Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Germanwings disaster and the (inexcusable) modern desire to go out with a bang
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
Do you suppose that legislation will be passed to prevent pilots from leaving the cockpit for a loo break? I think the flight was supposed to be a little over two hours.
Or does the tension of take off (and landing) put pressures on any pilot?
-------------------- If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't know how accurate it is, but I hear that on some flights there is a toilet in the cockpit.
-------------------- arse
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: Take the Google definition. Explain to me how this act qualifies.
It never is, though, is it. Brevik was a closet Muslim (according to some), McVeigh was a lone fruitcake, blahdiblah.
If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
You can assume that here on the Ship you're talking to rational people who consider Breivik and McVeigh being capable of answering the description of 'terrorist'.
None of which makes Lubitz a terrorist. You speculated that what had been found in his house was political. If that speculation had proven correct, you might have been on to something, but I don't understand why you are still persisting in this line of argument given that all the reports are that what was found wasn't political at all, but medical.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Rogue: Do you suppose that legislation will be passed to prevent pilots from leaving the cockpit for a loo break? I think the flight was supposed to be a little over two hours.
Or does the tension of take off (and landing) put pressures on any pilot?
It is much more likely that all airlines will make it standard operating practice (some already do) that if one of the pilots leaves the cockpit, another crew member will go in, so that there are always two people in the cockpit.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Rogue: Do you suppose that legislation will be passed to prevent pilots from leaving the cockpit for a loo break? I think the flight was supposed to be a little over two hours.
Or does the tension of take off (and landing) put pressures on any pilot?
If you are a pilot on a low cost carrier, the turnaround time - often around 40 minutes - is so short that it's often considered better to go to the loo just after the takeoff climb, when you don't have entering/exiting passengers/cleaners/takeoff preparation to deal with.
Middle eastern carriers such as El Al already have a dedicated pilot loo, but this is unlikely to spread because it would mean removing pa$$enger $eating.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
That might be so, but that doesn't mean it would be correct to do so.
The word 'terrorist' is thrown around to mean any violent act by people we don't like with darker skins than ours, true. But it does have a more precise meaning, and that more precise meaning does require that the action is aimed, however unrealistically, at bringing about some political change. Locking yourself in a cabin and not saying anything as you kill yourself and everyone else on the plane doesn't bring about any political change, unless I suppose the aim is to reduce carbon emissions from air travel.
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by stonespring: I really like watching my world-ending-explosions, superheroes destroying cities while they battle bad guys ...and pew-pew-pew-bodies-falling-everywhere action movies. And I LOVE hitting the shoot button as fast as I can with a video game controller...
I think that the temptation to cause mass destruction...is something we all have gnawing at us in the back of our minds,
No. Not at all. I hate those "action" movies, detest those video games, and have zero interest in causing mass destruction. Even as a kid when the closest to "action" movies was slapstick comedy I hated watching people get hurt, even in cartoons I winced when Roadrunner or his "enemy" ran off a cliff.
A friend who likes "action"movies says he enjoys them because they are "cartoonish", i.e. precisely because they are not real. That's the opposite of enjoying them as some sort of wish fulfillment.
As to what goes on in a suicidal mind, I read somewhere that a large percentage of head-on collisions are suicides. From my limited experience with suicidal depression I doubt many of the highway suicidals were looking for opportunity to take others with them. Focus of awareness narrows to self and the pain and the need to escape.
Now I will cheerfully get utterly speculative - if flying is what he always dreamed of doing, and if he saw the doctor's note as a threat to his being able to fly in the future, if he saw himself facing a bleak empty future deprived of all his dreams, that could cause a desire to take one last flight and end it all, never have to walk away from that flight into nothing. But the goal would not be to harm others, in deep suicidal pain others aren't really in awareness (nor are heaven or hell), even if the others are banging on the door or screaming. The pain and need to end it is louder.
But do we know what the doctor's note was about? Maybe he just had a ear infection,it's often unwise to fly with that condition, it can damage the ear drum.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: Middle eastern carriers such as El Al already have a dedicated pilot loo, but this is unlikely to spread because it would mean removing pa$$enger $eating.
