seem to be unaware of that fact. He wears a mask, and his face grows to fit it.
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
No one has ever done anything properly because getting a grip on you is like grappling with a pig in shit. How can you debate with someone who changes their position? It's bloody tiring and results in Shipmates using the scattergun approach rather than a rapier.

No. Hold the scattergun. Bring on the clusterbomb.

Make your mind up already: first I'm stubborn beyond reason for not shifting position 'cause a weenie cybermob told me to; now I keep changing my position. Which is it?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Oh, look at you - still trying to wriggle out of your embarrassing attempt to align your poor self with victims of a massacre and cast your opponents in the role of bloody jihadist murderers! And all because you had been criticized for your ludicrous posing as a free-speech absolutist on the basis of your stupid insistence that "speech = opinion".

Here's some reading for you, courtesy of the famous 1980s flag burning case: "The act [my italics] for which appellant was convicted was clearly 'speech' contemplated by the First Amendment."

So "speech" can be the act of torching Ol' Glory, with no words uttered whatsoever. Therefore "speech" isn't taken literally by the courts, but as shorthand for the expression of opinion, which, well gee golly, is exactly what I said. This is why I don't like mobs, however defanged.

Sheeeeit, that's a lot of imps who owe me a grovelling retraction. It's OK, I know how fragile imps are, I'll waive it.
quote:
That thread has been dormant for less than 10 days - do you really think everybody's forgotten what really happened? You'd be better off with the Krieger maneuver.
And you also, it seems, need to get your ass to that reading class: as I said, very clear, on the last thread, "I can guarantee I'm not remotely 'brave' to discuss this ... on a bulletin board. What a bizarre notion. We're just talking here. Bravery is the staff of Charlie Hebdo, heroes, all."

I did highlighted the irony of trying to get your way by intimidation when discussing this. As I must eliminate any expectations of comprehension and nuance with your hellish alter (for realz, you chose this obtuse bozo to roleplay?), I highlighted it not to compare myself with the Charlie staff, or to compare your hellboy to the gunmen, but to say the opposite, that you're better than that.

Of course, I didn't clock that your Hyde isn't better than that. Good thing its quarantined on a bulletin board!

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Just to be completely clear: I haven't read Byron's post. And I'm probably not going to, because I'm not some poor, masochistic Hellhost.

But I'm willing to bet he's just found some free time to dedicate to having another Hell thread be All. About. Him.

And, well, after I saw he had posted here, I thought I'd just saunter in and announce: BEHOLD! The utterly pointless shit-spouter hast return-ed! Soon may he drown on his own effluence.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
So "speech" can be the act of torching Ol' Glory, with no words uttered whatsoever. Therefore "speech" isn't taken literally by the courts, but as shorthand for the expression of opinion, which, well gee golly, is exactly what I said.

Your ability to pair together two sentences where sentence B doesn't remotely follow from sentence A remains one of your most distinctive and charming features.

I think it was in Purg where about 5 of us lined up to tell you that one sentence didn't follow from another, and your response was simply to say "of course it does" and that was that. Which is proof that ducks have blue feet.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Just to be completely clear: I haven't read Byron's post. And I'm probably not going to, because I'm not some poor, masochistic Hellhost.

But I'm willing to bet he's just found some free time to dedicate to having another Hell thread be All. About. Him.

And, well, after I saw he had posted here, I thought I'd just saunter in and announce: BEHOLD! The utterly pointless shit-spouter hast return-ed! Soon may he drown on his own effluence.

You imps all chose to make the previous thread All. About. Me. by falling over yourselves to tell me I was wrong in a spectrum of colorful metaphors. Orfeo proceeded to make this one All. About. Me. by, touchingly, making me subject to some "quest" (roleplay extends to channeling Peter Jackson, creative, in a fanboyish way). As it's Orfeo's thread, his call to make.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Your ability to pair together two sentences where sentence B doesn't remotely follow from sentence A remains one of your most distinctive and charming features.

I think it was in Purg where about 5 of us lined up to tell you that one sentence didn't follow from another, and your response was simply to say "of course it does" and that was that. Which is proof that ducks have blue feet.

