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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The annual fake Seder
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
You seemed to have moved it to a far off land. Does it matter if they are visiting and do it in a building made to look like a church and tell people it's a church service?
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I wouldn't go again. My main objection is supercessionism, the idea that Christianity replaces Judaism.
Since I'm not sure that it's a false doctrine (depending on how it's approached), but I really think it's worthy of discussion in a non-Hellish way, I've started a thread on supersessionism in Purgatory. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
You seemed to have moved it to a far off land. Does it matter if they are visiting and do it in a building made to look like a church and tell people it's a church service?
Since I was writing about your suggestion of "a group of tourists from a non-Christian land," then, well, yeah, it would be a far-off land, at least in the US or Europe. (Er, if by "non-Christian" you mean "historically not a country which has Christianity as its dominant religion." In the US we have separation of church and state, for example, but it's not like Christianity is unknown here.)
If they're visiting, and they do it in a building made to look like a church, sure, why not?
If they tell people it's a church service--I suppose it would depend on how they phrased it. (At what point would it cross over from being a pretend church service to a real one? Only God knows, I suppose.) As long as they're being honest about it with everyone, then while I may not agree with their theology or whatnot, I'm not offended. Why should I be?
[ 28. March 2015, 00:09: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I went to a couple of Seders in the 1980s held with the premise as stated above - to do what the gang did at the last supper.
I wouldn't go again. My main objection is supercessionism, the idea that Christianity replaces Judaism.
Certainly that's unacceptable, as is bait-and-switch evangelism. (Although folks who think getting Jews to come to a lamely austere pseudo-seder will be an effective evangelism tool is more pathetic than outrageous).
But I think we've seen here some examples that suggest, at least to me, that it's possible to do a Passover learning experience that avoids both those dangers.
I'm of the opinion that the use of the word "Seder" makes it unacceptable. I could accept perhaps "Last Supper Reenactment". Best if everyone dressed in period costume, like the passé fad for medieval feasts. Otherwise every bit as bad as Germans dressing as North American Indians and their inappropriate Indian clubs.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I dunno.
Leaving aside arguments about its historicity, Passover celebrates the liberation of a people from slavery. It commemorates the dangers, hardships, losses, privations, & sacrifice of bondage & escape, and the ultimate freedom attained. The celebration, AIUI, is central to Jewish identity; most of my Jewish friends are cheerfully atheist, yet they rarely fail to gather with friends and family to observe not only the seder but (in some cases) also the dietary regimen attending the rest of Passover. Granted, a week of packing lunches to work that consist of oranges, hard-boiled eggs & matzo may not seem all that difficult, but it's done.
Of course, the Christian story parallels Passover in many ways: being set free from the bondage of sin, with its dangers, hardships, and the central sacrifice; the Easter story, likewise, provides the core of Christian religious identity; the ritual meals differ, but echo each other, and so on.
It seems to me that the worth of the "Christian seder" hinges on intention and audience.
If the seder is meant to teach Christians about the older religion's customs, ask the local synagogue if some families would be willing to invite individuals from the church congregation to their seders.
If the seder is meant as a gesture of "What We Have In Common," do something different and at a different time. One main point of Passover is the "passing over" -- the exclusive nature of a people who have regarded themselves from time immemorial as set aside, separate, "chosen." What could be more arrogantly irritating than having your Christian neighbors horn in on your central set-apartness rituals?
If the seder is meant as a hat-tip to the ethnicity of Jesus, how does this square with "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, etc."?
If the seder is meant as a re-enactment of the Last Supper (and there's not much NT description to go on here), why not just have the eucharist Christians normally carry out? Isn't that what the eucharist is? Why dress Christian rituals in Jewish prayer-shawl & kippa? While there will be some who fall between stools, as religionists, Christians generally aren't Jews; Jews generally aren't Christians; Christianity holds itself to be inclusive (and proselytizes in aid of inclusivity); Judaism holds itself to be exclusive, and avoids active proselytization in aid of that exclusivity.
