|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: 92yo woman kicked out for not tithing
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
The other side of that coin is sitting through a sermon on how God has promised us an amazing sex life on account of us being straight and married and all. Apparently God wants us to be at it like bunny rabbits.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
Well of course. The congregation must grow.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
|
Posted
Any time I have sat through a joy-of-married-sex sermon, the average age of the congregation has been 50+
Plus, all of the clergy I've heard preaching on this topic have had older children / teens and not likely to grow the congregation either.
I think the last such sermon was about sex being part of God's plan for marriage. So if you're married, sex is part of God's plan for YOU!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Any time I have sat through a joy-of-married-sex sermon, the average age of the congregation has been 50+
Plus, all of the clergy I've heard preaching on this topic have had older children / teens and not likely to grow the congregation either.
I think the last such sermon was about sex being part of God's plan for marriage. So if you're married, sex is part of God's plan for YOU!
In other words the preacher isn't getting any, and is sending a coded message to his/her spouse.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
The other side of that coin is sitting through a sermon on how God has promised us an amazing sex life on account of us being straight and married and all. Apparently God wants us to be at it like bunny rabbits.
And what, precisely, is "it"? Our dear pastor does mention "the joys of marriage" but he doesn't mention the scripturally acceptable repertoire. Is oral sex OK for example?
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Is oral sex OK for example?
Yes - that's not sex at all ... ask Bill Clinton ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
If people insist on going to churches that expect tithing then that's their problem, I suppose. There are plenty of churches that fund their existence and mission in other ways.
The link doesn't make it clear, though, what sort of pastoral care this woman was receiving. If there was regular communication between herself and an official pastoral team then this issue could have been sorted out before reaching the media.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Certainly tithing is compulsory in many big charismatic churches.
I've heard this rumor but I have never seen it in any charismatic churches I or my friends have attended. More often hear rumors of enforced tithe spoken about Baptist (non-Charismatic) churches, but it's not true of any Baptists I have known. They do tend to refer to whatever they give as their "tithe," but that doesn't necessarily mean 10%, some friends say "we tithe 5%." quote:
Tithing was seen as a way to secure blessings.
Lots of my "conservative" friends believe if you don't tithe (however they define it) God can't bless you. It's part of the fear-based religion some churches teach, as if failure even by accident to jump all the right hoops means God will (must) turn his back on you. We don't treat our kids that way! Are we more loving than God?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whoa. Nobody checks to see how you're doing until you've been gone 2 years? That's depressing.
Nope. It's a way to check to see who has removed themselves from membership by choosing to neither commune nor contribute.
I was told (haven't bothered to verify) a local Methodist church drops you from it's membership list if two years pass with no contact by you - no attendance, no money given. They remove you sooner if they know you are attending elsewhere instead.
In some past years dues to National were based on head count, and churches wanted to remove inactives as fast as possible, apparently that's why the two year rule was invented, to stop churches from removing people who had missed a few months in order to lower their dues. Where I live dues are now a percentage of the total budget, but some people still think the old rules are in place and resent infrequent attenders for "costing us money."
Basing dues on the budget causes a different distortion in pushing as much as possible off budget, so there are constant appeals for off-budget contributions for which people get no tax deduction. But that's better than looking for excuses to remove membership to save on dues.
Churches the way we do them cost a lot of money. Probably any money raising/cost reducing method will have inherent distortions.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
The Church of England checks the electoral roll every three years, and in some churches there is a period when every active member has to sign up or not be on the roll. Being added to the roll otherwise has to be agreed at a PCC. This doesn't affect attendance at church or services, but gives rights to sit on various committees and vote for the PCC, but not the church wardens. Living in the parish gives a different kind of membership and the right to vote for the church wardens.
The electoral roll can include people who attend from outside the parish and gives one of the numbers for calculation of Parish Share to the Diocese, the other is average attendance, taken on a couple of Sundays in October. There is an ongoing desire to reduce the number on the electoral roll who aren't active. A church with an electoral roll of 200 people and average attendance of 30 can be charged a lot of money in Parish Share as there is an expectation that they will be putting a certain amount in the collection.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Oh this happens in some NFI churches I know. Certainly tithing is compulsory in many big charismatic churches. The NFI church I am especially thinking of asks people to not return if they don't set up tithing within a few visits.
