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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Execution Of The Bali Nine...
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
....or possibly eight; at least that appears to be what has happened. I can't honestly remember a time when there has been so much negative press coverage of a country that imposes the death penalty (namely Indonesia). Personally, I object to the death penalty, so that's my cards on the table in this debate.
The Bali Nine consist of nine people who were caught trafficking drugs into Indonesia. One of them was an Australian, Andrew Chan, who subsequently became a Christian a prison. The group were caught in possession of eight kilo's of heroin with a current value of around €180,000, however even if you look at the travel records of Andrew Chan - one of the nine - you can see that he travelled to Indonesia a total of 23 times within a two year period and the suspicion has always been that he and the group had been trafficking drugs for quite some time. Indonesia has a paranoia about southern Philippines where drug use is a major problem and gang violence is at epidemic levels. The government suspects that Indonesia is being used by Australian drug traffickers as a gateway into the Philippines. Relations between Indonesia and Australia do not permit co-operation on tackling this issue as relations between the countries have broken down; most notably due to an uncovered spy plot uncovered by Indonesia where Australia attempted to tap government phones at the highest levels, the interference and subsequent empty promises regarding the independence of East Timor which led to an enormous refugee crisis and the claim of Australia over an oil field off the Indonesian coast of Timor which they claim belongs to them because while it is in Indonesian waters, they suggest it is still theirs due to it being on their teutonic plate.....all to name but of few of the silly shenanigans.
So that is some of the background. Now if I can play devil's advocate for a little. Andrew Chan and his crew knew the risk associated with drug trafficking in Indonesia - namely the death penalty - and they still did it. The Australian government has claimed that Andrew Chan is a pawn in a much larger game, but Chan himself has not given up any other accomplices or 'bosses' in his seven or eight years in prison. Thailand has the same system. The USA enacts the death penalty; yet there doesn't seem to be the same response. For instance; only hours after the executions took place Australia removed its embassy presence from Indonesia suggesting that the brutality of the death penalty has meant that diplomatic relations can no longer continue (not that they were any great shakes to begin with), but presumably Australia still has an embassy and continuing diplomatic relations with the USA and Thailand? Is there a weird double standard here, or am I missing something?
[ 29. April 2015, 08:39: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
There is a whiff of double standards, except that in the US I think capital punishment is usually reserved for murder cases, so there is a sort of lex talionis argument in play.
I was struck by the news that quote:
Mary Jane Fiesta Veloso was spared after her government appealed to Indonesia, saying a woman she had accused of planting drugs on her had handed herself in
which sounded like quite an altruistic gesture on the part of the latter and put me in mind of Romans 5:7, even if the woman in question presumably does not risk the death penalty in her home country.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I'm not sure there's a double standard on the part of the Australian government here unless it can be shown that they kept their ambassadors in the US and Thailand after those countries executed an Australian citizen.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
... For instance; only hours after the executions took place Australia removed its embassy presence from Indonesia suggesting that the brutality of the death penalty has meant that diplomatic relations can no longer continue (not that they were any great shakes to begin with), but presumably Australia still has an embassy and continuing diplomatic relations with the USA and Thailand? Is there a weird double standard here, or am I missing something?
I know next to nothing about this story but it's not a double standard. What makes it look as though that might be the case is that however popular parts of it may be for holidays, Indonesia is a grubby, corrupt and unattractive state. Nobody would really disagree with that verdict. However, there are two other differences.
1. The US retains the death penalty for murder. That is the crime for which Australia, like most other countries which have abolished execution, used to execute people. So the US is behind the times on a continuum Australia has followed. It's difficult to argue that something one used to do oneself is so outrageous that one won't talk to people who still do it.
Indonesia, though, has introduced the death penalty for a new crime. It's entitled to regard as bad. It doesn't have to kill people for it. Other states don't.
That's the big difference and the significant one.
2. The other one is that Indonesia is executing Australians. All states are entitled to stick up for their own, even their dodgy own.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
If there is any serious suggestion that the convictions were unsafe, it would be right to make a fuss. But I haven't heard that there has been. Otherwise- well, if you commit the crime, and if you're properly convicted, you take the sentence, wherever you're from. Don't expect Mummy in Canberra to get you out of it just because you come from a first world country.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Matt Black:
quote:
I'm not sure there's a double standard on the part of the Australian government here unless it can be shown that they kept their ambassadors in the US and Thailand after those countries executed an Australian citizen.
