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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bibliophile
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
A femininist culture would be a culture where the existence of an 'Equality Policy' would be seen as a good thing.
Um, no. A feminist culture would be a culture where the existence of an 'Equality Policy' would be unnecessary.
Well if I'm getting so wrong than enlighten me then.
If the dominant culture is anti-feminist and if at the same time the 'Equality Policy' and laws exist it means one of two things.
Either a dominant anti-feminist culture wants these 'Equality Policies' and laws to exist
Or A dominant culture does not have the power to stop these policies and laws from existing.
Perhaps you could say which one of these two is the case and why you think it is the case?
Oh for fuck's sake, the entire problem with this conversation is that you think there are only two cases.
We're talking about the interaction of culture and law. Not your bloody light switch.
Let me hit you a little harder with the clue stick. For starters, the opposite of "dominant feminist culture" is NOT "dominant anti-feminist culture".* The whole world doesn't automatically divide into two neat pro- and anti- halves like that. It's a spectrum.
I realise that there's a hell of a lot of evidence on the Ship already that you only actually have 2 spaces in your brain, and a ball bearing that rolls from one to the other, but here in the real world there's a middle that needs to distributed.
* The actual opposite is "non-dominant feminist culture". Or, alternatively, you could talk about "dominant non-feminist" culture. The fact that you think that the opposite is "anti-" rather than "non-" is, IMHO, the primary cause of you driving folk crazy.
[ 15. June 2015, 15:39: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Welcome to the binary world of the right-wing. Somebody is dominant, and somebody else is subordinate. And since equality legislation has been passed, feminists are dominant, and I suppose gays are dominant, and blacks are dominant. Poor straight white men, eternal victims of the spotless mind!
The idea of social conflict or 'ideological contestation' seems to have eluded the right-wing, for some reason. I suppose it smacks of post-modernism, hence left-wing dominance.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
No. The comments pages of the average news website show that it's not confined to the right-wing. Far too many people on both "wings" are so wedded to their own side that they assume EVERYONE is on a side.
The whole of life gets treated like sport. Which, given how popular and wealthy professional sport is, isn't as much of a surprise as I'd like it to be. Winners and losers make life so much easier to understand.
(Rugby league here was so horrified by the existence of a draw in a major match, they actually changed the rules to try and prevent draws ever happening. Morons.)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think that's right. I just notice the particular martyred form of it found amongst right-wingers, bemoaning the triumph of women, gays, blacks. Men's rights sees a virulent form of it, and other forms of anti-feminism, the wimminz haz done us in.
But radical feminism, as was, also had a kind of binary quality, anything male was bad, and penises were toxic, I don't know if this still goes on, probably.
[ 15. June 2015, 15:50: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
, the wimminz haz done us in.
Don't tempt
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
, the wimminz haz done us in.
Don't tempt
Well, I often wonder if there is a kind of weird erotic pleasure among men's rights people - look at me, I am hog-tied by wimminz, and they have grabbed my python, and are siphoning it, woe is me, ooops.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I have a friend who says they often like women with guns too - hence the internet memes about Women Kurdish fighters with Kalashnikovs.
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arse
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But radical feminism, as was, also had a kind of binary quality, anything male was bad, and penises were toxic, I don't know if this still goes on, probably.
Unfortunately, yes, especially in academe. Note that although this particular article was written by a man, the concept of "gender feminism" was invented by Christina Hoff Summers, who is a woman and a feminist. I chose this article because it was a good quick intro to the subject.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah, it's like trying to mold a bust out of custard-- success factor practically nil.
( page jump vertigo- was reffering to " reasoning with Bibliophile.)
[ 15. June 2015, 16:11: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
, the wimminz haz done us in.
Don't tempt
Well, I often wonder if there is a kind of weird erotic pleasure among men's rights people - look at me, I am hog-tied by wimminz, and they have grabbed my python, and are siphoning it, woe is me, ooops.
