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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UK Renewal and Politics
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I agree. And isn't the "Dominion" thing a direct descendant of the 1930s "Bash Camp" philosophy of taking the elite public school kids and teaching them the Faith with the express intent that they'd end up in senior positions in State or Church?
Admittedly Nash had "evangelicals" rather than "charismatics" in mind (they hadn't been invented) - but wasn't David Watson one of the products of this system? (I'm not saying he was a "Dominionist" or even a Tory, of course).
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
At it's root, the 'prosperity gospel' considers that it's possible to quantify the blessings of God. Those who walk right with the Lord, it is claimed, will enjoy His blessings - in improved financial state, improved physical and mental health, greater happiness, increasing social influence, growing numbers of church members, etc. The charismatic churches take up the theme with an emphasis on spiritual gifts as a sign of Gods favour. If people are thinking of Alpha as being successful - in terms of the number of churches using it, reported numbers of people growing into a deeper (ie: closer to the model of HTB) faith or coming to faith etc - and then decide that is evidence that God approves of Alpha and is blessing it, then it's a small step to other aspects of the 'health and wealth' prosperity gospel. Similar dynamics can be seen in some of the megachurches, which have also had to fight (to varying degrees of success) the temptation to equate their numerical success with Gods blessing and hence slide into the prosperity heresy.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I agree. And isn't the "Dominion" thing a direct descendant of the 1930s "Bash Camp" philosophy of taking the elite public school kids and teaching them the Faith with the express intent that they'd end up in senior positions in State or Church?
Admittedly Nash had "evangelicals" rather than "charismatics" in mind (they hadn't been invented) - but wasn't David Watson one of the products of this system? (I'm not saying he was a "Dominionist" or even a Tory, of course).
I don't think the Bash Camp ethos is the same as Reconstructionism/Dominionism.
The latter rests more on the idea that we are all "sons and daughters of the King", the former is rooted more in secular, Empire ideas of colonialism and elitism (IIRC, the last Alpha leadership conference had a video endorsement from David Cameron. I'm not sure what the French catholic delegation made of that...).
Where both meet is, I suspect, in the idea of (and focus on) "leadership", which I think is largely a worldly, corporate concept, and again, an economic liberal one.
By the end of my time in NFI I was very uncomfortable with the focus on "leadership" after the "come one come all" ethos of Stoneleigh Bible Weeks, and since doing work with many large companies I've discovered just how much these leadership conferences mirror corporate ones in both form and content.
The uncomfortable reality is that the Church at large does seem to derive some benefit from "leadership"-led "renewal" - can anybody find a bad word to say about David Watson? - but when I think about the prevailing style and methods, I keep hearing Jesus' words "but it shall not be so among you".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
In my opinion, one of the legacies of the New Wine and HTB's wide influence is a form of prosperity gospel in all but name. By insisting on a "personal relationship with God" as the only authentic form of relational Christianity, a straight line is drawn between the material/health blessings experienced by the individual and the closeness to the deity.
Look at the language used in many British MOTR quasi charimastic and generally Evangelical churches of many denominational stripes. Blessings are very frequently related to material things, jobs, healings and so on. The logical converse of this is that "we" regard those who do not have these blessings as being unblessed by God and in some way or another far from a proper relationship with God.
It is a more subtle form of the prosperity gospel than those forms frequently seen exploiting people in parts of Africa, but I am convinced that prosperity gospel is what it is.
And if Conservative Evangelicals are tempted to crow, it is also a feature of many of their congregations, but with a different hue.
[ 26. April 2015, 06:36: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I don't think the Bash Camp ethos is the same as Reconstructionism/Dominionism. ... By the end of my time in NFI I was very uncomfortable with the focus on "leadership" after the "come one come all" ethos of Stoneleigh Bible Weeks, and since doing work with many large companies I've discovered just how much these leadership conferences mirror corporate ones in both form and content.
Thanks. Perhaps I wasn't clear: I was specifically making my remarks thinking of HTB-style Anglicanism, I am sure they don't apply to other sectors of Christianity.
I'm with you about Leadership (and, to turn the coin over, I've seen how disempowered NFI-type churches can be if the leader has to step down/go off sick etc.)