But that would suggest that diplomatic relations are all fine and dandy until one of your own faces the firing squad, gallows, electric chair whatever - then it suddenly becomes backward, brutal and corrupt. That seems to me to be a very weird double standard.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
But see point #2 in Enoch's post.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
If there is any serious suggestion that the convictions were unsafe, it would be right to make a fuss. But I haven't heard that there has been.
AIUI there have been for the French one, who has a last-minute appeal in progress.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
There's sticking up, as in offering consular assistance before conviction and to help people settle their affairs once convicted; and there's standing up as in recalling your ambassador because you seem to think that people should somehow be exempt just because they come from a high GDP country.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Euty:
quote:
AIUI there have been for the French one, who has a last-minute appeal in progress.
It's being reported here that this is in connection with her being required to testify against someone else who is also up on a drugs charge with whom she had a clear connection. It is therefore not an appeal; with the caveat that the reporting here is accurate.
Posted by Matt:
quote:
But see point #2 in Enoch's post.
I'm not sure I follow your point. Are you saying that Australia has a right to stand up for citizens no matter how bad (which I agree with) and therefore the issue of execution is a non issue until it is one of your own?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
It is hardly news that Indonesia has the death penalty for drug smuggling, nor is it news that they execute people. Prior to the arrest of the so-called Bali Nine Australians have been executed for drugs offences in Thailand, Singapore and Malaysia.
Whether or not we approve of the death penalty is irrelevant: the fact that smuggling of amounts of 1kg and over prompts an automatic death penalty has been known about for at least the last 20 years so people convicted cannot plead ignorance.
If Australia chooses to suspend diplomatic relations fair and good but surely it would be better if they (a) undertook education of their citizens about obeying the laws of the country they are in at any given time, and (b) explained that if their citizens commit capital crimes abroad there is nothing they can do to rescue them.
I find the existence of a death penalty abhorrent and the imposition of it indefensible but international law allows countries to make and impose their own penal code, which is what the Indonesians have done.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Various governments offered proper levels of consular assistance to all of those arrested in Indonesia. Despite newspaper headlines, there is no real doubt that the accused received a fair trial and that there subsequent appeals were also dealt with fairly*. For the Aust government to recall the ambassador is ridiculous beyond words and shows what a weak prime minister we have.
A few brief comments. There has been much attack on the Aust Federal police in not stopping the travel by those arrested in Indonesia and tried. Of course, there was not a scrap of evidence that any of the nine had committed any offence here and there was no legal basis to prevent their leaving the country. As others have noted, we do not make protest at the continued use of the death penalty in other countries, including the US. Finally, I don't recall much government protest against the execution of those found guilty of the Bali bombings.
Finally, as to L'Organist's comments: the possibility of conviction and the imposition of the death penalty is clearly drawn to the attention of every passport holder. It is reinforced by airport. And Australia has not broken off relationships, but simply withdrawn the ambassador.
*Much of the comment is basically along the lines that you could not expect any non-Western court to deliver a fair verdict or to operate under a fair system of law, to be wide open to corruption and injustice.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Matt:
quote:
But see point #2 in Enoch's post.
I'm not sure I follow your point. Are you saying that Australia has a right to stand up for citizens no matter how bad (which I agree with) and therefore the issue of execution is a non issue until it is one of your own?
Not a non-issue at all but more of an issue if they are?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Matt:
quote:
Not a non-issue at all but more of an issue if they are?
Thanks, I can see where you're coming from. I can't say I agree with it though, but I know that's my own bias against the death penalty leaking in.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I'm not sure I agree with it either; I was just attempting to get inside the minds of the Aussie foreign office on the whole 'double standards' point.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I think what has upset people in Australia is that the two young men were tried and convicted 10 years ago and have been in gaol since during which time it appears that they have made significant efforts to change their lives. Whether they had been rehabilitated is unclear, but the media insists they had. However, with a new Indonesian president came a change of management of people with drug offences as he decided it was a capital crime. To have the about face after 10 years seems bizarre and obviously political. I think all Australians agree that the young men should have been punished severely, but there is strong feeling in Oz against capital punishment. The government in Australia felt it had to make a strong response to what had happened, but at this stage they have only withdrawn the ambassador (maybe only temporarily) and will hold discussions with him. What I have found most disturbing is the media beat up of the whole affair. We have been bombarded with blow by blow accounts for weeks and the media would have us believe that the two young men were heroic in stature and maybe candidates for sainthood. It has been a soap opera beyond peer.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Whether or not we approve of the death penalty is irrelevant: the fact that smuggling of amounts of 1kg and over prompts an automatic death penalty has been known about for at least the last 20 years so people convicted cannot plead ignorance.