(Probable preaching to the choir warning)
Yeah, that's why the whole " girl power" movement wound up being bullshit. Its premise was basically, use your position as a desirable object to manipulate the truly dominant folk into getting what you want.
If you have to manipulate folk, you don't really have power. If peopl are only listening to you because they find your assertiveness erotic, they aren't really listening to you.
Anything to avoid that whole idea that wimminz might have some other intrinsic purpose than being an extension of the men in their lives.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Oh certainly there are some, quetzacoatl.
IMO, the sincere men's rights proponents are looking at the detriments of their individual situation rather than the benefits their group enjoys. Same mechanism in many anti-affirmative action campaigners. "[i]I[/] am x and I am disadvantaged, therefore bring x is not an advantage". It is faulty logic, but easily manipulated and both ascribes a cause and puts it away from self.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But radical feminism, as was, also had a kind of binary quality, anything male was bad, and penises were toxic, I don't know if this still goes on, probably.
ISTM, it is and always was a small part of the movement. Contrary to male fear and fantasy, most women are straight. So you lot are needed. Though silicone and eccentric motors have reduced day to day dependency, still need men to make more womyn.
And now we reveal why women are paid less than men in the sciences. I bet research into asexual reproduction in higher-order mammals is under-funded as well.
[ 15. June 2015, 16:13: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
mousethief,
If you don't know, Christina Hoff Summers identifies as a feminist but she's a libertarian and very critical of large parts of the modern feminist movement. I think she gives an interesting perspective, but many contemporary feminists would regard her as an opponent.
She's one reason I said this:
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
It'd be possible to have a sensible discussion about to what extent feminism had become a dominant ideology within Western culture (starting with defining feminism).
Her definition might be rather different to most.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I came across very radical forms of feminism at university in the late '70s/early '80s - much of it informed by US models, I have to say (which is why I've never believed the standard European line that there isn't a Left in the US).
As Mousethief says, a lot of it was pretty out-there and whacko ... and as Oscar observes, binariness isn't restricted to one side or the other of the political spectrum.
Binariness does seem to be a feature of Bibliophile's world-view too -- I expect he's from Binaryville, Dualist County, Idaho.
There's about as much nuance in his arguments as there is in a Chick Tract. Heck, even a Chick Tract would score more highly in the subtlety stakes ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
What lilb said. I have been calling myself a feminist since I was fourteen ir so, and I didn't run into the " dicks are bad" version of feminism until I saw " I shot Andy Worhal" in my thirties. Until then, my experience of feminism had been general principals of 1. Women insisting that their point of view was valid 2. Holding up worthy and influential women as role models, when traditional history had downplayed or ignored their contributions (See: the history of computer technology) 3. Holding that gender based expectations and stereotypes hurt people of either gender. ( "free to be, you and me" was just as much a men's lib manifesto as it ws a women's lib. God Bless Rosie Greer.) The version of feminism I cut my teeth on was very much about uniting people, not dividing them.
[ 15. June 2015, 16:33: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
It is intriguing that Bibliophile has to coin terms for the Dominant Anti-Feminist Society. Most scholars when talking of such tend to oppose feminism with "Patriarchy".
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I read Bibliophile as saying that our culture is predominantly feminist in the same way that the Eastern Bloc was predominantly Marxist.
That is, any apparatchik who wanted to get to the top had to make the right noises about Marx, and any national events had to trumpet the country's Marxist ideology, even though no Eastern Bloc country bore any resemblance to anything Marx himself would have recognised as the ideal society.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Given the twist and bends he has made to say that women don't get paid less because they're women, I think that is an incredibly generous read.
And given he couldn't articulate that point clearly in several pages effort...
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think we've been able to work out what Bibliofool was trying to trying to say, Ricardus. We either don't agree with it or think he's been rather long-winded in expressing it.
I don't happen to agree with him, but would defend to my last breath his right to say it ...