In Baptist churches in the 1980s there was a cry of "let the leaders lead!" While this was partly guided by "management" thinking and also influenced by concepts coming in from the New Churches, it was also a practical response to the problem of Church Meetings getting clogged up with trivia and forgetting its strategic role in defining the agenda of the Church. Leaders were stymied in that every decision got chewed over to the nth degree and usually ended up at the safest option.
But I think we're getting away from politics - although I do think (and said in church last Sunday) that the congregationalist churches at their best can provide a good model for Parliament, with "good disagreement" among those who gather, leading to original and constructive solutions being achieved, and with a "cabinet" which is responsive to the "common good".
[ 26. April 2015, 06:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I was specifically making my remarks thinking of HTB-style Anglicanism
I think you are absolutely right that this is the direct descendant of the Bash Camps ethos. I think this is a separate animal to prosperity gospel. I think that where the two find common ground is in the over-elevation of leaders and a culture of success.
[ 26. April 2015, 06:59: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I think this "culture of success" thing is important, and I think it has very negative side-effects which (to my mind) are very much contrary to the spirit of Jesus.
For instance: many people seeking a church will look to see how "successful" it is and regard that as a measure of the "Lord's blessing"? Now, I don't want to be narky: that "success" may indeed be the result that the church is doing something right (and, goodness knows, too many churches don't seem to think about what they're doing at all). But it may be largely due to socio-cultural factors in an area which have little, if anything, to do with God or the church.
What this thinking - tied in with Christian consumerism - does mean is that smaller churches, trying hard to incarnate Christ in difficult areas, will not be regarded as "successful" and will not attract people who could really make a difference to its life, witness and effectiveness.
There is a corollary, too: ministers in these churches very quickly see themselves as "failures" (and rarely get "preferment" or attention) even though they may be just as devoted disciples as the leaders of the "successful" churches. All that seems totally alien to Christ's way of thinking.
For an interesting and personal view, read this and other articles on this website by the same author. I don't know him personally.
(All this is a bit like really good schools and teachers in very tough areas being deemed "failures" by both parents and the powers-that-be when in fact they are working their socks off to make a change ... I'd better not go there though!)
[ 26. April 2015, 07:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Well this is where I come back to the mantra I have made my own, of seeking the Kingdom and letting Jesus build his Church as and when he wishes.
As I understand the Kingdom of God, it's counter-cultural and a-Political (with a capital P). It's a set of values and not a system, a map and not a destination. I think Politics comes into play when Leaders™ focus on building the Church (or more particularly, their particular corner of it), and appropriating followers. You start to have a constituency that translates into influence, revenue, and potential votes.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Thanks for the Bash Camp info; that was a blind spot for me.
I'm probably more influenced by the distinctly subversive early Spring Harvests. Michael Cassidy speaking on segregationalist attitudes in the church in South Africa and his struggles against that. Campolo fulminating passionately about the need to restore social justice by deed, word and protest to its rightful place in the church. An offering in support of the Christians in Argentina during the middle of the Falklands war. Much more of the same. There wasn't much Dominionism or an exclusive emphasis on individual salvation in those days; it was more about a re-awakening of passion and compassion, which I've always felt is the real purpose of anything which can truly be called "renewal".
With some honourable exceptions, I don't see so much of that in UK Renewal these days. It does appear to be more individualised these days.
Christianity does emphasise both personal and social responsibilities, so I guess there is always a risk that it will veer too much in one of those directions, not enough in the other. What I got out of my early wrestlings with renewal was not either/or but both.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Few people seem prepared to face up to the rampant anti-semitism of Sandy Millar and HTB, nor to look closer at his remarks about homosexuality ("a speciously sophisticated manifestation of evil").
But then no one seems particularly worried about Desmond Tutu's anti-semitic statements either...
Maybe in the case of Millar, Gumble and HTB its all to do with the true "holy trinity" of Eton, Trinity College Cambridge and Holy Trinity Brompton?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
With some honourable exceptions, I don't see so much of that in UK Renewal these days. It does appear to be more individualised these days.