Yeah, thing is, it's show, not tell. You sure told, but the curtain never rose on the show. Then you left, which, I'm sure, had nothing to do with my shredding your idiosyncratic take on proximate cause (we should ban insults that might, someplace, sometime, somehow, lead to violence ... but oh, leave my hellish alter ego free to sound off on a bulletin board).

Now we get a replay. Not to worry, like I said, I'll waive the retraction.

Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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People explained it just fine.

How else are people supposed to show on a message board, except by setting out reasons?

And you have absolutely no idea what my position on proximate cause is. Seriously.

Nor, it seems, do you have the slightest clue as to when I'm playing a role and when I'm not. You haven't been around here long enough to figure it out before crashing into things. You think everything's a role play. It's not.

Then, after I got sufficiently cranky, you got all remorseful for all of 5 seconds, before starting on the same 'game' again.

Not interested in 'playing' a 4th, 5th, 6th time, thanks all the same, because there's no sign whatsoever that this game is educational, and I already know it isn't fun. I might consider persevering if I thought there was any chance of learning something, but there's not. You are a closed mind. There's no possibility here of a genuine exchange of ideas, because your interest is in thinking you've scored points. You think that's the sole purpose of Hell, and frankly your behaviour in Purgatory wasn't much different. You just changed it to trying to score points with a veneer of politeness.

[ 27. January 2015, 22:55: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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Byron,

I already know that evil exists in the world.

You can stop trying to convince me that sometimes people are evil little shits.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Oh, look at you - still trying to wriggle out of your embarrassing attempt to align your poor self with victims of a massacre and cast your opponents in the role of bloody jihadist murderers! And all because you had been criticized for your ludicrous posing as a free-speech absolutist on the basis of your stupid insistence that "speech = opinion".

Here's some reading for you, courtesy of the famous 1980s flag burning case: "The act [my italics] for which appellant was convicted was clearly 'speech' contemplated by the First Amendment."

So "speech" can be the act of torching Ol' Glory, with no words uttered whatsoever. Therefore "speech" isn't taken literally by the courts, but as shorthand for the expression of opinion, which, well gee golly, is exactly what I said.

You know, I’m beginning to think you really don’t know what the word “therefore” means. That just says some expressive acts may be covered under freedom of speech, not that speech is opinion, or that all speech is protected. You originally said
quote:
None of those things [harassment, incitement and defamation] are speech. Speech is the expression of opinion: harassment, incitement, and defamation are acts, either criminal or tortious.
And this is just foolish – those things are speech, both in common usage and in legal usage, as amply illustrated by this Congressional Research Service Report. They simply happen to be classes of restricted speech.
quote:
quote:
That thread has been dormant for less than 10 days - do you really think everybody's forgotten what really happened? You'd be better off with the Krieger maneuver.
And you also, it seems, need to get your ass to that reading class: as I said, very clear, on the last thread, "I can guarantee I'm not remotely 'brave' to discuss this ... on a bulletin board. What a bizarre notion. We're just talking here. Bravery is the staff of Charlie Hebdo, heroes, all."

You said “If we've should learn anything from Paris, it's that disagreement should be settled by reason, not intimidation. Trying to "win" by shouting me down sucks.” Paris didn’t teach us anything about arguing on a bulletin board; and you’re still contemptible for suggesting your treatment here has even the remotest similarity.

(And anyway, are we “just talking here”, or are you being “intimidated”? Make up your mind.)

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Last time around, you lacked the E.I. to realize that, gee, I've taken the bulletin board roleplaying a bit far with the exploiting deaths crack, time to drop character for a sec and apologize. There's the unpleasant possibility it's not a character, but ever the optimist, I'll assume I'm speaking to an alter. As douchebaggery goes, alter, you're a frickin' sensei. I'm sure Kelly's lovely, can't help the ol' E.Q.


I'm genuinelly interested to know if anyone could translate this into meaningful English?
I think it's an acknowledgement that he has created a persona for the, um, benefit of the Ship.

