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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Cheesy confirmation bias
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a shit whether you believe or agree with what I believe. But I do give a shit about the way in which you say so.
And if you tell me you find enlightenment in dancing naked round a pole, well, fine. I’ll think you’re wrong. I’ll probably tell you so. But I won’t tell you you’re a liar or stupid or out to aggrandize yourself. Because it’s possible to be sincerely wrong.
And it’s also possible to be polite while disagreeing with someone you consider sincerely wrong.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Someone mentions their small group Bible study and you instantly know precisely what it's like and what it does and doesn't do and why it's bad.
No.. of course I don't know exactly what it is like, but I have 25 years of experience in small bible studies, so I have a pretty good idea I think. I also have thoughts on what I think are and are not happening in a bible study.
This statement is just so patently false that it stands as an excellent example of what we're talking about here. The notion that from a brief mention of a small group Bible study-- really that name and nothing more-- you know precisely what it is like, the assumption that every small group Bible study is precisely the same, when in fact different groups are rarely precisely the same within the same congregation much less across denominations/traditions-- it's ludicrous. And your assumption that you can leap to such conclusions is precisely why it's impossible to engage whatever useful points you're trying to make.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
This statement is just so patently false that it stands as an excellent example of what we're talking about here. The notion that from a brief mention of a small group Bible study-- really that name and nothing more-- you know precisely what it is like, the assumption that every small group Bible study is precisely the same, when in fact different groups are rarely precisely the same within the same congregation much less across denominations/traditions-- it's ludicrous. And your assumption that you can leap to such conclusions is precisely why it's impossible to engage whatever useful points you're trying to make.
"Leap to conclusions"? What conclusion have I leapt to specifically about LC's bible study?
I have made a meta-understanding comment of the nature of bible studies. I have not specifically said anything about what happens at LC's bible study, other than that I don't believe the statement she has made about it.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
As to this:
quote:
you know precisely what it is like, the assumption that every small group Bible study is precisely the same, when in fact different groups are rarely precisely the same within the same congregation much less across denominations/traditions
I never said anything of the kind. I made some statements about the term worldview, which I believe has a very specific meaning and that a small bible study in a specific church is very unlikely to include people with truly different worldviews.
But of their very nature, bible studies take a certain form - in that, for example, the participants expect to get something useful out of the study. If they did not, it wouldn't be a bible study, would it?
One doesn't have to know everything above every bible study to see that they must, in and of themselves, operate in a certain framework. And then I've made some statements about the nature of that framework.
You don't have to agree, but that does not specifically say anything about anyone's individual bible study experience.
[ 26. August 2015, 14:58: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a shit whether you believe or agree with what I believe. But I do give a shit about the way in which you say so.
And if you tell me you find enlightenment in dancing naked round a pole, well, fine. I’ll think you’re wrong. I’ll probably tell you so. But I won’t tell you you’re a liar or stupid or out to aggrandize yourself. Because it’s possible to be sincerely wrong.
Which is EXACTLY what Mr Cheesy thinks you are. Sincerely wrong. He was explicit about that.
FWIW, after fucking years of listening to this "personal relationship with God" charismatic guff whilst feeling and experiencing approximately the square root of fuck all that's more than faint and transitory and quite possibly nothing at all, going through stages of bewilderment that God appears to love everyone else except you, wondering what you're doing wrong, terror that you're not "in" and are going to burn forever even though you don't know what you did wrong, all because this apparently central experiential "personal relationship" is so so important but so so elusive, I'm not surprised if he feels like taking the concept and pissing on it whilst singing Hallelujah.
[ 26. August 2015, 15:15: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I respectfully disagree, Boogie. It's the spirituality of those whose faith involves a personal relationship with God that is under attack, istm. This is a very profound and important aspect of faith to some.
That's what I said.
It's a difficult discussion because people feel so deeply about their faith and what they see as their personal relationship with Jesus.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It should not be trashed imv.
But feeling that your faith is being 'trashed' or under attack when it is simply being questioned is an over-reaction imo.
And when folks start to mention demons as if that's the reason for the questions I begin to wonder what century we are living in.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
]If I personally attacked you, then you'd know about it, you poor poppet. It must be hard being such a fragile creature that you expect everyone to fawn over your every word when you post them in Purgatory.
Here's where the critique of you Cheesy is justified. Better would be not to let your style of communication contaminate your message. But I think you know that from prior discussion. You're being a turnip now, and turnips get boiled and mashed. Please don't be a jerk and let us get back to reasonable discussion..