I'm not sure that's the end of the debate, though.
The question remains as to whether the death penalty is a just one in this instance in terms of proportionality.
Even if ignorance of the law is no defence, the question of whether being caught deserves such an extreme punishment is a knotty one.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But it's none of Australia's business, or only in a general way if Australia is committed to working to abolish the death penalty generally. Australia can object to the death penalty in general but it can't start getting in a strop just because some of its citzens, of whose guilt there seems to be no real doubt, aren't shown special favours by the country in which they committed their offences.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Euty:
quote:
The question remains as to whether the death penalty is a just one in this instance in terms of proportionality.
No, the death penalty isn't justified except in the sense that it is the conviction meted out in Indonesian law, but that isn't actually the issue. The issue is why this particular group of people specifically in Indonesia merited this response from Australia? The statement regarding the execution and the actions immediately following it were justified with righteous pronouncements about objections to the brutality of the death penalty; but Australia has embassies and diplomatic relations in other countries around the world where the exact same thing is practiced and in some cases in a much stricter sense and application. It does therefore smack a little of trial by media soap opera and making martyrs out of criminals repainted as saints all with the added bonus of getting another dig in at Indonesia. On the other hand Indonesia hasn't exactly the best track record since the '92 meltdown, but I wonder if Australia needs to take a step back from it all and examine its righteous indignation. To my mind there is a very weird double standard to it all: either the death penalty is wrong in all cases and Australia should re-examine all diplomatic relations with those countries that practice it, or they should just admit that they don't actually give a toss about the brutality of the death penalty, unless of course it directly effects an Australian. Personally I think the whole thing is daft; if all countries that objected to the death penalty were to be isolated in such a way the world would become a small place and getting oil might become a significant problem. It is better in my view to keep diplomatic relations open and avoid straining or breaking them. That way there is a much better possibility of engaging sensibly on the issue of the death penalty and possibly even being part of the catalyst for change.
All that said, I think what is really behind it is silly politicking, but I'm not entirely sure why or what on earth they hope to achieve. Or maybe the Australian government are just stupid and knee-jerk.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
This whole thing is in some ways a reflection of the state of relations between Australia and Indonesia, we just don't like or understand each other very much.....if at all.
On the point of double standards and hypocrisy though, it has been pointed out that Indonesia makes pleas for clemency to get its citizens who are subject to capital punishment in other countries, off death row-so that's even a weirder double standard than Australia's. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/indonesia-got-its-own-citizens-off-death-row-but-aussie-bali-nine-duo-still-await-e xecution/story-fni0cx12-1227252877434
It's also worth noting that there seems to be a disproportionate number of foreigners being executed in Indonesia-this new President's reintroduction of execution after a moratorium has a political whiff about it, exacerbated as I said above by the bad relationship between Australia and Indonesia.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
2. The other one is that Indonesia is executing Australians. All states are entitled to stick up for their own, even their dodgy own.
Sure. And Country X is entitled to stick up for its own by asking Country Y to pay any Xers working in Y a minimum wage in line with what they'd get back in X(assuming it would be higher).
And Country Y is entitled to tell Country X to go stuff it.
And the rest of the world is entitled to regard Country X as a laughingstock.
As an expat myself, I am full agreement with Albertus. When you are in a foreign country, you answer to their laws. That your home government may find those laws distasteful matters not a bit.
[ 29. April 2015, 14:40: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Joko Widodo agrees that every country has a right to stand up for its own, even its dodgy own, so it's not exactly outrageous that Australia's making a fuss. Withdrawing diplomatic relations is a bit of political posturing, more I suspect for the Australian audience than the Indonesians-big deal-Australia is not the first nor will it be the last to do such a thing.
From the Daily Telegraph
"Indonesian President Joko Widodo is not relenting despite pressure from around the world to spare the Bali Nine duo the death sentence. Indonesian President Indonesian President Joko Widodo defended his stance in an interview broadcast yesterday on Al Jazeera television.
“As a head of state of course I’m going to try to save my citizens from execution,” he said.