Which is a relief in a way. I actually think Byron has some intelligent and well-reasoned ideas but he insists on dressing them up in this weird faux-folksy 'sheesh y'all that's whack' idiolect, so that you feel you have to learn a special code just to talk to him. It would be horrible to think he spoke like that in real life too.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Actually, I think Byron's criticizing the person who said he was exploiting the Charlie Hebdo deaths. He protested it, at the time.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
You know, I’m beginning to think you really don’t know what the word “therefore” means. That just says some expressive acts may be covered under freedom of speech, not that speech is opinion, or that all speech is protected.

Indeed, the reasoning process can be boiled down to this:

1. Speech has been extended to include other expressive acts.

2. Therefore speech means anything that expresses an opinion.

This is a complete fallacy of course. If the second statement was "speech includes anything that expresses an opinion" he'd probably be right, but he's done this bizarre move where the expansion of speech to include something additional has somehow led to the contraction of the concept somewhere else.

Mind you, I've dealt with a similarly odd reasoning process of a client this very day, where they've somehow thought that "X (including Y)" manages to exclude most non-Y things.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Actually, I think Byron's criticizing the person who said he was exploiting the Charlie Hebdo deaths. He protested it, at the time.

Well, I at least am one of the persons who said something to this effect. Speaking only for myself:


I said he was using the situation to play rhetorical games, and I was not "roleplaying" when I said it. It disgusted me to see orfeo and Dave W spend paragraph after paragraph giving his comments serious (if very angry) consideration, only to get giggly nose-thumbing and goalpost shifting in response. He flat out said a number of times he was relishing that he was winding them up. I am not apologizing for opining on that-- for saying mean things about someone in Hell? really? Where is the "everyone except Kelly" clause in C4?-- and in fact, I will say again that Byron seems much more interested in scoring points than any social issue we might be discussing.

I fully support orfeo's current decision to take a break from giving a fuck, because ordinarily he gives an abundance. The idea that someone would take that kind of passion and turn it into the puck in some rhetorical game of air hockey turns my stomach.

As for Dave, he usually doesn't bother saying anything unless he is right, so anyone who resists the kind of common sense he dishes out is bound to not impress me.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Also, this:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

Which is a relief in a way. I actually think Byron has some intelligent and well-reasoned ideas but he insists on dressing them up in this weird faux-folksy 'sheesh y'all that's whack' idiolect, so that you feel you have to learn a special code just to talk to him. It would be horrible to think he spoke like that in real life too.

Very much this.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I will say again that Byron seems much more interested in scoring points than any social issue we might be discussing.

Or avoiding anything that might be construed as backing down or admitting any value in anyone else's discussion. It makes a mockery of a discussion if one party refuses any possibility of hearing anything convincing or valuable, particularly if the only way they can maintain that appearance is by claiming not to have said what they obviously did say, or pretending to be able to answer a point with a non sequitur just for the sake of it.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:


As for Dave, he usually doesn't bother saying anything unless he is right, so anyone who resists the kind of common sense he dishes out is bound to not impress me.

Oh, these pesky people with their BS detectors. They spoil everybody's fun.

[ 29. January 2015, 20:23: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Byron
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# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[...] Nor, it seems, do you have the slightest clue as to when I'm playing a role and when I'm not. You haven't been around here long enough to figure it out before crashing into things. You think everything's a role play. It's not. [...]

So ya do spend your weekends dodging Rosko!

Simple fact is, if you spoke to people face-to-face as you speak to them here, sooner rather than later, you'd be hooked up for disorderly conduct, decked, or most likely both. Unless you're claiming that happens (or that you're just so badass no one dare touch ya: please be claiming that!), you're roleplaying, safe behind a cloak of anonymity, and better yet, in a forum you mod.

The apology was genuine: you never accepted it, but in any case, the thread was mostly directed at the rest of the cybermob. You must be the first lawyer ever who objects to "scoring points," or, as it's also known, adversarial debate. I doubt many attorneys think that arguments from authority are legit, either.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
You know, I’m beginning to think you really don’t know what the word “therefore” means. That just says some expressive acts may be covered under freedom of speech, not that speech is opinion, or that all speech is protected. [...]

If you've read the court's opinion, you'll note it's packed with references to "symbolic speech," expressive conduct, and so on. What should that tell you? That "speech" is used figuratively, and used to refer to the expression of ideas, or "opinion" as it's also known.

