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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Germanwings disaster and the (inexcusable) modern desire to go out with a bang
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
At what point - if ever - do we blame supernatural evil? Not just the contingent, emergent evil of physically embodied mental existence. Which seems sufficient to explain such aberrant horrors.
You're baiting me, aren't you, my friend?
You know my thoughts: that creation was corrupted by Satan, leading to the suffering and brokenness we experience in the world today. Part of that suffering and brokenness is indeed mental illness and the consequences of that.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
"Co-pilot flew plane into mountain," is only one of two possibilities I have seen. The other one, "Co-pilot was unconscious and unable to let the pilot back into the cockpit," is another.
Have you missed the fact that deliberate action was required to PREVENT the pilot getting back into the cockpit? There is an access code.
Unless you think the access code mechanism managed to malfunction at precisely the same time the co-pilot became incapacitated. For no apparent reason.
At some point Occam's razor is going to have to come into play here. Sure, you can dream all sorts of extraordinary combinations of events to arrive at the result, but which is more likely: a conscious man preventing the door being opened, or a man being inexplicably unconscious at the same time as the door mechanism inexplicably fails, which manages to be at one of the relatively rare times there is only one person in the cockpit?
[ 28. March 2015, 20:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I'd agree about creation being corrupted.
More information, this time from the New York Times:
Lubitz was taking medication for depression, but it was not this that made him unsuitable to fly, but vision problems.
But note the NYT Talks about the apparent deliberate crashing. I'm waiting for the investigators or an inquest to say the crashing was deliberate and not just th prosecutors.
This news of a vision problem raises more problems than it answers.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
3. He had another option. It was not to have done it. That is to have continued to fly the aeroplane to its destination. That is what he was employed to do and what everyone would have assumed he was going to do.
If the guy was truly in the depths os of despair, this might not have been as obvious him as it is to you. I seem to recall reading somewhere about some bloke who said something along the lines of "Judge not, that ye be not judged"...
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Now seems a good time to mention that pilot suicide of this kind isn't unheard of or extraordinary. It's just that we don't get media saturation when it happens in other parts of the world.
In fact, the crash in Namibia involved exactly the same scenario, with one pilot locking the other one out.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I'm waiting for the investigators or an inquest to say the crashing was deliberate and not just th prosecutors.
How exactly is it that you can accept all the evidence that comes from the prosecutors, but not their conclusions about the evidence?
I mean, you're debating with people why the pilot couldn't get into the cockpit. But why are you even accepting that the pilot was outside the cockpit and couldn't get in?
The source of that information which you accept is exactly the same source that supplied the conclusion that you don't accept.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Figbash
The Doubtful Guest
# 9048
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Posted
After a quick look at this thread, I see a common trend is what one might summarise as 'depression has nothing to do with it, even if you're depressed you know the difference between right and wrong, and it was wrong to deliberately kill all those people'. This is, I feel, very simplistic, and does not take fully into account the experience of deep depression.
I felt it might be useful to add a perspective of my own, given that I have, on a number of occasions, during deep depression, very nearly reached the point of no return, stepping back, in at least one case, when on the brink of terminal action.
So, first thing: part of deep depression is that you become disconnected from the world. It, and everyone in it and around you, gradually vanishes and is separated from you, so it becomes more of a phantasm than anything real. The further down the pit you go, the smaller your world, the world you actually have any control over, gets. At the ultimate point it has shrunk so all that is in it is you and the pain, and you have only one choice left: to continue to suffer or to make it stop.
Next: in response to the ludicrous ideas about Hell and Satan that I see appearing far too often, I think those of you who invoke all things Satanic are missing a very important point. When you're deeply depressed, you're already in Hell. Everything around you, including people, including your friends and family, are demons tormenting you by their presence, and the promise of human contact, and ordinary human behaviour that you know you cannot ever achieve again. By this point, the choice is not between a nice, ordinary life, in which you feel a bit sad, or a demon with a stick, but between continuing in Hell, or seeking an end in oblivion.
Third, the obvious rush to judgement of somebody who was suffering from a terrible, fatal disease, does no service to any of those indulging in it.