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
[crosspost: this is to our guest of dishonor]
Other people can and do manage to question people's views without being an asshole about it. Go and do likewise.
Ok, you are correct in that mr cheesy can be overly confrontational in the manner in which he expresses disagreement. But I honestly do not think this is the entire reason for the Hell call.
I think his take on a sensitive issue contributed the main stock of fuel. Rudeness may have been the spark, but there had to be something in place for the spark to catch.
I know I have subjects which are very likely to trigger strong reactions in me, so this is not a condemnation of any of you.
X-posted with boogie who said it better.
quote:
But feeling that your faith is being 'trashed' or under attack when it is simply being questioned is an over-reaction imo.
[ 26. August 2015, 15:41: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It should not be trashed imv.
But feeling that your faith is being 'trashed' or under attack when it is simply being questioned is an over-reaction imo.
But I think it's the way mr cheesy questioned it. Luigi also questioned Lamb Chopped's experiences and didn't come to blows with her or draw a Hell call from anyone because he was courteous, if probing, with his questioning. mr cheesy just jumped straight in and went for thr attack.
Oh and (and this isn't aimed at you, Boogie), calling an argument "self-aggrandizing" and then saying you're attacking the argument, not the person, seems a tad disingenuous to me. Self-aggrandizing means, essentially, putting up an argument to boost one's own standing, power, ego etc. If you say an argument's self-aggrandizing, you're essentially saying the person's deploying to big themselves up. It's not just an attack on the argument, it's an attack on the person themselves by saying they're doing it to big themselves up.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I think that the idea that bible study is related to spirituality (in the context of the "relationship with God") is one which suggests those who attend a lot of bible studies are more spiritual than those who don't. I believe such points are [usually] made by people who attend a lot of bible studies.
The idea is, I believe, in and of itself a way to suggest that one is more spiritual than the one who doesn't attend said bible studies.
This relates to LC, because she said it. But the point I made (with poor spelling) was directly related to the idea, not directly to the person.
I don't apologise for that. I think it is a deeply insidious and wrong idea.
[ 26. August 2015, 16:31: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I respectfully disagree, Boogie. It's the spirituality of those whose faith involves a personal relationship with God that is under attack, istm. This is a very profound and important aspect of faith to some.
That's what I said.
It's a difficult discussion because people feel so deeply about their faith and what they see as their personal relationship with Jesus.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It should not be trashed imv.
But feeling that your faith is being 'trashed' or under attack when it is simply being questioned is an over-reaction imo.
And when folks start to mention demons as if that's the reason for the questions I begin to wonder what century we are living in.
No, it wasn't what you said. You said that it was as if Jesus was being attacked. No, it isn't. It is the spirituality of a Christian who is in relationship with God that is being attacked - and it is under attack and being trashed when it is being said that it is faked, false, and undesirable within the Christian church.
And when am I supposed to have posted anything about demons, or shied away from questions?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Leap to conclusions"? What conclusion have I leapt to specifically about LC's bible study?
I have made a meta-understanding comment of the nature of bible studies. I have not specifically said anything about what happens at LC's bible study, other than that I don't believe the statement she has made about it.
And there you go again. Thanks for calling me a liar.
At least you did it in Hell this time, instead of in Purg.
[ 26. August 2015, 16:42: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a shit whether you believe or agree with what I believe. But I do give a shit about the way in which you say so.
And if you tell me you find enlightenment in dancing naked round a pole, well, fine. I’ll think you’re wrong. I’ll probably tell you so. But I won’t tell you you’re a liar or stupid or out to aggrandize yourself. Because it’s possible to be sincerely wrong.
Which is EXACTLY what Mr Cheesy thinks you are. Sincerely wrong. He was explicit about that.
FWIW, after fucking years of listening to this "personal relationship with God" charismatic guff whilst feeling and experiencing approximately the square root of fuck all that's more than faint and transitory and quite possibly nothing at all, going through stages of bewilderment that God appears to love everyone else except you, wondering what you're doing wrong, terror that you're not "in" and are going to burn forever even though you don't know what you did wrong, all because this apparently central experiential "personal relationship" is so so important but so so elusive, I'm not surprised if he feels like taking the concept and pissing on it whilst singing Hallelujah.
