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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What motivates the left/the right
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
All I was saying was that if Bibliophile had only come across that sort of group on the left, that would explain his attitude.
His various comments on political issues lead me to conclude he's American. America has a batshit insane political media environment in which the right-wing has built for itself a massive media-bubble the likes of which are probably unimaginable to people who haven't followed US politics.
The right-wing media bubble there is truly amazing to behold. Fox News tells outright lies on a daily basis to a viewership largely comprising the under-educated elderly. Conspiracy-theorist frothing-at-the-mouth conservative bloggers fill the online conservative 'news' sites with opinion pieces of quality similar to alien abduction accounts. Any information from outside sources is rejected because it's not "conservative" in origin. That utterly insane media machine convinced a massive number of Americans that the prospect of Obama passing universal healthcare would be the worst thing that ever happened to America (worse than slavery), and was going to utterly and totally destroy America.
So your average non-thinking person in certain parts of America gets over-exposed to the anti-knowledge lobotomizer that is the right-wing media-bubble there, and ends up thinking the sorts of things that Bibliophile thinks: That liberals/left are fundamentally out to destroy America and are motivated by thoroughly evil intentions (pride, envy, wrath etc). You're giving him far too much credit when you assume he's basing that view on his personal experiences of meeting some particularly unusual left-leaning group. His views will be based on what he has been told to believe about the left, which are lies manufactured out of whole cloth by the media there.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
No, they get sold as "free trade agreements", which the left pretty consistently opposes and the right pretty consistently endorses. The current Transpacific Partnership Agreement is a pertinent example.
Its not true to say that the whole of the right supports FTAs and the whole of the left opposes them. In the US the likes of Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul oppose them and in Europe they are opposed by the likes of the Front National and UKIP. The mainstream left Democrat Party in the US and Social Democratic Parties in Europe tend to support them. So its more an issue of mainstream vs non mainstream rather than left vs right.
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
I can't think of a single recent case that matches the process you describe of the left being misused to create fake-regulation. That's just not really a thing that happens. Instead the right says "trade is good!" and signs an agreement they claim is about trade but which conveniently entrenches into law a combination of every multinational corporation's wet dream.
Of course you can't think of any cases. The whole point of propaganda is to trick people, people like you. If you could think of cases then you wouldn't be getting tricked! I know you think you're not getting tricked because you can see through propaganda aimed at the right. Well of course you can, that propaganda isn't aimed at you.
In general the left isn't used to create fake regulation to help big business, its used to create real regulation to help big business. In general any level of regulation will raise costs in a way that disproportionately hurts smaller business, thereby limiting competition for the larger companies. If the regulation can be said to have some kind of environmental or humanitarian benefit that makes it much easier to sell. If it really does have such a benefit so much the better but that isn't essential. There are many many examples of this (see articles here and here ).
One major example is foreign aid. Foreign aid is sold by the left as a way of helping poor people in poor countries. The main purpose however is to give money to friendly governments to buy goods from companies in the donor countries, a kind of double subsidy. If some of the money is spent in ways that are of net benefit to some poor people that's a bonus but isn't essential.
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I remember some ghastly left-wing groups, ranting, lack of compassion, dogmatic, totally in their heads. So what? Does that become a generalization about 'the left'? Bad logic.
All I was saying was that if Bibliophile had only come across that sort of group on the left, that would explain his attitude.
And of course there have been horrendous right wing groups.
I think there's more too it than that but I appreciate that there are faults on both sides, so not wanting to get into personal insults about individuals and bearing in mind motes and beams I won't go on with this argument.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Those on the Right are motivated by self interest, those on the Left are motivated by care and concern for others.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Its not true to say that the whole of the right supports FTAs and the whole of the left opposes them.
That's why I said "the left pretty consistently opposes and the right pretty consistently endorses". The passage of the recent trade-promotion authority bill in the US senate passed with a vote of 90% support from the right, and 70% against from the left. That's pretty typical on this issue. Here in NZ, the major right-wing party have said they support the TPP, the major center-party have been indecisive, and the major left-wing party have opposed it.
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In the US the likes of Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul oppose them and in Europe they are opposed by the likes of the Front National and UKIP.
Those people/groups are all outside of the mainstream and do not represent the majority view within their area of the political spectrum.
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The mainstream left Democrat Party in the US and Social Democratic Parties in Europe tend to support them.
The Democrats in the US Senate voted 70% against them just last month, despite the fact that their own leader was lobbying them to vote for it. You don't get 70% of a party standing against their own leader unless they really do actually have their own clear position on the subject.