Providing the rest of us reserve the right to take the mickey out of him for him binary blusterings.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I have been calling myself a feminist since I was fourteen ir so, and I didn't run into the " dicks are bad" version of feminism until I saw " I shot Andy Worhal" in my thirties. Until then, my experience of feminism had been general principals of 1. Women insisting that their point of view was valid 2. Holding up worthy and influential women as role models, when traditional history had downplayed or ignored their contributions (See: the history of computer technology) 3. Holding that gender based expectations and stereotypes hurt people of either gender. ( "free to be, you and me" was just as much a men's lib manifesto as it ws a women's lib. God Bless Rosie Greer.) The version of feminism I cut my teeth on was very much about uniting people, not dividing them.
Any father of daughters should be a feminist.
Any man who loves his wife or partner should be a feminist.
Anyone who cares are about any form of violence should be a feminist.
Feminism as you define it Kelly. We all win when women are powerful and feel good about being themselves. It's the most important social issue in the world. I am personally surrounded by intelligent powerful women.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It is intriguing that Bibliophile has to coin terms for the Dominant Anti-Feminist Society. Most scholars when talking of such tend to oppose feminism with "Patriarchy".
Jengie
Yes, I guess this is someone who is not in the swing of the normal sociological or political discourse. It's quite a shock to me to hear such black and white thinking, or as used to be said, non-dialectical. Obviously, reforms go on within patriarchy, women get the vote, they are treated less like property, they can get an education and a career, yet we could still say that patriarchal structures and attitudes continue.
I suppose the Tim Hunt thing showed these subterranean attitudes surfacing, and showing that influential people in science and elsewhere are still sexist and misogynist.
Then the right-wing speak out absurdly and say that feminism now has its own hegemony, when of course, traditionally, feminism was opposed to the patriarchal hegemony. It is interesting, like seeing a bog person brought up from the peat bog, who retains recognizable traits and features, that I had forgotten about.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
no prophet's flag is set so...: Any father of daughters should be a feminist.
Any man who loves his wife or partner should be a feminist.
Anyone who cares are about any form of violence should be a feminist.
I usually refrain from calling myself a feminist, because I'm not sure whether as a man I have a right to that title.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I usually refrain from calling myself a feminist, because I'm not sure whether as a man I have a right to that title.
I used to think this, but no-one could tell me something else, except awkward things requiring explanation like "pro-feminist". So I thought eventually that it's sort of like the "gay marriage" label. Better if we just call it marriage. Better if we just call it feminist.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Her [Christina Hoff Summers'] definition might be rather different to most.
Hmm. The definition of feminism she espouses is given here: "A first wave, 'mainstream,' or 'equity' feminist wants for women what she wants for everyone: fair treatment, without discrimination."
If that's different than most feminists, then her point is pretty well made.
[ 15. June 2015, 20:25: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We all win when women are powerful and feel good about being themselves.
Surely that depends on how you define winning?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Winning in this context: a figure of speech which means that there isn't a negative outcome for anyone, or to use another figure of speech, "no down side". But perhaps some idioms are beyond some idiots?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
The majority of people on SoF are smug middle class arseholes, with seemingly no experience of any kind of life outside their own middle class arsehole, self-congratulatory bien pendant bubble. The sore of wankers who post twats about who should be sacked next for making a joke or having an opinion that offends them. The worst thing is that they think they are enlightened and liberal when in fact they are just wankers (although I'm sure they are really very nice people.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, we love you too. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A dominent culture wouldn't need Acts of Parliament to enforce it.
A non dominant culture wouldn't be able to get such Acts of Parliament passed in the first place.
This isn't how it works. Women didn't vote themselves the right to vote; men voted women the right to vote. In the United States, our congress regularly passes laws that polls show the majority of Americans oppose.
