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Source: (consider it) Thread: What things should be free as in beer?
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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I nominate university and tech college tuition. 25 countries do it for free of for nominal fees: university and technical college tuition, including Germany, France, Ireland, Norway...

Funding? In Canada a couple of years ago it was shown that all tuition could be paid by cancelling tax breaks and exploration breaks to just oil companies alone. Sounds simple to me.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
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Not free, but health care should be accessible to all. If it were free, it would rapidly consume the entire GDP of a country.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I nominate university and tech college tuition. 25 countries do it for free of for nominal fees

I'm still looking for a satisfactory explanation for why universities are so expensive in the US these days. It's not because of a reduction in government subsidy (yes, that happened, but can't come close to explaining the increase) and it's not because professors are making enormous salaries (they aren't - in fact, given the increasing use of adjuncts, perhaps the opposite has happened).

"Where has the money gone" is a simple enough question, but finding the answer seems complicated.

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Palimpsest
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There are several arguments offered for why tuition in US colleges has soared.

One reason is the Student Loan program. A university can raise tuition and know that the students can simply take out larger loans.
Given the cheap credit, the schools build luxurious dorms and expensive athletic facilities.


The second reason is the "buy your way up" approach, where a mediocre school builds research facilities, pays top dollar for superior faculty and achieves a reputation as a high end educational institution. Unfortunately, this comes by not only grant but by raising tuition. The high end faculty don't teach the students that much but that doesn't stop the students from paying for it and the adjuncts teaching them from getting paid poverty level wages.

Those who benefit from all of this are the administrators who now run modern universities.

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Not free, but health care should be accessible to all. If it were free, it would rapidly consume the entire GDP of a country.

It's (as close as makes no difference) to free in Scotland, and it barely consumes 10% of GDP.
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Golden Key
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--Basic Internet access (pref. at least low-level broadband).

--Everyone gets at least 4 wks. of paid vacation every year. (Lots of American workers don't get *any*.) Plus a way for the poor, elderly, disabled, veterans, anyone on any kind of benefits to get an all-expenses paid vacation (at least 2 wks. each year), even if it's at a very simple place. I heard that France has places where the poor can vacation very cheaply.

--I rather like the idea in the novel "The Fifth Sacred Thing", by Starhawk. Everyone gets a basic income (and housing, too, I think). So no poverty. But most people want more than the basics, so they work.

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Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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# 14322

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Where can I get free beer please?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

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# 13049

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The First Book of Discipline (1560) the document which set out the vision of a post-Reformation Scotland, states:

If they are found apt to letters and learning, then may they (we mean neither the sons of the rich, nor yet the sons of the poor) not be permitted to reject learning; but must be charged to continue their study, so that the commonwealth may have some comfort by them.

I.e. clever boys, rich or poor, owed a duty to the state to continue their education, because their brains were regarded as a national asset to be used for the good of the state. And the state had to pay for the education of the intelligent poor boy, for the ultimate benefit of the state.

It's still a good argument for free tuition.

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North East Quine

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(missed edit window - obviously, the "boys only" aspect should be left behind in the C16th.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Russ
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Nothing is costless to produce. Anything that is free at point of use is being paid for by those who choose not to use it.

So "free broadband" means that those who have no interest in finding out about computers and Internet and all that modern technology stuff, or who believe that this is the death of Society As We Know It, are compelled to subsidise other people's computer gaming, twittering, rock video collecting etc.

Similarly, "free housing" means that those who are by choice tramps and travellers are compelled to pay towards the bricks-and-mortar for everybody else.

"Free university tuition" means those who choose to leave school at 16 (or whatever is the minimum age in your country) have to pay for those who choose to put off getting a job as long as possible.

Seems to me that the things that should qualify for being free at point of use are those things that no reasonable person could not want. Drinking water and basic health care (painkillers, antibiotics, access to medical knowledge) would qualify.

But I'd argue that an Amish person (as an example of a world-rejecting point of view) should be allowed to opt out of paying for anything they could reasonably want to have nothing to do with.

Best wishes,

Russ

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mr cheesy
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An interesting point on water: since 2010 there has been a Human Right to Water and Sanitation agreed by the UN.

