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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The bible is a horror story
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
So said the persuasive interviewee yesterday on CBC's Tapestry.
quote:
"At the end of scripture, legions of angels are basically mass-murdering human beings. It's a blood-up-to-the-knees kind of thing!"
I also found this list of horror stories.
I know various explanations such as there are good and bad examples, that it's a story of faith and history not just God etc. But--
I found the horror story angle rather persuasive from an intellectual perspective. Coincidently I was reading some literary criticism which discussed communion as any sort of eating together, an intimate activity and sharing. Which brings up vampires and zombies, cannibalism, and Revelation, and the twisting of Christian imagery even within the bible itself.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
I once heard a preacher say: 'The Bible is a love letter' and thought 'Have you read it all?'.
Although I think the preacher was partly right and that the Bible contains a lot of beauty. I also think it's partly right to say that the Bible has elements of the horror genre within it (maybe as a contrast to the beauty).
There are whole images and phrases which would never have occurred to me if I had never read the Bible. So, as an example, I don't think I would have come up with the idea of a whore getting drunk on the blood of the saints on my own.
There are other elements of horror and even gore in the Bible, for example, of Amasa's guts spilling out when he is assassinated. And despite the horror on social media of ISIS beheading people, the Bible is full of decapitations which have also been portrayed in Bible-inspired art.
(As an aside, I once went to watch a Facebook linked video which was titled 'Terrorists play football with heads of Christians' and I thought, 'How lovely, let's look how football can bring Christian leaders and terrorists together, I must watch this'. You can probably imagine my face as I realised that I had got the whole thing a little wrong.)
So yes, some horror, a little gore, some genuinely eerie moments - Saul calling up Samuel's ghost, apocalyptic scenarios, people getting hung and pecked at by vultures. Brilliant.
Not entirely a love letter.
[ 12. May 2015, 06:53: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What astounds me is the love in the horror. Superhuman, transcendent love in the horror. Existential, contingent, mundane, evolving horror projected back on to Love that shines above cloud. On the other side of the world.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What astounds me is the love in the horror. Superhuman, transcendent love in the horror. Existential, contingent, mundane, evolving horror projected back on to Love that shines above cloud. On the other side of the world.
Eh?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What astounds me is the love in the horror. Superhuman, transcendent love in the horror. Existential, contingent, mundane, evolving horror projected back on to Love that shines above cloud. On the other side of the world.
Eh?
![[Cool]](cool.gif) Yeah but remember that Shakespeare - the writer of great beauty and love also wrote Macbeth. The Bible is full of both beauty and ugliness.
The horror genre is interesting in terms of survival. In that the survival genre is involved (as with the Bible).
There was once a horror magazine in which the letter writers would always rant against believers because believers always rubbished the horror genre.
You don't need me to tell you that life contains too much horror, but as a genre, there are elements of beauty in horror as Martin infers.
[ 12. May 2015, 09:55: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
If warriors are committing genocide and pause for an hour to recite poetry that's no comfort for their victims.
We've all been a victim of Pam Ayres, but there is no need to mention her on this thread about horror. Actually I take this back - we are talking horror. I once went to see Carol Ann Dufy speak and she said 'I hope you've all had a good day, I'm very glad to end it for you.'
I was the only one in the crowd that laughed.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
That the Bible was conceived and written by humans ought to be considered beyond doubt. Unsurprisingly, it is full of the sort of nasty shit that humans do to each other. Much, much worse than that, it is full of the nasty shit that God does to people and his sinister plans for the future. There is much to admire in and learn from the Bible; but In toto it is hardly a guide for moral behaviour. As a human book about human fears and human desires it is endlessly fascinating. Horror stories, of course—but there are some nice stories too.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
from no prophet etc's OP
quote:
"At the end of scripture, legions of angels are basically mass-murdering human beings. It's a blood-up-to-the-knees kind of thing!"
Er... the book of Revelation is not necessarily meant to be taken 'dumb wooden' literally.... as for the whore therein 'getting drunk on the blood of the saints' - quite a good image of persecutors.
I note that the 'horror stories' in the link are basically all given a considerable 'spin' by the person concerned rather than seen in their proper biblical context.
Human sinfulness is a horror story; the Bible portrays a God who is on the one hand very rightly intolerant of that sinfulness, and who occasionally does dramatic things about it to make sure we understand that; but who on the other hand is forgiving way beyond what we deserve, otherwise the Bible would be a much shorter and much more horrific story....
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
the Bible portrays a God who is on the one hand very rightly intolerant of that sinfulness, and who occasionally does dramatic things about it to make sure we understand that; but who on the other hand is forgiving way beyond what we deserve, otherwise the Bible would be a much shorter and much more horrific story....
What about justice for all the men, women and children he is said to have murdered?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
The Bible has plenty of sex and violence which should be X rated, its stories are far more exciting than some of the pathetic plots of the so-called horror movies.