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Of course you can't think of any cases. The whole point of propaganda is to trick people, people like you.
The point of propaganda is to trick the casual observer, who doesn't follow politics too closely, or isn't very well educated, or who doesn't get a diversity or opinion and hears only the propaganda, or doesn't dig too far and look into the fact for themselves. ie people not like me.
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If you could think of cases then you wouldn't be getting tricked!
If I could think of cases then it might be because they actually existed. Instead of just being a product of your imagination / propaganda you've swallowed.
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In general any level of regulation will raise costs in a way that disproportionately hurts smaller business, thereby limiting competition for the larger companies. If the regulation can be said to have some kind of environmental or humanitarian benefit that makes it much easier to sell. If it really does have such a benefit so much the better but that isn't essential. There are many many examples of this (see articles here and here ).
And you accuse me of believing propaganda... do you realize your links are to US media sites that are literally funded by the owners of some of the biggest corporations in America who would love for people to believe the sort of stuff they have managed to convince you of? They literally fund entire think-tanks to do nothing but publish this bullshit propaganda all day, everyday, about how terrible it is for the government to regulate large companies. Gee, I wonder why the owners of large companies would fund websites advocating that the government regulate large companies less... I guess they've just got hearts of gold and are concerned about all the little businesses out there that their company is crushing. That must be why they employ people to tell the public how bad it is for the government to regulate their business.
And what of their arguments (not that I have time to debunk every single argument that the dozens of right-wing propaganda think-tanks in the US can produce)? Your first link says:
quote:
The history books say that during the Progressive era, government trustbusters reined in business. Nonsense. Progressive "reforms" -- railroad regulation, meat inspection, drug certification and the rest -- were done at the behest of big companies that wanted competition managed.
Well, cool, so the history books literally say that his view is wrong. But he thinks differently to them. We should believe him over everyone else why exactly? The article provides no reasons.
Now, don't get me wrong: It's certainly theoretically possible to create regulations in a way that are intentionally designed to help big businesses over small ones. But what seems to actually happen in the US, is that a combination of right-wing politicians, lobbyists, and corruption ensure that loopholes are added to existing laws in order to create numerous carefully crafted exemptions that basically attempt to annul the regulation via a process of death by 1000 cuts. In rare cases this might have a side-effect of favoring big businesses over small ones, but that's almost always secondary to the basic goal of undermining the effectiveness of the regulation itself.
And in some sense I do agree with the argument that once the politics has got so completely and utterly corrupted, as America's political system has, almost absolutely everything the government ever does will be the result of that corruption. And at that point, the government doing less potentially sounds appealing... until you realize that the government doing less is exactly what the owners of big businesses who are the ones corrupting the government set out to achieve in the first place. The correct solution is actually decorrupt the government: Get money out of politics and actually have government by the people and for the people instead of the corrupt cesspool of oligarchy that American politics has become. Amend the Constitution to to allow campaign finance reform and abolish corporate personhood, get some public funding of elections, set some strict limits of campaign donations... basically be like every other Western democracy... and you'll find it makes a massive massive difference.
quote:
One major example is foreign aid. Foreign aid is sold by the left as a way of helping poor people in poor countries. The main purpose however is to give money to friendly governments to buy goods from companies in the donor countries, a kind of double subsidy. If some of the money is spent in ways that are of net benefit to some poor people that's a bonus but isn't essential.
Yes, the way the US does foreign aid is thoroughly corrupt through and through. It is done in a way that is good for everyone except the citizens of the country being aided.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Those on the Right are motivated by self interest, those on the Left are motivated by care and concern for others.
Agreed. But also there is a secondary group on the right who are motivated by care and concern for others but who partially or wholly believe the propaganda of the self-interested group about how their economic theories that conveniently help them are really what is best for everyone.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Asking what motivates the left or the right seems to me to be one of those questions that is essentially meaningless and generates more heat than light.
I 100% disagree. I think it's one of the most important political issues of all.
A lot of people who don't follow politics much tend to assume "well, they're all basically good people right, who just disagree over some complicated stuff that I don't really understand?" This sort of approach wrongly assumes that disagreements between political parties are some sort of arcane intellectual differences over complex issues rather than basic and fundamental differences in values and morals and in particular who is being valued and why.
You seem to have missed my point completely. I never said I differences in values weren't an issue; I said I think it's more fruitful to talk about what motivates people than about what motivates "the left" or "the right"—which concepts may overlap with political parties or may not. As for the terms "the left" or the "the right" ( or "left wing" and "right wing"), in my experience in the U.S., they are regularly used as loaded terms. Any useful purpose they may serve is outweighed by the baggage they carry.