But it is emphatically not about a service which is free for users. Safe water and sanitation costs money. The idea that it can be done without payment is a fallacy. Someone always pays.

Thus the HRWS talks about equitable access and affordability of the service.

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arse

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itsarumdo
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I tend to agree with Russ. There is a lot of junk talked about human rights - like access to internet and TV is a human right... and lots of things should be free - but someone has to pay for them. Maybe beer should be free? Generally, people value things by their financial cost, and a recurring problem with provision of "free" this and that via a state-organised subscription scheme (taxation followed by redistribution) is that the attitude to this thing then subtly (and not so subtly) shifts to it being a "right" an then to it being taken for granted and not really valued as much as it could/should be. This is a parallel process to the state taking responsibility for things that were communal responsibility - the function becomes largely separated from community consciousness, and there is an immediate loss of communal glue. I'm not a radical right wing (what would be in the US) anti-federal member of the NRA - I agree that there should be communal provision for people who cannot afford things. I cannot honestly say that that across the board "free-ness" (whilst appealing to some parts of my nature) is the bearer of all things good.

e.g. adult education. In the UK this was provided from the late 1800's by the WEA - where people who had a lot of knowledge in various subjects shared that for a nominal fee with largely people who had very little. The nominal fee was peanuts, but the fact that it had to be paid and the people coming were very poor meant that they really really wanted to learn. The system worked very well, until the State decided it was a good idea and offered to fund it. Since then there have been booms and busts and distortions for political ends, and we are just now entering another bust phase. Before this bust began, the fee charged by Adult Ed was way more than the WEA used to charge, because of the vast administrative overhead. And the courses were increasingly geared towards NVQs by a government that cannot understand that education for its own sake is far more nutritious to society than a workforce with lowest common denominator qualification certificates.

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Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

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Education - up to first degree level.

Health care at the point of use.

Basic gas and electricity provision, and minimal usage. This should be paid for by increasing the costs over a basic minimal level.

Basic internet access I would also support, as it has become a crucial part of out society.

And yes, these would have to be paid for by everyone. But education benefits the society as a whole. Everyone uses the health care services at some point. They are about improving society, so that everyone benefits.

I would add that museums should be free, but as they are, I can just say excellent. The government - that is everyone - should pay for those things that enhance society, and which all benefit from, even if only a few benefit directly.

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Boogie

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# 13538

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Transport, for everyone on minimum wage or less.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Where can I get free beer please?

Come round here, I have some fabulous dunkel hefeweizen and a nice garden to drink it in.


[Big Grin]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Moo

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As far as the rising US university tuition is concerned, one factor is the great increase in the numbers of university administrators. AIUI many of these administrative posts have been added to insure compliance with various government regulations.

One problem with free university tuition is that very few people who go to university are from poor families. Free tuition would subsidize those who are better off.

Moo

[ 26. April 2015, 11:39: Message edited by: Moo ]

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Schroedinger's cat

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One problem with free university tuition is that very few people who go to university are from poor families. Free tuition would subsidize those who are better off.

Is this cause and effect? Because tuition costs a lot, only those from wealthy families can afford it. If it was free, maybe more people from poorer families would be able to consider it.

Of course, it may be that the actual cost is not the only issue - the not earning for 3 years might also be an issue. But it might start to open up possibilities for people less well off.

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Mudfrog
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# 8116

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Not free, but health care should be accessible to all. If it were free, it would rapidly consume the entire GDP of a country.

It's (as close as makes no difference) to free in Scotland, and it barely consumes 10% of GDP.
How can it be free if it's paid for out of taxation?

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Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Not free, but health care should be accessible to all. If it were free, it would rapidly consume the entire GDP of a country.

It's (as close as makes no difference) to free in Scotland, and it barely consumes 10% of GDP.
How can it be free if it's paid for out of taxation?
Well if it were free (as in not paid for by anybody) then obviously it wouldn't claim any GDP...
And while there is of course a difference between (by some means fixed a fixed fee) then free at the time of use and some magic fairy supplier. In terms of effect "as close as makes no difference" seems pretty fair. Optional, then Insurance based systems would then come next, then pay at site.