The overall theme is the triumph of good over evil. Why don't we cringe at the demise of the baddies in films if we complain about it in the Bible, I wonder?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
from no prophet etc's OP
quote:
"At the end of scripture, legions of angels are basically mass-murdering human beings. It's a blood-up-to-the-knees kind of thing!"
Er... the book of Revelation is not necessarily meant to be taken 'dumb wooden' literally.... as for the whore therein 'getting drunk on the blood of the saints' - quite a good image of persecutors.
I note that the 'horror stories' in the link are basically all given a considerable 'spin' by the person concerned rather than seen in their proper biblical context.
Human sinfulness is a horror story; the Bible portrays a God who is on the one hand very rightly intolerant of that sinfulness, and who occasionally does dramatic things about it to make sure we understand that; but who on the other hand is forgiving way beyond what we deserve, otherwise the Bible would be a much shorter and much more horrific story....
What I'm trying to say is that I don't know that the kind of phrases such as 'crucifying Christ afresh' or even the image of hell would have occurred to me if I hadn't read the Bible. Are you going to say that worse things would have entered my imagination if I hadn't read the Bible? I know that God can do no wrong, but I'm not totally convinced that some of the things in the Bible have made things better. Some of the things are horrific. And they are the kind of things I think about when I am ill.
[ 12. May 2015, 10:47: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I used to regard the Judeo-Christian God as basically accurately portrayed throughout the Books, for, ooooooh, 40 years and more. Dreadfully pragmatic. Well 'ard. Eden. The Flood. Babel. The Exodus. The lot (... yeah, him too). ESPECIALLY Revelation. Ooooooooooooh YES! Because life before death didn't matter. Afterlife did. So He was going to be all Fonzy to the Amalekites in the Second Resurrection.
Like the vast majority of Christians to this day it turns out, me. Apart from Him turning out to be cool of course.
Now I realise it's ALL us, projecting ourselves on God, on Love. Who nonetheless DID inspire the people behind the myths. The only God we have ever known is revealed in Jesus. In the behaviour of Jesus. The words are predicated on the behaviour. NOT the other way around. If it looks and sounds like Love, it's God, if it doesn't, it's us. Covers everything really. I can't think of ANY exceptions. From Genesis through the so called 'hard sayings' of Jesus to Revelation.
The light of Love shines in ALL of the horror stories. My favourites being Abraham under the Terebinth Trees at Mamre - bargaining with God for Sodom and Gomorrah - and Jonah - through whom God saved hundreds of thousands of people, a million, from His wrath, against Jonah's will. Stories of an ASTOUNDING God, rooted in the Bronze Age and soaring in to transcendent eternity. A MERCIFUL God. The God of The Flood who promised no more with the rainbow.
The horror is all ours. And we're INNOCENT in it. It can't be helped. It's part of mud becoming light.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
If the Bible reflects truth then it reflects truth both about God and about us, both about the transient and the eternal. If we forget that the Bible is about us then we see the transient as being the eternal and recoil in horror. If we forget that the Bible is about God then we see the the transient overwhelm the eternal and turn away in despair.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I don't know.
Okay, maybe the bible is merely a moral lesson: don't listen to snakes, and don't fall for their marketing ploys. I always wondered why the snake wasn't killed, and the devil wasn't killed. Or maybe like Jason, God wanted lots of sequels with lots of temptation so the bad ones have to remain undead. And lots of bloody slaughter is so much more satisfying than a flood, and which a promise not have another is rather lame isn't it?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The Bible has plenty of sex and violence which should be X rated, its stories are far more exciting than some of the pathetic plots of the so-called horror movies.
The overall theme is the triumph of good over evil. Why don't we cringe at the demise of the baddies in films if we complain about it in the Bible, I wonder?
Because films aren't held up to us as instructions from the Most High God as to what is right and what is wrong?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The Bible has plenty of sex and violence which should be X rated, its stories are far more exciting than some of the pathetic plots of the so-called horror movies.
The overall theme is the triumph of good over evil. Why don't we cringe at the demise of the baddies in films if we complain about it in the Bible, I wonder?
Because films aren't held up to us as instructions from the Most High God as to what is right and what is wrong?
Sorry—and do you think the Bible in toto is a good moral guide to what is right and wrong?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The Bible has plenty of sex and violence which should be X rated, its stories are far more exciting than some of the pathetic plots of the so-called horror movies.
The overall theme is the triumph of good over evil. Why don't we cringe at the demise of the baddies in films if we complain about it in the Bible, I wonder?
Because films aren't held up to us as instructions from the Most High God as to what is right and what is wrong?
Sorry—and do you think the Bible in toto is a good moral guide to what is right and wrong?
K.
I think the larcenous murine's point was that it's held up as being one.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Ok, sorry if I lost the thread.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
No Prophet wrote:
quote:
And lots of bloody slaughter is so much more satisfying than a flood...[/QB]
Oh, I dunno. Irwin Allen got a lot of mileage out of diluvian-esque themes(if never an actual flood). Granted, nowadays John Carpeneter is probably considered hipper.