They could always get one of these (female versions are available too), unless the pilot needed to do something more serious.
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: .... As to what goes on in a suicidal mind, I read somewhere that a large percentage of head-on collisions are suicides. From my limited experience with suicidal depression I doubt many of the highway suicidals were looking for opportunity to take others with them. Focus of awareness narrows to self and the pain and the need to escape.
Now I will cheerfully get utterly speculative - if flying is what he always dreamed of doing, and if he saw the doctor's note as a threat to his being able to fly in the future, if he saw himself facing a bleak empty future deprived of all his dreams, that could cause a desire to take one last flight and end it all, never have to walk away from that flight into nothing. But the goal would not be to harm others, in deep suicidal pain others aren't really in awareness (nor are heaven or hell), even if the others are banging on the door or screaming. The pain and need to end it is louder.
But do we know what the doctor's note was about? Maybe he just had a ear infection,it's often unwise to fly with that condition, it can damage the ear drum.
Since we have no idea why, since so far as we know this man has made no attempt to leave behind a message telling everyone why he was going to do something so wicked, and since none of the reasons suggested so far would, if found to be true, have made this any more rational or less wicked, is there any point in speculating? Is there any prospect of it giving us anything of benefit?
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dafyd: quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
That might be so, but that doesn't mean it would be correct to do so.
The word 'terrorist' is thrown around to mean any violent act by people we don't like with darker skins than ours, true.
Yes, although you could also add that the population of the UK is generally pretty aware, sadly, of the very real possibility of a terrorist also being the holy trinity of white, Christian and British (although some of them would have rejected the last label obviously).
I still remember asking my mum in about 1986 why none of the railway stations we passed through ever seemed to have litter bins. It wasn't the "foreign-looking" ones we were worried about...
-------------------- And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: Deliberately flying a plane into a mountain (if that is what happened) is clearly murder, and arguably terrorism. Whatever his mental health was at the time does not change that.
Under UK law at any rate, yes the state of Lubitz's mental health does change the name of the crime. I am surprised that the word manslaughter has not been used at all on this thread so far.
I believe studies have shown that doctors, vets and farmers are the occupations most likely to commit suicide. because they have easy access to the means. What is the obvious way for a pilot to kill himself? Depression does make one very self-centred and, hard as it may be for those lucky enough not to have had direct experience of mental illness to understand, I can easily imagine that the fate of the other 149 people on board would not matter to him. Of course he knew that they would die as well but, presumably, he did not care. Whether that means he was "culpable" in a legal sense or not, I am not qualified to say.
-------------------- "Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I would think that mental health considerations could rule out murder, well, this happens in English courts. But of course, it's very difficult with someone now dead.
In fact, it's possible to be unfit to be questioned by police, in English law, either for physical or psychological reasons.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by betjemaniac: I still remember asking my mum in about 1986 why none of the railway stations we passed through ever seemed to have litter bins. It wasn't the "foreign-looking" ones we were worried about...
I'd be intrigued to know what makes a litter bin look "foreign" ...
(Sorry, I couldn't resist posting that, even though I know this is a deeply serious thread. Non-Brits may need to know that many litter bins were removed from railway stations and other public places following IRA attacks at places such as Warrington and London's Victoria station, where bombs were placed in bins and exploded with devastating effects). [ 27. March 2015, 16:27: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: Take the Google definition. Explain to me how this act qualifies.
It never is, though, is it. Brevik was a closet Muslim (according to some), McVeigh was a lone fruitcake, blahdiblah.
If this guy had been slightly foreign-looking, we'd be looking for a convenient country to bomb in retaliation.
You can assume that here on the Ship you're talking to rational people who consider Breivik and McVeigh being capable of answering the description of 'terrorist'.
None of which makes Lubitz a terrorist. You speculated that what had been found in his house was political. If that speculation had proven correct, you might have been on to something, but I don't understand why you are still persisting in this line of argument given that all the reports are that what was found wasn't political at all, but medical.
Press are reporting that what were found in his house, were torn up sick notes. (So had not told employer the doctor felt he was unfit to fly, illness involved has not been specified.)