“That’s my obligation as a president, as a head of state ... To protect my citizens who are facing the death penalty but on the other hand we have to respect other countries that apply capital punishment.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
If these men were tried 10 years ago, and had been led to believe their death sentence was not going to be carried out, then the action of the Indonesian state is inexcusable. If that is the case, those responsible have blood on their hands. The Australian government and everyone else have every reason to complain, as have even people who don't in principle disagree with the death penalty.
If your country has treated a penalty as in abeyance, and then brings it back again, there can be no justification whatever for implementing this change retrospectively. If that is the case, then end of story.
Also, in my book, keeping people in prison for 10 years and then executing them counts as a cruel and unusual punishment. To me, irrespective of the rights and wrongs of executing people, there can be no debate and no room for discussion about that.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If all drugs were merely controlled within a health context we wouldn't have this problem. Thus, the solution ultimately is discontinue all laws about all drugs and render them all legal without exception.
Those misusing drugs need to access medical and addictions treatment. Such removes any incentive to traffic and the associated crimes.
I would like to know the addictions status of those judicially killed if this is available, both before arrest and after lock-up. I suspect we will find most or all to have have medical diagnoses of addiction.
(I'm on cellular data, so searching the 'net is impractical today for me)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I am rather entertained by the Widodo's logic that a president should protect its citizens from execution while he approves of Indonesia's executions of its own citizens.
I once read an interview with the guy who defended Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber. The lawyer was asked about his views on the death penalty, and replied with something like "I'm a big supporter of it, just not for my own clients!"
I can understand his logic, and could even extend it to thinking of the president of a country as an advocate representing the interests of his people against foreign governments, even as he seeks to maximize jurisdiction over foreigners living in his own country.
Though, personally, if I were the leader of a country, I'd have a hard time arguing with a straight face that another country should exempt my wayward expats from the full severity of the law. I don't think I could even draft a generic communique pleading such a case. I'd probably have to farm the job out to some temp student and just rubber stamp what he writes.
And, I'll also observe that whenever a Canadian traveler lands himself in a foreign jail, on-line comment boards are full of remarks like "Stupid freaking suburban idiot backpacker, now he expects us to bail him out and fly him home! Probably a Liberal voter. Hope he becomes someone's beeyatch in the prison showers!!"
So, there could be a fair amount of support from hoi poloi for a Canadian prime minister annoucning that he won't do anything to help Canandians in overseas prisons.
[ 29. April 2015, 17:31: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I remember the day Timothy McVeigh was executed. I was in an elevator with two women who were opponents of the death penalty. (I think they were wearing buttons saying so.) One of them asked what I thought, and I said I didn't really approve of the death penalty, but that McVeigh made the worst possible poster child for abolishing it.
As I recall, McVeigh stated that he preferred to die rather than spend life in prison. As I regard life in prison as a serious punishment, I think the choice of dying ought to be available to the prisoner. On the other hand, I can see plenty of opportunities for this to be abused.
People are expressing outrage at the death penalty for anything other than murder. It wasn't very long ago that people were executed for a wide variety of crimes such as the theft of a loaf of bread. In some ways, the world has improved.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
On the point of double standards and hypocrisy though, it has been pointed out that Indonesia makes pleas for clemency to get its citizens who are subject to capital punishment in other countries
Well, whether that is a double standard depends on what they were convicted with and whether those crimes were capital crimes in Indonesia.
There's another level of hypocrisy here. Two australians face execution and the Western media are up in arms. Meanwhile people from the third world are routinely executed on the basis of forced confessions in 'our ally' Saudi Arabia, and you don't get anywhere this level of noise - at best it's mentioned in passing.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If these men were tried 10 years ago, and had been led to believe their death sentence was not going to be carried out, then the action of the Indonesian state is inexcusable. If that is the case, those responsible have blood on their hands. The Australian government and everyone else have every reason to complain, as have even people who don't in principle disagree with the death penalty.
I disagree.
If the punishment for drugs trafficking is death, then that's what you should "expect". If the country chooses to NOT execute, that's leniency on their part. Equally, if they decide to reactivate the death penalty, that's their prerogative.
I disagree with the whole idea of the death penalty, but unless we are going to try and ban it in all countries, then each nation should be able to make it's own laws and practices (assuming that they are equitable and just).
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I am rather entertained by the Widodo's logic that a president should protect its citizens from execution while he approves of Indonesia's executions of its own citizens.
