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Source: (consider it) Thread: Labour Purge
Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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My twitter feed today is full of people complaining about the purge the Labour Party (UK) seem to be doing to get rid of people who might possibly ever thought something not in line with the current right-wing Labour thought.

Which seems to match with anyone who might possibly vote for Corbyn. And, not surprisingly, a lot of people seem to be rather frustrated with it.

It seems to me that Labour have shot themselves in the foot with a blunderbuss by doing this. Whoever wins this leadership election will have their credibility in tatters. Even if Corbyn wins, this election has been tainted by this activity.

So can they ever recover? Have we seen the last of Labour as a political force? Is this the most utterly stupid thing they have ever done?

This is in Hell because it seems like the ultimate attack on democracy. It seems like the Labour Party no longer believe in a democratic process. Given that the Tories also don't seem to, maybe we should give up with the idea.

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Anglican't
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Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be a counter-purge once Corbyn wins.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

This is in Hell because it seems like the ultimate attack on democracy. It seems like the Labour Party no longer believe in a democratic process. Given that the Tories also don't seem to, maybe we should give up with the idea.

I'm not quite so sure. It depends on whether you think a political party has an identity aside from that of "the collective opinions of anyone who wants to join it".

At some level, parties have to be able to enforce guidelines for membership - or should parties be able to stage hostile takeovers of other political parties?

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be a counter-purge once Corbyn wins.

I actually doubt it. There will be an almighty amount of harrumphing, spitting out of dumbies and toys thrown out of prams, and a few on the right of the party may flounce off.
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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
This is in Hell because it seems like the ultimate attack on democracy. It seems like the Labour Party no longer believe in a democratic process. Given that the Tories also don't seem to, maybe we should give up with the idea.

With front benchers saying that the party will revolt if JC is elected (code for I will revolt but blame it on others) then democracy in the Labour party is already cold, stiff and giving off a putrid smell.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
and a few on the right of the party may flounce off.

...and probably very few outright flounces. You can certainly expect a few MPs on the right to retire to the back benches and bide their time, expecting that the Corbyn party will be a short-lived disaster, and that their turn will come again, but I wouldn't expect many to jump ship completely.

Whether Corbyn is a disaster for the Labour party or not, I suspect we might get to find out.

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Jack o' the Green
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

This is in Hell because it seems like the ultimate attack on democracy. It seems like the Labour Party no longer believe in a democratic process. Given that the Tories also don't seem to, maybe we should give up with the idea.

I'm not quite so sure. It depends on whether you think a political party has an identity aside from that of "the collective opinions of anyone who wants to join it".

At some level, parties have to be able to enforce guidelines for membership - or should parties be able to stage hostile takeovers of other political parties?

The whole idea of registered supporters was a stupid one to begin with. If you want to support a party, become a member. Ed Miliband should've seen this coming. However, once UKIP and Conservative party members started registering, Labour had no alternative but to start purging.
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Jay-Emm
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It's like they (not just Labour) don't believe it anymore.
We had a raft of worrying comments when the Ukraine thing started. More with the Greece thing.
And now this.

Again there kind of is a point for caution. Losing 50 'certains' for even 80 maybes is probably foolish (either way). You can definitely think that Jeremy would be a disaster for labour/britain and warn against that.
But this isn't that,
this is blackmailing the british public with the threat of creating the situation.

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Bibliophile
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be a counter-purge once Corbyn wins.

Maybe there will be

quote:
“I will absolutely use our supporters to push our agenda up to the parliamentary party and get them to follow that,” he said. “We have to encourage the Parliamentary Labour Party to be part of that process and not to stand in the way of democratising the party and empowering the party members. It is going to be an interesting discussion.”

Mr Corbyn’s comments will fuel fears on the right of the party that his election will precipitate a return of the “trigger ballot” fights of the 1980s where those on the left of the party attempted to deselect MPs who disagreed with the party’s left-wing platform.

