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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What motivates the left/the right
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Seriously, people? Left and right and center and all are human, and have human motivations good and bad. None of us are the devil incarnate. Get over it.
Fair comment. I was annoyed with one poster suggesting that leftism is motivated by pure good motives so I brought up the various bad motives that are there. However that's not the whole story either and on reflection its not the best subject for finger pointing as you say.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Seriously, people? Left and right and center and all are human, and have human motivations good and bad. None of us are the devil incarnate. Get over it.
Really? Devil incarnate is pushing it, but that bastard Osborne has impoverished people I care about who've not got much by around 1-3 grand a year by this budget. Meanwhile he's cut the tax for people who are not struggling. Devil incarnate, no, evil? Hard to say, but I find it hard to see people struggling made to struggle a whole lot more and call it "good".
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Boogie is right. Some of what is spouted by the hard right is less than humane.
It isn't the "right" that is inhumane, but the "hard". There are hard-left governments and governments that can't be termed left or right that enforce some hard and/or inhumane policies, backed by a battery of lies.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But we don't have a left wing party to vote for in England anyway.
You've got the Labour Party to vote for. If you don't think a center left dominated party is left wing enough for you there's always the Greens on the far left.
It's just been pointed out that they're actually supporting Osborne's kicking the poor in the bollocks. What makes you think we lefties think of Labour as being in the slightest left wing? Haven't been for years. Labour is centre right at most. Totally sold out to free market capitalism.
Yes I know there are lefties who think Labour are centre right. There are also UKIP supporters who think that the Conservative Party is centre left. Its a matter of perspective. At this years UK election UKIP Conservative Liberal Democrat
and Labour got nearly 90% of the vote between them so if you're placing the centre to the left of that you're placing it quite far to the left.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
You're assuming that people are no more left wing than the party they voted for. I know I and a lot of other left wingers held our noses and voted Labour - in my case the sitting MP is Denis Skinner, the Beast of Bolsover, who actually is left wing. There was no Green candidate, and anyway a lot of us naively thought that Labour was at least a better sort of Tory than the actual Tory party itself. Now we're given to wonder.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're assuming that people are no more left wing than the party they voted for. I know I and a lot of other left wingers held our noses and voted Labour - in my case the sitting MP is Denis Skinner, the Beast of Bolsover, who actually is left wing. There was no Green candidate, and anyway a lot of us naively thought that Labour was at least a better sort of Tory than the actual Tory party itself. Now we're given to wonder.
That will be a chunk of Labour voters but it won't be a majority. You'd still be left with placing over 3/4 of UK voters on the right.
As for wanting Labour to be more left wing than it is perhaps you could provide me with a list of all the Labour Party leaders of the last 40 years who have actually won a general election.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Boogie is right. Some of what is spouted by the hard right is less than humane.
I'd say this of the hard any-direction.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're assuming that people are no more left wing than the party they voted for. I know I and a lot of other left wingers held our noses and voted Labour - in my case the sitting MP is Denis Skinner, the Beast of Bolsover, who actually is left wing. There was no Green candidate, and anyway a lot of us naively thought that Labour was at least a better sort of Tory than the actual Tory party itself. Now we're given to wonder.
That will be a chunk of Labour voters but it won't be a majority. You'd still be left with placing over 3/4 of UK voters on the right.
As for wanting Labour to be more left wing than it is perhaps you could provide me with a list of all the Labour Party leaders of the last 40 years who have actually won a general election.
I don't pretend that the left is in the centre. I fully expect that 75% of UK voters are to the right of the centre-left. It rather makes sense, doesn't it? That is what we on the left should work to change - we need to sell left-wing ideas and policies, not abandon them in order to get people to vote Labour. We've already got one Tory party, God have mercy on us. The last thing we need is another one to screw us over.
I don't want Labour to be more left wing to win elections. I want it to be more left wing because I believe in left wing politics and want a party I can vote for. The role of the Labour party, a true left wing one, would be to win the war of ideas and persuade people to vote for a truly left wing party, rather than be Tory-lite just to get in power.