We dispense careful justice.
You incautiously apply the death penalty.
They kill with harsh and reckless abandon.
I have little sympathy for traffickers in heroin. However, I am not a proponent of the death penalty. For moral reasons, but practical ones as well. One cannot unkill an accidentally executed innocent person. That alone should be reason enough.
As far as double-standards, welcome to the wonderful world of international diplomacy.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I recall the sadness of McVeigh's father on visiting his son - I know he has done this dreadful thing, but he's my son and he's going to die.
This has largely been a media campaign here onto which the government has latched. Tony Abbott is a populist without any policy save keeping himself in power. Someone upthread asked what was the thinking in the foreign affairs department. The answer is nothing, what little thinking is being done is in the Prime Minister's office.
Nothing justifies the death sentence, and carrying it out demeans the government which does it. But it has always been clearly known here that death is the penalty in many countries, not just Indonesia, for drug smuggling. Both these men must have known that, but kept to their course of conduct.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
On the point of double standards and hypocrisy though, it has been pointed out that Indonesia makes pleas for clemency to get its citizens who are subject to capital punishment in other countries
Well, whether that is a double standard depends on what they were convicted with and whether those crimes were capital crimes in Indonesia.
That argument can be made, but it isn't the view being made by several posters up thread in relation to Australia. It was asserted by several that unless Australia stood up against the death penalty everywhere and being applied to anyone then Australia was applying a double standard, that it was a laughing stock and. quote:
you seem to think that people should somehow be exempt just because they come from a high GDP country.
-the point is Australia isn't Robinson Crusoe on having inconsistent attitudes towards capital punishment particularly when applied to its own citizens.
Crimes for which the Indonesian government has pleaded for its citizens do include drugs offences and murder.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
There's another level of hypocrisy here. Two australians face execution and the Western media are up in arms. Meanwhile people from the third world are routinely executed on the basis of forced confessions in 'our ally' Saudi Arabia, and you don't get anywhere this level of noise - at best it's mentioned in passing.
Yes, indeed...
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Nothing justifies the death sentence, and carrying it out demeans the government which does it. But it has always been clearly known here that death is the penalty in many countries, not just Indonesia, for drug smuggling. Both these men must have known that, but kept to their course of conduct.
Quite.
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
If the punishment for drugs trafficking is death, then that's what you should "expect". If the country chooses to NOT execute, that's leniency on their part. Equally, if they decide to reactivate the death penalty, that's their prerogative.
Absolutely. Well said.
As a side issue, the coverage of the whole thing was absolutely disgusting. Every station running live blogs and twitter feeds, minute-by-minute. It's not a national spectacle - it's a personal tragedy for a select group of people whose relatives are about to be killed. Also, the hype, the drama, the manufactured tension - it made me think that the people of the first world really are losing hold of the distinction between reality and action movies, or perhaps computer games. As though if we all sat on the edges of our seats biting our nails for long enough, John McLane would parachute in and stop it all happening! Because the 'bad guy' couldn't possibly prevail, could he? Could he?
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Huia
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# 3473
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Posted
I am so glad NZ doesn't have the death penalty. We have had a number of unsafe convictions for murder (one with obvious evidence planted by the Police).
The timing of this execution seems to make it more politically driven than merely dispensing justice.
I am not in favour of the death penalty. It doesn't act as a deterrent. Pickpockets in London worked the crowds who were there witnessing public hangings.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
Evangeline wrote:
quote:
It was asserted by several that unless Australia stood up against the death penalty everywhere and being applied to anyone then Australia was applying a double standard, that it was a laughing stock and.
I was the one who used the phrase "laughingstock", but I wasn't referring to the double standard that others have been debaring(ie. why criticize only Indonesia when lots of other places have the death penalty).
I meant that a country would be a laughingstock for trying to get their citizens protected by the homeland's standards when traveling abroad.
[ 29. April 2015, 23:42: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Highfive
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# 12937
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
... however even if you look at the travel records of Andrew Chan - one of the nine - you can see that he travelled to Indonesia a total of 23 times within a two year period and the suspicion has always been that he and the group had been trafficking drugs for quite some time.
This is total news to me. Any articles describing this?
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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Evangeline
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# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Evangeline wrote:
quote:
It was asserted by several that unless Australia stood up against the death penalty everywhere and being applied to anyone then Australia was applying a double standard, that it was a laughing stock and.