The crimes you list do involve speech in the sense of "use of the human voice," yes, and also overt criminal acts. I never denied this. I accepted "speech" as legit shorthand for "speech + act," gave multiple examples of the alternative, "speech = opinion," and made a case for why that alternative is more appropriate when discussing free speech.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
[...] It would be horrible to think he spoke like that in real life too.

Rather less horrible than the punk speech affected by other hellions! Unless you're all bangers on the Q.T., you're experts at creating online personae. If you are all bangers on the Q.T., all I can say is, net access in jails has really come along.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
[...] I said he was using the situation to play rhetorical games, and I was not "roleplaying" when I said it. It disgusted me to see orfeo and Dave W spend paragraph after paragraph giving his comments serious (if very angry) consideration, only to get giggly nose-thumbing and goalpost shifting in response.

Not the case, my position stayed the same throughout.
quote:
He flat out said a number of times he was relishing that he was winding them up. I am not apologizing for opining on that-- for saying mean things about someone in Hell? really? Where is the "everyone except Kelly" clause in C4?-- and in fact, I will say again that Byron seems much more interested in scoring points than any social issue we might be discussing.
The windup was on a completely different thread, where a bunch of ya wanted to send a young man to prison on some nothing pot charge, 'cause, and this is just weird, ya didn't like a judge mentioning his school. I confess, I could've gotten pissed instead, which would've been more appropriate. I still like to think that most didn't actually want the kid locked up.

So you're another who goes round calling folk sick fucks to their face? The weekend pens must be swelling!
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Or avoiding anything that might be construed as backing down or admitting any value in anyone else's discussion. It makes a mockery of a discussion if one party refuses any possibility of hearing anything convincing or valuable, particularly if the only way they can maintain that appearance is by claiming not to have said what they obviously did say, or pretending to be able to answer a point with a non sequitur just for the sake of it.

Oh, you mean like I just did in a Dead Horse thread on equal marriage? Or the Ferguson thread? Or ... oh, enough, you couldn't be that incompetent, so I know you're just funnin'.

[ 29. January 2015, 22:04: Message edited by: Byron ]

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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Hello. Me again.

And, again, I have not read Byron's post. However, I can't help but suspect that he feels¹ worthy of returning largely because people actually attempt to talk to him. I suggest you stop, as it is clearly not worth the annoyance.

He is a foetid slug of bullshit tightly packed into a fragile skin of assertion used to swing-and-miss at all comers while mostly just stinking up the place.

¹ incorrectly

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Yep, back to ignoring him. I was only really worried about what GK thought, because she is worth my time.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
You must be the first lawyer ever who objects to "scoring points," or, as it's also known, adversarial debate.

Never worked in an adversarial position in my life. First ever? Hardly. "Lawyers" are not confined to the folks who stand up in court arguing.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
You know, I’m beginning to think you really don’t know what the word “therefore” means. That just says some expressive acts may be covered under freedom of speech, not that speech is opinion, or that all speech is protected. [...]

If you've read the court's opinion, you'll note it's packed with references to "symbolic speech," expressive conduct, and so on. What should that tell you? That "speech" is used figuratively, and used to refer to the expression of ideas, or "opinion" as it's also known.
You said speech and opinion were equal by definition; you can't prove this by just finding examples where speech includes opinion, you have to show that it excludes everything else.
quote:
The crimes you list do involve speech in the sense of "use of the human voice," yes, and also overt criminal acts. I never denied this.

Actually (a) you did deny they were speech, and (b) you have yet to explain what "overt criminal act" is involved in defamatory speech, apart from the speech itself. You can't say "that shouldn't count as speech because it involves a criminal act", when the only reason it does is because we decided to criminalize that category of speech.
quote:
I accepted "speech" as legit shorthand for "speech + act," gave multiple examples of the alternative, "speech = opinion," and made a case for why that alternative is more appropriate when discussing free speech.

"Appropriate"? Hardly. Though I'll admit it is convenient for people who want to pose as free speech absolutists by simply saying all the speech we've criminalized isn't really speech ... because it's criminal.