I think (OU style) adult education has the potential to scale so nicely that it ought to be mostly prepaid and permanently available. (The opposite approach seems to have been taken, which is not fair on future gens [Frown] )

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blackbeard
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And another vote for OU; it does have the problem, though, of soaking up free time; and if employment and family responsibilities leave no free time, what then?

Another education pathway; apprenticeship - we used to have a really good system available locally, highly regarded by all including employers; it got Thatchered of course. Apprenticeships seem to be coming back into favour, slowly.

And - this may be where I make myself unpopular - University full-time education. It seems to happen too often that the new graduate cannot find a job, and after a spell of unemployment takes a relatively unskilled and low-paid job in which his/her skills and knowledge are not used. This after 3 or 4 years' University education, and a mountain of debt ... The only solution I can think of is making Uni entry much more selective (based on A level results, presumably), resulting in fewer students and maybe a generally higher level of achievement. With fewer students to fund it might then be possible to fully fund Uni education. Is this being elitist?

Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Free public wifi is everywhere here. I tend to encounter it most places in North America. Five years ago in Europe we were finding pay walls for it, but one year ago more often free. In remote areas in the north, cell phone towers which provide data charge for service but not the actual cost of service.

It seems to that free things engineer social policy. Car parking on streets or in our city run parking lots is very cheap or free. Bus fare is the same cost as 2 hours of parking in the downtown. So people drive.

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\_(ツ)_/

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I think the problem with some or all of these ideas is that someone has to pay for someone else to have a free service.

Why should the poorest (who proportionally pay the most tax) support the upwardly mobile to get better jobs via their taxes paying for free education? Why should the binman be paying for the education of the barrister?

I propose that there is no such thing as free, and that trying to share things in common only leads to a Tragedy of the Commons situation.

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arse

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Pigwidgeon

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# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Where can I get free beer please?

I was pleasantly surprised yesterday at the grocery store. A local brewery was giving out free samples. [Smile]

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Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think the problem with some or all of these ideas is that someone has to pay for someone else to have a free service.

Why should the poorest (who proportionally pay the most tax) support the upwardly mobile to get better jobs via their taxes paying for free education? Why should the binman be paying for the education of the barrister?

I propose that there is no such thing as free, and that trying to share things in common only leads to a Tragedy of the Commons situation.

Data? Here's data against your speculation. Saskatchewan community pastures.
quote:
sixty federal and fifty-six provincial community pastures in Saskatchewan. They occupied 2.57 million acres (1.04 million hectares) of land, most of which is under native pastures. These lands are used primarily for grazing cattle. In fact, federal community pastures have served 2,540 producers with 73,000 cattle and 72,000 calves, per annum, on average. Similarly, on provincial community pastures 2,500 producers had 68,000 cattle and 53,000 calves
The "tragedy of the commons" occurs when it is mismanaged, not because it exists. I;ve also heard nothing but positive about the free transit (light rail system) in the downtown of the city of Calgary. No tragedy there.

So I call B.S. on the tragedy idea.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Nothing is costless to produce. Anything that is free at point of use is being paid for by those who choose not to use it.

Or else some people who do use it are paying double. Which if they can afford to do so, and the people they're paying for cannot, may well be equitable.
Restricting access only to people who have paid costs time and money in any case. If you have a toll road, it costs money to operate the toll booth. You need cashiers (or automatic cash points and assistants) in supermarkets.
In many cases the benefits of making something freely available to everyone outweighs the costs. While not everyone will use every road in a particular town, the overall benefit to everyone in the town of having good quality roads for everyone may be greater than the cost to the people paying. In those cases, the distinction between using / not using breaks down.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think the problem with some or all of these ideas is that someone has to pay for someone else to have a free service.

Why should the poorest (who proportionally pay the most tax) support the upwardly mobile to get better jobs via their taxes paying for free education? Why should the binman be paying for the education of the barrister?

I propose that there is no such thing as free, and that trying to share things in common only leads to a Tragedy of the Commons situation.