Posts: 1209 | From: Gashlycrumb | Registered: Feb 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
Next: in response to the ludicrous ideas about Hell and Satan that I see appearing far too often, I think those of you who invoke all things Satanic are missing a very important point. When you're deeply depressed, you're already in Hell.
When you say "those of you who invoke all things Satanic" are you talking about me, or just people outside of this thread? I don't think anyone else has invoked Satan on this thread (and haven't seen anyone mention hell at all).
The point you are making about the depressed already being in hell was precisely the point I was making. (Not that they go to hell for their actions, but that the suffering on this earth of severely depressed persons is hellish. Which I happen to believe is a result of the corruption of creation-- along with all human and animal suffering).
I do appreciate your willingness to share your own experience, which I think adds much to the discussion, as well as (IMHO) reinforcing the point I was trying to make re the need for compassion (and funding for care) for those struggling with depression and mental illness.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Whereas the evidence is impressive that the co-pilot took deliberate action to crash the plane, I think we might have to wait a lot longer for a really considered authoritative view of his probable state of mind, and the factors at work in all of that.
Of course you are all free to give the co-pilot every possible benefit of the doubt re deliberate action, but that looks to be a real stretch now. It is hard to fault the reasons why the responsibility has been attached solely to him and hard to argue with orfeo's summary of the improbability of responsibility lying elsewhere.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're reading my mind cliffdweller. You tell me.
So until Satan corrupted creation, there could be no psychotic breaks?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You're reading my mind cliffdweller. You tell me.
So until Satan corrupted creation, there could be no psychotic breaks?
Before Satan corrupted creation there were no humans. But yes, I believe that were we living in God's original/intended created universe, there would be no psychotic breaks. And one day we will live in the New Creation, and there will be no psychotic breaks. But in the world we now live in, life is frail, and this is one of the hazards. So we need to learn how to love one another in the world in which we find ourselves.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:creation was corrupted by Satan, leading to the suffering and brokenness we experience in the world today. Part of that suffering and brokenness is indeed mental illness and the consequences of that.
One of the quirks of suicidal depression - you can't talk about it. Friends and family freak out and refuse to discuss what you are going through, professionals have a legal duty to report you to the authorities so they can lock you up to take away the option. The most important decision in life and you can't talk it over with anyone, that's so isolating, that isolation prevents the kinds of discussions that could lead to seeing other "ways out" of the overwhelming pain.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I'm waiting for the investigators or an inquest to say the crashing was deliberate and not just the prosecutors.
How exactly is it that you can accept all the evidence that comes from the prosecutors, but not their conclusions about the evidence?
Did I say that? Are the investigators and the prosecutors the same thing?
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
Whether that means he was "culpable" in a legal sense or not, I am not qualified to say.
Does it matter? We can't jail his corpse.
It is clear, I think, that his deliberate actions flew the plane into the ground and prevented the captain from regaining access to the cockpit.
It is clear that he had some kind of mental illness issues.
The reports I have read suggest that his doctor had told him not to work, but he was in denial and showed up anyway. He probably knew that if he told his employers about is mental issues, he wouldn't fly again, and he wanted to fly.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:creation was corrupted by Satan, leading to the suffering and brokenness we experience in the world today. Part of that suffering and brokenness is indeed mental illness and the consequences of that.
One of the quirks of suicidal depression - you can't talk about it. Friends and family freak out and refuse to discuss what you are going through, professionals have a legal duty to report you to the authorities so they can lock you up to take away the option. The most important decision in life and you can't talk it over with anyone, that's so isolating, that isolation prevents the kinds of discussions that could lead to seeing other "ways out" of the overwhelming pain.
This is a good point. It can easily force people into isolation, which may make it all more intense. There is also often a good deal of shame linked to depression, and with some people, anger or rage. It can be a deadly cocktail, probably made worse by crass media coverage.
It's too soon, though, to confidently ascribe this tragedy to depression; I suspect though that he was quite ill.
[ 28. March 2015, 23:52: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
He probably knew that if he told his employers about is mental issues, he wouldn't fly again, and he wanted to fly.
Which was simply stupid, as he won't fly again anyway now.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
This is admittedly wild speculation, but inspired by various news stories.