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: Now I will cheerfully get utterly speculative - if flying is what he always dreamed of doing, and if he saw the doctor's note as a threat to his being able to fly in the future, if he saw himself facing a bleak empty future deprived of all his dreams, that could cause a desire to take one last flight and end it all, never have to walk away from that flight into nothing. But the goal would not be to harm others, in deep suicidal pain others aren't really in awareness (nor are heaven or hell), even if the others are banging on the door or screaming. The pain and need to end it is louder.
Yes, This was at the back of my mind when I wrote my earlier comment about fear of losing his job.
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus:
If you are a pilot on a low cost carrier, the turnaround time - often around 40 minutes - is so short that it's often considered better to go to the loo just after the takeoff climb, when you don't have entering/exiting passengers/cleaners/takeoff preparation to deal with.
During the 30 minutes on the ground the pilot who landed the plane does the walk-around safety check of the plane, which takes about 20 minutes of the time. Then follows preparation for take off. I agree - loo breaks are usually taken in the air. [ 27. March 2015, 18:20: Message edited by: Boogie ]
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by IngoB: quote: Originally posted by BroJames: This pushing back is designed to be used to deny keycode access for five minutes at a time.
Interesting. Do we know how long the plane took to dive towards the crash?
Yes. Following BroJames helpful links, I got that far and realised that the lock mechanism would have had to be engaged twice before the plane crashed. Which seems to confirm deliberate action and rule out any kind of accident.
The other thought which occurred to me after looking at the videos was that the two sets of information may not be contradictory. There may be an emergency measure which enables the lock to be engaged indefinitely, not just for five minutes, by lifting and pushing into place, as the original Sky News item suggested. Or the Sky item could simply have been wrong.
It's moot now. Deliberate engagement of the lock (by either means) is pretty much proven by the audio record showing the descent time of more than five minutes (8-10 as Eutychus indicated). [ 27. March 2015, 19:25: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: ...in deep suicidal pain others aren't really in awareness even if the others are banging on the door or screaming. The pain and need to end it is louder.
...no attempt to leave behind a message telling everyone why he was going to do something so wicked, and since none of the reasons suggested so far would, if found to be true, have made this any more rational or less wicked....
The word "wicked"intrigues me.
In swimming life saver lessons, we are warned that a drowning man will try to climb on top of you, with the effect of pushing you under water and you both drown.
The person in trouble is not seeking to kill you, what he sees is "something above water, if I climb on it I'm saved!" He does not see "a person I will endanger if I try to climb on him."
Is pushing the rescuer under water "wicked" when it is mere instinct to try to save oneself by climbing onto anything above water?
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
I think of the word wicked as a judgment of someone's intentionally chosen moral value system. "I'll kill a few dozen people for my own amusement" is wicked. Is trying to end your own overwhelming pain "wicked" when harming others is not a goal, not desired, not sought, the actor is not even aware of them, he knows only his pain?
Wicked in the fallen world sense, yes; but wicked in the personal moral responsibility sense, can we demand awareness of that which pain is blocking awareness of?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
One thing did strike me about this. He chose to hit an empty mountain, not a town or a city.
It is still very disturbing, though. Breathing normally up to the impact is very strange.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
Such pain should cause one to seek help - not take others down with you.
To take others with you is wicked in the extreme. I still can't get over the idea that he didn't seem to give his own family one thought. They will never be able to live normally again.
If he couldn't think of his passengers, surely he could think of his own family?
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
Such pain should cause one to seek help - not take others down with you.
To take others with you is wicked in the extreme. I still can't get over the idea that he didn't seem to give his own family one thought. They will never be able to live normally again.
If he couldn't think of his passengers, surely he could think of his own family?
Boogie,
If he was that depressed that he was suicidal then no, he probably couldn't. If he could think of his family, he presumably thought they would be better off without him. (If you didn't have to have that conversation with Mr B, then I envy you.)
Moo has posted here about her time at the Samaritans, that a tactic that was sometimes effective was to ask the caller who they thought would find them and what they (the finder) would feel. But the person considering suicide had to be asked that - it did not to occur to them unprompted.