It seems to me that the solution is to change the tax system, not cut public services. Additionally, while the poorest often do pay more as a proportion of their income, even if all the tax they pay disappeared they still wouldn't be able to afford to pay for education or healthcare themselves. The notion that the bin man pays for the education of the barrister is a false one, even under the current tax system.

I should also point out that we still have common grazing here, and it is reasonably well managed by a grazing committee in each township.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
It seems to happen too often that the new graduate cannot find a job, and after a spell of unemployment takes a relatively unskilled and low-paid job in which his/her skills and knowledge are not used.

As opposed to the prospective university student not taking a degree, but going straight in to a relatively unskilled and low-paid job?

Or is this going to turn into the "we should encourage more people to train as plumbers" argument?

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I rather like the idea in the novel "The Fifth Sacred Thing", by Starhawk. Everyone gets a basic income (and housing, too, I think). So no poverty.

Article on a small city that is providing simple but decent housing to the most hardcore of homeless because it's cheaper to provide an apartment than keep throwing the guys in jail. And then the surprise of finding some of the men got off drink and got jobs because they had a stable place to live. The housing came first, not first a demand to clean up your life then we might get you housing.
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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
As opposed to the prospective university student not taking a degree, but going straight in to a relatively unskilled and low-paid job?

Or is this going to turn into the "we should encourage more people to train as plumbers" argument?

Yes but ...

I can't count how many young people I know who got a first degree then went on to train in a completely different field. My two sons included.

Most of those went on to vocational degrees which had jobs as the end objective/result.

Could youngsters not be encouraged to think much more carefully about what they want to do with their hard won educations? I know that if my two had we'd have saved a small fortune, and so would the taxpayer.

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I think that might be a topic for a separate thread, Boogie.

My first degree was in law and I qualified as a solicitor, without ever having any great interest or passion for it. It was one of those careers that everybody thought was a safe, wise choice and I was strongly encouraged to choose it.

I chucked my legal career aged 29, and spent 6 years paying myself through an Open University degree in a subject I was actually interested in, while sprogging.

If I could advise my 18 year old self, I'd say - follow your heart, don't think in terms of a career. But equally well, someone else might want to advise their 18 year old self to get a grip and choose something with a clear career path at the end of it.

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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A generation or so ago a college degree was somewhat rare and all but guaranteed a job, so more people wanted a university degree for the guarantee of being wanted on the job market. The flood of new degrees meant they no longer made you stand out, so the normal for a "guaranteed job" became a masters then a PhD. Now even PhDs can't find job, there are more PhDs that the market needs.

I have lots of friends who got a teacher's degree because we were told (back in the 60s) get a teachers degree you'll always find a job. Not true anymore.

Convince society a plumbing license is a lifetime guarantee of a good job and you'll flood the plumber job market with more applicants than jobs.

Trouble is, employers now require degrees for jobs that don't need degrees, just because they can. The market value of the degree is low, but it's become the "entry level" requirement the way high school graduation was several decades ago.

I remember as a kid meeting adults who had a 5th grade or 8th grade education and supported their families just fine, today you wouldn't get hired to sweep the floor on a 5th grade education much less become branch manager of a local business.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:

If I could advise my 18 year old self, I'd say - follow your heart, don't think in terms of a career. But equally well, someone else might want to advise their 18 year old self to get a grip and choose something with a clear career path at the end of it.

Yes, it probably should be a whole separate thread.

My eldest son followed his passion (Ecology) and got first and Masters degrees in it. Then he found that all the jobs involved sitting tapping in someone else's data while they were swinging through the trees doing the stuff he really wanted to do. So, aged 28 he began a nursing degree.