He has every right to piss on the concept. You might have noticed that I did my damndest to avoid giving anybody the idea that I thought they ought to, or should, or were required to, or were in any way inferior for not having, the same experience as me.
I bloody bent over backwards to avoid that shit.
And for it I got pissed on by mr cheesy. Not my position. Me.
And that's fucking not on in Purg.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But I honestly do not think this is the entire reason for the Hell call.
I think his take on a sensitive issue contributed the main stock of fuel. Rudeness may have been the spark, but there had to be something in place for the spark to catch.
Thank you for your attempt to be irenic. I cannot speak for the OP, but I can tell absolutely that this is not the case with me.
Purg exists for people to argue against others' positions. I think that is a good and proper thing. And I'm old enough not to have a hissy fit when someone says "I just plain don't believe what you believe."
Because, why should they?
But that's not what got my goat. What got my goat was being called a self-aggrandizing faker and liar--as if I were not honestly reporting the facts as I see them.
I don't do that shit to other people. Several posters on that very thread have made it clear that they can handle themselves with grace and dignity while disagreeing most vehemently with me and those like me. To them much respect.
Mr cheesy is not one of that number.
[ 26. August 2015, 16:50: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think that the idea that bible study is related to spirituality (in the context of the "relationship with God") is one which suggests those who attend a lot of bible studies are more spiritual than those who don't. I believe such points are [usually] made by people who attend a lot of bible studies.
The idea is, I believe, in and of itself a way to suggest that one is more spiritual than the one who doesn't attend said bible studies.
This relates to LC, because she said it. But the point I made (with poor spelling) was directly related to the idea, not directly to the person.
I don't apologise for that. I think it is a deeply insidious and wrong idea.
The deeply insiduous and wrong idea is that people think it's possible to quantify (or even qualify) spirituality, that the idea that one person is more spiritual than another even makes any sort of sense. It doesn't make any difference if the measure used is attendence at Bible studies, attendence at Mass, making a pilgrimage, fasting regularly, volunteering at the soup kitchen or anything else.
And, it certainly doesn't make you more spiritual if you go around telling people that the ways they find work to make them feel closer to God are wrong because they don't work for you. That's as wrong as the people Karl mentioned who made him feel that he wasn't sufficiently spiritual because he wasn't experiencing what they were.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And there you go again. Thanks for calling me a liar.
I'm sorry, I can't continue with these insinuations. At no point did I call you a liar, I just said that the idea you put forward about bible studies is not one I believe in.
Keep shouting to the wall, because this idiot is no longer listening to you.
Over-and-out.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
This relates to LC, because she said it. But the point I made (with poor spelling) was directly related to the idea, not directly to the person.
Bullshit. I said no such thing.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think that the idea that bible study is related to spirituality (in the context of the "relationship with God") is one which suggests those who attend a lot of bible studies are more spiritual than those who don't. I believe such points are [usually] made by people who attend a lot of bible studies.
The idea is, I believe, in and of itself a way to suggest that one is more spiritual than the one who doesn't attend said bible studies.
...
I don't apologise for that. I think it is a deeply insidious and wrong idea.
It is more than that, it is a damned STUPID idea, and I resent the fact that you imported it from god-knows-where and then attributed it to me. As if.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, it certainly doesn't make you more spiritual if you go around telling people that the ways they find work to make them feel closer to God are wrong because they don't work for you. That's as wrong as the people Karl mentioned who made him feel that he wasn't sufficiently spiritual because he wasn't experiencing what they were.
I don't even believe in spirituality in that way. And, as I keep saying, LC is entitled to believe any old shit that she wants to. I think she is wrong - and not because I feel more spiritual or in a relationship closer to God than she is.
Because, I don't believe in that shit.
Funnily enough, I am able to separate intellectual concepts from personal religious experiences. I can accept that she feels that this is her reality, I just think it is bunk.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Bullshit. I said no such thing.
Yes you did:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
ETA: Thinking further, I can't help but notice the strong correlation between focus on the Scriptures and the kind of relationship stuff we've been talking about. It comes out most often and most naturally in those contexts. I don't know how LCMS types stack up against other denominations in terms of engaging with the Bible, but I suspect it's pretty high given the sola Scriptura emphasis.
quote:
It is more than that, it is a damned STUPID idea, and I resent the fact that you imported it from god-knows-where and then attributed it to me. As if.
So WTF did you mean in the quoted section above?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Bullshit. I said no such thing.