-------------------- "Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
Such pain should cause one to seek help - not take others down with you.
To take others with you is wicked in the extreme. I still can't get over the idea that he didn't seem to give his own family one thought. They will never be able to live normally again.
If he couldn't think of his passengers, surely he could think of his own family?
Every person who commits suicide leaves behind a wake of broken people-- a family who are left with horrible questions and lifelong pain. It's not that the suicidal person doesn't care about those left behind--it's that they are not in a place where they can follow the rational train of thought you are laying out. Suicide (other than, say, a euthanasia-type situation) is not a rational choice-- it's a desperate, anguished, irrational act. To call that "wicked"is to pile on to that anguish. And ultimately, it only makes those who suffer in this way less likely to get the help they need and thus avoid this sort of tragedy in the future.
It seems to be a natural response to any sort of tragedy to think "how could this have been prevented"? And often it is a good one--leading to needed changes in safety or security or whatever. And in this case, there may be a few tweaks that can be made to airline security/cockpit features/bathroom breaks that will be useful. More useful would be a healthy discussion about mental health care and funding for it. But ultimately we also have to realize that this is the sort of thing that can't be completely avoided. You can't stop someone from driving on the train tracks, causing a derailment that kills dozens-- or any of a 100 other ways that a suicidal person might take others down along with them. That's part of the fragility of life.
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Keep in mind that if you are a pilot, you really can't acknowledge any issues with depression. When you do, you sabotage your career - either by being put off because you are depressed or being put off because you are taking medication that can't be taken while flying. It is exceptionally rare for someone to go off for treatment and come back.
-------------------- Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Penny S: One thing did strike me about this. He chose to hit an empty mountain, not a town or a city.
Was this his choice? I had the impression that they just happened to be above the Alps when they reached cruising altitude. In any case, I think a minor part of the surface area is covered with cities and towns.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's premature, surely, to talk about wickedness. He may have had a psychotic breakdown, or other mental aberration. Somebody in that state is not making moral evaluations.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
Anyone like to lay odds on whether or not he was pumped full of psychotropic drugs?
-------------------- "You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by romanlion: Anyone like to lay odds on whether or not he was pumped full of psychotropic drugs?
I'm sure someone would.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
An interesting point raised in the OP is whether or not it is becoming more common for a suicider to take others with them. I suspect not. Whilst technologies and belief systems have changed, I think basic human motivations have remained much the same.
Historically, of course, there are records of lots of people taking others with them to the grave. Sometimes this took the form of the human sacrifice of retainers and slaves to follow a deceased king to the afterlife; but sometimes a person who is going to die acts to ensure that others come with him (or her, but it seems mainly to be him).
There are examples in history of leaders who knowingly (or recklessly) take others with them to die: Custer and Hitler had their own versions of the Gotterdammerung, just the latter was on a national scale.
Some of these willingly lead others into death: I would agree with IngoB that these people are mass murderers. Others are reckless and uncaring: ditto, both morally and legally. Those who are so depressed that they are unaware of the consequences of their actions, may have a lower level of moral culpability.
Mass murder is evil. If there is a lower level of moral culpability, could we still call it evil? I am inclined to think we can, but would like to hear the views of others.
-------------------- 'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
In a sermon I heard once, an RC priest said that, in order to be guilty of sin, 3 things have to be true:
1) You have to know the thing you intend to do is wrong;
2) You have to intend to do something wrong;
3) You have to have another option.
So while a person might do something evil, they might not be guilty of sin for doing it.
Don't know what might apply, if the co-pilot did do this thing.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: You can't stop someone from driving on the train tracks, causing a derailment that kills dozens-- or any of a 100 other ways that a suicidal person might take others down along with them. That's part of the fragility of life.
Yes, fair point.
And - to put it in perspective, an Airbus A320 takes off every three seconds worldwide. It's a very safe way to travel. We are in far, far more danger driving to the airport.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: quote: Originally posted by romanlion: Anyone like to lay odds on whether or not he was pumped full of psychotropic drugs?
I'm sure someone would.
