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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kill the Christians
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Ease off, people. The personal temperature is rising. We appreciate it is an emotive subject.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Acknowledged B. And your as ever thoughtful reply invoking the sublime John Donne. Persecuting is the vilest thing we do. I have no idea how prayer works any more. And I can and do pray that. I can bring the ghastly evil of meaningless persecution like all other horrors before God. And ask Him what? And I do. I did today in church when we were told the lie that the second Christian city in Iraq had just fallen to IS.
It's just recycling of the horrors of Qaraqosh, the fear crazed ecstasy in the blood of teenage Christian martyrs of last August. Propagated by Andrew White with the plea for military intervention. Echoed by the Pope. Because that's what Jesus would do, WILL DO! HAVEN'T YOU READ REVELATION!!! Boy do they get theirs!
That's what Jesus wants. Child martyrs (good job too, because if they'd DENIED Him, HOO boy!) AND carpet bombing. Says so in Matthew 5.
I used to ask Him 'How long Oh Lord?'. Then I started to hear Him echo it back. Why do we keep Him waiting? Why do we extend it, the best of us, asking for MORE war?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I was personally very affected by the Garissa attack for reasons I won't go into here. I've been in deep despair about it frankly. I just didn't feel moved to post about it on an internet board. So fuck that metric for demonstrating how much I might care about those murders.
Well said. Thank you. Why does it have to be assumed that we have to emote publicly about everything or that unless we do, we don't care?
I’m sorry for inadvertently upsetting mdijon, but none of us is psychic, and much of what we post carries the risk of being personally applicable to some other Shipmate – it goes with the territory.
I’m also happy to admit that I should probably have posted earlier on the issue.
That being said, it remains valid to ask why WE didn’t raise or discuss (not “publicly emote”) such a genuinely momentous global event on a site which routinely deals with all imaginable minutiae of Christianity; particularly on a thread headed Killing The Christians; and especially when just about all other Christian print or online media that I am aware of did so.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
OK, well, to reverse what seems to have been a trend of not mentioning such things,
Ethiopian Christians this time ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's a deliberate tactic to outrage, then play on misplaced loyalties if there is retaliation. And it works. It is also evil, vile, poisonous to those who do it.
I think it also sees "turning the other cheek" as a sign of weakness.
ISTM that IS has policies which demonstrate a calculated psychopathology, and sufficient idealists who have been turned into psychopaths in order to carry the policies out. (Or maybe folks who are attracted to the movement because it will give them scope for their inherently violent and vengeful instincts.)
Religious analysis doesn't really get to the root of the problem. This is more about bad people using mad people, or making them mad so they can do really bad things. With a kind of self-righteous religious top dressing. And it is, and will continue to be, hard to combat.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I agree with that ... it draws in idealists and turns them into psychos ...
Comparisons are invidious and we are not always comparing like-with-like ... but there are analogies with extreme 'Christian' or quasi-Christian cults ... although in most of those the worst you can expect is 'love-bombing' and people harassing everyone else with tracts on street corners ...
I don't want to get into the tired old chestnut about whether Christianity, Islam or Judaism ... or anything else - are potentially more deadly.
I think Kaplan is right to point out that groups like the Lord's Resistance Army don't represent mainstream Christian thought.
I'm not convinced that IS represent mainstream Muslim thought - but they do appear to indicate the result when radical jihadism of a particularly fundamentalist and toxic form is taken to its hideous conclusion.
Without indulging in the kind of Islamophobia that some posters seem to demonstrate - such as one recently called to Hell - I do have some sympathy with the view that it is more difficult for Islam to distance itself from some elements of 'Caliphate' thinking - even if most Muslims wouldn't want to equate that with the kind of atrocities that IS are carrying out against anyone and everything they disapprove of - whether Christian, Yazidi, other forms of Islam or ancient sculptures on show in public museums ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I agree with that ... it draws in idealists and turns them into psychos ...