And Greens - far left? I missed that before, but for goodness' sake ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) - have you any idea what real far left is?
Last thought on Libertarianism, speaking of the (real) far left - I consider it to be the opposite to Communism. Like Communism, it looks plausible on paper, even attractive in some ways, but in reality, when you add people and all their messiness into it, it simply doesn't, and can't, work.
[ 12. July 2015, 22:17: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Seriously, people? Left and right and center and all are human, and have human motivations good and bad. None of us are the devil incarnate. Get over it.
Some people are more human than others.
Damn, I miss Erin. The reek of self-righteousness that hangs around this thread is ghastly. And it's coming from multiple directions.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Seriously, people? Left and right and center and all are human, and have human motivations good and bad. None of us are the devil incarnate. Get over it.
Some people are more human than others.
Damn, I miss Erin. The reek of self-righteousness that hangs around this thread is ghastly. And it's coming from multiple directions.
Well to you and anyone else offended by my own self-righteousness I am sorry. To respond to self-righteousness with self-righteousness of my own is an example of hypocritical judgement, which we are warned not to do.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Just because some Dem senators were allowed to make a stand for appearance sake doesn't mean the Democratic party doesn't support TPP or TTIP. I'm sure that more Democrats would have voted in favour if their votes had actually been needed.
For fuck's sake, your conspiracy theories are ridiculously half-baked. 70% of Democrats vote against something and your theory is that really they support it.
Try actually paying attention to reality and basing your views on evidence.
quote:
I looked at the Labour Party website and thy seem pretty ambiguous about TTP. If you're referring to the Greens I would remind you of what you said about parties that are "outside the mainstream and do not represent the majority view within their area of the political spectrum"
Of the ~7 parties here, the 3 main ones are National (right-wing), Labour (centrist), and the Greens (left-wing). With all the other parties there is uncertainty every election over whether those parties will successfully get any MPs into parliament or not.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And Greens - far left? I missed that before, but for goodness' sake - have you any idea what real far left is?
Of course he doesn't. As Alan brilliantly pointed out: "Bibliophile is clearly auditioning for the position of UK political correspondence for Fox News." In the minds of a lot of people in the US, there's very little distance in the political spectrum between giving the poor a few food stamps and full-on communism. A lot of the population really believes (probably Bibliophile included) that universal healthcare is basically communism.
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
Since we've got a lot of thoughtful left-leaning people in this thread, who have been lamenting the right-shift of Labour etc, I have a question:
Do you foresee a future leftward movement in the political spectrum? Or are we doomed to be stuck with a choice of political variations of right-wing parties, with 'centrist' governments being the most left-wing we can ever hope for, and with just token left-wing parties existing to appease the few remaining 'radicals'?
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
Just because some Dem senators were allowed to make a stand for appearance sake doesn't mean the Democratic party doesn't support TPP or TTIP. I'm sure that more Democrats would have voted in favour if their votes had actually been needed.
For fuck's sake, your conspiracy theories are ridiculously half-baked. 70% of Democrats vote against something and your theory is that really they support it.
I'm sure many of them have no real strong principles on this (or anything else). 'Taking a principled stand' on issues like this when they know their votes aren't needed isn't any kind of 'conspiracy theory'. Its just a normal part of mainstream politics
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
I looked at the Labour Party website and thy seem pretty ambiguous about TTP. If you're referring to the Greens I would remind you of what you said about parties that are "outside the mainstream and do not represent the majority view within their area of the political spectrum"
Of the ~7 parties here, the 3 main ones are National (right-wing), Labour (centrist), and the Greens (left-wing). With all the other parties there is uncertainty every election over whether those parties will successfully get any MPs into parliament or not.