Evidently, some of his health info has been withheld, due to privacy. In fact, there's talk in Germany of giving pilots less medical privacy.
But given that he reportedly had some sort of eye problem, and saw both eye docs and neurologists (and several, according to something I read); and that he reportedly had depression...I wonder if he might have had a problem in his brain that affected his eyes. Tumor? Aneurysm?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
One of the quirks of suicidal depression - you can't talk about it. Friends and family freak out and refuse to discuss what you are going through, professionals have a legal duty to report you to the authorities so they can lock you up to take away the option. The most important decision in life and you can't talk it over with anyone, that's so isolating, that isolation prevents the kinds of discussions that could lead to seeing other "ways out" of the overwhelming pain.
That's what the Samaritans are there for. The caller is anonymous and the Samaritan policy is to keep it that way. Moreover, after the volunteers have been answering the phones for awhile, they are shockproof.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
He probably knew that if he told his employers about is mental issues, he wouldn't fly again, and he wanted to fly.
Which was simply stupid, as he won't fly again anyway now.
Yes but now he does not have to live with the pain and shame of not flying.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
He probably knew that if he told his employers about is mental issues, he wouldn't fly again, and he wanted to fly.
Which was simply stupid, as he won't fly again anyway now.
Yes but now he does not have to live with the pain and shame of not flying.
Again, all of this is acting as if suicide were a rational act rather than a desperate one.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Whatever the explanation, he'll be having to do some explaining to the other 149 people he took with him. Let's hope (and pray) they forgive him.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
This is admittedly wild speculation, but inspired by various news stories.
Evidently, some of his health info has been withheld, due to privacy. In fact, there's talk in Germany of giving pilots less medical privacy.
But given that he reportedly had some sort of eye problem, and saw both eye docs and neurologists (and several, according to something I read); and that he reportedly had depression...I wonder if he might have had a problem in his brain that affected his eyes. Tumor? Aneurysm?
That is a very interesting point, I hadn't heard about neurologists, and a neurological issue might also cause changes in personality and perception.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
Next: in response to the ludicrous ideas about Hell and Satan that I see appearing far too often, I think those of you who invoke all things Satanic are missing a very important point. When you're deeply depressed, you're already in Hell.
When you say "those of you who invoke all things Satanic" are you talking about me, or just people outside of this thread? I don't think anyone else has invoked Satan on this thread (and haven't seen anyone mention hell at all).
cliffdweller,
FWIW I believe Figbash was referring to this post by Enoch on the first page rather than to your post:
quote:
What is really puzzling about those who take other people with them at the same time as they kill themselves, is that one would have thought that it was obvious that that is the way to make sure that you are casting yourself into the worst, hottest and nastiest place to spend eternity.
To do this, a person would have to be very, very confident that death is indeed the end and that not just Christianity but every other religion is completely wrong.
Nobody ever openly says this. But it is the elephant in the room that everyone knows is there.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: Suicide (other than, say, a euthanasia-type situation) is not a rational choice-- it's a desperate, anguished, irrational act. To call that "wicked"is to pile on to that anguish.
So, what can we say to a suicidal person? I'm sorry, if the co-pilot really killed 149 people, then I find that a bad thing. I'm also thinking about the anguish of the family members of those 149 people here.
To me, being depressed may take some of the responsibility for your actions away from you, but not all. If he really killed those 149 people, then he's a bad motherfucker.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
From the latest leaked bits of the cockpit voice recorder, it sounds like he deliberately incited the pilot to leave and go to the toilet.
If so, then this adds a whole new level of premeditation and clear, calculated thinking. It's hard to think of that in terms of anything other than wickedness, really.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
FWIW I believe Figbash was referring to this post by Enoch on the first page rather than to your post:
I didn't mention anything about Satan, and I'm not suggesting any such thing.
Nor am I saying anything unsympathetic or judgemental about people who are depressed, suicidal and feel they want to say 'goodbye cruel world'.
What I am saying though, is that killing yourself AND insisting on taking a collection of casual bystanders with you is prima facie an act of unconscionable wickedness. As I said, the elephant in the room is that
quote:
one would have thought that it was obvious that that is the way to make sure that you are casting yourself into the worst, hottest and nastiest place to spend eternity.