Seems to me that respect here requires acknowledging and leaving room for that sense of set-apartness, and the Passover seder as a ritual is a central to that identity. Just sayin'.
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Moon: Including what?
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
Understanding the roots of many Christian practices and theology in the faith and history of Israel does no harm …
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder, Infant Baptism corresponds to Circumcision …
Confirmation - Bar/Bat Mitzvah …
Sabbath - Sunday
Synagogue/Temple - Congregation/Sanctuary
Sacred Texts - Canon
etc. ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I'm one of those Jewish atheists who still goes to an occasional Seder and there are both universal and specific lessons. The customs of the dinner ritual are designed to maintain the memory. However the actual rituals in use today are probably after the split between modern Jewish religion and Christianity. Origins of the Seder and are in fact a lot like Greco-Roman dining. Certainly it's been a few millennia since Christians observed the Seder and not the last Supper. To appropriate it on the grounds that you're family and you can take anything your older brother has is not likely to make your brothers happy.
That said, participating in a Jewish Seder or studying the holiday rather than re-enacting it can be a good thing. To me there are two powerful things in this origin story. "We were slaves in the land of Egypt and God led us to Freedom" is important for many reasons; to remember the value of Freedom, to respect others who are still enslaved and to help them and to remember the specialness of the people.
The second lesson is easy to lose. What were the Jews doing in Egypt. If you believe the Torah, they went to Egypt during years of Famine and gradually became enslaved. There needs to be both gratitude that there was help in avoiding starvation and vigilance about the souring of the relationship into enslavement. If you just look at the archaeology and not the bible, you learn that there were major Jewish settlements in Egypt as well as other areas, even if you think that the Israelites evolved in Canaan, became dispersed and eventually came to control Israel. The story is more complicated than fleeing evil and it still needs to be figured out.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder,
Thank you, Teilhard, for stating the underpinnings of this odious practice so clearly.
It is just as clear that it is false.
To say that the supper was a Seder is an anachronism, even a re-working of one. We have Rabbinic evidence for Seders only to, what?, the third or second century. Weirdly, the gospel accounts are the best evidence of the 1st century passover meal and these are astonishingly threadbare, having only the two cups, the blessing, and the bread. And, these accounts, except for Mark, written after the fall of the temple refer to, not Seders, but the day of unleavened bread—examine the text.
The other correspondences you hoist up were very popular in the early part of the last century, when we were still confusedly doing anthropology with the rough tools of biblical exegesis aided by the emerging 19th century historical method.
The supper was not a eucharist. The supper was not a seder.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder,
Thank you, Teilhard, for stating the underpinnings of this odious practice so clearly.
It is just as clear that it is false.
To say that the supper was a Seder is an anachronism, even a re-working of one. We have Rabbinic evidence for Seders only to, what?, the third or second century. Weirdly, the gospel accounts are the best evidence of the 1st century passover meal and these are astonishingly threadbare, having only the two cups, the blessing, and the bread. And, these accounts, except for Mark, written after the fall of the temple refer to, not Seders, but the day of unleavened bread—examine the text.
The other correspondences you hoist up were very popular in the early part of the last century, when we were still confusedly doing anthropology with the rough tools of biblical exegesis aided by the emerging 19th century historical method.
The supper was not a eucharist. The supper was not a seder.
The "Last Supper" certainly was not a "modern" Seder … But it was a Passover Meal, and the canonical Gospels' accounts of it -- from the late First Century C.E. -- say so …
That is a different question than 20th-21st Century Christians trying to stage a fake "Seder" for educational purposes ...
[ 28. March 2015, 23:24: Message edited by: Teilhard ]
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The supper was not a eucharist.
Actually, the Supper was the first Eucharist.
Thank you, ChastMastr, I let my rhetoric take me a step too far. The supper was the stock from which the eucharist grew and developed and, in that sense, is the first eucharist.
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder,
Thank you, Teilhard, for stating the underpinnings of this odious practice so clearly.