You can feel free adopt whatever private wacky alternative usages you want, but don't pretend that other people should recognize them as definitions.

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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315

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I find it odd how people think that posters on a message board are acting. I would think that people in the face-to-face world is where the acting would be more likely to take place.

ETA: My new years resolution is to attempt to give a fuck.

[ 30. January 2015, 02:18: Message edited by: rugasaw ]

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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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So how's that going?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Never worked in an adversarial position in my life. First ever? Hardly. "Lawyers" are not confined to the folks who stand up in court arguing.

Of course they're not, but you spoke (very) confidently on how trials are conducted. You did, presumably, spend a lota time in moot court at law school, and observe hearings, trials, etc.

The OP's making a lot more sense now. Debate's not about scoring points, least, isn't for me, it's about testing a position. I like it when an opponent offers a fresh challenge.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
You said speech and opinion were equal by definition; you can't prove this by just finding examples where speech includes opinion, you have to show that it excludes everything else.

In this particular context, yes, I did. I also said, to sooth the collective apoplexy, that the definition mattered less than the difference in kind between censoring opinions, and censoring speech used in a criminal/tortious act. I explained the example you gave in the thread: defamation is the act of telling credible lies about a person in order to destroy their reputation. It's not just "speech" that's made liable, it's the intent, and the act of publication to a third party.

If you want to reject this, despite clear precedent, that's your call, one I can handle just fine without howling to the moon.
quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
I find it odd how people think that posters on a message board are acting. I would think that people in the face-to-face world is where the acting would be more likely to take place. [...]

Sure, but tough talking down a modem is even more phony. It gives the thrill of a physical confrontation with none of the risk, like getting vicarious kicks from war movies and superhero comics.

I'm sure our two admins are great folk outside the hellpit, and we'd shoot the breeze just fine. Or they're street fighters, in which case, I'd have to chuckle and walk away.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Never worked in an adversarial position in my life. First ever? Hardly. "Lawyers" are not confined to the folks who stand up in court arguing.

Of course they're not, but you spoke (very) confidently on how trials are conducted. You did, presumably, spend a lota time in moot court at law school, and observe hearings, trials, etc.
Indeed. I've worked in a tribunal - just not in an adversarial position - and I got a round of applause from a full lecture theatre when I had to perform a cross-examination.

So I know how an adversarial system works. None of which means I think an adversarial system makes sense if one's goal is to find out what is true, rather than if one's goal is to 'win'.

quote:
Debate's not about scoring points, least, isn't for me, it's about testing a position.
If only your behaviour, involving as it does a steely-eyed determination to hold onto a completely idiosyncratic position in the face of all offered evidence to the contrary (even evidence you yourself offered in the form of a New York Times article), didn't completely disprove this statement. If one is to truly test a position, one must be open to the possibility that the position is wrong. I'm not sure I've yet seen any conversation on the Ship where you're prepared for such a possibility.

quote:
I like it when an opponent offers a fresh challenge.
The very notion of opponents and challenges is not consistent with your claimed position on debate. I think I'm perfectly entitled to suggest that you are attempting to score points, because when you use language like this, it's pretty much like a sporting contest. I'm sure Roger Federer has said something similar in a press interview.

[ 30. January 2015, 06:57: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I fully support orfeo's current decision to take a break from giving a fuck, because ordinarily he gives an abundance. The idea that someone would take that kind of passion and turn it into the puck in some rhetorical game of air hockey turns my stomach.

I'd like to take a moment to return to this and say this is one of the most wonderful, meaningful things that I can remember anyone saying in relation to me in a long while.

Unfortunately, it is also an affirmation of my innate inclination to give a heck of a fuck, but I shall continue to fight against that inclination for the sake of my own sanity. I made the mistake of giving an enormous fuck on Facebook this afternoon, so it's just possible that right now I have no more fucks to give.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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What you need, orfeo, is to skim rapidly over Byron's posts - in a fuckless zip.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

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# 13878

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Hmmm. Sounds like a good idea in theory, but there's still the risk that I'll get caught on something.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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It's nicer advice than my own inclination to suggest disemvowelling.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged



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