Nor is not the first ideology to have done that. 1930s Russia, the Khmer Rouge, Münster, the Committee of Public Safety ... the list goes on. Nor is it the first group of people to have used terror as a weapon. Those did. So, though they didn't have an ideology, did the Mongol invasions.
Idealism is a very dangerous thing, in whatever cause. I know of no cause, including our own, which is not capable of tapping into it. It is one of the most seductive temptations there is, especially for the good and the well intentioned. But it is anti-human.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, indeed. Anything can be drawn into the inhuman category. As the late, great missiologist Lesslie Newbiggin used to say, 'Any attempt to bring heaven down from above invariably brings hell up from below ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I do have some sympathy with the view that it is more difficult for Islam to distance itself from some elements of 'Caliphate' thinking - even if most Muslims wouldn't want to equate that with the kind of atrocities that IS are carrying out against anyone and everything they disapprove of.
The problem for moderates everywhere. Approving of the end but not the means can sound so half-hearted, so lukewarm, so wishy-washy. And somehow we've failed to develop a culture that prizes those things...
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
There are times when I wonder whether the means aren't more important than the ends.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think it also sees "turning the other cheek" as a sign of weakness.
Turning the other cheek was not meant as a basis for foreign policy or formulating the defence budget.
And I don't believe Jesus meant it to be.
Love your enemies does not mean be nice to them even though they are murderous butchers.
Love means justice for the victims.
[ 20. April 2015, 16:12: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm certainly not indifferent to my tribe persecuting others and whinging about being persecuted for it.
But, they aren't really your tribe are they, Martin?
I can tolerate anything except the outgroup
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I was personally very affected by the Garissa attack for reasons I won't go into here. I've been in deep despair about it frankly. I just didn't feel moved to post about it on an internet board. So fuck that metric for demonstrating how much I might care about those murders.
Well said. Thank you. Why does it have to be assumed that we have to emote publicly about everything or that unless we do, we don't care?
I’m sorry for inadvertently upsetting mdijon, but none of us is psychic, and much of what we post carries the risk of being personally applicable to some other Shipmate – it goes with the territory.
I’m also happy to admit that I should probably have posted earlier on the issue.
That being said, it remains valid to ask why WE didn’t raise or discuss (not “publicly emote”) such a genuinely momentous global event on a site which routinely deals with all imaginable minutiae of Christianity; particularly on a thread headed Killing The Christians; and especially when just about all other Christian print or online media that I am aware of did so.
It's a bit like asking if supporters of the Ordination of Women are whorephobic, because I am pretty sure that some of us were being a bit snitty about Forward in Faith whilst Mr Steve Wright was murdering women in Ipswich, without condemning him. The thing is that Forward in Faith are controversial whereas Mr Wright's activities, obviously, were not. People on these boards believe all sorts of weird and wonderful things about the condition of women question, but I think that we can take it as read that none of us thinks that murdering prostitutes is a good thing. Hence not much discussion. I submit that the same is true of the recent atrocities by Islamists in Kenya. They were indefensible and the people who committed them are utter swine. I think the only contentious bit in that last sentence is that it might be unfair to pigs. Now on a discussion board that may make the Kenyan atrocities a bit barren because what's to discuss? Particularly, asking Christians whether they approve of the brutal murder of Christians qua Christians is a bit like asking a discussion board for turkeys whether they feel a vegetarian alternative to Christmas dinner has any validity. You'd get more mileage asking people what they think about the Filoque. I'm struggling to see why this is bad, unless you think that 'murdering people is bad' is as mysterious as the Procession of the Holy Ghost. IMV it ain't mysterious, hence no discussion.
Hope that helps.
[ 20. April 2015, 17:12: Message edited by: Callan ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think it also sees "turning the other cheek" as a sign of weakness.
Turning the other cheek was not meant as a basis for foreign policy or formulating the defence budget.
And I don't believe Jesus meant it to be.
Love your enemies does not mean be nice to them even though they are murderous butchers.
Love means justice for the victims.
And it also means not standing by and watching someone being kicked to death in front of you when you have it in your power to stop it: doing nothing to protect the victim when you have the power to is arguably as culpable as sticking the boot in yourself.