…
The "Last Supper" certainly was not a "modern" Seder …
Thank you, again, Teilhard, for another clear statement—this one true—that demonstrates against the odious practice. The graft of a Seder from any generation onto a Christian educational experience is an odious one and is a graft that will not take.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The supper was not a eucharist.
Actually, the Supper was the first Eucharist.
Thank you, ChastMastr, I let my rhetoric take me a step too far. The supper was the stock from which the eucharist grew and developed and, in that sense, is the first eucharist.
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Not only is the Eucharist a re-working of the Passover Seder,
Thank you, Teilhard, for stating the underpinnings of this odious practice so clearly.
…
The "Last Supper" certainly was not a "modern" Seder …
Thank you, again, Teilhard, for another clear statement—this one true—that demonstrates against the odious practice. The graft of a Seder from any generation onto a Christian educational experience is an odious one and is a graft that will not take.
I don't see it as "odious," but merely naive …
A sincere attempt to understand origins and meanings may not be 100% reliable … but "odious" it is not ...
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
This is all a bit precious isn't it? It's not like anybody's eating a roast pork sandwich in a synagogue. If a group of Christians want to have a meal together that they believe emulates one that Jesus shared with his disciples, there is no offence meant to Jewish people and no chance for sacrilege-what's the harm? Judaism is resilient enough not to crumble when a few Christians borrow from their traditions.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
This is all a bit precious isn't it? It's not like anybody's eating a roast pork sandwich in a synagogue. If a group of Christians want to have a meal together that they believe emulates one that Jesus shared with his disciples, there is no offence meant to Jewish people and no chance for sacrilege-what's the harm? Judaism is resilient enough not to crumble when a few Christians borrow from their traditions.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Yeah, I also have a hard time taking this "odious" stuff seriously when the people most promoting it near me are Jews fully signed up on their Jewish heritage. A whole Jewish congregation, no less! I'm not about to march over there and tell them what they're doing is somehow culturally odious.
[ 29. March 2015, 12:14: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yeah, I also have a hard time taking this "odious" stuff seriously when the people most promoting it near me are Jews fully signed up on their Jewish heritage. A whole Jewish congregation, no less! I'm not about to march over there and tell them what they're doing is somehow culturally odious.
There's a substantial difference.
The neighbors are free to invite you to their barbecue. They might not feel the same way about your barbecue which you've set up in your own back yard and copied, word-for-word & gesture-for-gesture, the one they're holding for themselves.
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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that some schools in Britain do re-enactments of Christian festivals from time to time under the banner of RE (usually following CofE or RC practice and forgetting us Nonconformists ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ). They certainly do weddings: just to be different, here's a CofE school doing a Muslim one.
And why not, if these are teaching experiences? There's no pretence involved, but they should be accurate. Of course, what you cannot reproduce is the thinking with which members of faith communities approach their festivals.
[ 29. March 2015, 13:34: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!
I wouldn't be surprised to discover that some schools in Britain do re-enactments of Christian festivals from time to time under the banner of RE (usually following CofE or RC practice and forgetting us Nonconformists ). They certainly do weddings: just to be different, here's a CofE school doing a Muslim one.
And why not, if these are teaching experiences? There's no pretence involved, but they should be accurate. Of course, what you cannot reproduce is the thinking with which members of faith communities approach their festivals.
Questions of sincerity and authenticity interweave here …
Not uncommonly one runs into, hears from, an atheist who is a "'cultural' [Anglican/Catholic/*whatever*] who is not a person of faith, but still attends at least on occasion, perhaps for reasons of keeping peace*in*the*family or because at least on High Holy Days, the music is beautiful, etc. ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yeah, I also have a hard time taking this "odious" stuff seriously when the people most promoting it near me are Jews fully signed up on their Jewish heritage. A whole Jewish congregation, no less! I'm not about to march over there and tell them what they're doing is somehow culturally odious.
There's a substantial difference.
The neighbors are free to invite you to their barbecue. They might not feel the same way about your barbecue which you've set up in your own back yard and copied, word-for-word & gesture-for-gesture, the one they're holding for themselves.