I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat this but a feminist dominated culture is not the same thing at all as a female dominated culture. As for Congress regularly passing laws that the majority of Americans oppose that is a sign that the dominant culture doesn't always coincide in its view with the majority culture, although the latter can often follow the former.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Exactly. The dominant culture there was an anti-slavery culture. That did not make it a slave culture.
Fuck me sideways.
Have you not considered that the law needed to be changed for the very reason that society was saturated with slavery? If it was not a "slave culture" why did it take Wilberforce and co more than 20 years to pass the abolition legislation?
You're out of your depth, son. Go back to reading your fairy stories or theology books or whatever else it is that you normally do for kicks.
The dominant culture became anti slave trade and the banning of the slave trade was the result. this was a gradual process but was complete by the time that abolition of the slave trade. Parliament had some years earlier accepted in principle that the trade should be abolished but conservative minded MPs delayed the full abolition of the trade on what they saw as practical grounds. Once these objections had been overcome the Commons voted to abolish the trade by an overwhelming majority. This was the result of a change in the dominant culture not the cause.
The same was true of the abolition of slavery itself some years later.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
The majority of people on SoF are smug middle class arseholes, with seemingly no experience of any kind of life outside their own middle class arsehole, self-congratulatory bien pendant bubble. The sore of wankers who post twats about who should be sacked next for making a joke or having an opinion that offends them. The worst thing is that they think they are enlightened and liberal when in fact they are just wankers (although I'm sure they are really very nice people.
Phew. I'm in the clear.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It sounds like part of the right-wing backlash to me. Women/gays/blacks have taken over the world, and men/straights/whites have become the victims of the dominant cultures, which are feminist, homosexualist, pro-black, or however it's expressed.
It has to use very unsubtle concepts like 'dominance' to express this, and has to deny any sense of conflict or contestation. Thus if laws are passed about sex equality, that is feminist dominance, and so on.
In other news, film at 11.
A dominant feminist culture is not the same thing and a woman dominated culture as I keep having to point out. Also I get the point about contestation and conflict. My point is that these sorts of conflicts are always won by the dominant culture. If a culture can't win these sorts of contests then its not dominant.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Exactly. The dominant culture there was an anti-slavery culture. That did not make it a slave culture.
Fuck me sideways.
Have you not considered that the law needed to be changed for the very reason that society was saturated with slavery? If it was not a "slave culture" why did it take Wilberforce and co more than 20 years to pass the abolition legislation?
You're out of your depth, son. Go back to reading your fairy stories or theology books or whatever else it is that you normally do for kicks.
The dominant culture became anti slave trade and the banning of the slave trade was the result. this was a gradual process but was complete by the time that abolition of the slave trade. Parliament had some years earlier accepted in principle that the trade should be abolished but conservative minded MPs delayed the full abolition of the trade on what they saw as practical grounds. Once these objections had been overcome the Commons voted to abolish the trade by an overwhelming majority. This was the result of a change in the dominant culture not the cause.
The same was true of the abolition of slavery itself some years later.
I find it mildly amusing that you think Parliament is automatically "the dominant culture".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
That is the case. Bibliophile does have the historical facts on his side.
There was a gradual build-up of opinion against the slave trade which transcended differences of political opinion and theological position - so you'd find a High Tory like John Wesley opposed to it as well as a strong agnostic or atheist like the Whig Charles James Fox.
Evangelicals like Wilberforce opposed it, of course, as did a Unitarian such as Josiah Wedgwood - whilst the very evangelical George Whitefield was in favour of slavery on what he considered practical grounds ...
It's been estimated that the landmark petition calling for the abolition of the slave trade that was signed in Manchester Cathedral was signed by about a fifth of the city's male population -- in 18th century terms about as broad a cross-section of social classes as you were going to get at that time.
Sure, only men were invited to sign it as far as I am aware - and I can't remember whether it was only open to those who had the franchise in terms of being able to vote - but I suspect it may have extended further than that as there were ordinary mill-workers and so on who signed as far as I can gather.