You also seem to have made assumptions, such whether I follow politics. I deal with politics on a daily basis. I do not minimize or dismiss the differences. But I stand by my earlier comments.
Your posts, however, do illustrate well my point about the too-common tendency to dismiss those with whom we disagree as "unthinking" or predictable in how they'll "spout nonsense."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
You seem to have missed my point completely.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) Oh please, I understood your point perfectly well, and disagreed. For example you said:
quote:
I tend to assume that most people on the left, the right and in-between are motivated by what they think will make a better, more just society.
With which I could not disagree more, and I think the key forces on the right are largely motivated by selfishness.
quote:
You also seem to have made assumptions, such whether I follow politics.
No. You're reading far too much into my statements that were not about you.
quote:
Your posts, however, do illustrate well my point about the too-common tendency to dismiss those with whom we disagree as "unthinking" or predictable in how they'll "spout nonsense."
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Sure, you draw those generalizations from that totally scientific sample of things one annoyed poster has written within one 24 hour period who's unleashing simply because this is the hell board. I bet that totally validly confirms every single theory you've ever had about anything in your entire life.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Those on the Right are motivated by self interest, those on the Left are motivated by care and concern for others.
Agreed. But also there is a secondary group on the right who are motivated by care and concern for others but who partially or wholly believe the propaganda of the self-interested group about how their economic theories that conveniently help them are really what is best for everyone.
I think this group could be pretty large, to be fair.
The Right often lauds 'market forces'. Well, there are only two market forces - fear and greed.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I remember some ghastly left-wing groups, ranting, lack of compassion, dogmatic, totally in their heads. So what? Does that become a generalization about 'the left'? Bad logic.
All I was saying was that if Bibliophile had only come across that sort of group on the left, that would explain his attitude.
And of course there have been horrendous right wing groups.
Well, I wasn't criticizing you. I am just curious as to how the thread-setter arrives at his generalizations about 'the left'. Has he done much historical and political study? Or was he in a left-wing group(s)?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Those on the Right are motivated by self interest, those on the Left are motivated by care and concern for others.
I've known a lot of left-wing people who struck me as total narcissists, and full of hubris, there are quite a lot in the Labour Party. Yes, there are also some who have concern, but I just think these generalizations are wonky.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Yes, as a teenager during the Thatcher period I thought I knew who the enemy were, so it was an eye-opener for me the first time I was savaged by Guardian-toting social workers.
In professional politics I would say (but stand to be corrected) that of those good-old eight thoughts, Vanity, Pride and Greed probably find the most fertile soil in foetid little corners of the psyche, to get going.
I think Labour and Tory versions smell different and yield different fruit...but just like there's only 12 notes, folks, there's only 8 thoughts. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I notice that Labour are currently supporting Osborne's benefit cap, and the two-child limit to tax credits. Yes, very caring, these lefties.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Its not true to say that the whole of the right supports FTAs and the whole of the left opposes them.
That's why I said "the left pretty consistently opposes and the right pretty consistently endorses". The passage of the recent trade-promotion authority bill in the US senate passed with a vote of 90% support from the right, and 70% against from the left. That's pretty typical on this issue.
However the bill did pass with the support of the key Democrat, the President. Just because some Dem senators were allowed to make a stand for appearance sake doesn't mean the Democratic party doesn't support TPP or TTIP. I'm sure that more Democrats would have voted in favour if their votes had actually been needed. The European Parliament had a vote on TTIP this week and most Social Democrats voted in favour.
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Here in NZ the major left-wing party have opposed [TTP].
I looked at the Labour Party website and thy seem pretty ambiguous about TTP. If you're referring to the Greens I would remind you of what you said about parties that are "outside the mainstream and do not represent the majority view within their area of the political spectrum"
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Of course you can't think of any cases. The whole point of propaganda is to trick people, people like you.
The point of propaganda is to trick the casual observer, who doesn't follow politics too closely, or isn't very well educated, or who doesn't get a diversity or opinion and hears only the propaganda, or doesn't dig too far and look into the fact for themselves. ie people not like me.
Why on earth do you think that the Government/corporate establishment would only aim propaganda at that segment of the population. Why wouldn't it use multiple layers of propaganda to try to trick people like you who follow news and views much more closely. Do you have any idea how clueless the statement you made there is?