There may be some other explanation of what happened but I go with what Orfeo said about Occam's Razor applying here.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: Suicide (other than, say, a euthanasia-type situation) is not a rational choice-- it's a desperate, anguished, irrational act. To call that "wicked"is to pile on to that anguish.
So, what can we say to a suicidal person? I'm sorry, if the co-pilot really killed 149 people, then I find that a bad thing. I'm also thinking about the anguish of the family members of those 149 people here.
To me, being depressed may take some of the responsibility for your actions away from you, but not all. If he really killed those 149 people, then he's a bad motherfucker.
Again, we simply don't know enough about his mental capacity at the time to know if he was able to think in the rational terms you are assuming.
Again, it's natural after a horrible disaster to try to figure out "why" and to assess blame-- it's part of the way we reassure ourselves that if we just do X, Y, or Z to keep those evil ,other****ers out of the cockpit, it will never happen again. And to some degree that's helpful if it leads to changes that can help prevent such disasters. But often it only leads to a false hope-- part of our illusion that we can control fate. The reality is, tragedies happen. Sometimes horrible, terrible tragedies happen. They aren't always someone's fault. Sometimes they are part of the natural order (tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes) and other times they are part of the horrible, terrible brokenness of the human condition. There are some preventative measures we can take but ultimately we cannot control it-- it's part of the fragility of life. When discussion this on this thread a few days ago, I mentioned that we cannot keep someone from driving a car on the train tracks, leading to a derailment where innocent lives are injured or lost. Feeling sorta awful about that today since yesterday that exact thing happened a few miles from my home.
It's part of the fragility of life.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm also thinking about the anguish of the family members of those 149 people here.
What about the Lubitz family? Are they guilty by association and thus not deserving of your sympathy? By all accounts they too are suffering anguish as well ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: Again, we simply don't know enough about his mental capacity at the time to know if he was able to think in the rational terms you are assuming.
I didn't assume that he thought in rational terms.
quote:
cliffdweller: Again, it's natural after a horrible disaster to try to figure out "why" and to assess blame-- it's part of the way we reassure ourselves that if we just do X, Y, or Z to keep those evil ,other****ers out of the cockpit, it will never happen again.
I admire your ability to look inside my head and discover why I want to give a moral judgement of his actions. You're completely wrong.
I'm not looking for a false sense of security here. I'm completely aware that we can never completely prevent it. I'm also strongly opposed to a witch hunt against pilots who had a history of depression. And I say this as someone who flies very often.
The reason that I want to give a moral judgement is because killing 149 people is a moral action. Like I said, his depression may take part of his responsibility off him, but not all of it. In fact, I feel that denying the moral aspect of his actions takes away the humanity off him.
quote:
JoannaP: What about the Lubitz family? Are they guilty by association and thus not deserving of your sympathy? By all accounts they too are suffering anguish as well
Who said they didn't have my sympathy?
I don't know if I'm allowed to have degrees in my solidarity, but yes, my thoughts are first and foremost with the families of the 149 victims.
And I feel for the Lubitz family too. They lost a loved one. And from having been around families to which this has happened, I think that in the turmoil of emotions they're going through now, anger towards the egoism of his action is part of it. As far as I'm concerned, they're completely entitled to that anger.
They're not guilty by association. But they are going to have to find a way to live with the fact that their family member did a motherfuckingly bad thing. I don't see how denying this is going to help in any way.
[ 29. March 2015, 22:06: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
cliffdweller: Again, we simply don't know enough about his mental capacity at the time to know if he was able to think in the rational terms you are assuming.
I didn't assume that he thought in rational terms.
quote:
cliffdweller: Again, it's natural after a horrible disaster to try to figure out "why" and to assess blame-- it's part of the way we reassure ourselves that if we just do X, Y, or Z to keep those evil ,other****ers out of the cockpit, it will never happen again.
I admire your ability to look inside my head and discover why I want to give a moral judgement of his actions. You're completely wrong.
I'm not looking for a false sense of security here. I'm completely aware that we can never completely prevent it. I'm also strongly opposed to a witch hunt against pilots who had a history of depression. And I say this as someone who flies very often.