Christianity does emphasise both personal and social responsibilities, so I guess there is always a risk that it will veer too much in one of those directions, not enough in the other.
Yes. I think that Evangelicalism and its cognates, with their emphasis on personal conversion and experience, always run the danger of becoming self-centred. But there are, of course, exceptions - e.g. Ichthus back in the day was, I understand, very socially-conscious.
I think though that one must link this in with the rampant "me-first" individualism which is now so prevalent throughout society. This has been accepted by churches almost willy-nilly (or even endorsed!) but I think it needs to be challenged! The "Liberal" churches are generally better at this; they often have older congregations and so I wonder if there is a generational thing in this?
[ 26. April 2015, 08:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Maybe in the case of Millar, Gumble and HTB its all to do with the true "holy trinity" of Eton, Trinity College Cambridge and Holy Trinity Brompton?
At least Eton College Chapel is dedicated to the BVM, not the Trinity ... ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I think you're all right ...
There, is that a good example of consensus 'politics'?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
As with everything else, I think there's some kind of balance here - and if we take the Orthodox mantra that 'God is everywhere present and filleth (fillest?) all things ...' then we take some of the pressure off ourselves. There may well be social, cultural and other reasons for a church's apparent 'success' but that doesn't mean that God isn't involved in some way - working in and through those social and cultural factors.
That seems to be to be basic Incarnational theology.
Conversely, a church or grouping that struggles numerically etc isn't necessarily devoid or grace or the presence of God ...
'God be at my end and at my departing.'
In terms of our natural, human lives, is God any more present with us in the full bloom of youth than he is when we are decrepit or on our death-beds?
I agree with Barnabas62 that the early Spring Harvests were more radical and egalitarian - with a strong social emphasis. As a very recent convert from a fairly lefty background, I was blown away by that and delighted to find that evangelicalism could sit alongside social action ... or that the two could become fused in some holistic way.
However, subsequent conventions served to disappoint. The emphasis swung towards individual 'blessing' and charismatic gifts ... although in fairness, Spring Harvest did survive to steal a march on the various 'new church' Bible Weeks - Downs, Dales/Wales and Stoneleigh etc which eclipsed its impact for a while ...
As well as the political side of things, I think that Gumbel, Alpha and the New Wine end of the Anglican charismatic spectrum have indeed succumbed to a subtle form of prosperity gospelism. They always have to have some kind of celebrity or someone in a position of power and influence endorsing it - hence Cameron.
I'd go further with Eutychus's telling observation that management-speak in a secular context is identical to what goes on with the managerialism of the Alpha and Church Growth things ... and also suggest that the way that 'pictures', 'words from the Lord' and so on in these contexts are developed and applied are virtually identical to the kind of creative brainstorming sessions one encounters in marketing and advertising.
I've been involved with those and could easily have taken any of the ideas and concepts/'pictures' and claimed that they were some kind of direct revelation or 'word from God' - when in fact all they were simply some kind of creative or striking insight once the creative juices had started to flow.
I've seen the same in creative writing workshops I've been involved with.
Ok, that doesn't necessarily mean that God isn't involved - I'm not overly dualistic about these things - but it is to suggest that there's a similar dynamic at play.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
But then no one seems particularly worried about Desmond Tutu's anti-semitic statements either...
/Tangent
If this has legs, and can be discussed without crossing the Commandment 7 libel boundaries, it may be worth a separate thread. I've read a fair bit on this issue (including statements for which Tutu has been criticised) and I think he is critical of the oppressive aspects of Zionism (which is very much what I would expect). I don't think he's an antisemite.
/end Tangent
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I would be happy to have that debate. Nothing that Tutu has said is antisemitic in my opinion, I think we should examine that claim.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd go further with Eutychus's telling observation that management-speak in a secular context is identical to what goes on with the managerialism of the Alpha and Church Growth things ... and also suggest that the way that 'pictures', 'words from the Lord' and so on in these contexts are developed and applied are virtually identical to the kind of creative brainstorming sessions one encounters in marketing and advertising.
Not surprising, since some of the folk involved must come from those sorts of backgrounds. But how critical have they been when bringing in these secular techniques? Possibly not enough.