"Am I my brother's keeper" is a very, very old and very, very poor cop out.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A metaphor for a response aimed at restoring or making peace, Mudfrog. I understand about foreign policy and defence issues. Sorry I didn't make that clear, but that was the reason for the quotes.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Love your enemies does not mean be nice to them even though they are murderous butchers.
This is utter bullshit because it hides the factors which cause there to be murderous butchers in the first place. WWII being a prime example.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Love means justice for the victims.
Love means doing one's best for there to be fewer victims in the first place.
[ 20. April 2015, 18:43: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, it does mean that - but what happens when, for all the ins and outs and blame for whose fault it is - you have cold-blooded killers bearing down on comparatively defenceless civilians - be they Yazidis, Christians or Shia Muslims - or any other form of Muslim?
Arguing about whose fault it is for the conditions that create an ISIS doesn't do much for those families sheltering in monasteries close to the front-line in Kurdistan nor for groups of migrant workers from Egypt or Ethiopia seized and butchered in Libya.
It'd be like bewailing, in hindsight, the severity of the reparations levied after the Treaty of Versailles when Panzer divisions were rolling into Poland or into Belgium.
Western foreign policy hasn't been very smart.
I'm glad Milliband saw off Cameron's sabre-rattling over Syria and that this seems to have sent a message to Obama. Assad is a callous dictator but bombing him and his regime isn't going to stop ISIS or any other jihadist group.
Should there be some kind of military action against ISIS? Well, yes, I think it would be justified if proportionate to the threat and if conducted to prevent the slaughter of any civilians of whatever creed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Arguing about whose fault it is for the conditions that create an ISIS doesn't do much for those families sheltering in monasteries close to the front-line in Kurdistan nor for groups of migrant workers from Egypt or Ethiopia seized and butchered in Libya.
That is not the point. My point is that as long as we see our current reactions as justified, we will continue to create situations in which such actions will occur.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There are those who would argue that had we bombed Assad back at the beginning of the uprising we would have helped the moderate rebels rather than allowing the situation to spiral to the extent that groups like ISIS could emerge ...
I don't buy that argument.
But whatever the West does now is going to be 'wrong' ...
However, something has to be done to stop ISIS. The question is, what?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well yes, I can see that - somewhere or other the spiral of violence has to be broken - and once started, a spiral of violence is difficult to stop.
Take Northern Ireland, we're not seeing the same level of violence as there was when the Troubles were at their height - but the threat is still there and incidents still take place.
Much as we might like to, we can't turn back the clock. We can't go back to a time before the invasion of Iraq. What we do about that and how we handle the consequences of what's happened over the last few decades, I don't know.
What do you propose?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Something is being done; the Kurds and various Iraqui militias are driving IS back to an extent. Within Syria, I don't think anybody has a clue, except hope for general exhaustion. Western intervention on the ground would be very risky.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I don't know. My response was mainly to the idea of "justified" violence.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't know either and justifying violence doesn't sit easily with me ...
Meanwhile, yes, the Peshmerga seem to be holding ISIS back ... but how does anyone deal with the ISIS units that appear to be operating elsewhere - beyond the war zones in Syria?
The massacres of Copts and Ethiopian Christians in Libya are a case in point.
I'm not sure that Western military intervention on the ground could help there - unless there were limited commando-raid style strikes at particular targets - but those are difficult to put off and could easily go badly wrong or exacerbate things further.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yes, 'something must be done' is a moving argument. I would have thought it is arguable that all the just war conditions that would justify anyone attacking IS are met except one, but in this context, that one is an overwhelming against any argument for any group from outside the Middle East wading in.
That clincher argument, is that in addition to all the other more high minded criteria, for a war to be just, it must be fought with a reasonable prospect of success. 'Something must be done', however moving, on its own is no justification unless one can pinpoint exactly,
a. What one can do, and
b. How to make sure it will succeed, i.e. work.
"Fighting soldiers from the sky
Fearless men who jump and die"
isn't enough.