I was the one who used the phrase "laughingstock", but I wasn't referring to the double standard that others have been debaring(ie. why criticize only Indonesia when lots of other places have the death penalty).
I meant that a country would be a laughingstock for trying to get their citizens protected by the homeland's standards when traveling abroad.
Well nobody is actually doing that, Australia has just pleaded for mercy, just as Indonesia does for its citizens and it's my understanding that in Indonesia the President can commute death penalties-so inobody's actually trying to circumvent Indonesian law . It doesn't really matter but Chris Stiles asserted that it's not hypocritical to plead against the death penalty for your citizens despite executing your own & others at home so long as it's for crimes that don't incur the death penalty in your country-that seems to be pretty much what you are declaring makes a country a laughing stock.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
This has largely been a media campaign here onto which the government has latched. Tony Abbott is a populist without any policy save keeping himself in power. Someone upthread asked what was the thinking in the foreign affairs department. The answer is nothing, what little thinking is being done is in the Prime Minister's office.
Abbott is just another politician, and a legitimate target for legitimate criticism, but some of it has become so kneejerk and hysterical that I am beginning to wonder what ulterior motives are going to be attributed to him if he does anything for his mum on Mother's Day.
His stance on the recent executions has had tripartisan support.
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Mili
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# 3254
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Posted
As said above, the Indonesian President can grant clemency for death sentences so of course those of death row apply for it. According to this article Indonesia halted executions between 2008 and 2013 giving prisoners false hope that they had been reprieved. The article also talks about a British woman who is facing execution. Surely the UK will try to prevent her execution? (I know the article is from the Daily Mail, but it seems accurate). Indonesia's Widodo vows no pardons
There was a lot of support for Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran because they had already spent 10 years in jail, were not asking to be released from jail - just not to be killed and had turned their lives around and were running programs to help others within the jail.
When they were first arrested and later when they were sentenced to death, I did not agree with the death penalty, but thought it was their own fault as we all know that can be the consequence of drug smuggling in Indonesia. It was regrettable, but I didn't think Australia should interfere.
However, having heard from the Australian pastor who knew them and who saw the amazing work they were doing in Indonesia, I changed my mind and believed it would be unjust and unproductive to kill these men who had turned their lives around and were making the jail a better place for fellow prisoners. Here is an article in the Sydney Morning Herald about Chan's transformation.
Here is a letter from Sukumran which outlines the work he was doing in the jail, along with becoming an artist. Myuran Sukumaran's letter to Indonesian Courts
Another reason some people think the death sentence was unfair was that the parents of one of the Bali 9, Scott Rush, tipped off the Australian Federal Police that they believed their son might be being employed as a drug mule. The AFP gave this information to the Indonesian Police, knowing the drug dealers might face the death penalty if caught in Indonesia. They already knew the organisers were involved in drug dealing between Indonesia and Australia, and could have waited until they got back to Australia and arrested them here. How the AFP trapped the Bali 9 (Scott Rush has had a reprieve from the death sentence since this article was written).
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mili
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# 3254
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Posted
Here is a good opinion piece from today about the politics involved in the execution. The Age
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Galloping Granny
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# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
2. The other one is that Indonesia is executing Australians. All states are entitled to stick up for their own, even their dodgy own.
Sure. And Country X is entitled to stick up for its own by asking Country Y to pay any Xers working in Y a minimum wage in line with what they'd get back in X(assuming it would be higher).
And Country Y is entitled to tell Country X to go stuff it.
And the rest of the world is entitled to regard Country X as a laughingstock.
As an expat myself, I am full agreement with Albertus. When you are in a foreign country, you answer to their laws. That your home government may find those laws distasteful matters not a bit.
Another issue, but one of which the opposite side has recently been discussed in New Zealand:
Some have raised the suspicion that Chinese workers, brought to NZ to do maintenance on railway carriages made in China by their company, are working in conditions and for pay very inferior to what is required by local legislation. The conclusion has been that we cannot require them to abide by our regulations as they were hired in China by the Chinese company to work on their products; and that the company was in order to refuse to show us their records.
This is in contrast to the situation of workers on fishing vessels in our waters, who have escaped from virtual slavery when their ships have reached NZ ports, and the ships' captains have been prosecuted.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
I can't see how it could be legal to employ someone on terms below those required by local legislation just because they are hired elsewhere: or rather, I can, but I can also see that it would be very easy to legislate to stop it- if there is the political will to do so.