Yes you did:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
ETA: Thinking further, I can't help but notice the strong correlation between focus on the Scriptures and the kind of relationship stuff we've been talking about. It comes out most often and most naturally in those contexts. I don't know how LCMS types stack up against other denominations in terms of engaging with the Bible, but I suspect it's pretty high given the sola Scriptura emphasis.
quote:
It is more than that, it is a damned STUPID idea, and I resent the fact that you imported it from god-knows-where and then attributed it to me. As if.
So WTF did you mean in the quoted section above?
I'll let LC explain what she meant (if she wants to). But it's very obvious that she was not talking about a lot of what you claim.
1. No mention of spirituality at all
2. No mention of Bible study groups, let alone frequency of attending such groups
3. No implication that people who study the Bible more are more spiritual (even if that word can be implied in the text quoted as it isn't explicitely mentioned).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I meant what I fucking said. That the LCMS has a strong focus on the Bible, and that I suspect a correlation between groups that focus strongly on the Bible and those that talk about spiritual experiences and relationships. Nothing more nor less than that.
I said fuck-all about Bible study attenders being more spiritual, or holier, or better-than-thou, or any of that shit. In fact an atheist could have made the same observation, though an unfriendly atheist might have phrased it “groups that focus on the Bible are the same freaks that spend so much time talking relationship twaddle.”
Strip it of the emotional verbiage, and it’s the same fucking observation. How you got “we’re holier than thou” from it, I’ll never know.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Bullshit. I said no such thing.
Yes you did:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
ETA: Thinking further, I can't help but notice the strong correlation between focus on the Scriptures and the kind of relationship stuff we've been talking about. It comes out most often and most naturally in those contexts. I don't know how LCMS types stack up against other denominations in terms of engaging with the Bible, but I suspect it's pretty high given the sola Scriptura emphasis.
quote:
It is more than that, it is a damned STUPID idea, and I resent the fact that you imported it from god-knows-where and then attributed it to me. As if.
So WTF did you mean in the quoted section above?
Thank you for quoting Lamb here. Because it should be very clear that what she said as quoted above is not at all this:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think that the idea that bible study is related to spirituality (in the context of the "relationship with God") is one which suggests those who attend a lot of bible studies are more spiritual than those who don't. I believe such points are [usually] made by people who attend a lot of bible studies.
The idea is, I believe, in and of itself a way to suggest that one is more spiritual than the one who doesn't attend said bible studies.
This relates to LC, because she said it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Right, in that case I was reacting to an idea you were not putting across, for which I apologise.
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Funnily enough, I am able to separate intellectual concepts from personal religious experiences.
For my money, you're not able to do this nearly as well as you think.
The concepts you're expressing here are, in my analysis, deeply affected by your personal religious experience, or lack of it, and the spiritual/ecclesiastical environment in which you've had to work through that disconnect.
If I'm anywhere near the mark, that sucks, and yes it is an indictment on some forms of evangelicalism inter alia.
But it affects your attitude to everyone else, and not in a good way.
[ 26. August 2015, 17:16: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
And when am I supposed to have posted anything about demons, or shied away from questions?
You didn't. Pomona did -
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
However if it is - true conversion comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is not just about 'knowing Jesus'. Demons know who Jesus is (not saying these people are demons), it's more than that. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit somehow leaves people, so I would say that these are not true conversions.
After I had asked -
quote:
How about those who have had this experience, this sure knowledge (knowing Jesus) and now realise it was more than likely a form of wishful thinking/group psychology/false hope/mistaken belief/delusion? Those who were thoroughly converted but now think otherwise?
In other words people like me were never truly converted and (just like the 'demons') knew Jesus some other way.
I see it as something psychological - a 'group think' thing I went through, and came out the other side reasonable unharmed - she sees it as something else (I didn't ask what).
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
It has been my experience (and I have a lot of experience because I am old) that people hear what they are anticipating they will hear; no matter what actually might been said.
In this case, no matter what might have been written.
It is a very human thing to do and I know that I am guilty of it on numerous occasions. For me it is when my ego takes over and I forget my need to be humble.
When I catch myself at it I (try to) remind myself that I am better off experiencing reality than what my ego and emotions tell me to experience. When I get humble I learn. When my ego takes charge and filters, I don't learn - unless you count the hard knocks that tend to occur.
Mind you, when I get angry I filter just as rampantly as I do when my ego takes charge. Probably because anger and ego are so intimately connected.