Privately, some Labour MPs have told The Independent that they fear they will be “purged” under the cover of boundary changes that are likely to mean large numbers of MPs have to seek early reselection ahead of the next election.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-tells-labour-mps-if-you-dont-back-me-the-grassroots-will-rise-up- 10462770.html
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Arethosemyfeet
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When it comes from the electorate it's hardly a purge. It's just a case of voting for people who actually agree with their views, rather than people who take their money and their votes and proceed to screw them.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
This is in Hell because it seems like the ultimate attack on democracy. It seems like the Labour Party no longer believe in a democratic process. Given that the Tories also don't seem to, maybe we should give up with the idea.

With front benchers saying that the party will revolt if JC is elected (code for I will revolt but blame it on others) then democracy in the Labour party is already cold, stiff and giving off a putrid smell.
It's long been a problem with and in the Labour Party that people can't keep their precious fucking mouths shut. The Tories don't do it (members leave and that is it) and the dear old Communist Party insists on members following the party line once that has been decided.

If only, if only.

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leo
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Thatcher purged 'the wets' and it didn't do her any harm.

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Anglican't
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Did the Conservative Party or major elements within it actively threaten to deselect sitting moderate Tory MPs?
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Helen-Eva
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Don't worry, I'm sure there'll be a counter-purge once Corbyn wins.

When I saw this thread title I thought that's what it was about - there are already plenty of people ridiculing anyone with views anywhere to the right of Mr Corbyn's - my FB is full of such posts. It's like if you don't vote Corbyn you're not proper Labour.

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quetzalcoatl
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At the moment, this all sounds exaggerated to me. No doubt various people want to portray the leadership election as a farcical uproar, for their own nefarious purposes.

I suppose the Blairites are in a right old panic, and perhaps are briefing like mad against Corbyn.

The test will come when he is leader. I'm not sure if the right-wing will drift away, or actively campaign against him, or whatever. Into the dustbin of history, more likely. (Har har, must stop quoting Trotsky, if I'm to be allowed into Labour party meetings).

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Did the Conservative Party or major elements within it actively threaten to deselect sitting moderate Tory MPs?

No, they just went ahead and did it anyway.
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Did the Conservative Party or major elements within it actively threaten to deselect sitting moderate Tory MPs?

No, they just went ahead and did it anyway.
Any examples? Genuine question.
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quetzalcoatl
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The example that I always remember is Nigel Nicholson who I think was deselected, because of his strong criticism of Eden's Suez policy. Of course, a long time ago.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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I think there is something subtly different between the Thatcher purges and this one. thatcher was trying to purge the centre or moderates from the party - it was an attempt to define the Tories as more definitively right-wing.

Whereas Labour seem to be purging the left-wing from their party. Given how well the centrist LibDems have done over the last few decades, this seems obtuse in the extreme. They are alienating those who are their natural supporters.

It seems that Labour have been wanting to be Tory-lite, and purging the more left-wing for a while. First it was Militant, who, I think, were probably not really in line with core Labour ideas (not that this justifies it). Now they seem to be purging people who are in line with core Labour beliefs.

It is almost like the Tories rejecting anyone who supports privatisation and the free market.

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quetzalcoatl
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Does anyone have any substantive evidence that the left are being purged? I haven't seen any, beyond the anecdotal, e.g. Jeremy Hardy. The BBC are saying that 3000 voting applications have been rejected, but there is no clue as to how many would vote for whom. And it's possible that we will never know.

I see that Burnham is saying that thousands of Tories have paid their £3 in order to vote for Corbyn, again, is this genuine or a guess?

I hope the Blairites are not angling for a cancellation of the whole thing, on the grounds that the vote was suspect. That would really discredit them.

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
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My feed had a number of people who were themselves being told their votes were rejected. So it is not just second hand suggestions.

Whatever the truth about it, politics is about image and trust, and the image has been badly dented.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Whatever the truth about it, politics is about image and trust, and the image has been badly dented.