So it was a case of legislation finally catching up with the popular mood.
To an extent, that may have parallels with contemporary views of gender equality - but I'm not convinced there's an exact equivalent going on here - but Bibliophile has clarified what he's driving at.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
In fairness, Orfeo, I don't think Bibliophile was saying that Parliament was the 'dominant culture', rather that a change in the dominant culture's attitude towards the slave trade led to Parliamentary legislation to abolish the trade - and later slavery itself.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Welcome to the binary world of the right-wing. Somebody is dominant, and somebody else is subordinate. And since equality legislation has been passed, feminists are dominant, and I suppose gays are dominant, and blacks are dominant. Poor straight white men, eternal victims of the spotless mind!
The great majority of people at the top of the dominant culture are men (and not just men but mostly straight white men). The dominant culture of our society is feminist because these people are pro feminist.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In fairness, Orfeo, I don't think Bibliophile was saying that Parliament was the 'dominant culture', rather that a change in the dominant culture's attitude towards the slave trade led to Parliamentary legislation to abolish the trade - and later slavery itself.
Exactly. As I say the dominant culture isn't necessarily the same as the majority culture but in this case both were anti-slave trade by the time the vote to ban the trade was passed.
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Welcome to the binary world of the right-wing. Somebody is dominant, and somebody else is subordinate. And since equality legislation has been passed, feminists are dominant, and I suppose gays are dominant, and blacks are dominant. Poor straight white men, eternal victims of the spotless mind!
The great majority of people at the top of the dominant culture are men (and not just men but mostly straight white men). The dominant culture of our society is feminist because these people are pro feminist.
Would that it were so! If it were, there would be no glass ceiling.
[ 15. June 2015, 22:22: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by : Bibliophile
....
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Fuck me sideways.
Fuck me gently with a chainsaw.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So it was a case of legislation finally catching up with the popular mood.
But that is my point. Emphasis on catching up.
I don't have time right now to write much more, but anyone who's ever voted is well aware that Parliament is not a terribly good reflection of where culture is at on any SINGLE issue. Sometimes the sort of people who are MPs are ahead of the populace, and sometimes they're way behind it.
EDIT: And that's still assuming "the populace" is some kind of monolithic entity, which is rarely the case. The great majority of issues there are fault lines based on age and wealth, to pick the most obvious.
You know why some reforms take 20 years? Because everyone's waiting for enough of the dinosaurs to die off.
[ 15. June 2015, 23:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Welcome to the binary world of the right-wing. Somebody is dominant, and somebody else is subordinate. And since equality legislation has been passed, feminists are dominant, and I suppose gays are dominant, and blacks are dominant. Poor straight white men, eternal victims of the spotless mind!
The great majority of people at the top of the dominant culture are men (and not just men but mostly straight white men). The dominant culture of our society is feminist because these people are pro feminist.
Could you give some examples of the ways in which the dominant culture of our society is feminist.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Slavery. Really? So, the majority of Britain is anti-Slavery. The ending of slavery in Britain was a populist movement. Safe enough proclamation. And now black people are equal in Britain, have equal opportunity to gain the same jobs and receive equal pay for those jobs.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I have been calling myself a feminist since I was fourteen ir so, and I didn't run into the " dicks are bad" version of feminism until I saw " I shot Andy Worhal" in my thirties. Until then, my experience of feminism had been general principals of 1. Women insisting that their point of view was valid 2. Holding up worthy and influential women as role models, when traditional history had downplayed or ignored their contributions (See: the history of computer technology) 3. Holding that gender based expectations and stereotypes hurt people of either gender. ( "free to be, you and me" was just as much a men's lib manifesto as it ws a women's lib. God Bless Rosie Greer.) The version of feminism I cut my teeth on was very much about uniting people, not dividing them.
Any father of daughters should be a feminist.
Any man who loves his wife or partner should be a feminist.
Anyone who cares are about any form of violence should be a feminist.