I did once spent a day at a leaders' meeting which used most of its time basin its thoughts on such a "picture". I just wanted to say, "Come on, don't be silly, this is so subjective" - but I was in a minority of 1.
[ 26. April 2015, 08:49: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Which is a pity, Baptist Trainfan, as you were probably the only genuinely 'prophetic' person there ...
I think what happens - and I can see this with our local vicar who is on the regional New Wine leadership team - is that these guys/gals are so scared of things lapsing back into what they see as 'dead' traditionalism that they are prepared to take on anything that purports to be a 'word from the Lord' irrespective of how subjective, jejune or lame it is.
Sure, they generally have enough discernment to reject things which are way out of the window, as it were, but what they end up doing is magnifying common-place and unexceptional insights as if they were some kind of oracle of God.
It really is silly and I have no time for it these days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I would be happy to have that debate. Nothing that Tutu has said is antisemitic in my opinion, I think we should examine that claim.
Thanks. I'm going to have a chat with H&A about ways in which we might do this without crossing C7. It's a bit tricky ...
B62
Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
First
All this talk about Holy Trinity Brompton, Alpha, their admiration for success and fondness for the corridors of power isn't remotely unique to them. Whether we're talking about Popes, Patriarchs, Bishops, or the darlings of the ecclesiastical left, I don't think any branch of Christendom in history, or now, has ever really taken seriously:-
quote:
“You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you, but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. Whoever desires to be first among you shall be your bondservant, even as the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
That's Matt 20:25ff, from the WEB Bible to avoid copyright problems. It's also at Mk 10:42ff and Lk 22:25ff, and in another form at Jn 12:5ff.
Second
I'm not really in sympathy with Bash Camps. They have worked for some people, but for them to work for you, you've really got to be the 'right sort of person', conventionally public school, rather sporty, southern and perhaps a bit spiritually complacent. But they haven't disappeared. I'm fairly sure this organisation is their successor.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I didn't say that I was in sympathy with Bash Camps, although I grew up in Crusaders which was founded with the specific aim of reaching the next tier down of children, i.e. hose who went to independent day schools.
I had never heard of the Titus Trust but, according to a well-known online encycopledia, they are the direct successor to the Bash Camps as "Nash remained on the staff of Scripture Union until 1965. David Fletcher became responsible for the camps, which continue today, under the auspices of the Titus Trust". Intriguingly, Fletcher is said to be the son of a Labour politician and has allegedly said that "Alpha as: "basically the Iwerne (i.e. "Bash") camp talk scheme with charismatic stuff added on".
[ 26. April 2015, 13:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
First
All this talk about Holy Trinity Brompton, Alpha, their admiration for success and fondness for the corridors of power isn't remotely unique to them. Whether we're talking about Popes, Patriarchs, Bishops, or the darlings of the ecclesiastical left, I don't think any branch of Christendom in history, or now, has ever really taken seriously <snip>
Whilst that is true, I don't think any other group holds as much sway in the UK at the moment. Certainly in England, RC holds very little power (outside of their own schools, which seems a bit of an anomaly), the Conservative Evangelicals are tiny, fractious and ignored (politically) outside of N Ireland, the historically black churches have little influence outside of their own community, the Methodists have disintegrated to the point that they're almost non-existent outside of town or city centres and so on.
There are various charismatic movements from the house-churches (NFI, Vineyard etc) but I don't think any of these have much impact outside of their associations with the strong centres of Anglican charisma such as St Andrew's (IIRC) Chorlewood, Holy Trinity Brompton, Holy Trinity Cheltenham, and other associated large charismatic Anglican churches in places like Sheffield (and probably others I don't know the names of).
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I didn't say that I was in sympathy with Bash Camps, although I grew up in Crusaders which was founded with the specific aim of reaching the next tier down of children, i.e. hose who went to independent day schools.
I'm sorry, I do not believe that is the case. My family were in Crusaders from the beginning, and it was set up as a parachurch organisati'on by Free Churches apparently as a counter-weight to the Boys Brigade, Covenanters and Pathfinders.