Well, I'm not sure where you'd put this particular group of Jews. They ARE Jews by any reasonable definition--services in Hebrew, prayer shawls, customs, holidays, the whole bit--also ancestry and ethnicity--
and they happen to be a duly constituted Lutheran church.
And being very, er, New York in orientation, they are the very opposite of shy about Seder meals in Christian settings. Whether at their home ground, or serving as hosts in sister congregations.
And yes, they catch shit for it from those who claim taht because they believe in Jesus, they are no longer Jews. And I suspect they catch shit for it from those politically-correct non-Jews who consider a Christian seder no seder at all.
They don't care.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Has anyone on the eastern side of the Pond seen this round these parts?
I'm not sure what I make of it, but am definitely thinking of it as something outside of my experience. Any non-NoAmers for whom it lies within their ken?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Didn't Callan talk about his experiences upthread? He's UK based.
I've attended a few UK based Seders:
- rural village church, one year there was a Seder meal as part of the Holy Week provision following Maundy Thursday service;
- same rural parish, as a meal as part of the Holy Week play/education sessions we put on;
- Jewish friend led one for a group of us at college;
- when Passover is a month apart from Maundy Thursday a couple of Jewish born parishioners here lead a Seder meal (I took lilypad to one)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yeah, I also have a hard time taking this "odious" stuff seriously when the people most promoting it near me are Jews fully signed up on their Jewish heritage. A whole Jewish congregation, no less! I'm not about to march over there and tell them what they're doing is somehow culturally odious.
There's a substantial difference.
The neighbors are free to invite you to their barbecue. They might not feel the same way about your barbecue which you've set up in your own back yard and copied, word-for-word & gesture-for-gesture, the one they're holding for themselves.
Well, I'm not sure where you'd put this particular group of Jews. They ARE Jews by any reasonable definition--services in Hebrew, prayer shawls, customs, holidays, the whole bit--also ancestry and ethnicity--
and they happen to be a duly constituted Lutheran church.
And being very, er, New York in orientation, they are the very opposite of shy about Seder meals in Christian settings. Whether at their home ground, or serving as hosts in sister congregations.
And yes, they catch shit for it from those who claim taht because they believe in Jesus, they are no longer Jews. And I suspect they catch shit for it from those politically-correct non-Jews who consider a Christian seder no seder at all.
They don't care.
"Jews by any reasonable definition" meaning Jews by your Christian definition. I think you will find that the vast majority of Jews do not think that
those worshipping Jesus are not Jews because Jesus did not fulfill the work of the Messiah.
Now you may think such Jews are not using a reasonable definition. However you don't get to decide for them.
You would probably feel the same way if Muslims, who see Abraham and Jesus as prophets and Mohammed as his final prophet called themselves "Christians, by any reasonable definition" I suspect you would dispute that, in the same way Jews would dispute Muslims calling themselves "Jews by any reasonable definition".
Calling your recreation of Jesus dinner with his disciples a Seder and using the traditions of post temple Judaism is the problem. Not attempting to re-enact what Jesus did, or attending a Seder. It's like the sports fans who support a team named after American Indians and do war whoops or tomahawk chops. It's disrespectful even if you're having great fun.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I'm not sure this is what you're suggesting, Palimpsest, but I find the notion that Jews can become atheists, Buddhists, and so on, and yet still be considered Jews, but if we convert to Christianity, then somehow we become Gentiles, to be false, ludicrous, and irritating. It's not like the mother's bloodline gets retroactively cut off. Or maybe we become some sort of weird being, neither Jewish nor Gentile, like a centaur? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
My ancestors down my mother's side, and her mother's side, were Orthodox Jews from Austria and Hungary. As far as I understand such matters, I am Jewish, by blood, and nothing on Earth can change that, especially not following Jesus the Messiah, the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
If people, whoever they are, don't agree, well, sorry, but that's their problem. I will try to be kind to people who don't share my Christian faith, whether they're Jew or Gentile, but I won't pretend I'm not a very real, non-contradictory Jewish Christian, not for anyone.