I wouldn't. The clinic he attended seems to have been very careful in its words, stating (as I remember) that he had been there for consultations or investigations, but not that he was under treatment.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There is a report, which I treat with caution, that Lubitz told an ex-girlfriend last year that one day everyone would know his name, and that he was going to do something that would change the whole system.
Of course, there's the risk of interpreting whatever he might have said in a particular light given what's happened, but it does at least raise the possibility that he had contemplated a dramatic exit for some time.
I thought it was pertinent to this thread given the OP.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I was just about to post that - you beat me to it!
I agree that it should be treated with caution at this stage. [ 28. March 2015, 08:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
I suspect that most of us at some point have wanted to be well known and/or change the system.
-------------------- If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yes, that could be all sorts of things--even politics.
Example: Arnold Schwarzenegger, when he was back in Austria, set out a very definite plan for himself: go to America, marry a Kennedy, and a couple of other things--maybe both get famous and go into politics. He did all of that. I'm not a fan, and I loathe some of his behavior. But he did accomplish what he set out to do. Fortunately, he couldn't run for president. (Have to be born a citizen.)
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Whether trying to save oneself from death or from life, I question the word "wicked" when the only goal is to escape pain, and the pain blocks awareness of other people.
Such pain should cause one to seek help - not take others down with you.
To take others with you is wicked in the extreme. I still can't get over the idea that he didn't seem to give his own family one thought. They will never be able to live normally again.
If he couldn't think of his passengers, surely he could think of his own family?
I can't see the evidence that he did something deliberate.
The evidence we have is that - The pilot was locked out of the cockpit
- No sound from inside the cockpit other than breathing was on the flight recorder
- The co-pilot tore up a sick note which meant he should not have been working.
What I have nor seen reported is the nature of the sickness: Was it for a mental condition or physical condition? Would it have been likely to result in psychotic behaviour, or was it a condition that could have resulted in unconsciousness or seizure?
"Co-pilot flew plane into mountain," is only one of two possibilities I have seen. The other one, "Co-pilot was unconscious and unable to let the pilot back into the cockpit," is another.
I have not seen what I call evidence that the crash was deliberate. In cases like this I take the side of innocent until proven guilty Especially when the person is unable to defend himself.
So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
-------------------- Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I don't think it is premature to talk of wickedness. On what is emerging, we are left at the moment with a strong presumption that this was a wicked act. It may be that there is some other explanation, but it's looking very unlikely.
e.g. if one uses Golden Key's test quote: 1) You have to know the thing you intend to do is wrong;
2) You have to intend to do something wrong;
3) You have to have another option.
And remembering the basic principle that a person is presumed to intend the natural consequences of their action:- 1. It is as good as impossible for a person to argue that they didn't know that flying an aeroplane with a whole lot of passengers into a mountain and killing them is wrong.
2. He appears to have intended to do that.
3. He had another option. It was not to have done it. That is to have continued to fly the aeroplane to its destination. That is what he was employed to do and what everyone would have assumed he was going to do.
If we add to that the suggestion, admittedly still conjecture at the moment, that he 'wanted to do something that would ensure everyone remembered him', that makes his motivation even more self-evidently bad.
At the moment, I can't see any other valid interpretation.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by balaam: So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: 1. It is as good as impossible for a person to argue that they didn't know that flying an aeroplane with a whole lot of passengers into a mountain and killing them is wrong.
It is perfectly possible for someone with a mental illness to not know that, especially a psychosis. When you are psychotic you do not fully understand the implications of what you are doing or why.
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dave W.: If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
I understand, anyway, that the door code would have reset itself after 5 minutes, allowing entry. That means he had had to engage the lock from the cockpit a second time.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: I don't think it is premature to talk of wickedness. On what is emerging, we are left at the moment with a strong presumption that this was a wicked act. It may be that there is some other explanation, but it's looking very unlikely.
e.g. if one uses Golden Key's test quote: 1) You have to know the thing you intend to do is wrong;
2) You have to intend to do something wrong;
3) You have to have another option.
And remembering the basic principle that a person is presumed to intend the natural consequences of their action:- 1. It is as good as impossible for a person to argue that they didn't know that flying an aeroplane with a whole lot of passengers into a mountain and killing them is wrong.