My family never went to independent day schools and I've never met anyone from that demographic in Crusaders. Very often the leadership were from the upwardly mobile middle classes, including solicitors, estate agents, bank managers etc, but they also drew in many from the aspirational working classes.
I am sure it depended on geographically where the Crusader class was, but in South London where my family came from, there was no link to independent education at all.
I'd be surprised if there is any evidence at all that the Crusaders Union was set up "specific aim of reaching the next tier down of children, i.e. hose who went to independent day schools"
quote:
I had never heard of the Titus Trust but, acording to a well-known online encycopledia, they are the direct successor to the Bash Camps as "Nash remained on the staff of Scripture Union until 1965. David Fletcher became responsible for the camps, which continue today, under the auspices of the Titus Trust". Intriguingly, Fletcher is said to be the son of a Labour politician and has allegedly said that "Alpha as: "basically the Iwerne camp talk scheme with charismatic stuff added on".
Scripture Union was a different beast again. And there are several organisations which have been set up over the years specifically to provide holidays to privately educated school children, such as West Runton, now run in co-ordination with the SU https://westrunton.org.uk/
Personally, I think most of these things have splintered into tiny thiefdoms with no tangible reason why they are run separately - and there seems very little difference today between SU and Urban Saints (Crusaders Union).
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Mmm ... I wonder how old you are? I ask that since Crusaders certainly has morphed hugely since it began, especially since the 1970s, and now takes folk from a wide demographic. But I still maintain that, when it was started in 1906, in Crouch End (itself a fairly swish area then as now) it was for boys (later girls) who were too posh to go to the hoi-polloi Sunday Schools but weren't at boarding schools. It wasn't Free Church but undenominational - until around the 1970s groups were not allowed to be affiliated with local churches (now they have to be).
The group I attended in North London in the 60s was strongly (but not entirely) Independent School oriented. Its leaders came from across the denominations although the strongest influences were Anglican and Baptist - the "good Evangelical church" in the area being St. Margaret's, Edgware.
It was also notable that many of the Crusader classes in those days were in "good" areas - e.g. Morningside and Corstorphine in Edinburgh, Cherry Hinton in Cambridge, Carshalton other places in what were then the outer London suburbs.
Crusaders' motto was always written in NT Greek until at least the 70s! Surely that's posh!
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I was involved in Crusaders from the 1980s, my father was involved since the 1950s and his relatives were involved since it started.
I'd also note that some of the places you've mentioned such as Carshalton were indeed centres of the Crusaders (and had their own Crusader halls, which I don't think happened elsewhere to any great extent), but were considerably less 'posh' in the early 20 century period.
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arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
The traditional history of the Crusaders was that the missionary who started it (I forget the name at the moment) dragged in boys from the street who were too disruptive to go to Sunday School.
There was always a considerable tension with local churches who often saw Crusaders as dragging kids away from their own congregations and into their own halls, classes and structures. Unlike the Boys Brigade, which seemed to be much more closely aligned with a specific church congregation.
My perception (and from conversations I have had with people who were in the movement their whole lives in the latter part of the 20 century) is that it sat most comfortably with free churches, who would have their own Sunday Schools and then populate the Crusader class on Sunday afternoon. I understand that the Anglican system positively hated it because the teaching was very much in opposition to conventional Anglican practice and the leaders often resisted efforts by the Anglican structure (and, in fact almost anyone else from local churches) to control them.
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arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
But I would also agree that all Christian youth organisations have morphed considerably. Crusaders has become the Urban Saints and now has a much more charismatic vibe than it had in the 1980s and 1990s.
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arse
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
The late Cecil J Allen, a name which anyone with the remotest claim to be a train nerd should recognise, was involved with the Crusaders. He arranged Crusader Special trains - which of course were then timed and had their performance reported. He was Brethren.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Thanks Enoch, I was going to say that I thought the early Crusaders often were associated with Brethren, but I didn't because I wasn't sure if I'd imagined hearing that.
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arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I note from a couple of old references I just looked up that the Crusaders Union was often portrayed as a largely Brethren scripture reading class, and that it predominantly targeted privately educated schoolboys.