No meanness or harm is intended toward anyone here, Hell board or no Hell board.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
"Jews by any reasonable definition" meaning Jews by your Christian definition. I think you will find that the vast majority of Jews do not think that those worshipping Jesus are not Jews because Jesus did not fulfill the work of the Messiah.
Now you may think such Jews are not using a reasonable definition. However you don't get to decide for them.
The question is, why should they get to decide for ChastMastr?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
It's like the sports fans who support a team named after American Indians and do war whoops or tomahawk chops. It's disrespectful even if you're having great fun.
No, I reject this comparison. If a sports team named themselves the Levites and sang psalms and faked blessings as a sports chant that would be disrespectful. I don't believe anybody is conducting a Seder disrespectfully or trivialising it.
It may be historically inaccurate and some may believe an inappropriate mixture of traditions for Christians to hold their own Seders, particularly if they are importing post-Jesus era practices but I reject that it is disrespectful and even though I've never attended a "Christian Seder" I think it's outrageous that you'd compare the practice to the misappropriation and offensive parodies of Native American culture. It's not the same at all.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I'm not sure this is what you're suggesting, Palimpsest, but I find the notion that Jews can become atheists, Buddhists, and so on, and yet still be considered Jews, but if we convert to Christianity, then somehow we become Gentiles, to be false, ludicrous, and irritating. It's not like the mother's bloodline gets retroactively cut off. Or maybe we become some sort of weird being, neither Jewish nor Gentile, like a centaur?
My ancestors down my mother's side, and her mother's side, were Orthodox Jews from Austria and Hungary. As far as I understand such matters, I am Jewish, by blood, and nothing on Earth can change that, especially not following Jesus the Messiah, the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
If people, whoever they are, don't agree, well, sorry, but that's their problem. I will try to be kind to people who don't share my Christian faith, whether they're Jew or Gentile, but I won't pretend I'm not a very real, non-contradictory Jewish Christian, not for anyone.
No meanness or harm is intended toward anyone here, Hell board or no Hell board.
But what does it mean to be a Jew? I know lots of folks who consider themselves "Jewish" in an ethnic sense and/or a cultural sense but not in a religious sense. Granted most of the people I know of this description sleep in of a Sunday morning and haven't been baptized.
As I noted earlier, it's the set-apart aspect -- which I believe to be specifically religious in nature -- of this identity which requires, I think, non-Jews to take a respectfully hands-off approach to religiously Jewish practice and ritual.
You can, of course, call yourself whatever you wish, as can any of us. But what will a minyan call you when you're the tenth man?
[ 29. March 2015, 22:38: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Those sports fans don't think they're being disrespectful to American Indians even if you and I do.
To use your earlier justification; compared to the genocide and dislocation of the past, it's a mere bagatelle.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Has anyone on the eastern side of the Pond seen this round these parts?
I'm not sure what I make of it, but am definitely thinking of it as something outside of my experience. Any non-NoAmers for whom it lies within their ken?
I can't for the life of me remember what it was called but one Maundy Thursday when I was a student, the chaplaincy in Manchester hosted a meal that started as a passover meal and ended with the Eucharist. I felt a tad uncomfortable with it then and even more so in retrospect, but it was also interesting. I remember that, as a poor student, I was responsible for providing the bitter herbs.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The question is, why should they get to decide for ChastMastr?
They're defining their own group and the practices which are expected of members. If you don't follow them, you may be ethnically a Jew, but you're not a practicing member of the Jewish religion. I'm an atheist and hence while I may be an ethnic Jew, and possibly a cultural Jew, I'm not a practicing member of the religion.
I've seen similar group self definitions on this board when people have stated that Mormons aren't Christians. Despite their alleged heritage and redefinition of the word Gentile, most Jews don't consider them Jews either. You probably would also have strong opinions on someone who showed up and announced they were a self anointed Patriarch of the Orthodox Church.