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Gee, I wonder why the owners of large companies would fund websites advocating that the government regulate large companies less
And why would owners of large companies give money to 'Democracy Now'? Sometimes they will need propaganda from different parts of the political spectrum. Big companies may borrow libertarian arguments for specific purposes sometimes but in general they don't like libertarianism. Much more money is spent on direct lobbying for regulations that suit them, not for general deregulation.
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Now, don't get me wrong: It's certainly theoretically possible to create regulations in a way that are intentionally designed to help big businesses over small ones.
Well then why don't you think they'd do it? You think that these very smart people very rich people would only get a system that suits them by accident? In many cases it wouldn't be too difficult. Economies of scale will mean that many regulations will be more burdonsome for small businesses than for big.
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Yes, the way the US does foreign aid is thoroughly corrupt through and through. It is done in a way that is good for everyone except the citizens of the country being aided.
Doesn't that give you a clue to the real purpose of foreign aid?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Those on the Right are motivated by self interest, those on the Left are motivated by care and concern for others.
I've known a lot of left-wing people who struck me as total narcissists, and full of hubris, there are quite a lot in the Labour Party. Yes, there are also some who have concern, but I just think these generalizations are wonky.
Yes, of course they are.
But, to be honest, it's my gut feeling that there is far more self interest in the money making business world/ moneyed/ well off right wing of politics than the left. But we don't have a left wing party to vote for in England anyway. When will the SNP, or her offspring, come down here for us?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But we don't have a left wing party to vote for in England anyway.
You've got the Labour Party to vote for. If you don't think a center left dominated party is left wing enough for you there's always the Greens on the far left.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Those on the Right are motivated by self interest, those on the Left are motivated by care and concern for others.
What passes for the left these days is pretty much those who think "radical" is putting full fat milk into a skinny latte.
Sadly - with a few honourable exceptions - the "left" sold out with Blair.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Boogie, well, OK, you can define the Labour Party as not left, I guess. I think it has been full of people out for themselves. But this illustrates the problem with such a title - as soon as we find an exception to an apparent rule, (the left are compassionate), we can invoke the No True Scotsman, or in this case, No True Left-winger. So X isn't really left-wing as he a cold callous bastard.
[ 12. July 2015, 14:09: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But we don't have a left wing party to vote for in England anyway.
You've got the Labour Party to vote for. If you don't think a center left dominated party is left wing enough for you there's always the Greens on the far left.
I would call Labour centre-right, or alternatively, neo-liberal.
[ 12. July 2015, 14:12: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But we don't have a left wing party to vote for in England anyway.
You've got the Labour Party to vote for. If you don't think a center left dominated party is left wing enough for you there's always the Greens on the far left.
I would call Labour centre-right, or alternatively, neo-liberal.
In terms of English politics I would say
Greens - Hard Left to left
Labour - Center left to left
Liberal Democrats - Center left to center right
Conservatives - Center Right to Right
UKIP - Right to hard right.
If you think that's out of balance I would point out that the Conservatives and UKIP got 55% of the English vote between them at the recent election.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But we don't have a left wing party to vote for in England anyway.
You've got the Labour Party to vote for. If you don't think a center left dominated party is left wing enough for you there's always the Greens on the far left.
I would call Labour centre-right, or alternatively, neo-liberal.
In terms of English politics I would say
Greens - Hard Left to left
Labour - Center left to left
Liberal Democrats - Center left to center right
Conservatives - Center Right to Right
UKIP - Right to hard right.
If you think that's out of balance I would point out that the Conservatives and UKIP got 55% of the English vote between them at the recent election.
I don't understand what you mean by 'left' then. Labour support a benefit cap, a ban on tax credits for more than two kids, they support private firms in the NHS, they started PFIs (private finance initiatives), deregulation of banks, outsourcing, privatisation, and so on. How is this left?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Labour support a benefit cap, a ban on tax credits for more than two kids, they support private firms in the NHS, they started PFIs (private finance initiatives), deregulation of banks, outsourcing, privatisation, and so on. How is this left?
It isn't.
They continued where Thatcher left off. I remember well the elation in 1997, followed very quickly by the let-down of 'more of the same'.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I think you're being a little harsh in retrospect. I remember something the Blessed ken once said on these boards to the effect that 'Tony Blair led one of the great reforming governments of the twentieth century ' (emphasis added but implied in the original). But then they lost it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Sorry Boogie, that's not quite right.