It certainly does not happen in my large NFI church. We don't even have a collection in our services. And neither is membership forced, we've attended our church for 11 years without being members and no-one has batted an eyelid.
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The electoral roll ... gives one of the numbers for calculation of Parish Share to the Diocese, the other is average attendance, taken on a couple of Sundays in October.
Point of fact: different CofE Dioceses use varying formulae of greater or lesser complexity, as I think we've discussed before. The 20 page document prescribing ours is here. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
--------------------
The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
A neighbour at my last home used to attend a very large church in London, where the collection plates or bags were handed around for notes only. If you needed to contribute in coins, you had to go to the front.
That is why she "used" to go, as she was in financial difficulties at the time.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Oh this happens in some NFI churches I know. Certainly tithing is compulsory in many big charismatic churches. The NFI church I am especially thinking of asks people to not return if they don't set up tithing within a few visits.
It certainly does not happen in my large NFI church. We don't even have a collection in our services. And neither is membership forced, we've attended our church for 11 years without being members and no-one has batted an eyelid.
If they don't take an offering or tithe where does the money come from?
They either have one or two very wealthy backers or else the church is benefiting from some impressive investments somewhere....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Oh this happens in some NFI churches I know. Certainly tithing is compulsory in many big charismatic churches. The NFI church I am especially thinking of asks people to not return if they don't set up tithing within a few visits.
It certainly does not happen in my large NFI church. We don't even have a collection in our services. And neither is membership forced, we've attended our church for 11 years without being members and no-one has batted an eyelid.
If they don't take an offering or tithe where does the money come from?
They either have one or two very wealthy backers or else the church is benefiting from some impressive investments somewhere....
Most people who give regularly do so directly from their banks, as we do. Our congregation is generally on the younger side (about a quarter of our congregation are under 18 so lots of families)so we are relaxed about electronic giving and find it convenient. There is a collection box for those who prefer to give cash but there is no collection during services unless for a specific fundraising purpose.
NFI is (or rather was, it's UK branch is now called Relational Mission since Terry Virgo retired) an umbrella group of independent churches. So it is quite normal for practices to vary a lot between them.
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Well, that's still money, isn't it? I'm sure that those direct debits are viewed as the equivalent of tithes.
Perhaps it's a question of need. It must be traumatic to be a church of faithful tithers that still can't make its way. Tithing churches that are doing okay might become more relaxed about the whole thing, especially if, as you say, the tithing tradition doesn't go back very far for them.
I'm from a Methodist background, and we don't tithe. We do, however, hear endless talk from the pulpit about how the church needs more money. In fact, I've had to make those appeals myself! I never liked doing it or hearing it. The future for Methodist congregations is to maximise the letting potential of their properties.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Oh this happens in some NFI churches I know. Certainly tithing is compulsory in many big charismatic churches. The NFI church I am especially thinking of asks people to not return if they don't set up tithing within a few visits.
It certainly does not happen in my large NFI church. We don't even have a collection in our services. And neither is membership forced, we've attended our church for 11 years without being members and no-one has batted an eyelid.
Your point being? I made it clear it happened in NFI (and other) churches I know personally, nowhere did I say it happens in all NFI churches.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Certainly tithing is compulsory in many big charismatic churches.
I've heard this rumor but I have never seen it in any charismatic churches I or my friends have attended. More often hear rumors of enforced tithe spoken about Baptist (non-Charismatic) churches, but it's not true of any Baptists I have known. They do tend to refer to whatever they give as their "tithe," but that doesn't necessarily mean 10%, some friends say "we tithe 5%." quote:
Tithing was seen as a way to secure blessings.
Lots of my "conservative" friends believe if you don't tithe (however they define it) God can't bless you. It's part of the fear-based religion some churches teach, as if failure even by accident to jump all the right hoops means God will (must) turn his back on you. We don't treat our kids that way! Are we more loving than God?
I have never heard of it happening in Baptist churches here, but UK Baptists are different to their US counterparts. I can't see it happening in BUGB Baptist churches, but who knows about the independent ones.