Of course, these being Chinese employees of a Chinese company, it may well be that the NZ Govermnent is following the lead of just about everyone else and is more interested in sucking up to the Chinese than in taking a principled position.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Whether or not we approve of the death penalty is irrelevant: the fact that smuggling of amounts of 1kg and over prompts an automatic death penalty has been known about for at least the last 20 years so people convicted cannot plead ignorance.
I'm not sure that's the end of the debate, though.
The question remains as to whether the death penalty is a just one in this instance in terms of proportionality.
Even if ignorance of the law is no defence, the question of whether being caught deserves such an extreme punishment is a knotty one.
It's not knotty at all. Judicial murder for drug smuggling or drug trafficking is barbaric. There's kinda-sorta a case for it for murder and a stronger case for war criminals of the Adolf Eichmann variety. But we aren't talking Ted Bundy or Slobodan Milosevic here. We're talking about people importing heroin. By all means bang them up for some suitable length of time but killing them is plain wrong and anyone who says so is plain right. if they didn't say that in other instances then that is obviously a sadness but it doesn't invalidate their objections in this instance. I'm just not getting the point of this (not you Eutychus), oh, they knew the risks and the Indonesian Government are well within their rights, line, even though I deplore capital punishment. If you deplore capital punishment this was wrong. If you don't deplore capital punishment man the fuck up and say so. But spare us all the impersonation of the love child of The Lord High Executioner and the Reverend J.C. Flannel.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
There was a lot of support for Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran because they had already spent 10 years in jail, were not asking to be released from jail - just not to be killed and had turned their lives around and were running programs to help others within the jail...
it would be unjust and unproductive to kill these men who had turned their lives around and were making the jail a better place for fellow prisoners.
The idea that a prisoner turning their life around should change the way the judicial system treats them, is unconvincing to many of my friends. They say "crime requires punishment or there's no justice." I don't know if Indonesians think this way.
What really strikes me about the letter is the comments about how encouraging the guards have been. Stories from USA prisons suggest many guards see their job as depersonalizing people, not encouraging them in any way. I was awed by the comments about the guards.
It's a politically good letter in showing that the prison system will lose valuable programs if these men are executed. Unless the public reaction is like so often in USA that it's wrong for prisoners to have any good thing, "they are in prison, they are supposed to suffer, not have free classes in subject we can't afford for ourselves!"
Interesting situation to watch.
Also interesting in showing that even "evil" drug runners can turn their lives around, if given the right encouragement. How come the jail/prison system isn't designed to try to help that happen?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Whether or not we approve of the death penalty is irrelevant: the fact that smuggling of amounts of 1kg and over prompts an automatic death penalty has been known about for at least the last 20 years so people convicted cannot plead ignorance.
I'm not sure that's the end of the debate, though.
The question remains as to whether the death penalty is a just one in this instance in terms of proportionality.
Even if ignorance of the law is no defence, the question of whether being caught deserves such an extreme punishment is a knotty one.
It's not knotty at all. Judicial murder for drug smuggling or drug trafficking is barbaric. There's kinda-sorta a case for it for murder and a stronger case for war criminals of the Adolf Eichmann variety. But we aren't talking Ted Bundy or Slobodan Milosevic here. We're talking about people importing heroin. By all means bang them up for some suitable length of time but killing them is plain wrong and anyone who says so is plain right. if they didn't say that in other instances then that is obviously a sadness but it doesn't invalidate their objections in this instance. I'm just not getting the point of this (not you Eutychus), oh, they knew the risks and the Indonesian Government are well within their rights, line, even though I deplore capital punishment. If you deplore capital punishment this was wrong. If you don't deplore capital punishment man the fuck up and say so. But spare us all the impersonation of the love child of The Lord High Executioner and the Reverend J.C. Flannel.
What he said.
I think this argument lends itself to reductio ad absurdam or whatever it's called.
Suppose in Bastardland the penalty for overstaying at a parking meter is hanging drawing and quartering.
Now suppose Mrs Nice from the local church, known for her good works, goes to Bastardland for a holiday. She overstays on a parking meter and is sentenced to hanging drawing and quartering.
Would we be saying "Well, she knew the risks. I have no sympathy; that's how they do things in Bastardland"? Or would we be saying "Fuck me! That's barbaric! Can't the government do something? What do we have ambassadors for?"