Thatcher moved the Conservatives right. New Labour moved to fill the moderate tight vacuum where Conservatism used to be under Heath.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think you're being a little harsh in retrospect. I remember something the Blessed ken once said on these boards to the effect that 'Tony Blair led one of the great reforming governments of the twentieth century ' (emphasis added but implied in the original). But then they lost it.
What were these reforms? A lot of Tory measures which are now criticized, were actually started by Labour, e.g. outsourcing in the NHS, academy schools, private prisons, etc. Blair is Thatcher-lite, surely? I think Labour have now just given up. In fact, on benefits, I think in the election Labour were boasting that they would be tougher than the Tories.
[ 12. July 2015, 15:09: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
New Labour under Blair/Brown endorsed market economics. Just how left wing is that?
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Isn't this partly what led to the debacle (for Labour) in Scotland? In England, why bother voting Tory-lite, when you can have the real thing?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But we don't have a left wing party to vote for in England anyway.
You've got the Labour Party to vote for. If you don't think a center left dominated party is left wing enough for you there's always the Greens on the far left.
I would call Labour centre-right, or alternatively, neo-liberal.
In terms of English politics I would say
Greens - Hard Left to left
Labour - Center left to left
Liberal Democrats - Center left to center right
Conservatives - Center Right to Right
UKIP - Right to hard right.
If you think that's out of balance I would point out that the Conservatives and UKIP got 55% of the English vote between them at the recent election.
I don't understand what you mean by 'left' then. Labour support a benefit cap, a ban on tax credits for more than two kids, they support private firms in the NHS, they started PFIs (private finance initiatives), deregulation of banks, outsourcing, privatisation, and so on. How is this left?
OK then lets go through a few of Labour's left wing policies whilst in office 1997-2010.
Introducing the minimum wage
Introducing Tax credits
School Standards and Framework Act 1998
Equalities Act 2010
Scottish and Welsh devolution
and so on
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Well, the Tories have enhanced the minimum wage, now called the living wage; tax credits help low-wage employers by a subsidy; I don't see how devolution is left-wing.
If you are saying that on the basis of that, that Labour is left-wing, I would steer clear of studying politics or history, if I were you, or you will have David Cameron down as a left-wing extremist.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, the Tories have enhanced the minimum wage, now called the living wage;
Well just like centre left governments have some right wing policies centre right ones sometimes have some left wing policies, such as that one. More typical is when they don't support the introduction of left wing policies (e.g. School Standards and Framework Act 1998 Equalities Act 2010) but then do nothing to repeal them once in office.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
tax credits help low-wage employers by a subsidy;
And? Doesn't stop it being a left wing policy
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't see how devolution is left-wing.
In the UK nationalism is considered left wing and unionism is considered right wing. Devolution is a pro nationalist policy.
[ 12. July 2015, 16:06: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Bibliophile is clearly auditioning for the position of UK political correspondence for Fox News.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
In the UK nationalism is considered left wing and unionism is considered right wing.
Except in the south.
(Hint: UKIP are English nationalists)
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But surely, Bibliophile has declared by fiat that it is so, and so it shall be so. Labour are left-wing, and probably the NHS is the purest form of Bolshevik tyranny, amen, for ever and for ever, unto the seventh generation.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
In the UK nationalism is considered left wing and unionism is considered right wing. Devolution is a pro nationalist policy.
To take nationalism, in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales it is very much left-of-centre, eg the SNP, Sinn Fein and Plaid Cymru. In England it is right wing as in the BNP and UKIP. One has to remember that UKIP's appeal in England differs from the line it peddles less successfully in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
In the UK nationalism is considered left wing and unionism is considered right wing.
Except in the south.
Yep. Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism are considered left wing. English nationalism is considered right wing. Unionism is also considered right wing. Labour in office had devolution for Wales and Scotland, power sharing for Northern Ireland and no devolution for England. So that's consistently left wing on all fronts.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
In the UK nationalism is considered left wing and unionism is considered right wing.
Except in the south.
Yep. Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism are considered left wing. English nationalism is considered right wing. Unionism is also considered right wing. Labour in office had devolution for Wales and Scotland, power sharing for Northern Ireland and no devolution for England. So that's consistently left wing on all fronts.
Oh for Pete's sake, Labour hasn't been left-wing, even comparatively, since the days of Michael Foot, when it wasn't even in government. No left-wing government would have joined in Gulf II. It would have been treated in the same way as LBJ's pleas that the UK got involved in Vietnam.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
In the UK nationalism is considered left wing and unionism is considered right wing.
Except in the south.