I have seen it first-hand in the charismatic churches in question though.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
... Nobody asked who this lady was, tried to find out where she had been, or took any interest in her except as a $0 on their line items ...
Absolutely. If the "pastor" had the remotest idea of the meaning of his title, then he (or at least a delegated elder/deacon/whatever) should have (a) noticed that the lady hadn't been attending church; and (b) gone to visit her to find out why and check to see if she was all right (not to make sure she was paying her dues).
What a bloody disgrace. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
As I recall from the days of being a Congregationalist - and the occasion of being accepted as a member was very serious and solemn and I almost could not speak the words - to take part in the communion of another church (each being its own community, as described) you had to be "in good standing" with your own church. On your own recognisances.
Which being said, I understand that when my mother was disfellowshipped (for which there was nothing in the rule book) for the mysterious matter which was never explained, all the local free churches, to which her lack of good standing had been communicated, were perfectly happy to accept the family, should they be the place to which the Holy Spirit guided the family.
(Do I wish I could see the minute books.)
You can under a Freedom of Information Request. If the church is a charity (e.g if it is claiming Gift Aid) then the records have to be opened for you unless they are (pre) classified at the time as confidential.
[ 21. August 2015, 07:19: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Oh this happens in some NFI churches I know. Certainly tithing is compulsory in many big charismatic churches. The NFI church I am especially thinking of asks people to not return if they don't set up tithing within a few visits.
I agree with you there. It's made pretty clear (in what used to be called Restorationist circles) that tithing was/is an expected part of membership; it's certainly covered in the membership course. Despite protestations to the contrary, churches in the NFI "network" are not as free as some make out. There is still - even after Terry Virgo's departure - a fair bit of pressure from the NFI hierarchy to be on message.
In some churches of this type of my acquaintance tithing went further - for big projects the suggestion was that members tithe 10% of the equity in their houses.
Some baptist (BUGB) churches would place a little more emphasis on this than others. Most would cover giving in the broadest sense as part of explaining what being part of the church is all about. The only BUGB churches that might be a bit more prescriptive are those linked to some of the charismatic networks.
As a Minister I have nothing to do with church money other than to be paid and I don't know who gives what, apart from myself. Most of my colleagues, I'm sure, would be the same.
It's arguable anyway what "tithe" means today. For some giving nothing is right - they don't have enough to live. For others (and I was once in that position myself), disposable income suggests that more than 10% is appropriate. Whatever the amount, good sense, good grace and generosity are the key things.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Required tithing is fucked up.
There is a restaurant in Los Angeles whose founder opened his doors with a "pay what you wish" philosophy. Gave hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of free meals. Did this for over 80 years. That family is Christian in name and deed. In the end, the restaurant needed so many repairs that had been neglected in order to feed people, it was sold.
80 years, millions of meals. And it ended, not because the model was bad, but because the neighborhood deteriorated.
Yes, a church has practical realities which require money. But requiring a fee is wrong.
How much did Jesus charge for his big fish dinner, I wonder?
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
2 Corinthians 9:7 says
"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."
That's pretty much what we hear about giving in our congregation and there seems to be plenty of money contributed.
Maybe they should get off her back and, if anything, some folks should see how they could help out around her home.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
As I recall from the days of being a Congregationalist - and the occasion of being accepted as a member was very serious and solemn and I almost could not speak the words - to take part in the communion of another church (each being its own community, as described) you had to be "in good standing" with your own church. On your own recognisances.
Which being said, I understand that when my mother was disfellowshipped (for which there was nothing in the rule book) for the mysterious matter which was never explained, all the local free churches, to which her lack of good standing had been communicated, were perfectly happy to accept the family, should they be the place to which the Holy Spirit guided the family.
(Do I wish I could see the minute books.)
You can under a Freedom of Information Request. If the church is a charity (e.g if it is claiming Gift Aid) then the records have to be opened for you unless they are (pre) classified at the time as confidential.
Thank you, but it was a long time ago, the church became URC, then moved to unite with the local Methodists, and the old church (the one that had given aid to asylum seekers) burned down. And besides, everyone concerned directly is dead.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
My biggest problem with tithe is the idea that it all goes to the church institution, instead of to "God's work" which (I think) is much broader than just the church institution.