2. He appears to have intended to do that.
3. He had another option. It was not to have done it. That is to have continued to fly the aeroplane to its destination. That is what he was employed to do and what everyone would have assumed he was going to do.
If we add to that the suggestion, admittedly still conjecture at the moment, that he 'wanted to do something that would ensure everyone remembered him', that makes his motivation even more self-evidently bad.
At the moment, I can't see any other valid interpretation.
As has been noted already, if the co-pilot was suffering from severe clinical depression or some form of psychotic break, he may not have been able to rationally assess the impact of his actions, putting all three of the criteria in question. Again, to call it "wicked" under those circumstances can only further isolate and marginalize those we most need to help if we are to prevent future tragedies.
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
True but someone psychotic enough not to know the nature and quality of the act would be too chaotic and obviously I'll to get onto an aircraft without being stopped.
A delusional belief the act was somehow justified, a sacrifice to save the world or a last ditch attempt to stop the plane being used as a weapon for example, would be the most likely out working.
Though of course most people with psychosis do not pose a risk to others.
The majority of violent crime is committed by people who are well.
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
Does it matter wether he was wicked/a murderer/a manslaughterer or anything else? He's dead and beyond any human reaction.
Support his family and friends, support the families and friends of all the others who died, learn any lessons and move on.
-------------------- If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dave W.: quote: Originally posted by balaam: So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
In theory sabotage, of software controlling the plan - a gas. Anister hidden in the cockpit triggered by a sensor that indi aged only one person present - of by location on flight route and single personhood as a coincidence.
But I think it most unlikely.
-------------------- All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Maybe the door security system malfunctioned?
What if the pilot repeatedly punched the wrong codes in the door?
And this is bizarre, I know...but what if the *pilot* had done something before going out the door, and the co-pilot was afraid to let him back in?
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dave W.: quote: Originally posted by balaam: So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
We are assuming the code was activated.
I have looked around and there is evidence that Lubitz had a mental disorder, but no evidence yet of what the disorder was: Would it have caused behavioural problems or blackouts?
Lubitz is not without blame. He should not have been flying the plane. The nature of the mental condition is known. The sick note has been recovered. But we will not know what it was until the investigators release the details; they will have a good reason for not releasing it yet.
Until they do we, and the press, are just speculating about the most likely cause. Which deliberate crashing is. But it is still speculation.
-------------------- Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Maybe the door security system malfunctioned?
What if the pilot repeatedly punched the wrong codes in the door?
And this is bizarre, I know...but what if the *pilot* had done something before going out the door, and the co-pilot was afraid to let him back in?
If any or all of that had happened, I doubt that the co-pilot would have spent the next ten minutes in silence (except for his breathing) -- unless the pilot knocked him unconscious before leaving.
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by balaam: quote: Originally posted by Dave W.: quote: Originally posted by balaam: So what evidence do those taking the Lubitz is wicked line have that he was conscious? Unconscious and breathing seems to fit here too.
If he was unconscious, how did he disable the emergency door entry code (which is specifically intended for use in cases of crew incapacitation) and reset the autopilot to take the plane from 38000 to 100 feet?
We are assuming the code was activated.
That should be evident from the cockpit voice recording; if it was, a buzzer would have sounded. French prosecutors who have heard the recording concluded that the copilot deliberately kept the pilot locked out and reset the autopilot to descend.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doublethink.: True but someone psychotic enough not to know the nature and quality of the act would be too chaotic and obviously I'll to get onto an aircraft without being stopped.
A delusional belief the act was somehow justified, a sacrifice to save the world or a last ditch attempt to stop the plane being used as a weapon for example, would be the most likely out working.
Though of course most people with psychosis do not pose a risk to others.
The majority of violent crime is committed by people who are well.
Good point about psychosis; there are hints to me of the 'dark triad', but we are guessing really. Information about him may well be useful, if there are suggestions of narcissism and/or psychopathy. The other member of the triad is Machiavellianism.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
At what point - if ever - do we blame supernatural evil? Not just the contingent, emergent evil of physically embodied mental existence. Which seems sufficient to explain such aberrant horrors.
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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