The other did first and Masters degrees in engineering, then could only get shop floor jobs which he could have done straight from school. He is now an airline pilot for Easyjet - but he could mend the plane if needed [Biased]

I know too many who did similar - maybe good, properly informed (free, to get back to the OP!) careers advice would save taxpayers a fortune?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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itsarumdo
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It took me 20 years after leaving school to find what I wanted to do - a degree should firstly be about learning how to think, and the vocational bit should be second. Also, most people on my first degree course (mining engineering) ended up elsewhere - finance, research, education, sales, etc - the initial degree and experience were typical of any degree in geological sciences - you learn how to think in 3D and how to juggle lots of factors and minimal information to come up with a sensible answer... this skills are useful almost anywhere - well maybe not serving Big Macs.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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This is a tangent I suppose, but I must strongly disagree with the idea that young people should form their life work direction at an early age. Frankly, work cuts into the day, and may be the author of much unhappiness if the choice is foreclosed on due to the ideas that a decision must be made and lived with. I have known far too many people who make good wages but are unfulfilled, unhappy, and as a consequence make others unhappy with them.

Why should libraries lend books for free, supported by a taxation system, and why primary and secondary education, but not the higher levels? I don't understand why the line is where it is.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I can't count how many young people I know who got a first degree then went on to train in a completely different field. My two sons included.

A classic liberal arts education is not a vocational qualification. The reason to study Chaucer, Shakespeare, Dickens or whoever is not to become qualified to teach English in schools.

(We could have a discussion about how many universities have become degree mills, and are all about qualifications rather than education, but I think that really is a separate thread.)

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Transport, for everyone on minimum wage or less.

Some years ago Mark Steel proposed that public transport should be paid for by those who do not use it.

btw, if you make your own beer it's very, very cheap.

[ 26. April 2015, 19:36: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One problem with free university tuition is that very few people who go to university are from poor families. Free tuition would subsidize those who are better off.

No longer true-- although that's a very recent shift. When I first started teaching in US univ. only 11 years ago, the vast majority of my students were from suburban middle- or high- income families. Today well over 2/3 of my students are the first college student in their family, many from immigrant families, most from lower income families. Many are receiving no financial assistance from families at all, almost all are heavily in debt-- with all that implies for future.

[ 26. April 2015, 20:48: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I rather like the idea in the novel "The Fifth Sacred Thing", by Starhawk. Everyone gets a basic income (and housing, too, I think). So no poverty.

Article on a small city that is providing simple but decent housing to the most hardcore of homeless because it's cheaper to provide an apartment than keep throwing the guys in jail. And then the surprise of finding some of the men got off drink and got jobs because they had a stable place to live. The housing came first, not first a demand to clean up your life then we might get you housing.
This has now been documented to the extent there are now in the US federal grants to assist cities in setting up permanent housing. I work with the homeless in one of the very few cities that has taken advantage of this. It is very tough going for all the predictable reasons-- bureaucracy on all levels, compassion fatigue, competing interests, budgeting whims, etc. And yet, it has been a slow-moving success. Each year we are moving more and more of our homeless into permanent houses. 5 years ago the emergency shelter I'm responsible for had to turn people (including families with children) away each night. This last season we were only 3/4 full most nights. I'm cautiously looking forward to the day we can have a party for the volunteers, eat up all the frozen lasagnes we've got stashed in the freezer, turn out the lights, shut the door and go home.

So yes, guaranteed housing should be high on our list.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Amorya

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
How can it be free if it's paid for out of taxation?

That's what "free as in beer" means.

It means that at the point where you are handed the thing, you do not have to give some money for it.

It doesn't mean it doesn't cost anyone any money ever. It means it doesn't cost the person benefitting from it any additional money compared to if they hadn't received the benefit.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Quite right Amorya.

From Gratis versus libre, wikipedia

quote:
Like "free beer", positive liberty promises equal access by all without cost or regard to income, of a given good (assuming the good exists).
Here's some things I think are not supportable as good and shouldn't be supported:

The Canadian gov't has decided as a run up to an election to subsidize children's activities with a tax break if you register the kiddies in sports, music and the like. It's not free, but the decision certainly would seem to engineer a social policy.

Likewise, corporations have tax breaks available to subsidize their taxes by pretending income is from another year in time. Neither of these are totally free, but they are in the direction of "free as in beer".

[ 27. April 2015, 18:27: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

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The tax system has always been used for social manipulation in support of government policy. Want to reduce the number of people smoking? Increase tax on tobacco. Want to encourage charitable giving? Introduce Gift Aid (or some equivalent form of tax break). Want to encourage children to be involved in sports? Offer tax subsidies to sports clubs (or some equivalent form of tax break).