A doctor in town spent 10% of his work time running a free clinic. That's a 10% reduction in his income to help people with no other access to medical care (we have no charity hospital in the county). Some churches would argue that doesn't count because it isn't paid to them.
One friend with a decent income told me he pledges zero and puts an equivalent amount into children's music programs the church can't afford, including his providing all the music and supplies for weekly music classes he teaches free in the church's school. He gets to work within his budget when he sees a need for the class instead of going through the long political committee approval/disapproval system.
When at "stewardship" time they hand out a (nameless) chart of how many members give zero per year, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 5000, 10,000, more - his zero in cash probably shows up as zero donated even though the cash he spends for the direct benefit of the church and it's school is significant.
Define tithe.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
My biggest problem with tithe is the idea that it all goes to the church institution, instead of to "God's work" which (I think) is much broader than just the church institution.
It doesn't always. I know in our last parish the church itself tithed, both to the greater church (ex. district and synod) and to general human welfare projects not necessarily connected to the church. There was also a "pastor's discretion" fund meant to be used for quietly meeting embarrassing/pressing needs--e.g. housing the suddenly kicked out, buying needed meds, and so forth. These were line items in the church budget.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
[QUOTE] Thank you, but it was a long time ago, the church became URC, then moved to unite with the local Methodists, and the old church (the one that had given aid to asylum seekers) burned down. And besides, everyone concerned directly is dead.
There's a chance that the records have been archived by the denomination (many Baptist records are in the keeping of the Baptist Historical Society).
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I think ExclamationMark has it on the money about the BUGB - and the 'restorationists' - although I get the impression that compulsory tithing isn't anywhere near as widespread on that side of things as it was back in the 1980s and 1990s.
Things will vary - but I also agree with him that NFI (or Relational Mission as it calls itself nowadays) isn't quite as relaxed as it likes to think it is ... which doesn't necessarily contradict The Heavenly Anarchist's experience as NFI congregations do vary a fair bit.
NFI still seems rather 'corporate' to me, but then, I'm looking at it through a rather long telescope these days.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Looking back at the link, the story seems to be inadequately titled. The woman hasn't been 'kicked out' of the church; her membership has been withdrawn. She's presumably still welcome to attend worship if and when she's able to, and if she has church friends she won't automatically lose them. Of course, if she values her membership then its loss will still cause some offence.
In some churches that have specific rules about membership, it's normal for considerable numbers of attenders (sometimes the majority) not to be members.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
In my own (embarrassing personal) experience, it doesn't really work that way. Public withdrawal of membership is experienced as being kicked out, regardless of what the technicalities may be. I was excommunicated on false grounds, and when a couple of the individuals responsible turned up at our new church home a couple years later to ask us to attend their final service (dissolving congregation), my reaction was a polite form of "Hell no!" I was trying (am still trying) to forgive those people, but there was no way I was going to be able to sit down and eat with them as if nothing had happened. Not without formal reconciliation between us.
And being an ex-member is by no means the same thing as being a not-yet-member.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Fair enough, but doesn't it depend on the circumstances?
I'm hoping that this particular episode was a misunderstanding, and that it needn't have reached the media at all. While it's being sorted out, I'd hope that the old lady, if she's well enough to attend, could attend, and that her friends friends would welcome her back. They'd surely be happy to see her if that meant her health was improving.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
I sure hope so. But of course it HAS reached the media, and that's rarely good. Though if the decision-makers change course in the future, it might be worth it.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
|
Posted
It hasn't helped the First Baptist Church of Bainbridge since apparently people have been blaming it; there is a disclaimer up on their web page saying we aren't the First African Baptist Church that has been in the news recently and then given the latter's phone number and facebook page. Admittedly the facebook page hasn't been updated in a couple of years. Bainbridge also has a First African Missionary Baptist Church which disclaimed any connection.
The Independent has a different slant
quote:
Relatives of Ms King, a former school teacher, told the WALB television network she was one of two dozen people who had received a letter from the church informing them they were no longer members.
I will point out that the expulsion letter said she was no longer "able to or expected to ...participate in worship opportunities...". That doesn't sound like she would be welcome if she showed up and might even be shown the door.
--------------------
spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