Which appears to support what Baptist Trainfan was saying, but is certainly not my family background. Very interesting.
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arse
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I was in Crusaders for most of the 70s and into the early 80s, and my experience chimes very much with mr cheesy's. We were far from 'independent day school boys' (in my case, rough-as-a-badger's-arse comp) and the leaders were mainly from independent or Anglican evangelical churches in town (which was Reading).
Having later been a leader at SU camps, the demographics were probably a bit different - SU being more inner-city and unchurched kids, Crusaders being more suburban churched kids. Not being privately educated, and not privately educating my own children, I wasn't even aware of the existence or effect of Iwerne or 'Bash camps' until I was working in a ConEvo church in the mid-90s.
My son is still involved in Scouts, and ISTM that the Crusader camps I went on as a child were very much like Scout camps, with added God. And I couldn't then, or now, identify them with any particular left- or right-wing emphasis.
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Forward the New Republic
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I tried an ex-Crusaders' thread in All Saints once, and I don't think any of you showed up!
(Bembridge 76, Polzeath 77-78, Isles of Scilly 1979, Ridgeway 1981(?), Westbrook NYHP 1977/8 8/9 9/80 80/81 81/82 IIRC...)
Crusaders introduced me to Anglicans (no, really!), and my records indicate that a certain shipmate now bishop was on at least one of the above camps with me. But there was definitely a lot of Brethren input too where I was. And I went to a direct grant, subsequently independent school.
On reflection there was a bit of the Bash camp ethos about Westbrook in particular, and it was certainly very formative for me. The difference I think was that this training was very open-ended: it wasn't a plot to set everyone off on a path or ordained ministry and/or high influence.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The late Cecil J Allen, a name which anyone with the remotest claim to be a train nerd should recognise, was involved with the Crusaders. He arranged Crusader Special trains - which of course were then timed and had their performance reported. He was Brethren.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I tried an ex-Crusaders' thread in All Saints once, and I don't think any of you showed up!
(Bembridge 76, Polzeath 77-78, Isles of Scilly 1979, Ridgeway 1981(?), Westbrook NYHP 1977/8 8/9 9/80 80/81 81/82 IIRC...)....
On reflection there was a bit of the Bash camp ethos about Westbrook in particular, and it was certainly very formative for me. The difference I think was that this training was very open-ended: it wasn't a plot to set everyone off on a path or ordained ministry and/or high influence.
I did Westbrook in 66, Polzeath in 68, Festiniog Railway work camp in 69, then Tent Officer at Westbrook in 72/73. And I worked in the Bookroom for 3 months in 1974.
I agree about the leadership training - I remember a really excellent weekend at All Nations Christian College around 1972. Theologically it was quite demanding!
Interestingly, some of the leaders of my own class were quite "liberal" in theology. Back in the mid-60s we were getting up to 120 on a Sunday afternoon!
[ 26. April 2015, 16:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I agree about the leadership training - I remember a really excellent weekend at All Nations Christian College around 1972.
I did another unofficial one manned by Crusader leaders at some kind of convent in Warminster!
It was however a bit unnerving to discover the existence of "Q cards", confidential records of attendees kept by camp leaders and sent back to the local Crusader class leaders.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
One of our young people, a couple of years ago, went to a weekend arranged by a local Christian youth organisation (not Crusaders).
On the Tuesday I got phoned up by one of the leaders who asked if I wanted to chat about her spiritual experience. I did, but I was slightly discomfited by the call, even though the leader was not at all pressurising.
[ 26. April 2015, 16:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Interesting!
Anyway, Urban Saints seem to me to have rejected the bible study class model and seem to be trying to be into setting up regular "worship sessions" for young people instead. The regional tent meeting seems to be attempting to be a smaller version of New Wine. My daughter attended an SU holiday a few years ago and it was almost entirely a worship session with visions, tongues etc. She was not impressed.
This is my obs having seen Urban Saints in a local baptist/evangelical church having not even thought about it for many years.
Maybe these are isolated and not reflective of the whole of US or SU, but this has definitely changed since my youth.