I had a look at recent NZ election results. The Greens were in third place (for the third time) but they only got a slightly higher percentage of the vote than New Zealand First. There is still a big gap between them and Labour, Labour is clearly still the dominant party on the left of New Zealand politics. The 10 or so percent the Greens got is less than UKIP got in the last UK election and less than the Front National got in the first rounds of the last set of French National elections. So if you're going to say that opposition to FTAs from those parties doesn't represent the right because they are "outside the mainstream and do not represent the majority view within their area of the political spectrum" then exactly the same is true of parties like the Greens on the left.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I'm sure many of them have no real strong principles on this (or anything else).
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
I had a look at recent NZ election results.
The recent NZ election was unusual and featured quite a number of last-minute personality-based issues, and as a result the vote went unexpectedly strongly to the right. I wouldn't recommend looking at the results of the most recent election as a good beginner's guide to NZ politics.
quote:
The Greens were in third place (for the third time) but they only got a slightly higher percentage of the vote than New Zealand First.
Yes, the vote swung heavily to the right and the Greens did much worse than expected. And NZ First, which is a minor party based around its charismatic leader who excels at exploiting scandals, was 50/50 on whether it would get any MPs in the polling before the election, but due to some last-minute scandals the leader successfully muck-raked his way to quite a successful election for his party.
quote:
Labour is clearly still the dominant party on the left of New Zealand politics.
Calling New Zealand Labour "left" is a matter of opinion, and exactly like the situation in the UK with Labour there. Calling it "center" is truer. The Labour parties in both countries were historically left-wing, but have generally both embraced neo-liberalism and free-market reforms to such an extent that they are no longer the 'left' party of either country, unless you mean "the most left of the two largest parties".
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Starlight, in my opinion your post is an accurate description if what happened in the last election here and where Labour now stands. I only gave my electorate vote to Labour because our MP works well in the electorate, but she is retiring at the end of this term, so I am not sure who I will vote for,
I wish the McGillicuddy Serious Party* was still in existence .
*MSP was one of those parties that put the Party back in elections. Their one policy I remember was the Great Leap Backwards.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Seriously, people? Left and right and center and all are human, and have human motivations good and bad. None of us are the devil incarnate. Get over it.
Really? Devil incarnate is pushing it, but that bastard Osborne has impoverished people I care about who've not got much by around 1-3 grand a year by this budget. Meanwhile he's cut the tax for people who are not struggling. Devil incarnate, no, evil? Hard to say, but I find it hard to see people struggling made to struggle a whole lot more and call it "good".
I think I would go so far as to say that Osborne might be evil. There's a cyncial callousness and a willing to disregard the effects on others in order to secure his own ends, which does have- I mean this absolutely seriously- a whiff of brimstone about it.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Do you foresee a future leftward movement in the political spectrum? Or are we doomed to be stuck with a choice of political variations of right-wing parties, with 'centrist' governments being the most left-wing we can ever hope for, and with just token left-wing parties existing to appease the few remaining 'radicals'?
I would like to see the Greens organise themselves better and get a leader who is votable for.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Since we've got a lot of thoughtful left-leaning people in this thread, who have been lamenting the right-shift of Labour etc, I have a question:
Do you foresee a future leftward movement in the political spectrum? Or are we doomed to be stuck with a choice of political variations of right-wing parties, with 'centrist' governments being the most left-wing we can ever hope for, and with just token left-wing parties existing to appease the few remaining 'radicals'?
I think there will be increasing anti-austerity protests and anti-poverty campaigns. This may affect the Labour party to an extent, but I see it as a centre right party now. I doubt if this will change.
Let's face it, England is a conservative place. I envy the Scots, at least there are some political shifts going on there, although who knows how that will pan out.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think there is a political vacuum in England, with little in the way of genuine left-leaning parties, excluding the various far-left fringe groups. The LibDems are, on most issues, further left than Labour but need to regain a lot of credibility after failing to moderate the Tories while in coalition. The Greens are also to the left on most issues, but need to make gains in presenting the whole of their policies to the public, as they are so often seen as a single issue party. It is always possible that the left-leaning parts of the Labour party (which, in many places, are much stronger than the represented in the national leadership) might manage to pull the party back towards the left - or splinter off and form a new party. I do think that the dominance of parties positioned towards the right on many issues in Westmonster is an anomaly that doesn't actually represent the views of the majority of the population.