[ 30. April 2015, 15:36: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
There was a lot of support for Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran because they had already spent 10 years in jail, were not asking to be released from jail - just not to be killed and had turned their lives around and were running programs to help others within the jail...
it would be unjust and unproductive to kill these men who had turned their lives around and were making the jail a better place for fellow prisoners.
The idea that a prisoner turning their life around should change the way the judicial system treats them, is unconvincing to many of my friends. They say "crime requires punishment or there's no justice." I don't know if Indonesians think this way.
What really strikes me about the letter is the comments about how encouraging the guards have been. Stories from USA prisons suggest many guards see their job as depersonalizing people, not encouraging them in any way. I was awed by the comments about the guards.
It's a politically good letter in showing that the prison system will lose valuable programs if these men are executed. Unless the public reaction is like so often in USA that it's wrong for prisoners to have any good thing, "they are in prison, they are supposed to suffer, not have free classes in subject we can't afford for ourselves!"
Interesting situation to watch.
Also interesting in showing that even "evil" drug runners can turn their lives around, if given the right encouragement. How come the jail/prison system isn't designed to try to help that happen?
I think you'll find that in most Western countries, at least, it is. It may not be all that successful, and there are the "They should be made to suffer and nothing else" types everywhere, but rehabilitation is meant to be part of the function of the justice system.
Don't they often call it a "corrective facility" over there? What else does "corrective" mean if not rehabilitation?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gwai
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# 11076
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Posted
I think sadly enough over here it often means 'a place to throw away those thugs' and pretend we are doing the best thing for them. Most Americans are not concerned about the state of our prisons because either they should suffer or well it's their fault anyway, convicted felons generally can't vote, and the for profit prison industry basically can vote. Considering those, there's unfortunately no political reason in most of the U.S. for an elected official to do much work helping prisoners. (Though perhaps the overcrowding of prisons makes some localities want to improve their recidivism rate.)
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Karl wrote:
quote:
Suppose in Bastardland the penalty for overstaying at a parking meter is hanging drawing and quartering.
Now suppose Mrs Nice from the local church, known for her good works, goes to Bastardland for a holiday. She overstays on a parking meter and is sentenced to hanging drawing and quartering.
quote:
Would we be saying "Well, she knew the risks. I have no sympathy; that's how they do things in Bastardland"?
To answer your question, yes. That's what I would say. I'd even get it printed up on a t-shirt.
Though I might also think that Mrs. Nice's home government could put a travel advisory out on Bastardland, letting their citiziens know just how draconian Bastardland was about parking violations. Once that information is made available to the public, the government washes its hands of all obligations to anyone traveling there.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Evangeline wrote:
quote:
It was asserted by several that unless Australia stood up against the death penalty everywhere and being applied to anyone then Australia was applying a double standard, that it was a laughing stock and.
I was the one who used the phrase "laughingstock", but I wasn't referring to the double standard that others have been debaring(ie. why criticize only Indonesia when lots of other places have the death penalty).
I meant that a country would be a laughingstock for trying to get their citizens protected by the homeland's standards when traveling abroad.
Well nobody is actually doing that, Australia has just pleaded for mercy, just as Indonesia does for its citizens and it's my understanding that in Indonesia the President can commute death penalties-so inobody's actually trying to circumvent Indonesian law . It doesn't really matter but Chris Stiles asserted that it's not hypocritical to plead against the death penalty for your citizens despite executing your own & others at home so long as it's for crimes that don't incur the death penalty in your country-that seems to be pretty much what you are declaring makes a country a laughing stock.
You raise a valid point, ie. Indonesia does allow clemency. But still, if this is a typical crime for which clemency would be granted, I guess it would make sense of Australia(taking on the role of a grieving parent) to ask the president to spare the lives of the condemned smugglers.
Once Indonesia tells the Aussies to get lost, however, I think Canberra needs to just face the fact that Jakarta doesn't care what they think, and bow out. Not raise a ruckus and recall the ambassador, as if executing the drug-dealers was somehow a violation of Australian something or other.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
In my first paragraph above, the words "But still" should not be there. Properly edited...
quote:
You raise a valid point, ie. Indonesia does allow clemency. And, if this is a typical crime for which clemency would be granted, I guess it would make sense of Australia(taking on the role of a grieving parent) to ask the president to spare the lives of the condemned smugglers.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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