I don't know why this comes to mind here.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I have to admit that I first interpreted LC's paragraph in the way mr cheesy read it. I think it's a grammar thing.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I have to admit that I first interpreted LC's paragraph in the way mr cheesy read it. I think it's a grammar thing.
I think if you read this post slightly earlier in the thread it somewhat primes you to make that inference.
Again, talking about God choosing to communicate with some sub-group of people in a certain way does not literally assert spiritual superiority - but echos of a thousand other statements including the words God and chosen will prime the reader for that inference.
To a certain extent I think writers need to be aware of very strong/obvious echoes in phraseology. Or have less cause to complain when the reader incorporates them.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
It has been my experience (and I have a lot of experience because I am old) that people hear what they are anticipating they will hear; no matter what actually might been said.
In this case, no matter what might have been written.
It is a very human thing to do and I know that I am guilty of it on numerous occasions. For me it is when my ego takes over and I forget my need to be humble.
When I catch myself at it I (try to) remind myself that I am better off experiencing reality than what my ego and emotions tell me to experience. When I get humble I learn. When my ego takes charge and filters, I don't learn - unless you count the hard knocks that tend to occur.
Mind you, when I get angry I filter just as rampantly as I do when my ego takes charge. Probably because anger and ego are so intimately connected.
I don't know why this comes to mind here.
This strikes me as a particularly astute (and un-hellishly humble) insight into precisely what happened on the thread in question. We would all, myself very much included, do well to take a step back and consider Tortuf's apt analysis.
I won't apologize for my own tendency to go off the rails in this regard here because well, that wouldn't be very hellish, would it? But somewhere else I will.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Apologies are allowed in Hell.
As are group hugs.
Just don't get it all over the carpet.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think that the idea that bible study is related to spirituality (in the context of the "relationship with God") is one which suggests those who attend a lot of bible studies are more spiritual than those who don't.
This is such shoddy reasoning I wonder you're not ashamed to post it. You might as well say that because my wine club is about wine, it means its members think they know more about wine than people who aren't in wine clubs. Or because my amateur astronomy club claims to be about astronomy, we must perforce think we know more about astronomy than people who aren't in amateur astronomy clubs.
This is bullshit logic, and you should be ashamed.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think that the idea that bible study is related to spirituality (in the context of the "relationship with God") is one which suggests those who attend a lot of bible studies are more spiritual than those who don't.
This is such shoddy reasoning I wonder you're not ashamed to post it. You might as well say that because my wine club is about wine, it means its members think they know more about wine than people who aren't in wine clubs. Or because my amateur astronomy club claims to be about astronomy, we must perforce think we know more about astronomy than people who aren't in amateur astronomy clubs.
This is bullshit logic, and you should be ashamed.
Indeed, it strikes me that the very reason that many people join a Bible study, wine club, astronomy club, book club is precisely because they don't think they know as much as they would like about the subject and wish to learn so in the company of others on a similar quest.
That being said, it seems to me that Mr C has now apologized for that infraction and LC has accepted so we should all probably let it go now as well. Even in hell.
[ 27. August 2015, 00:15: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Indeed, it strikes me that the very reason that many people join a Bible study, wine club, astronomy club, book club is precisely because they don't think they know as much as they would like about the subject and wish to learn so in the company of others on a similar quest.
Well, ISTM not all will be there to learn. There will be some attending to be with like minds, learning no required and some there to impart their "wisdom". It make no more sense to say there will be none who think they have superior knowledge than to say all will be so.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
yep. that's why I said "many" rather than "all".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
yep. that's why I said "many" rather than "all".
Ooops, apologies, missed that word.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's fine rhetoric mr cheesy. True too.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And, fucking Lamb fucking Chopped, fucking glad to fucking hear fucking it.
[ 27. August 2015, 20:34: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
FWIW, after fucking years of listening to this "personal relationship with God" charismatic guff whilst feeling and experiencing approximately the square root of fuck all that's more than faint and transitory and quite possibly nothing at all, going through stages of bewilderment that God appears to love everyone else except you, wondering what you're doing wrong, terror that you're not "in" and are going to burn forever even though you don't know what you did wrong, all because this apparently central experiential "personal relationship" is so so important but so so elusive, I'm not surprised if he feels like taking the concept and pissing on it whilst singing Hallelujah.
It's not so bad if you leave the 'personal' bit out, and just say that you have a 'relationship with God/Jesus'. I think nearly all Christians would claim to have relationship with the divine.