A lot of the mess in the Middle East at the moment derives directly from people - two of them in particular - who meddled without asking that question properly. We're now faced with a situation where, because of their actions, not only has something dreadful happened, but the scope for the rest of the world's being able to do much about it is so much less. And as usual, it is the innocent who suffer. One of the features of wickedness is that it does not do justice. It is outside God's kingdom. Its fruits fall on the wrong people.
As so often Gamaliel talks a lot of sense.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What Beeswax Altar, because I'm no longer a homophobic, sexist, racist bigot, a half-Christian warmonger, I can't belong to the Church?
Fine.
And Gamaliel. We'll NEVER know until we try.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Well, to paraphrase Woody Allen, I guess being a Pharisee for the Left is OK.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Well, to paraphrase Woody Allen, I guess being a Pharisee for the Left is OK.
"Pharisee for the left" is an oxymoron.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Well, to paraphrase Woody Allen, I guess being a Pharisee for the Left is OK.
"Pharisee for the left" is an oxymoron.
You obviously haven't met some of the left-wingers I have - or read much modern history.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Of course the Left has Pharisees, the Far Left particularly.
I'm wary of identifying any political or theological position with Pharisaisism - it seems able to thrive anywhere and everywhere. We've all met left, right and centrist Pharisees, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant ones ...
We are all capable of it ourselves.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Once again Gamaliel hits the spot.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Pharisees, Hypocrites for Jesus! That's what I say.
Don't worry Beeswax Altar, I'm struggling to love myselves, to embrace and forgive myselves and all like myselves. I don't condemn myselves. As I curse, abuse myself for having been abusive. Therefore I cannot condemn let alone carpet bomb IS. Or you. Much as I'd like to ...
Which if we had ANY conviction at all bar being Islamic to the Beatitudes we would. Counter-abuse, counter-terrorize, annihilate IS thus win hearts and minds with their balls in our twisting hands.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Therefore I cannot condemn let alone carpet bomb IS. Or you. Much as I'd like to ... (Italics, mine - B62)
Back off Martin. You've had enough warnings from H&A about wrapping personal abuse in ambiguous or obscure parcels. Take this as a final reminder re benefit of the doubt.
If you have any desire to verbally "carpet bomb" Beeswax Altar or anyone else, don't even hint at it in Purgatory. You can call them to Hell or leave it out.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
So....what? We cross the road and walk on by on the other side?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
So the only possible alternatives are either bombing or 'walking by on the other side'? No, actually.
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arse
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course the Left has Pharisees, the Far Left particularly.
I'm wary of identifying any political or theological position with Pharisaisism - it seems able to thrive anywhere and everywhere. We've all met left, right and centrist Pharisees, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant ones ...
We are all capable of it ourselves.
Exactly. Pharisaism knows no political or theological boundaries, and thinking that one is not capable of it might be an indicator that one can be. Self-awareness is not a strong point with potential Pharisees.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Which if we had ANY conviction at all bar being Islamic to the Beatitudes we would. Counter-abuse, counter-terrorize, annihilate IS thus win hearts and minds with their balls in our twisting hands.
Not a lot of people mourned the end of the Third Reich. I won't be mourning IS when - and if - their much-deserved demise comes about.
But 'if' is the question. I think IS are going to be here for quite some time yet. Gamaliel, Enoch and others have highlighted very well the moral quagmire the West has landed itself in, due in no small part to our militaristic meddling.
Jesus told us to pray for our enemies. That doesn't stop me grimly hoping for an evil regime to meet its end.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
So the only possible alternatives are either bombing or 'walking by on the other side'? No, actually.
I didn't say they were the only two alternatives. I would be interested though to hear your suggestion as to how to protect our brothers and sisters.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I didn't say they were the only two alternatives. I would be interested though to hear your suggestion as to how to protect our brothers and sisters.
I don't think there is any way to protect them. We have, in our own sinfulness, created a system whereby we sit in comfort when others experience everything at the sharp end: climate change, terrorism, environmental degredation, poverty, food insecurity.
