Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The annual fake Seder
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Evangeline: quote: Originally posted by Palimpsest: quote: Originally posted by Evangeline: Surely you can't be so stupid as to not be able to see a difference between cultural appropriation as was being discussed and murder, torture and dislocation.
If your point is that cultural appropriation leads to and/or is the result of murder, torture and dislocation-then I disagree with you but at least make a case for it, because at the moment your points are totally irrelevant.
The point is that the cultural appropriation comes after a history of murder, torture and dislocation. That's why you don't get to dismiss objections to the cultural appropriation as "precious" or those who object as "stupid".
So cultural appropriation is unacceptable if it follows a history of murder etc. So it'd be ok for the Chinese, for example, to hold a Sedar?
It'd be less insulting, but more bizarre. I don't think I'd call it "ok."
-------------------- Some say that man is the root of all evil Others say God's a drunkard for pain Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I have been to real seders. Despite what seems to be a common occurrence elsewhere, I have never been to a "Christian " seder. Or a teaching seder.
-------------------- Even more so than I was before
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!
Perhaps. And you might think about those grouchy Christians who aren't thrilled when the Shopping Malls respectfully hire groups of Carolers to enliven their shopping festivities.
I think that Lent and Easter would be a closer match, even ignoring the calendar synchronization. You have special foods, weird food clear out rituals like pancakes , food abstinence, stories of a people surviving a terrible experiencing and triumphantly going on to a better life.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The parallel would be if a Christian minority living under a long history of intermittently brutal persecution in the Middle-East find that there's a craze for the dominant Muslim culture to reenact a slightly caricatured Good Friday service, albeit then going on after the reenactment to have sermons explain how the Prophet is in fact the fulfillment of all these stories.
Maybe that's water off a duck's back to some but probably not to all.
-------------------- mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Palimpsest: And you might think about those grouchy Christians who aren't thrilled when the Shopping Malls respectfully hire groups of Carolers to enliven their shopping festivities.
Yes, I think they're a bunch of oversensitive prats as well.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Palimpsest: quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: I was toying with the idea - what would be comparable to Seder in Christianity - a festive party with old friends and new, abundant foods, abundant wine, retelling of the story everyone knows and loves, Children involved in the retelling, songs everyone has known since childhood (although a bit of stumbling on some of the verses) - that's our Christmas!
I think that Lent and Easter would be a closer match, even ignoring the calendar synchronization. You have special foods, weird food clear out rituals like pancakes , food abstinence, stories of a people surviving a terrible experiencing and triumphantly going on to a better life.
But no party! Well, two friends invited me to an Easter afternoon party - one is atheist, the other is unchurched believer. The church friends I usually eat lunch with are each getting together with just family, no friends, some are even skipping the coffee to be with just family.
That's why Christmas seems more parallel, the happily including friends in the partying. The kids involved in the storytelling via "nativity play", songs everyone knows by heart.
It may seem backwards, but Christmas has become much more festive and more a community celebration than Easter.
Is that because as a culture we've switched from the day itself being the celebration to anticipation being a huge part of the fun, but Maundy Thursday & Good Friday block anticipatory celebration of Easter.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I've got a vague memory of some sort of Christian seder in college. Not sure if there was a Jewish facilitator or not. Small group, very solemn.
Glad to know that a real seder can be festive!
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: I've got a vague memory of some sort of Christian seder in college. Not sure if there was a Jewish facilitator or not. Small group, very solemn.
Glad to know that a real seder can be festive!
We had one of those, too, at college. It was run by a local reformed Jewish synagogue group. The intention was basically teaching us about it. But it was a fairly lively and informal event. However, as it involved all the college community it didn't exactly have the intimate family feel that I imagine most genuine Seders must have?
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anselmina: We had one...at college...as it involved all the college community it didn't exactly have the intimate family feel that I imagine most genuine Seders must have?
Depends. Some synagogues hold Seders. The one a friend took me to had maybe 80 people, family in the sense of "all the cousins." But the shared history, culture, sense of identification gave it more of a family feel than a random 80 people would.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
An alternative view, from Rabbi Michael Lerner:
A Passover Seder Supplement (Not Just for Jews) to Bring to Your Family and Friends. (Huffpost)
quote: If you are a serious Christian you might also think about creating an Easter Seder this Sunday (after all, Jesus was a Jew and his Last Supper was actually the first night of Passover and it was a Seder that Jesus led). So feel free to borrow any elements you choose of the Passover Seder Supplement for your Easter Seder.
That article is about the Seder supplement Rabbi Lerner created. The actual supplement is here, at his "Tikkun" magazine. And it is very, very long--a combination of prose and ritual.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote: Golden Key quotes Rabbi Michael Lerner: quote: Jesus was a Jew and his Last Supper was … a Seder that Jesus led.
No, it wasn't. Seders don't show up in the historical record until the second century.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: quote: Golden Key quotes Rabbi Michael Lerner: quote: Jesus was a Jew and his Last Supper was … a Seder that Jesus led.
No, it wasn't. Seders don't show up in the historical record until the second century.
Was the meal with ritualised elements to celebrate the Passover that is described in the Gospels an anachronism written into the Gospels during or after the second century?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
There was a meal with ritualized elements celebrating Passover that Christ celebrated. The elements were different than those of the Seder, which were adapted at various times.