Yep. Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism are considered left wing. English nationalism is considered right wing. Unionism is also considered right wing. Labour in office had devolution for Wales and Scotland, power sharing for Northern Ireland and no devolution for England. So that's consistently left wing on all fronts.
But of course. I grew up in Northern Ireland, with a ringside seat from which to observe the Stormont administration, the DUP, UUP, SDLP, Sinn Fein, the IRA, Provisional IRA, INLA, UVF, UDA, UFF et al. (Wisely) moving to Scotland I was eventually part of the team tasked with setting up the Scottish Parliament. As well as being for some decades an activist in my Party of choice. What could I possibly know about the nitty-gritty of regional politics in Britain in the last 40 years compared to you?
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
In the UK nationalism is considered left wing and unionism is considered right wing.
Except in the south.
Yep. Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism are considered left wing. English nationalism is considered right wing. Unionism is also considered right wing. Labour in office had devolution for Wales and Scotland, power sharing for Northern Ireland and no devolution for England. So that's consistently left wing on all fronts.
There's a perfectly simple and rational explanation for this. Devolution has supported self-determination for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is no evidence that the Westminster parliament has significantly prevented self-determination for the English. The weight of population in favour of England within the UK makes sure of this.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
In the UK nationalism is considered left wing and unionism is considered right wing.
Except in the south.
Yep. Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism are considered left wing. English nationalism is considered right wing. Unionism is also considered right wing. Labour in office had devolution for Wales and Scotland, power sharing for Northern Ireland and no devolution for England. So that's consistently left wing on all fronts.
But of course. I grew up in Northern Ireland, with a ringside seat from which to observe the Stormont administration, the DUP, UUP, SDLP, Sinn Fein, the IRA, Provisional IRA, INLA, UVF, UDA, UFF et al. (Wisely) moving to Scotland I was eventually part of the team tasked with setting up the Scottish Parliament. As well as being for some decades an activist in my Party of choice. What could I possibly know about the nitty-gritty of regional politics in Britain in the last 40 years compared to you?
well you just said that English nationalism isn't considered left wing and I just agreed with you. Did you think I was saying you were wrong?
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I was endeavouring to indicate that you know so little about the actuality of what you pontificate about, that whether you 'agree' with me or anyone has as much meaning as our cat agreeing with the Special Theory of Relativity.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I was endeavouring to indicate that you know so little about the actuality of what you pontificate about, that whether you 'agree' with me or anyone has as much meaning as our cat agreeing with the Special Theory of Relativity.
LOL. So you're saying that you wanted to make a point about disagreeing with me, so when I agreed with you you found a way of saying that you disagreed with me agreeing with you.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Clearly your knowledge of politics is not exceeded by your reading comprehension abilities.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Your posts, however, do illustrate well my point about the too-common tendency to dismiss those with whom we disagree as "unthinking" or predictable in how they'll "spout nonsense."
Sure, you draw those generalizations from that totally scientific sample of things one annoyed poster has written within one 24 hour period who's unleashing simply because this is the hell board. I bet that totally validly confirms every single theory you've ever had about anything in your entire life.
Oh please, yourself. You'd lose the bet.
[ 12. July 2015, 17:52: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Clearly your knowledge of politics is not exceeded by your reading comprehension abilities.
My reading comprehension is just fine. Firenze said English nationaism is not considered left wing. I said 'yep I agree', she replied 'I know far more about it than you' ie criticising me for agreeing with her. I find that amusing.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
God and Mary.
Ah well, better and more patient folk than I have and continue to point out your callowness, folly, conceit and stupidity. Having no immediate need of a headache, I will leave them to it.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
God and Mary.
Ah well, better and more patient folk than I have and continue to point out your callowness, folly, conceit and stupidity. Having no immediate need of a headache, I will leave them to it.
Do you think that there's sometimes a connection between someone being a nationalist and having a chip on their shoulder?
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Seriously, people? Left and right and center and all are human, and have human motivations good and bad. None of us are the devil incarnate. Get over it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But we don't have a left wing party to vote for in England anyway.
You've got the Labour Party to vote for. If you don't think a center left dominated party is left wing enough for you there's always the Greens on the far left.
It's just been pointed out that they're actually supporting Osborne's kicking the poor in the bollocks. What makes you think we lefties think of Labour as being in the slightest left wing? Haven't been for years. Labour is centre right at most. Totally sold out to free market capitalism.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Seriously, people? Left and right and center and all are human, and have human motivations good and bad. None of us are the devil incarnate. Get over it.
Some people are more human than others.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Boogie is right. Some of what is spouted by the hard right is less than humane.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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