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Polly
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# 1107
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Posted
I wonder how much of this thread is about wanting to put certain church streams in boxes?
I think the charismatic scene has become far more nuanced in the last 10 years.
In addition I would suggest that geography and where a church is based has significance when discussing political leanings.
My parents church in mid-sussex is probably one of the more liberal NFI churches around but I'd bet they are generally in the Conservative camp being in the heart of the Tory belt.
I wonder what political direction NFI churches in Newcastle and Manchester and generally in the north would lean?
Vineyard churches I would suggest have been more along the lines (traditionally) of being Lib Dems because of their rich emphasis on Kingdom theology.
My local Vineyard have a very successful (if that is the correct terminally) Food Bank and I think they would shudder to consider leaning towards the Conservatives.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Polly
Well, maybe this is more promising?
I'd hope so. For some time now, ISTM that more socially challenging teachers are much more likely to be seen at Greenbelt than New Wine. I don't think Jim Wallis has been invited back to New Wine since his moving and passionate accounts of his struggles to prevent the Iraq war.
And there is a good deal to be said for getting Brian McLaren to talk about his personal pilgrimage over hot button issues and ungenerous orthodoxy.
Maybe Mark Bailey will risk a bit of controversy? We'll see. I'd like to see it. More nuanced and varying views are generally encouraged by having a bit of diversity around.
And not wishing to provoke a DH tangent, I mention another possibility in passing. Mark Bailey might also consider getting the Campolos (Tony and Peggy) to do their double act over the gay issue (on which they disagree). I've heard that's opened a few closed shutters, let a bit of air in.
[ 27. April 2015, 08:51: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, maybe this is more promising?
I like his bullet points a lot - but another Leadership™ Conference™?? I think that's my hot-button issue right there [runs away screaming]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Whilst that is true, I don't think any other group holds as much sway in the UK at the moment. Certainly in England, RC holds very little power (outside of their own schools, which seems a bit of an anomaly), the Conservative Evangelicals are tiny, fractious and ignored (politically) outside of N Ireland, the historically black churches have little influence outside of their own community, the Methodists have disintegrated to the point that they're almost non-existent outside of town or city centres and so on.
There are various charismatic movements from the house-churches (NFI, Vineyard etc) but I don't think any of these have much impact outside of their associations with the strong centres of Anglican charisma such as St Andrew's (IIRC) Chorlewood, Holy Trinity Brompton, Holy Trinity Cheltenham, and other associated large charismatic Anglican churches in places like Sheffield (and probably others I don't know the names of).
Apart from the 26 Lords Spiritual, is there any Christian group that has any sway in the UK at the moment outside its own circles ? Even they don't always speak with one voice. And one doesn't get much impression that the establishment takes much notice of them unless it's convenient for them.
Until quite recently, the Kirk had quite a lot of influence through its informal communication channels with the Scottish Labour Party, but with the latter in melt down, that's past also.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I agree with Polly that geodemographic issues affect the 'evangelical vote' in much the same way as they affect everyone else. My guess would be that you'd have as diverse a range of political views within, say, an NFI congregation as you would in a sample taken from a similar demographic (age, background, social class etc etc) within the area from which the congregation was drawn.
I'm not sure I agree with Polly that the charismatic scene has become more nuanced over the last 10 years - except, perhaps, on certain DH issues.
That's not to single out the charismatic evangelical scene for censure - I doubt if any of the other groups/traditions have become more nuanced during the last decade either.
That said, I do think that the charismatic renewal is capable of accelerating in different directions - as, by its very nature, it is a movement that is a continual state of flux and development ... giddyingly so at times.
However, for those sectors within the movement that have been able to get off the revivalist roller-coaster 'new thing' mentality, I suspect what we're seeing is a gradual 'calming down' into a principled form of charismatic evangelical quietism ... allied, in some quarters, with an more activist approach towards social issues.
Hence my contention that the Vineyard is heading into what might be termed 'evangelical Quaker' territory - which is no bad thing in my book.
This makes sense as Wimber came from an evangelical Quaker background so elements of all that and the kind of 'Celebration Discipline' Richard Foster ethos is part of its spiritual DNA - and I suspect will continue to be so once the more 'signs and wonders' style of Kingdom emphasis has receded in favour or a more 'social' one.