The reason that I want to give a moral judgement is because killing 149 people is a moral action. Like I said, his depression may take part of his responsibility off him, but not all of it. In fact, I feel that denying the moral aspect of his actions takes away the humanity off him.
I apologize for misreading your quotes, but have to then say if that's the case, I'm completely mystified about what you ARE saying and what is the partial responsibility you continue to assign to the co-pilot, regardless of what we learn about his mental capacity to make moral judgments? Are you arguing some sort of deontological ethics-- that some acts are just morally wrong, regardless of the motives or capacity of the actor? or is it the reverse- an extreme version of consequentialism- that the only relevant data is the consequences of motives or intent?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
cliffdweller: I'm completely mystified about what you ARE saying and what is the partial responsibility you continue to assign to the co-pilot, regardless of what we learn about his mental capacity to make moral judgments?
I'm saying that even if someone is completely depressed and suicidal, their capacity for making moral judgments may be small — perhaps even infinitesimally small — but not zero.
Suppose for a moment that all 149 people had died, but the co-pilot had miraculously survived the incident. Yes, he'd need some very good therapy and I'd be the first in line to shout that he should get exactly that. But part of this therapy would be him coming to terms with the extremely bad thing he has done.
This was not a natural disaster. A human did this. And even if he was completely depressed, I believe that at least a tiny part of him was still human.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
One of the odd things about this case is that no link has been established between the co-pilot's depression and what he did, except by the popular press, who are singularly unqualified to do that. Furthermore, it's possible that no link will ever be made, and we won't find out if he was in some other mental state.
I suppose that people want there to be an explanation, and so they are filling the gap.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't think I'm filling in gaps here, I guess I'm doing some sort of "What if?" excercise.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Ship of Fools: where murdering 150 people by flying a plane into a mountain is understandable and to be treated with sympathy, but making someone whose house you're paying for move a hundred miles up the road is the most evil thing in the entire fucking world.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't think I'm filling in gaps here, I guess I'm doing some sort of "What if?" excercise.
I didn't mean you. I have heard plenty of theories now, e.g. psychosis, psychopathy, narcissism, but they are pure guesswork. And saying it was his depression is guesswork. It's quite possible that we'll never find out his state of mind.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Whatever the explanation, he'll be having to do some explaining to the other 149 people he took with him. Let's hope (and pray) they forgive him.
A preacher once pointed out that none of those resurrected in the Bible (by Jesus or others) are reported to have expressed gratitude. Argument from silence is far from proof; but if we go to "a far far better place," or are embraced by absolute love (as many a Near Death Experiencer reports) the passengers are not suffering. It's family and friends still here who suffer.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What I am saying though, is that killing yourself AND insisting on taking a collection of casual bystanders with you is prima facie an act of unconscionable wickedness. As I said, the elephant in the room is that
quote:
one would have thought that it was obvious that that is the way to make sure that you are casting yourself into the worst, hottest and nastiest place to spend eternity.
How is that an "elephant in the room", and for whom? I was confused when you said that first, but since you repeat it now I would like to hear what you mean by that. I don't think that Lubitz going to hell is an obvious truth that is either being ignored or going unaddressed, or an obvious problem or risk no one wants to discuss (Wikipedia). If this great evil can be attributed to Lubitz, i.e., if he was sufficiently culpable, then by human reckoning and traditional Christian conceptions of the afterlife he is now burning in hell. Whether human and Divine reckoning coincide we cannot know. But so what? There's nothing special about these statements. Traditional Christians will say similar things about all kinds of evil and evildoers, non-traditional Christians and nonbelievers will ignore them concerning many other evil matters. I don't see how the Lubitz case is special in this regard?
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm saying that even if someone is completely depressed and suicidal, their capacity for making moral judgments may be small — perhaps even infinitesimally small — but not zero.