Which, of course, raises an interesting question of why the representatives of English voters aren't representative of English voters.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Shock! Bibliophile is actually right about something! That it’s a matter of perspective. Unfortunately he’s missing some of the major ramifications thereof.
So - meh. The UK Labour party are a centre party at most.
For some genuine leftiness you need to come to mainland Europe. Our President is from a party called the Socialists, which is not a dirty word here, and actually has proper socialist policies like making us pay eye-watering amounts of tax. (I reckon he’s out on his ear next election, but that’s by the by and mostly a comment on François Hollande’s utter lack of personality and failure to noticeably do anything for the last three years rather than on Socialism per se. BTW, have you ever noticed how much François Hollande looks like a sloth?)
We have also a bona fide Communist party and people actually vote for it.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Shock! Bibliophile is actually right about something! That it’s a matter of perspective. Unfortunately he’s missing some of the major ramifications thereof.
It's not just perspective. He's also missing, for want of a better word, the dimensionality of politics. In the UK at least, the terms "left" and "right" apply to a range of issues - and in very few cases would a party be either left or right on all of them. Which basically means there isn't a valid sense in which you can refer to "the left" or "the right" in anything other than the most general sense, and that general sense is going to almost always fail in any particular example.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Do you foresee a future leftward movement in the political spectrum? Or are we doomed to be stuck with a choice of political variations of right-wing parties, with 'centrist' governments being the most left-wing we can ever hope for, and with just token left-wing parties existing to appease the few remaining 'radicals'?
As an evangelical whose politics are definitely of the 'soft leftie' variety, and who is pro-welfare state, I'm very worried about the current political situation in the UK, especially given Labour's craven cowardice in not tackling the Tories over their plans to turn Britain back to the Downton Abbey era. The level of cheer-leading in our right-wing media is genuinely horrifying to me. Of course the media will have its biases, absolutely everybody has a bias, but this degree of sycophancy in the national media is anti-democratic. You need a credible opposition to provide checks and balances.
I'm not a fan of the hard Left though, and don't trust them for solutions. Somebody needs to name me a hard Left party, past or present, that is actually good with finances. The track record is not ... good.
I still think that the Scandinavian model is about as good as it gets.
But, yeah ... I'm not feeling optimistic. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
The present UK government is THE most anti-Christian one we've ever had, because of their merciless war on the poor. Good job the churches are stepping up to the plate on the food-bank front, eh?
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The LibDems are, on most issues, further left than Labour but need to regain a lot of credibility after failing to moderate the Tories while in coalition.
After Osborne's latest budget I don't think we can doubt that the LibDems moderated the Tories considerably. We'll see more evidence of this over the next few years.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
The left in the Netherlands is a bit of a mixed bag. The Partij van de Arbeid ("Party for Labour") is just about as neo-liberalist as British Labour, I also consider them centre-right.
I normally vote GroenLinks ("GreenLeft") in the national elections. My image of them is that I agree with many of their ideals, but they have been rather incompetent all around. They have a new front man, Jesse Klaver, that everyone is rather excited about. We'll see if he'll be able to make a difference.
The Socialistische Partij is making some headwaves, but in spite of good election results, the other parties have still been successful in keeping them out of government. I had some concerns on their earlier leader, Jan Marijnissen, who seemed to rule the party with an iron hand, but things seem to have improved since then.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
There's a cyncial callousness and a willing to disregard the effects on others in order to secure his own ends...
...that is shared by virtually every political party in history, be they of the left, the centre or the right.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Do you foresee a future leftward movement in the political spectrum? Or are we doomed to be stuck with a choice of political variations of right-wing parties, with 'centrist' governments being the most left-wing we can ever hope for, and with just token left-wing parties existing to appease the few remaining 'radicals'?
I would like to see the Greens organise themselves better and get a leader who is votable for.