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Apart from the 26 Lords Spiritual, is there any Christian group that has any sway in the UK at the moment outside its own circles ?
Perhaps not, but they like to think they have. Certainly I imagine there was much excitement within NFI at the (controversial) rise of former Tory candidate Philippa Stroud within the DWP, who I recall declaring her ambition (at the turn of the millenium) to be "getting the abortion laws of England changed during her lifetime".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Certainly I imagine there was much excitement within NFI at the (controversial) rise of former Tory candidate Philippa Stroud within the DWP, who I recall declaring her ambition (at the turn of the millenium) to be "getting the abortion laws of England changed during her lifetime".
Will it shock you to learn that she was a guest speaker at a number of HTB/Alpha events?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Not really. She kind of epitomises my ambivalence to the whole thing. I think she and hubby did some good and appreciated social action back in the day, and I'm not at all sure the scandal from the time of the 2010 election didn't include misrepresentation.
But her political ambitions (and perhaps family connections?) seemed to get her an easy ride as a woman within NFI, and as has been said more generally upthread, her perceived political influence was hugely out of proportion to actual impact.
It certainly looked/sounded as if her political engagement might be with a view to pursuing a single policy issue, whereas I would hope Christians engaged in politics would be competent across the whole gamut of government.
I wonder (and despair) at how often good people get instrumentalised (if that's an English word) by 'Christian' power brokers without realising it.
[ 27. April 2015, 11:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I wonder (and despair) at how often good people get instrumentalised (if that's an English word) by 'Christian' power brokers without realising it.
You only have to look at how Christian sportsmen and women are treated to know how that's going to go.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
And here was I wondering where this Jonathan Edwards fitted into the thread.
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Polly
Shipmate
# 1107
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Posted
If we cast aside her political preferences I think Mrs Stroud is a good example of what I mean by nuance within the NFI camp.
Social action and the churches response to it was never absent before Simon Petitt's prophetic words in the early 1990's (I think) as plenty of NFI churches did social action. It was just that this was all a side to the churches main vision and goals.
Petitts prophecy challenged the church to seek social action be put at the heart of what the church does. In my mind this is when the major shift begun.
Ever since NFI churches realised this they began to see thesocial action work they were involved in (homeless shelters, food banks etc) challenge their faith, their outlook and their political understandings.
I guess this was really difficult for some as they have always had their 'family values' driving political leanings but something very tangible was provoking people to lean in another direction.
This is what I mean by 'nuanced'. Not that people within NFI churches were moving away from their traditional (and safe) right wing policies but that they are trying to hold these in one hand but also feeling the considerable weight of social action in another.
Where I think Vineyard had a better grasp was through their Kingdom theology. This seems to be a greater priority than (don't read lesser) the priorities concerning the various DH topics.
Further up the thread the matter of the prosperity gospel was mentioned. Some of my FB friends have quoted the likes of Osteen and Meyers.
I'd be interested in people's thoughts to how and why someone can be so clued up concerning social action and still give space to the likes of Meyers and Osteen.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
I'd be interested in people's thoughts to how and why someone can be so clued up concerning social action and still give space to the likes of Meyers and Osteen.
That's easy. Social action does not always equate with social, let alone ecclesiastical inclusion.
I think a lot of middle-class churches like to have a social action programme, possibly with good intentions, but start having major problems at the prospect of poor and, by middle-class lights, "unsanctified" people becoming fully-fledged church members who are treated just the same as everybody else. There's a lot of tokenism.
[I'm not saying this is true of Philippa Stroud (I didn't know her well enough to judge), but it was certainly my experience in some quarters of NFI. I well remember one senior leader's disdainful comment on arriving in a French NFI church, "this is a bit of a breadline operation, isn't it"?]
[ETA and to even things up, I wouldn't say Simon Pettit, whose message I was interpreting that night and who I did know personally, was like that at all. And I suspect it was he who, from the hereafter, whispered "remember the poor" in Pope Francis' ear...]
[ 27. April 2015, 15:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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