Indeed. The party doesn't look competent enough to run an election which isn't great if they're claiming to be competent enough to run the country.
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Spike

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Personally I thought this new rule allowing just about anyone to vote was ridiculous right from the start and knew it would cause these problems. Previously, to have any voting rights you needed to be a full member for a minimum of three months and not be in arrears. To allow anyone to vote simply by donating three quid right up until the day before the election is asking for trouble.

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Sioni Sais
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When I first read the voting scheme I thought it was a spoof (one gets these on FB) but no, the dear old Labour Party appears to have shot itself in both feet with one bullet.

There's no point complaining about "the meeja" when you make it so damned easy.

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Whatever the truth about it, politics is about image and trust, and the image has been badly dented.

Indeed. The party doesn't look competent enough to run an election which isn't great if they're claiming to be competent enough to run the country.
The ballot is being run by electoral reform services, who do this stuff for pretty much everyone.

My impression is that the new voting system is based on an american style primary.

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quetzalcoatl
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But if Yvette Cooper was well in the lead in the polls, and apparently going to win, would there be all this trouble about voting and invalid votes, and so on? Surely it's because Corbyn has exploded their tin pot little world, that people are now saying, oh the voting system was idiotic, and so on.

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Snags
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I see that Burnham is saying that thousands of Tories have paid their £3 in order to vote for Corbyn, again, is this genuine or a guess?

I hope the Blairites are not angling for a cancellation of the whole thing, on the grounds that the vote was suspect. That would really discredit them.

I don't know about thousands, but the Torygraph was running a 'joke' campaign for such a thing, and I have one rabid right-wing friend who has definitely joined in multiple guises just to vote for Corbyn, and claims to have friends who have done so 50+ times. Obviously on the basis that as rabid right-wingers they think Corbyn will utterly destroy the Labour party.

He's not the kind of person to joke about such things, so I would certainly believe that he and anyone he cites has done so.

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Anglican't
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'Tories for Corbyn' is definitely a thing and some people I know have registered to vote for him. Whether their numbers run to four figures, though, I'm not sure. I was tempted myself but decided against in the end.
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Arethosemyfeet
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Given that names and addresses will be being checked against the electoral register I doubt anyone registering 50 times is likely to get through the screening process. Plus I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to blow £150+ on it.
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Schroedinger's cat

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That's just chump change for a toy, isn't it?

I do agree that the idea of a supporter who can vote for just £3 is asking for trouble. I can understand why they did it, but there was always a danger of it being abused.

If they had counted the votes as 1/10 of a vote - still of influence, but much less so - it would have made more sense. More people still having a say, but much harder to influence the results.

The problem is they have fucked up the initial process of identifying who should have a say, and now they are fucking up the election entirely. Making their new leader an ideal target for Cameron to question their legitimacy. All at a time when they need to be presenting a solid and effective opposition.

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quetzalcoatl
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I think that will depend on how well Corbyn deals with Cameron. If he looks/sounds solid, and skewers him on various issues, and Cameron starts going red in the face, and blusters, then people will stop worrying about the voting. On the other hand ...

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The problem is they have fucked up the initial process of identifying who should have a say,

It seems we can't win - we got criticised for the trade union block vote so we became more democratic - and we get critised again.

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tessaB
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Beloved daughter has not been allowed to vote. She has voted for the labour party since she was old enough to vote and supports Corbyn.
I wonder if she can get her £3:00 back?

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that will depend on how well Corbyn deals with Cameron. If he looks/sounds solid, and skewers him on various issues, and Cameron starts going red in the face, and blusters, then people will stop worrying about the voting. On the other hand ...