One of their policies is the abolition of the armed forces. Will people note for that in today's volatile climate?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
There's a cyncial callousness and a willing to disregard the effects on others in order to secure his own ends...
...that is shared by virtually every political party in history, be they of the left, the centre or the right.
No. Actually I think that very few parties, and no mainstream party in this country, consistently and insitutionally displays these traits. Note that it is of Mr Osborne specifically, rather than his party, that I am speaking. I do not rule out the possibility that there may be others, in any party, who might behave in the same way. But there are very many in all parties who would not.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Do you foresee a future leftward movement in the political spectrum? Or are we doomed to be stuck with a choice of political variations of right-wing parties, with 'centrist' governments being the most left-wing we can ever hope for, and with just token left-wing parties existing to appease the few remaining 'radicals'?
I would like to see the Greens organise themselves better and get a leader who is votable for.
One of their policies is the abolition of the armed forces. Will people note for that in today's volatile climate?
The Tory plan is no better. It emphasizes procurement of shiny kit (Trident replacement, F-35s and the aircraft carriers sans aircraft) at the expense of operational troops such that on-the-ground operations become impossible and sailors get moved from ship-to-ship with minimal leave in between. Couple that with worsening pay and conditions and is it a surprise that experienced personnel leave as soon as an opportunity presents itself?
If the Tory policy is designed to do anything it appears to be to give taxpayers money to major defence contractors.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If the Tory policy is designed to do anything it appears to be to give taxpayers money to major defence contractors.
Since Tory policy seems to be almost entirely to give taxpayers money to bankers, and other of their chums, this should not be a surprise.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
Do you foresee a future leftward movement in the political spectrum? Or are we doomed to be stuck with a choice of political variations of right-wing parties, with 'centrist' governments being the most left-wing we can ever hope for, and with just token left-wing parties existing to appease the few remaining 'radicals'?
I would like to see the Greens organise themselves better and get a leader who is votable for.
One of their policies is the abolition of the armed forces. Will people note for that in today's volatile climate?
The Tory plan is no better. It emphasizes procurement of shiny kit (Trident replacement, F-35s and the aircraft carriers sans aircraft) at the expense of operational troops such that on-the-ground operations become impossible and sailors get moved from ship-to-ship with minimal leave in between. Couple that with worsening pay and conditions and is it a surprise that experienced personnel leave as soon as an opportunity presents itself?
If the Tory policy is designed to do anything it appears to be to give taxpayers money to major defence contractors.
Just a small point of order, from one who doesn't work for a major defence contractor but who did once go down to the sea in ships to do my business in great waters, the F35s *are* the aircraft for the aircraft carriers, so unless you're suggesting that they should be built into the deck or something I think you need to modify that to aircraft carriers comme aircraft.
I don't disagree with your analysis that people are voting with their feet (after all, I did) but ironically I think you've got it a*se about face.
We've just been through an utterly abnormal period of landlocked land war (which has happened precisely not-remotely-often before this in UK military history) where the RAF and RN (RN in particular) have been beggared precisely to focus all the spending on the operational troops.
Consequently, we're now in a period where this is being rebalanced and that noise you can hear from the vicinity of Whitehall is the sound of an army which has been spared most of the cost cutting since 2001 bleating that it's now being judged on it's deeply unimpressive performance* since 2003 and having its cloth cut accordingly.**
*At a strategic rather than operational level, for the most part. Although not entirely.
**Apparently this is going to be the first defence review in living memory where the RN and RAF trounce the army. Allegedly, when the services were asked for strategic plans of what they existed to do, and therefore what they needed in order to do them in the 21st century, the RN and RAF had already done their thinking and replied with copious closely argued staffwork. The army hadn't, didn't, and apparently still hasn't.... If you believe the gossip doing the rounds on Arrse.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If the Tory policy is designed to do anything it appears to be to give taxpayers money to major defence contractors.
Since Tory policy seems to be almost entirely to give taxpayers money to bankers, and other of their chums, this should not be a surprise.