See the origins of Seder which mentions the approximate times of the various rituals. For example, a modern Seder doesn't sprinkle the blood of the lamb. The remaining vestige of that is a roast lamb shank bone.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Evangeline: quote:
Was the meal with ritualised elements to celebrate the Passover that is described in the Gospels an anachronism written into the Gospels during or after the second century?
The answer to that is we simply don't know. We know there is rabbinic teaching that was recorded from the time of Jesus. We know also that there was Midrashic material, referred to in the time of Jesus - which even the Gospels seem to engage at times. But it is still essentially an oral culture and therein lies the problem. Some scholars will not attempt any date for a Haggadah without the proof of a written text; an approach prevalent in Western scholarship that has a mistrust of oral transmission. It all depends on who you choose to read and what 'trust' you place in oral transmission. There are elements of the Haggadah which even at the earliest time of written form seem to be a mystery (such as the reason for 'four' sons, or the presence of an egg and obscure references to rabbinic schools). These things are not explained by the text, which to some suggests that oral transmission has failed, which in turn suggests that this was something done for a very, very long time and whose meaning has become lost. The written sources come from the second century which is not surprising as there doesn't seem to be any desire of urgency about a written record until after the collapse of the Temple and the mixing of cultures throughout the near east. It seems to have been the same for Christianity, although there are of course many other factors at work. If there was a Haggadah before the destruction of the temple (which I personally lean towards) it was obviously different from what was to come later because of the absence of the temple and the arrival of one dominant form of Judaism, but that leaves us with the problem of what is it that is different.
Personally, I lean towards there being a Haggadah that was added to by the second century rather than being written and formed anew. To me that seems to be the pattern in Judaism, rather than the creation of something entirely new. Those who did invent something new tended to be expelled from the synagogue.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by fletcher christian: quote: Originally posted by Evangeline: Was the meal with ritualised elements to celebrate the Passover that is described in the Gospels an anachronism written into the Gospels during or after the second century?
The answer to that is we simply don't know.
Begging your pardon, fletcher christian, we do know, your long paragraph following, though interesting, being somewhat beside the point.
Here is Evangeline's good question, cleaned up:
Was the meal … written into the Gospels during or after the second century?
To which the answer is, no. The gospels, save perhaps for John, are first century writings. [ 06. April 2015, 14:12: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: To which the answer is, no. The gospels, save perhaps for John, are first century writings.
Then what is it precisely that you're so inordinately vexed about?
Any attempt whatever to recreate Jesus's last meal (other than, perhaps, the Eucharist)?
Any Christian attempt to mark Passover time or celebrate a Passover meal?
Any copying of the 'modern' Seder by non-Jews?
Any copying of the post-first-century elements of the 'modern' Seder by non-Jews?
And, as a supplementary question to whatever it is that you object to, why isn't the self-help remedy of simply "not showing up" adequate to address your concerns?
(I've never been to a Christian Seder, and have no particular impulse to change that fact, but it seems pretty clear that a mainstream Christian group celebrating one is unlikely to intend it as an insult to Jews or Judaism. At worst, or so it seems to me, it might be a bit naff. There's not room enough in all Hell to whinge about everything that goes on in church that someone or other thinks is a bit naff. Why single this out?)
-------------------- "Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eliab: quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: To which the answer is, no. The gospels, save perhaps for John, are first century writings.
Then what is it precisely that you're so inordinately vexed about?
Nothing. There's are things to be properly vexed about. But we'll discuss that after we're precisely sure you've stopped beating your wife.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Silent Acolyte: quote:
Begging your pardon, fletcher christian, we do know, your long paragraph following, though interesting, being somewhat beside the point.
Well I don't think it was actually. Perhaps if you look at it in grand isolation the way you have presented it in your post, but the question was asked within a context and a context I continued to respond to.
This was the context:
quote: No, it wasn't. Seders don't show up in the historical record until the second century.
It was also in the context of the rest of the thread, which includes more than your own responses.
The original question was this:
quote:
Was the meal with ritualised elements to celebrate the Passover that is described in the Gospels an anachronism written into the Gospels during or after the second century?
Quite different from your potted version and a complex question that I thought might benefit from more than a one word answer. [ 06. April 2015, 22:33: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eliab: quote: Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte: To which the answer is, no. The gospels, save perhaps for John, are first century writings.
Then what is it precisely that you're so inordinately vexed about?
On this page, I'm not inordinately vexed about anything.
Looking for vexation? Check my interventions on page one of this thread. quote: There's not room enough in all Hell to whinge about everything that goes on in church that someone or other thinks is a bit naff. Why single this out?
Forgive me for posting on a Hell thread.
fletcher christian, nothing was written into the synoptic gospels in the second century. That would be my strongest point. It's up to you to assert that John was completed far enough into the second century for written seder material to have been incorporated.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
fletcher christian, I am being obtuse with regard to your long paragraph. My apologies.
I was reacting to the casual assertion that "we simply don't know," when, the answer to Evangeline's question as written, is categorically, of course not.
Your investigation into whether the oral tradition preceding the written seder materials of the second century may have informed the conduct of Passover meals during the time of Jesus or during the time of the gospels' formation is intriguing. There is scant evidence from the gospels to support it, but one wonders what the good observant Judaean was doing when he and his family could not make it to the Jerusalem temple for Passover.
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Twilight: Several years ago my church had one of these events and after the meal, with no warning we were treated to a Christian film called The Bridge. Horrible experience.
I'm guessing it was in the good old 'the Father killed the Son for us' spirit?
-------------------- "Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." — Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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