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Russ
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quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
That's what "free as in beer" means.

It means that at the point where you are handed the thing, you do not have to give some money for it.

It doesn't mean it doesn't cost anyone any money ever. It means it doesn't cost the person benefitting from it any additional money compared to if they hadn't received the benefit.

Seems to me there are at least four types of "free beer":

- beer made by fairies, or by robots, or by slaves or other non-persons, that is totally free to people. Or that is produced naturally in the pitcher plants that grow wild by the roadside (harmless fantasy ? or not so harmless ? )

- beer home-made by friends and offered as an act of friendship, for which no money has changed hands

- a beer garden where you pay to go in but once in the beer is free, financed by the entry charge (lots of things work on this principle - you pay motor tax and can drive on any public road, pay a TV licence and watch individual programmes at no cost)

- beer paid for from general taxation (from teetotallers and drunkards alike. Probably as part of the usual thing - politicians spending people's money to buy their votes...)

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Enoch
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I still don't get the phrase 'free beer'. Beer isn't free. You have to pay for it. It isn't even freely available. If you're under 18 you can't buy it. Until well into my adult life, you couldn't buy it in a glass during the afternoon. You still can't buy it late at night or at breakfast time.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I still don't get the phrase 'free beer'. Beer isn't free. You have to pay for it. It isn't even freely available. If you're under 18 you can't buy it. Until well into my adult life, you couldn't buy it in a glass during the afternoon. You still can't buy it late at night or at breakfast time.

Yes, exactly. That's the difference between free-as-in-beer and free-as-in-speech.

It's a quote from an RMS essay that you can find here. You're right, of course - beer usually isn't free, but when someone is giving away free beer, it means that you get a beer and it doesn't cost you any money.

It doesn't mean that the beer spontaneously sprung into existence, or that the brewer didn't need to spend money to make it or anything else - just that the owner of the beer is giving you some. It also doesn't mean Russ's beer-at-no-marginal-cost, where you pay an entrance fee and then drink as much as you want.

Free-as-in-speech, by contrast, is about liberty rather than price. There's a lot of lack of liberty surrounding beer - even zero cost beer. You can't buy beer if you're underage. In many places, you can't be given beer (even by your parents) if you're underage. You can't drink beer in many streets or parks. You can't have open beer containers in your car in case the driver might drink some. You can brew your own beer - but not distill your own spirits.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
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Governments should tax all citizens to provide those services for some that benefit all.

Education (at least to some level) - we all benefit from living in a society with an educated workforce, so businesses have workers available who can do the jobs that help create the economic environment we want; and more generally so we can all communicate easily, I can write a note to my yard man because he was sent to school at taxpayer expense.

If some kind of education does not benefit society, but benefits only the individual student, then governments usually don't pay for it. That can differ by culture, where I live people are on their own to pay for music or art education, these have been cut from the schools.

Where I grew up a requirement of high school was to swim the length of a pool, tax money was used to teach minimal swimming skills because there are so many lakes and people are less likely to drown if they have been taught how to float and dog paddle. Drowning people cost the state money to try to rescue and provide emergency medical care. In a society where drowning people don't trigger use of expensive state resources, learning elementary water survival may be seen as an individual benefit not a societal one.

Public transportation helps reduce air pollution which keeps us all healthier, so providing and encouraging its use, perhaps by reduced or free fares, benefits all of society. That air pollution reduction means figuring out what routes and timings people will use if encouraged.

In the free housing for hard core homeless article I linked above, benefit to society was the goal, not supporting a few individuals at taxpayer expense. Hard core homeless get arrested a lot (loitering, illegal sleeping, theft of food or cigarettes), and they use emergency medical services a lot because of their exposure to elements and unsafe people. The free housing for a few at taxpayer expense saves the taxpayers money, a small apartment is a lot cheaper than a jail and a safe shelter reduces medical needs.

The problem is identifying which people helped in which ways benefit the whole community, so the help is justified by the benefit to the whole rather than being an unfair taxing of some solely for the benefit of others.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
where I live people are on their own to pay for music or art education, these have been cut from the schools.