People are not mathematical equations. Below some threshold, cognition becomes noise. It is possible to be so out of one's mind as to be completely oblivious to and/or unconcerned with the death of others, and then one is not morally culpable - just very sick. However, I can make the following sense of your statement:
There is a serious temptation to threshold evil, so that evil that is "too large" is by default considered to be evidence for a sick mental state and hence the lack of culpability. However, I do not think that there is such a threshold. Doing great evil is not as such a sign of insanity. And the mere presence of mental illness is not an automatic excuse to "give in" to whatever evil promptings it may bring. If one is losing a struggle against one's own mind, then a responsibility accrues to seek medical advice and try the best one can to be under helpful supervision. Even if Lubitz was crazed beyond accountability when he downed the plane, this does not mean that he was inculpable in terms of the time before it came to that.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Ship of Fools: where murdering 150 people by flying a plane into a mountain is understandable and to be treated with sympathy, but making someone whose house you're paying for move a hundred miles up the road is the most evil thing in the entire fucking world.
Hmmm. One is very possibly the act of an irrational individual, unconcerned with his own life, while the other is a cold, rational calculation by those who will not suffer in the least.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
A preacher once pointed out that none of those resurrected in the Bible (by Jesus or others) are reported to have expressed gratitude..
But none of them are reported to have complained.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: People are not mathematical equations.
Of course they aren't. I'm simplifying things for the sake of discussing them on a bulletin board.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Ship of Fools: where murdering 150 people by flying a plane into a mountain is understandable and to be treated with sympathy, but making someone whose house you're paying for move a hundred miles up the road is the most evil thing in the entire fucking world.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If one is losing a struggle against one's own mind, then a responsibility accrues to seek medical advice and try the best one can to be under helpful supervision. Even if Lubitz was crazed beyond accountability when he downed the plane, this does not mean that he was inculpable in terms of the time before it came to that.
I think this is fair. I have depression and have had a few severe episodes. While it isn't helpful to see myself as wholly and entirely responsible for the progression of any episode, neither is it helpful to create a narrative where there are no choices I can make that can affect the outcome.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Belle Ringer: I hope none of the 149 passengers and crew are suffering;I would like to think that Lubitz is not suffering, though he may, now, be remorseful. But he will ceretainly be accountable for his actions, and I suspect he may well have to explain himself to those whose earthly lives he cut short (particularly the schoolchildren). Or do you think they should be grateful to him, for removing them from this vale of tears, and their families and friends?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
... In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
So having a personality disorder makes it more acceptable to kill people. Sorry. No.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
Yes, I've been asking around the therapy grapevine, and quite a few are saying that. I think a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually, especially the tabloids, with their hitherto unknown aptitude for psychological diagnostics! In other words, it's guesswork.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
... In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
... In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ... [/QUOTE]
So having a personality disorder makes it more acceptable to kill people. Sorry. No.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
Yes, I've been asking around the therapy grapevine, and quite a few are saying that. I think a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually, especially the tabloids, with their hitherto unknown aptitude for psychological diagnostics! In other words, it's guesswork.
A person who is seriously mentally ill may or may not also have an underlying serious personality disorder ...
Someone with a severe major personality disorder may or may not also have depression and/or anxiety ... Those are not the same things, but they are commonly "dance partners" ...
But the point is, generally, mentally ill persons are not as likely to be dangerous to others, but more so to themselves, while a person with a major severe personality disorder may be simply flat out dangerous ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
That apparently suicidal mentally ill co-pilot's life was not going well ... Although he loved flying, and was good at it, he was reportedly developing a serious vision problem that would ground him permanently ...
But more seriously, the fact that he performed a mass murder suicide would suggest that he also had a major severe personality disorder ...
a lot of people are jumping from depression to violence rather casually,...
I'm seeing jumping not from depression to violence, but from a class of antidepressant drugs to violence. here's an old article saying "some antidepressants like Prozac — have also been linked to increase risk for violent, even homicidal behavior."
The link between SSRIs and homicidal violence comes up with each school shooting - not depression and violence, but SSRI drugs and violence. Maybe we need a better way to help with depression.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Teilhard
Shipmate
# 16342
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Teilhard:
... In most discussions of "people who do horribly horrible things to others," the matter of *personality*disorder* is often overlooked ...
So having a personality disorder makes it more acceptable to kill people. Sorry. No.
"More acceptable" -- no ...
More likely -- yes ...
Posts: 401 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2011
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