I was always led to believe the defence industrial base tends to do better under Labour because it's mass manufacturing in often deprived areas. Particularly given the MoD's preference for buying British. The Tories on the other hand find it easier to cut defence than Labour because they expect to get most of the uniform votes regardless and defence manufacturing happens in safe Red seats anyway.
[ 13. July 2015, 12:10: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If the Tory policy is designed to do anything it appears to be to give taxpayers money to major defence contractors.
The US seems to have exactly the same problem. And they go one step further - their defence contractor lobbyists are constantly encouraging them to go to war. So you get US politicians variously trying to sabotage peace efforts, advocating for invading all sorts of countries, and literally advocating for never-ending war.
Corruption that means funneling tax-payer money into private industry like the right aims to do is one thing, but actually actively looking to foment war in order to do so is a whole other level of wrong.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Betjemaniac, you are quite right that some the F-35s are intended to go to sea, but the decision about the kind of F-35 was changed (twice I believe) and hence a good deal of redesign, delay and additional expenditure has taken place regarding the "bomb magnets".
I suppose with two of them we might manage to put one to sea, with a full support group, some of the time.
And as far as the Army is concerned the number "on the ground" has only been maintained by use of reservists in place of regulars.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If the Tory policy is designed to do anything it appears to be to give taxpayers money to major defence contractors.
The US seems to have exactly the same problem. And they go one step further - their defence contractor lobbyists are constantly encouraging them to go to war. So you get US politicians variously trying to sabotage peace efforts, advocating for invading all sorts of countries, and literally advocating for never-ending war.
Corruption that means funneling tax-payer money into private industry like the right aims to do is one thing, but actually actively looking to foment war in order to do so is a whole other level of wrong.
I can't speak for the US, but the situation in the UK is more complicated than that. Almost all defence manufacturing has historically been in safe Labour seats (although some of them went blue the other month).
Labour certainly has a strand that would advocate disarmament and turning them into ploughshare factories, but they have another one that wants to stand up for the working man and keep people in work.
Given that all sales from the industry go to the government (or friendly foreign governments) and there's pretty well only one UK armaments company of any scale left, they're essentially a self-running part of the public sector, providing 1950s style unionised mass employment.
Basically, the profits may well go to the corporate oligarchy, but it becomes a vested interest of the UK left to keep the plants open and manufacturing. If it weren't crude (and inaccurate given the sheer number of wars the last Labour administration launched us into) you could almost sum up the UK arms industry as a closed circle where the left build the weapons for the right to use.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
And as far as the Army is concerned the number "on the ground" has only been maintained by use of reservists in place of regulars.
Indeed - although that's another bone of contention between the services. If the army was on 660 days separation from base port over 3 years like the navy then fewer reserves would have been needed...
For a start tours could have been at least 8 months rather than six as the norm - or even 12 months like the US. Army roulement is still set up to punch x battalions through Northern Ireland at a steady drumbeat rather than fight an ongoing war.
After the best part of 14 years of ongoing war, that's unbelievable.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
The US seems to have exactly the same problem. And they go one step further - their defence contractor lobbyists are constantly encouraging them to go to war. So you get US politicians variously trying to sabotage peace efforts, advocating for invading all sorts of countries, and literally advocating for never-ending war.
Corruption that means funneling tax-payer money into private industry like the right aims to do is one thing, but actually actively looking to foment war in order to do so is a whole other level of wrong.
This is why we desperately need a strong space program. These giant companies are going to suck the government teat (dry if we let them) anyway. So instead of making munitions, give them incentive to make space toys. Same employment, same profit, just making something that doesn't require running generations of young people through the meat grinder and bombing the shit out of foreign nations.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I think mousethief's is actually a good idea.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This is why we desperately need a strong space program. These giant companies are going to suck the government teat (dry if we let them) anyway. So instead of making munitions, give them incentive to make space toys. Same employment, same profit, just making something that doesn't require running generations of young people through the meat grinder and bombing the shit out of foreign nations.