Music and art (and, other cultural activities such as poetry) are expressions of society, they are the most powerful means we have of expressing who we are. They are the life blood of social interaction and identity. The best answer to a question like "what does it mean to be British?" is to point to our cultural products - our music, theatre, poetry, sculpture etc.

It is of vital importance that schooling provides a foundation in arts, just as it provides a foundation in sciences and other subjects. What is more, there should be an equal emphasis on funding the devleopment of professional artists as there is in the development of professional scientists, engineers or politicians. If you provide scholarships for talented scientists, engineers and footballers to attend college, then you should provide them for artists (perhaps you do, I admit to not quite understanding the US education system - all we hear about are scholarships for footballers).

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Gee D
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During the 1950s, university education here became almost entirely free - at least in practice - a now long-forgotten reform introduced by Robert Menzies. Those who obtained a sufficient mark in their final high school exams were awarded a scholarship, funded by the Commonwealth govt, and without any means test. My sisters and I obtained them. A means test was in place for those seeking a living allowance. In effect the scholarship worked to place a limit on the numbers obtaining a tertiary education, but I suspect that the bar was very low. I can recall only 1 person I knew at university who did not have one. She was a daughter of a wealthy family whose parents considered that they had the money to pay and that it would be wrong for their daughter to take a scholarship which could have benefitted someone in a less favoured financial position.

When Gough Whitlam came to power, his government abolished fees completely. Numbers attending university rose dramatically and the financial burden on Commonwealth funds rose to an unsustainable level. Subsequent governments re-imposed fees and have introduced a system whereby the government lends money to students to pay their fees with repayment being made via the taxation system once incomes have reached an indexed level. A side effect of both the Whitlam scheme and the present one has been the introduction of quotas for various subjects, with exceptionally high exam marks required to enter faculties such as medicine and law.

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
where I live people are on their own to pay for music or art education, these have been cut from the schools.

Music and art (and, other cultural activities such as poetry) are ... the life blood of social interaction and identity... there should be an equal emphasis on funding the devleopment of professional artists as there is in the development of professional scientists, engineers or politicians.
Many agree with you, but the people in a "what tangible thing have you done for me lately" government think of the arts as self-indulgence.

Each culture expresses its identified social values. Some cultures believe if one person goes hungry we the group suffer. They may well be right, but most of those cultures have been wiped out by aggressively individualist commercial industries (logging, mining). Expressing that value is left to charities in our culture.

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Basic Internet access (pref. at least low-level broadband).

--Everyone gets at least 4 wks. of paid vacation every year. (Lots of American workers don't get *any*.) Plus a way for the poor, elderly, disabled, veterans, anyone on any kind of benefits to get an all-expenses paid vacation (at least 2 wks. each year), even if it's at a very simple place. I heard that France has places where the poor can vacation very cheaply.

--I rather like the idea in the novel "The Fifth Sacred Thing", by Starhawk. Everyone gets a basic income (and housing, too, I think). So no poverty. But most people want more than the basics, so they work.

Everybody gets 4 weeks paid vacation? How about the government passes a law mandating that everybody purchase a time share? Of course, not everybody can afford a time share so time share subsidies would be required. Thing about time shares is you can always swap them out.

You already have the government providing everybody with a house, basic income, and four weeks of vacation. What doesn't count as basic? As I suggested on the Money Does Buy Happiness thread, why shouldn't the government just print enough money to insure that everybody gets $75,000 a year?

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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Provincial legislation is 2 weeks of vacation here. It be paid out and not taken, but this cannot be coercive.

I am aware that military in the USA get subsidized vacations, noticing this in Hawaii and Florida. Very cheap hotels. I recall talking to one family which was paying about 25% of the going rate. How might this be justifiable?

I also wonder about the free as in beer natural resources that companies exploit, like oil, minerals, trees, and most particularly water we're hearing about lately. Let alone use of highways for minimal fees which citizens pay for out of taxation. The royalties don't sound sensible at all, except we're hearing that they are in Norway, which has a sovereign wealth fund on behalf of their people.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged



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