And the only solution we have is to use advanced weaponry on our enemies. That's just sick.
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arse
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Boots on the ground would be mine. Short term, yes. May cause more problems in the long term if we fuck it up again, yes (so we'd better make bloody sure we don't this time). Lack political will to do it, unfortunately.
Doing nothing is not an option for me; it sucks us into culpability.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Boots on the ground would be mine. Short term, yes. May cause more problems in the long term if we fuck it up again, yes (so we'd better make bloody sure we don't this time). Lack political will to do it, unfortunately.
Dumbest idea in the history of dumb ideas. Getting sucked into a conflict across North Africa is not a winnable strategy.
quote:
Doing nothing is not an option for me; it sucks us into culpability.
The binary choice between doing nothing and doing something really stupid is not one I'm prepared to make.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
I didn't see any alternative put forward by you so you are subscribing as much to the 'binary' view as I am. You're just choosing the option that I find morally unacceptable.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I didn't see any alternative put forward by you so you are subscribing as much to the 'binary' view as I am. You're just choosing the option that I find morally unacceptable.
OK, here's a solution: how about we don't live in wealth whilst others in N Africa live in poverty. How about we don't prop up dictators across the region. How about we don't fund jihadist groups when it suits our purposes. How about we don't crowd around the phosphate mines of Morocco, the oilfields of Nigeria and the diamond mines of god-knows-where to pay for our expensive post-retirement lives. How about we don't treat the rest of the world as our plaything and the bank of resources upon which we can build our lives whilst others die. How about we don't look to North Africa to supply us with cheap labour and then punish them when they do.
How about we live within our means.
How about we pay people properly.
How about we pay to clean up the messes we've made.
How about we support democracy everywhere, not just when it suits us.
How about we stop funding brutal military regimes.
The sad fucking problem is that we don't seem to realise that the brutality these little shits are displaying in their poxy youtube videos is just a reflection of the brutality we're perpetrating on almost every African every day of the year. The only difference here is that depriving someone of any form of safe sanitation is a slow lingering death whereas cutting someone's head off happens in a moment.
If they're sick fuckers, we're no better.
[ 21. April 2015, 11:11: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Some good points, agreed. Unfortunately, the bits about supporting democracy and not supporting brutal dictators seems to have been partly to blame for the mess the region is in.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
I don't think we have only few choices here, but rather many. Blowing people to Kingdom Come is seldom the best solution—even when they really deserve it.
First and foremost, before we get around to talking about issues of poverty and disenfranchisement (which are real issue for sure), IS are simply doing what their religion says on the tin. These are religiously motivated behaviours—and they make that clear. The source of their venom is not a mystery.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Is this a version of the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy I smell here?
Some hope, possibly.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
"You talkin' to me?"
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Well, yes: you seem to be suggesting that their psychopathic behaviour is due to their Muslim religion rather than them being....er...psychopaths. I shall be delighted to be disabused of that suggestion, however...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Sort of. We are not talking about a mystery here. IS are perfectly clear on why they do what they do—because of their religion. It would be possible (or rather, easy) to find some particularly barbaric passages in the Bible and argue that Christianity is, by the book, just as violent a religion. However, most Muslims do not take the Koran by the letter. Most Jews and Christians do not take the Bible literally either—ideas external to the Bible have taught us that killing everyone who is not a believer is a bad way to live. That kind of philosophical renaissance has yet to happy to Islam in the same way.
K.
PS. I don't see at all how that is the Casual Fallacy.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Onward Christian Soldiers, eh Matt? The XIth Crusade.
[ 21. April 2015, 12:10: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
So far, UK shipmates have called for commando raids. Baptism is not part of SAS initiation. So, the soldiers will not be exclusively Christian. Besides, I don't know why you are so concerned about the possible suffering of ISIS. What would be so special about that?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
Well, indeed. I'm not advocating a crusade, Martin; I'm just not prepared to sit by idly and watch innocent people being massacred before my eyes.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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