It being a free country, people can self label however they please. But if the other people use a different meaning for the label that excludes that use, it's going to be seen as a false claim.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Looking up services over Easter there's a Passover meal at 5pm followed by 7pm Holy Communion with foot-washing and stripping of the altars at one of the churches I was checking.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The question is, why should they get to decide for ChastMastr?
They're defining their own group and the practices which are expected of members. If you don't follow them, you may be ethnically a Jew, but you're not a practicing member of the Jewish religion.
But AIUI, ChastMastr doesn't claim to be a practicing member of the Jewish religion, only ethnically Jewish.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But AIUI, ChastMastr doesn't claim to be a practicing member of the Jewish religion, only ethnically Jewish.
Yes, it would depend on how "practicing member of the Jewish religion" is defined. Which kind of connects in some ways to the whole supersessionism discussion over in Purgatory, i.e., how the Church connects to Israel. As I understand myself, I'm definitely ethnically a Jew; my God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; I serve the foretold Messiah; and I am not a member of the non-Christian Jewish denominations currently around, such as Orthodox Judaism, Reformed Judaism, or the like.
(Alas, the formally Christian Jewish groups I know of are mainly their own denominations and usually fundamentalist, and don't have (nor claim to have or believe in) Apostolic Succession, so I'm not really involved with them.)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Those sports fans don't think they're being disrespectful to American Indians even if you and I do.
To use your earlier justification; compared to the genocide and dislocation of the past, it's a mere bagatelle.
That's a filthy lie, I never made any such justification.
You have completely misrepresented my "justification" to take a cheap and offensive shot. I never mentioned genocide, I said that given Christians have appropriated the Jewish God and their scriptures, a meal is a mere bagatelle. There's a hell of a difference between comparing respectfully appropriating different religious and cultural practices versus murder, torture and dislocation.
Furthermore, the fact that Jesus was Jewish and we claim the Jewish scriptures and their notion of God puts a Sedar in a completely different category from the so-called sports fans.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
Except that this religion in a far off land hasn't spent the last 2000 years trying to assimilate and/or kill you and everyone like you.
Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
Except that this religion in a far off land hasn't spent the last 2000 years trying to assimilate and/or kill you and everyone like you.
Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.
Yes ... Think of: Jacob and Esau
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, and again I'm bring more Purgatorial here, if the non-Christians from some faroff land wanted to do their own reenactment of the Christian Eucharist in their own place (not in an actual church), then they can do whatever the heck they want, and who knows, maybe God would work through it somehow and do them good. It would not offend me in the slightest.
Except that this religion in a far off land hasn't spent the last 2000 years trying to assimilate and/or kill you and everyone like you.
Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.
Yes ... Think of: Jacob and Esau
But Jacob, trickster though he may be, doesn't just waltz into Esau's camp, grab a few prized possessions, and then say "Well, they're something we share in common now! We're buddies!"
That's not reconciliation. That's appropriation.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.
• Yes ... Think of: Jacob and Esau
• But Jacob, trickster though he may be, doesn't just waltz into Esau's camp, grab a few prized possessions, and then say "Well, they're something we share in common now! We're buddies!"
No, he waltzes into Esau's camp and grabs ALL the prized possessions.
Although I don't think Jacob's behavior in that regard is intended to be any sort of model for us to follow.
[ 30. March 2015, 02:17: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
Christians are not far off aliens to Jews. We're more like estranged siblings with an ongoing inheritance dispute.
• Yes ... Think of: Jacob and Esau
• But Jacob, trickster though he may be, doesn't just waltz into Esau's camp, grab a few prized possessions, and then say "Well, they're something we share in common now! We're buddies!"
No, he waltzes into Esau's camp and grabs ALL the prized possessions.
Although I don't think Jacob's behavior in that regard is intended to be any sort of model for us to follow.
For sure, the stories of the patriarchs give us few shining examples to be emulated (Abraham and Issac at the altar ... !!!) ... Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery ...