That and massive renewable investment. A lot of the shipyard and missile construction capability, and a lot of the aerospace expertise, could be retooled and redirected to implementing wind and wave power.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
The US seems to have exactly the same problem. And they go one step further - their defence contractor lobbyists are constantly encouraging them to go to war. So you get US politicians variously trying to sabotage peace efforts, advocating for invading all sorts of countries, and literally advocating for never-ending war.
Corruption that means funneling tax-payer money into private industry like the right aims to do is one thing, but actually actively looking to foment war in order to do so is a whole other level of wrong.
This is why we desperately need a strong space program. These giant companies are going to suck the government teat (dry if we let them) anyway. So instead of making munitions, give them incentive to make space toys. Same employment, same profit, just making something that doesn't require running generations of young people through the meat grinder and bombing the shit out of foreign nations.
Reprt from Iron Mountain, anybody?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mr Clingford
Shipmate
# 7961
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Posted
If you own shiny toys you want to play with them.
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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.
If only.
Posts: 1660 | From: A Fleeting moment | Registered: Jul 2004
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starlight:
quote:
Of course you can't think of any cases. The whole point of propaganda is to trick people, people like you.
The point of propaganda is to trick the casual observer, who doesn't follow politics too closely, or isn't very well educated, or who doesn't get a diversity or opinion and hears only the propaganda, or doesn't dig too far and look into the fact for themselves. ie people not like me.
Starlight
Have a look at my comments on the 'Iran Deal' thread in the Purgatory section for an explanation of an example of propaganda aimed exactly at people like you.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I think mousethief's is actually a good idea.
Yes, especially if we don't the attention of the Borg or bring back organisms that will bring about the zombie apocalypse. I suspect, though, that whatever is done, there will be folks who have the job of looking at what is accomplished and come up with ways to use it to beat the shit out of folks.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Oh, I do miss ken at times like this... As he often said, the left is motivated by liberty, equality and fraternity; the right by stability, hierarchy, and personal responsibility (i.e., "I'm all right Jack...")
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No no no. For proper Conservatives 'personal responsibility' is absolutely not 'I'm all right Jack'. It's a strong sense of being responsible for what you do, morally as well as in practical terms.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
the right by stability, hierarchy, and personal responsibility (i.e., "I'm all right Jack...")
The left only ever abolish old kinds of hierarchy to replace them with new hierarchies. As for stability and personal responsibility is being against disorder and irresponsibility 'I'm alright Jack'?
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No no no. For proper Conservatives 'personal responsibility' is absolutely not 'I'm all right Jack'. It's a strong sense of being responsible for what you do, morally as well as in practical terms.
That's as maybe, but it is most often invoked as a reason for not giving a shit for people who are down on their luck.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It is, and actually I am at fault here in conflating 'the right' with 'Conservatives'. At the risk of bringing that Scotsman onto the stage, I'd say that the 'I'm all right Jack' position is more characteristic of Liberals of the right. Conservatives will be more ready than (many) people on the Left to identify personal behaviour as a factor in disadvantage, but there's also a Conservative tradition of social reciprocity- a paternalistic and hierarchical one, perhaps, but nonetheless it's there. If you dig out, for example, the Commons debates on the reformed Poor Law in the 1830s (big ones in about 1837- online Hansard through the Parliament website) you'll see there was actually quite a lot of criticism of the harshness of the new regime and this came both from radicals and from old-fashioned Tories like Colonel Sibthorp (arguing from different bases, of course).
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
It's true that old fashioned tory paternalism was rather more helpful to the poor than the whiggish policies of laissez-faire and utilitarianism. What's not reasonable is to conflate the modern conservative movement, and particularly not the British conservative party, with the toryism of Joseph Chamberlain. It owes a lot more to Jeremy Bentham, bastard that he was, at times.
[ 25. July 2015, 14:12: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Agreed. So perhaps the kind of conservatism that I am thinking of doesn't really fit into the contemporary language of 'left' and 'right' at all. I've been wasting your time and mine!
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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