It will be interesting to see how a Corbyn leadership affects general political discourse and I think in some respects it might make life much harder for Cameron. Some arguments might be harder to make in the face of a hard-left opposition and Corbyn may prove to be quite a deft debater (I don't think he's exactly known for being a House of Commons performer at the moment). It's by no means certain, but there could be a shift in the way politics is debated. That said, I don't think these things will alter the result of the 2020 election.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It seems we can't win - we got criticised for the trade union block vote so we became more democratic - and we get critised again.

If you wish to run an election on the basis of "anyone who pays three quid gets a vote" then you can, of course, but tacking on some kind of post-hoc "unless we don't like you" doesn't seem quite the thing.

What would be un-democratic about "one member, one vote", where membership requires some evidence of ongoing support of the party - sustained membership for some period, support for the party in an election etc.

IMO, either the latter, or a genuine open primary style election would be democratic. What is alleged to be taking place is a bit of a shambles, really.

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Firenze

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quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Beloved daughter has not been allowed to vote. She has voted for the labour party since she was old enough to vote and supports Corbyn.

Well, not to worry, eh? Her vote for Corbyn will be supplied by some Tory mole.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It seems we can't win - we got criticised for the trade union block vote so we became more democratic - and we get critised again.

If you wish to run an election on the basis of "anyone who pays three quid gets a vote"
I didn't have to pay anything.

And those who did had to say what affiliations etc. they had and sign a sort of pledge.

Tory leadership elections are done by the 1922 committee - only.

[ 22. August 2015, 16:53: Message edited by: leo ]

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The problem is they have fucked up the initial process of identifying who should have a say,

It seems we can't win - we got criticised for the trade union block vote so we became more democratic - and we get critised again.
How is rejecting people who might vote for the wrong purpose "more democratic"?

I think, in principle, a wider range of people voting for a party leader is a good thing. For the party to truly represent the wider people who might support them, this is a positive thing.

The problem comes when this is "We want a wider support base, but only of people who agree with us."

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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Tory leadership elections are done by the 1922 committee - only.

Erm, not quite. The Parliamentary Conservative Party vote until there are two candidates remaining and those candidates are then put forward to the party membership.

So far, it's worked reasonably well.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
'Tories for Corbyn' is definitely a thing and some people I know have registered to vote for him. Whether their numbers run to four figures, though, I'm not sure. I was tempted myself but decided against in the end.

It would of course be actual fraud, I wonder if they will go ahead and prosecute any of the more high profile people who have done this.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Beloved daughter has not been allowed to vote. She has voted for the labour party since she was old enough to vote and supports Corbyn.
I wonder if she can get her £3:00 back?

No, but she could appeal. Have they given a reason ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
'Tories for Corbyn' is definitely a thing and some people I know have registered to vote for him. Whether their numbers run to four figures, though, I'm not sure. I was tempted myself but decided against in the end.

It would of course be actual fraud,
How so?

quote:
I wonder if they will go ahead and prosecute any of the more high profile people who have done this.

The Party could, but it'd presumably be a bit of a Pyrrhic victory? After making a bit of a mess of this election, the whole story would then be set out again in open court (and reported in the media) in detail in 12-18 months time, when people might be beginning to forget about the story.
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think that will depend on how well Corbyn deals with Cameron. If he looks/sounds solid, and skewers him on various issues, and Cameron starts going red in the face, and blusters, then people will stop worrying about the voting. On the other hand ...

It will be interesting to see how a Corbyn leadership affects general political discourse and I think in some respects it might make life much harder for Cameron. Some arguments might be harder to make in the face of a hard-left opposition and Corbyn may prove to be quite a deft debater (I don't think he's exactly known for being a House of Commons performer at the moment). It's by no means certain, but there could be a shift in the way politics is debated. That said, I don't think these things will alter the result of the 2020 election.
I can't wait to see the contest between Cameron and Corbyn, but I don't really know what to expect. My wife said she thought Cameron would sneer, but I think he won't. If I was him, I would start off respectful to Corbyn, and bide my time.

Surely, this could reinvigorate political life? Of course, Corbyn might be a total flop.