Or, much later, upstart arrogant Paul -- latecomer to "The Way" -- rudely humiliating Peter in public
But the stories are about "family" ... They're about US (not about "them") ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
"Jews by any reasonable definition" meaning Jews by your Christian definition. I think you will find that the vast majority of Jews do not think that
those worshipping Jesus are not Jews because Jesus did not fulfill the work of the Messiah.
Now you may think such Jews are not using a reasonable definition. However you don't get to decide for them.
Not MY definition at all--it is their own definition, where "their"=the Jews most concerned, who have never relinquished their heritage, their culture, their faith, nor their identity. Why should some other Jews somewhere* else be permitted to strip these particular Jews of their identity--and for nothing more than believing the Messiah has come? AFAIK the same has not been done to believers in other Jewish messianic claimants.
Once again, I am not the one defining these people as Jews. They were born into it. They continued in it. The only difference between them and their own closest flesh and blood, in heritage, culture, or what have you, is the simple fact that they believe Jesus to be the Messiah.
You can call them non-Jews if you like. But if you do, just who is doing the defining here?
*And what, incidentally, will you say to their Jewish mothers etc., who are not Christian believers, who are in some cases extremely angry at their children, but who will totally bite your heads off if you say their sons and daughters are no longer Jews? I'm not getting in the middle of that fight.
[ 30. March 2015, 04:13: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Those sports fans don't think they're being disrespectful to American Indians even if you and I do.
To use your earlier justification; compared to the genocide and dislocation of the past, it's a mere bagatelle.
That's a filthy lie, I never made any such justification.
You have completely misrepresented my "justification" to take a cheap and offensive shot. I never mentioned genocide, I said that given Christians have appropriated the Jewish God and their scriptures, a meal is a mere bagatelle. There's a hell of a difference between comparing respectfully appropriating different religious and cultural practices versus murder, torture and dislocation.
Furthermore, the fact that Jesus was Jewish and we claim the Jewish scriptures and their notion of God puts a Sedar in a completely different category from the so-called sports fans.
Perhaps you don't think so, but for most Jews, the history of Christian treatment of Judaism looks a lot more like murder, torture and dislocation than it looks like respectful "appropriation".
Oh, and there's a similar ploy with one of those sports teams. They said the name was picked in respect for an early Indian Baseball player.
[ 30. March 2015, 04:26: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
They're not practicing Jews by the definitions of the Rabbis of their mother's religion.
I'd be curious to the reception Chastmaster gets when he shows up at an Orthodox Jewish Shul and proclaims his belief in Jesus.
There's currently a fight going on in American Judaism about interfaith marraige.
When a Jewish mother and a Gentile father marry, as long as the mother does not convert the children are considered Jewish by some forms of Judaism.
When a Jewish Father and a Gentile mother marry, unless the mother takes steps to convert, many versions of Judaism do not consider the children Jewish. This is a problem given the high rate of intermarriage. So like the Pope contemplating children of same-sex partners, they are struggling to come to an accommodation.
Chastmaster is stating he's an ethnic Jew. That's fine, that is a matter of DNA.
Throwing a Seder is not an ethnic event. It's a religious event. It's not just reciting history, you're conducting prayers.
As for the theory that all Christians are Jews, I'm puzzled. The Gospels describe Gentile Christians and Jewish Christian. Did the progeny of the Gentile Christians, raised in the faith of their parents somehow become Jewish Christians? If not, when did this transformation happen?
[ 30. March 2015, 04:45: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Those sports fans don't think they're being disrespectful to American Indians even if you and I do.
To use your earlier justification; compared to the genocide and dislocation of the past, it's a mere bagatelle.
That's a filthy lie, I never made any such justification.
You have completely misrepresented my "justification" to take a cheap and offensive shot. I never mentioned genocide, I said that given Christians have appropriated the Jewish God and their scriptures, a meal is a mere bagatelle. There's a hell of a difference between comparing respectfully appropriating different religious and cultural practices versus murder, torture and dislocation.