Feminism as you define it Kelly. We all win when women are powerful and feel good about being themselves. It's the most important social issue in the world. I am personally surrounded by intelligent powerful women.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Oh God, this is Hell, I have to say it. I have to.
As kindhearted as I am sure you words are meant, how meta is it, my friend, to see someone mansplaining the concept of feminism to a (nearly) cradle feminist?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
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Originally posted by trouty:
The majority of people on SoF are smug middle class arseholes, with seemingly no experience of any kind of life outside their own middle class arsehole, self-congratulatory bien pendant bubble. The sore of wankers who post twats about who should be sacked next for making a joke or having an opinion that offends them. The worst thing is that they think they are enlightened and liberal when in fact they are just wankers (although I'm sure they are really very nice people.
"Bien pendant"? What's that, "correctly hanging"?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I beg your pardon, fishface, I am a smug proletarian asshole.
[ 16. June 2015, 02:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
"Bien pendant"? What's that, "correctly hanging"?
"Well hung"?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Any father of daughters should be a feminist.
Any man who loves his wife or partner should be a feminist.
Anyone who cares are about any form of violence should be a feminist.
Feminism as you define it Kelly. We all win when women are powerful and feel good about being themselves. It's the most important social issue in the world. I am personally surrounded by intelligent powerful women.
Oh God, this is Hell, I have to say it. I have to.
As kindhearted as I am sure you words are meant, how meta is it, my friend, to see someone mansplaining the concept of feminism to a (nearly) cradle feminist?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Yes, but I think this does illustrate the awkwardness of being a male feminist: as much as I try to just treat people like people, I can't really turn the 'man' thing off.
Really, the most you can hope from me is a stereotypically male appreciation and support of feminism.
At best, I don't get it.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Winning in this context: a figure of speech which means that there isn't a negative outcome for anyone, or to use another figure of speech, "no down side". But perhaps some idioms are beyond some idiots?
Well that's the thing, isn't it? You say "no negative outcome for anyone", but the fact of the matter is that if more women are getting the top jobs that means fewer men are getting them. For the men concerned, that could easily be seen as a negative outcome even though it is a positive one for society as a whole.
The whole point of equality (as I see it) is that not everyone can win, therefore we should work to ensure that the winners can come from any and all parts of society. If everyone could win anyway then we wouldn't need to worry about it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Exactly. As I say the dominant culture isn't necessarily the same as the majority culture but in this case both were anti-slave trade by the time the vote to ban the trade was passed.
This is historically incoherent. There was enormous opposition to the anti-slavery movement in England because it was such an ingrained part of the fabric of society - not least because so many powerful people and interests made money from it.
It is true that many people were involved in the anti-slavery campaign but as you've stated above, mass support for something does not equate to it being the dominant culture. In fact, if we are talking about "dominant" in terms of the actions of the rich and powerful, then it took a very long time for British society to reject slavery.
Wilberforce's work leading to the Slave Trade Act of 1807 is often seen as the point where slavery ended, but this is not the case. In fact Parliamentarians took more than 20 further years to ban slavery from the whole British Empire.
It is even said that Wilberforce himself was complicit in slavery in Sierra Leone after 1807 - apparently as a "best of bad options" for managing the abolitionist colony.
As others have said, it is very rare that there is a light-switch moment in history when attitudes immediately move from one thing to another. When powerful political, cultural, historical and economic interests are involved, it takes a very long time to change things - and even longer to change individual attitudes.
The only contemporary example I can think of where there has been a rapid change in dominant attitude is when the Nazis were destroyed in post-war Germany and when views which had recently been very powerful were suddenly unacceptable.
Which all just goes to show that you, Bibliophile, don't actually know much about the crap you spout. Throwing out terms which you've self-defined in narrow and intellectually incoherent ways does not make good argument.
Even the examples you use are shown to be a shallow and shite way to see things time after time.
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arse
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