Of course, it's not quite the same thing as a personal relationship with God and/or Jesus, but I think it's good enough for most of us. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Not sure the "relationship" language resonates with me at all.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
My relationship with the Divine is in hearing myself talk down a telephone with a one way signal to THE Listener. An ardent, infinitely wise, good willed (who wishes me NO ill, NO shame, NO condemnation), kind, fully passively encouraging, understanding, fully focussed, friendly, intimate, all knowing, empathic, gracious listener who has NEVER directly communicated with me or anyone I know or ever will in any way, internally or externally, willing me to work it all out as emotionally intelligently as an aging emotional cripple.
I KNOW He's there. Here. Now. For me. For us ALL. As Father, Brother, friend, Lord, mate, Gelert of fire (remember Him?). Whatever IMAGE I like and need.
Driving home facing west at 7:25 with Trisha Yearwood singing On A Bus To St. Cloud with an awesome sky. A towering cumulus with a ray seared ragged edge. Memories, loss and yearning which can never be re-filled, re-lived right, in this life on the slope of inevitable ruin. Wanting to capture the sky for a wall. Realising that we WILL have practically infinite and infinitesimal capacities beyond our wildest waking dreams. Walking along the beach with our young grandparents and they with theirs, without any alienation or lust. And all the dogs. And Jackie Norton. The little cat I sat on.
Imag[e]-ine, eh?
I should apologize I'm sure. For not being infernal. Although for some it interminably cringe-makingly is I'm sure. Sod you.
Jackie Norton survived, twitchy, but we had to give her to Wood Green when we lost our house, before we lost each other.
ALL will be well.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I have a relationship with the chair I'm sitting on. I'm being supported by it; it supports me. I have no problem with relationship language when you remove the "personal" from it. I don't have a personal relationship with my car. But I have a relationship with it: that of ownership. And so forth. I think people hear "relationship" and automatically smuggle "personal" into their understanding of it. It's how we mostly use the term. But it has a very clear, historical meaning that is not personal. And I can dig that vis-a-vis God.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Example of non-personal relationship with God: that of creator/created.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
YESSS! And the very rare exceptions that you list, mythical though at least one is (Adam) and if there were historical people behind the myths (Abraham, Joseph, Moses) their stories are mythic (one of my favourites: under the Terebinth trees at Mamre), prove the rule. As for the judges and prophets, whatever broke through them was garbled in transmission, the medium swamped the message (Samuel), although it got better (Jonah, Micah).
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
So mousethief, are you then disagreeing with other posters who say that the personal language of "father" etc from NT times implies this kind of "personal" relationship with the divine?
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Example of non-personal relationship with God: that of creator/created.
Yes, but it's purely academic. It doesn't seem to be saying anything that isn't said by God being creator and my being a created being.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't think I really have a relationship with my chair. I think that is quite a contraction of the term anyway - I relate to it and it relates to me, for sure. But then every oxygen atom in the atmosphere relates to me to some extend, as does everything else.
Are we implying that the word relationship is to do with proximity?
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arse
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
"Relate" is an incredibly flexible word, and it gets used a lot by me in my job for precisely that reason. I wouldn't waste your time trying to nail it down. All it means is that there's some form of connection. It doesn't connote on its own the kind of connection.
Close relationship, personal relationship, open relationship, strained relationship, tenuous relationship, supportive relationship (with your chair), controlling relationship etc etc etc etc.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So mousethief, are you then disagreeing with other posters who say that the personal language of "father" etc from NT times implies this kind of "personal" relationship with the divine?
Yes and no. It depends entirely on what you mean by "personal" relationship. If someone's being my father is a "personal" relationship merely by fact of their being my father, then I could have been adopted at birth and by your definition I'd have a "personal" relationship with someone I've never met. If that's what you mean by "personal relationship" then yes, we all have a personal relationship with God, don't we? Which is meaningless. The "personal" language you cite doesn't imply the "personal" relationship the way that term is used in modern times.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Example of non-personal relationship with God: that of creator/created.
Yes, but it's purely academic. It doesn't seem to be saying anything that isn't said by God being creator and my being a created being.
No, of course not. It's two ways of saying the same thing. Why do you say this as if I don't realize this? What are you adding to the conversation thereby?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The "personal" language you cite doesn't imply the "personal" relationship the way that term is used in modern times.
I agree.
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arse
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