Also, the combination of a Corbyn-led Labour party and the SNP might be interesting.

Well, I feel interested in politics again, after a long period. I can't get excited by Yvette Cooper.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
'Tories for Corbyn' is definitely a thing and some people I know have registered to vote for him. Whether their numbers run to four figures, though, I'm not sure. I was tempted myself but decided against in the end.

It would of course be actual fraud,
How so?

Because you would be obtaining a benefit by deception.

I would also think that politician trying to sabotage an election in another political party is, or ought to be, in violation of the ethics and standards of parliament.

It is not better rthan obtaing a vote via a bribe.

[ 22. August 2015, 22:11: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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Doublethink - I think any MPs engaging in this behaviour should be slapped. But I suspect that it is not MPs as such, just party members.

It would depend on the actual wording as to whether they have committed fraud.

It is the problem with the "supporter" category. For a member (I believe all parties have the same), you have to declare that you are not a member of any other party. Supporters, I presume, did not have the same restriction.

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Doublethink.
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Yes they did.

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Adeodatus
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It's interesting that as recently as 17 May a Labour Party press release announced that Harriet Harman would say:
quote:
Anyone – providing they are on the electoral register, can become a registered supporter, pay £3 to and have a vote to decide our next leader.

"This is the first time a political party in this country has opened up its leadership contest in this way and I think there will be a real appetite for it out there.

It's funny, isn't it, how something that seems like a good idea at the time so quickly turns into something that's going to bring on the Apocalypse.

Except that it looks like the Apocalypse will be bypassing the majority of people who agree with Corbyn's idea to renationalise the railways and utilities. It'll bypass the thousands of people who seem actually to be becoming interested in politics again. It'll even bypass the surprising number of leading economists who think that he might be onto something. In fact the only victims of what's looking like a rather small-scale Apocalypse will be the right-wing Blairites who spent the last few years cosying up to big business and the Murdoch press, while quietly shuffling their inflated earnings offshore.

I can live with an Apocalypse like that.

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It's funny, isn't it, how something that seems like a good idea at the time so quickly turns into something that's going to bring on the Apocalypse.

Well, I for one didn't think it was a good idea at the time. Right from the outset I thought it was a ridiculous idea.

I've been a fully paid up member for over 20 years. I've devoted a lot of I me and effort into campaigning for the party and I find it a bit insulting that all of a sudden just about anybody can now have a say in how the party is run without even being a full member.

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Bibliophile
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I think the worst thing about Corbyn is his apparent hostility to the UK and the US and his apparent love of their enemies. His promotion of Sinn Fein/IRA in the middle of their terrorist attacks on Britain, his 'friends' in Hamas and Hezbollah, his support of Argentina's claim to the Falklands. This demonstrates the kind of hatred for his own country you sometimes see on the far left.
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passer

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quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
I think the worst thing about Corbyn is his apparent hostility to the UK and the US and his apparent love of their enemies. His promotion of Sinn Fein/IRA in the middle of their terrorist attacks on Britain, his 'friends' in Hamas and Hezbollah, his support of Argentina's claim to the Falklands. This demonstrates the kind of hatred for his own country you sometimes see on the far left.

Hardly a hatred of his own country, that's just your words. I doubt he's ever come out and said "I hate my country." Whereas you choose to interpret his activities/statements as such a hatred, rather than the presentation of a different point of view. Look to thyself. There are plenty of people who think that the UK should give the Falklands back to Argentina, get the fuck out of the interfering in Middle East politics which has resulted in the globalisation of the jihadist aspirations of a bunch of poorly-educated crooks and bandits, and actually consider that there is some corner of a foreign land which is forever - well, Ireland actually.

What the Labour Party actually needs is a set of coherent and deliverable policies. Ever since Kinnock, their approach seems to have been: "Please give us a list of what you would like (which is largely free stuff provided at the expense of The State) and we will promise it to you if you vote for us."

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