Furthermore, the fact that Jesus was Jewish and we claim the Jewish scriptures and their notion of God puts a Sedar in a completely different category from the so-called sports fans.
Perhaps you don't think so, but for most Jews, the history of Christian treatment of Judaism looks a lot more like murder, torture and dislocation than it looks like respectful "appropriation".
Oh, and there's a similar ploy with one of those sports teams. They said the name was picked in respect for an early Indian Baseball player.
Surely you can't be so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between cultural appropriation as was being discussed and murder, torture and dislocation.
If your point is that cultural appropriation leads to and/or is the result of murder, torture and dislocation-then I disagree with you but at least make a case for it, because at the moment your points are totally irrelevant.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
They're not practicing Jews by the definitions of the Rabbis of their mother's religion.
I'd be curious to the reception Chastmaster gets when he shows up at an Orthodox Jewish Shul and proclaims his belief in Jesus.
And again in my case, it is indeed down my mother's line, through her mother and both of her mother's parents.
In either case, so what? (Not that I particularly plan on doing that--why would I?) We know who we are. More importantly, God--again, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Who sent the foretold Jewish Messiah in Whom we trust--knows who we are. And no one and nothing can take that away.
quote:
It's a religious event. It's not just reciting history, you're conducting prayers.
Yes--to the same God. If He's unhappy with it, that's between the person/people praying and Him, isn't it?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Depends on the orthodox. In Israel, there are Orthodox Jews trying to restrict right of return to Jews who come from marriages by approved Orthodox Rabbis. I wouldn't qualify by that definition; my family has a long line of secular marriages.
It's not clear they'll win that, but that is the ultra-orthodox position. It's funny, since they were originally not in favor of the founding of modern Israel.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Surely you can't be so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between cultural appropriation as was being discussed and murder, torture and dislocation.
If your point is that cultural appropriation leads to and/or is the result of murder, torture and dislocation-then I disagree with you but at least make a case for it, because at the moment your points are totally irrelevant.
The point is that the cultural appropriation comes after a history of murder, torture and dislocation. That's why you don't get to dismiss objections to the cultural appropriation as "precious" or those who object as "stupid".
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Surely you can't be so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between cultural appropriation as was being discussed and murder, torture and dislocation.
If your point is that cultural appropriation leads to and/or is the result of murder, torture and dislocation-then I disagree with you but at least make a case for it, because at the moment your points are totally irrelevant.
The point is that the cultural appropriation comes after a history of murder, torture and dislocation. That's why you don't get to dismiss objections to the cultural appropriation as "precious" or those who object as "stupid".
So cultural appropriation is unacceptable if it follows a history of murder etc. So it'd be ok for the Chinese, for example, to hold a Sedar?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
There's an awful lot of Gentile guilt masquerading as evangelical correctness and feigned sensitivity on this thread. However, I do suspect our terms of reference may be different -very different. I've seen the more fundamentalist 'wanna-be-Jews' outfits on TV, who want to be able to grow their locks, wear prayer shawls and have a replica ark of the covenant under the TV stand at home while avoiding the need to give up their bacon sandwich and have to deal with the whole circumcision thing. I guess it suits them to a degree. In such a simplistic understanding they see the Law as providing a guiding marker of security in all ethical matters while conveniently ignoring hassidic and rabbinic indenture. They essentially invent a new religion to suit their means while doing damage and causing offence all at once; not least in true relations between their long divorced parents. If this is the reference point for some in thinking about the topic of this thread then we are all, I suspect, talking at cross purposes.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
When a Jewish mother and a Gentile father marry, as long as the mother does not convert the children are considered Jewish by some forms of Judaism.
Or even if she does convert, according to Orthodox Judaism.
I have a friend who had seven Jewish great-grandparents and one Gentile great-grandparent. Unfortunately the Gentile great-grandparent was the mother's mother's mother. In each generation, the woman converted to Judaism, but the child of a convert is not considered to be born Jewish. My friend had to convert.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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