[ 13. May 2015, 14:19: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The Bible has plenty of sex and violence which should be X rated, its stories are far more exciting than some of the pathetic plots of the so-called horror movies.
The overall theme is the triumph of good over evil. Why don't we cringe at the demise of the baddies in films if we complain about it in the Bible, I wonder?
Because films aren't held up to us as instructions from the Most High God as to what is right and what is wrong?
There are only parts of the Bible which are held up as instructions from God about right and wrong, eg the Ten Commandments and everything about Jesus. The rest is a mixture of genre, mostly what people have said or sung about God, but also pictorial prophecy which has come from God to reassure us that the good guys and gals win in the end.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
The bit where God kills loads of Egyptian children is pretty horrific. Also the bit where God kills David's son. Not just kills him but makes it suffer agony for ages first.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Love doesn't do that. We project that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The bible often seems like a horror story to me, that could be down to a generally cynical nature much of the time.
I don't mind hearing it read in church or sometimes on evango- TV. Occasionally if I'm asked to read it in church that's not a problem. However, reading to myself at home can produce an uneasy feeling in the pit of the stomach.
Does it put horrific thoughts in my head which weren't previously there? As a child brought up in an agnostic/atheist household I can recall plenty of horrific images, and the relevant nightmares to go with them -- all entirely unconnected to the Bible.
I suppose it's possible that our culture, and history of horror narrative has been influenced by the Bible. If we studied cultures that had never encountered the bible, or had any exposure Christian teaching it might be possible to gauge if it causes horror or not.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So you weren't brought up in a Judeo-Christian culture?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I once heard a preacher say: 'The Bible is a love letter' and thought 'Have you read it all?'.
It's a really kinky love letter. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I once heard a preacher say: 'The Bible is a love letter' and thought 'Have you read it all?'.
It's a really kinky love letter.
Yeah, and sent out to huge swathes of people. What kind of love letter is that?
[code]
[ 14. May 2015, 09:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
The bit where God kills loads of Egyptian children is pretty horrific. Also the bit where God kills David's son. Not just kills him but makes it suffer agony for ages first.
The part where a brother and sister commit the same offense against a holy leader, but only the sister is stricken with flesh eating disease because sin is so much more disgusting when a woman commits it. The part where women are driven to eating their babies because God got pissed off and sent in a foreign army to besiege Jerusalem to soothe His feelings. The part where some poor schmuck who is trying to keep the Ark of the Covenant from hitting the ground is zapped to death for daring to touch it.
Yeah, plenty of horror. Lurid stories feature in a lot of cultures, and since the Bible ( from a historical perspective) is a kind of overview of the growth of a specific culture's world view via its hallmark literature, there is no reason their own lurid stories would't feature.
Here's a question: what is the function of a horror story to a community? Does it function as a locus for group anxiety? A way to discharge internal trauma, whether suffered by an individual or a society?
( I actually am a horror fan, so I wonder about this a lot.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So you weren't brought up in a Judeo-Christian culture?
Indeed I was Martin. Having non-practicing Christian parents was no protection from such.
Suppose I was saying that many of the horror stories generations have been fixated with have often been inspired, indirectly by the Bible, or more directly by Centuries of Church teaching.
Grimm's fairy tales and Witch stories spring to mind. Also take Bram Stoker's Dracula, parallels between his horrifically seductive novel and Christian belief are plentiful.
Cultures that have not been influenced by the Bible haven't always been immune from horror. Not sure where the Aztecs came by the idea of removing beating hearts from their donors/victims ?!
[ 14. May 2015, 18:55: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I used to be an obsessive folklore buff-- African, Greek, Asian, you name it. And I guarantee you gruesome stories are everywhere. Vengeful supernatural entities, heroes that enact shudder - worthy revenge. Which leads me to believe some of the stories are a kind of psychological " acting out" of group troubles or ethos.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Actually, the end of Revelations depicts a new Jerusalem being reestablished. A new Jerusalem where God will be enthroned, the tree of life will be replanted, and there will be no more tears.
The battle of Armageddon is between the world powers and God. God wins.
Not a horror story at all.
[ 14. May 2015, 20:12: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Actually, the end of Revelations depicts a new Jerusalem being reestablished. A new Jerusalem where God will be enthroned, the tree of life will be replanted, and there will be no more tears.
The battle of Armageddon is between the world powers and God. God wins.
Not a horror story at all.
Yeah, and The Exorcist ends with the litte girl being saved from Satan and hugging a priest.
I'd say the rest of the plot is still sufficient to qualify for the horror genre, though.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
To me, the Revelations resemble Stephen King's explanation of what drove him to write " The Stand"-- for one thing, it gave him a chance to kill off everyone in the world who pissed him off, in colorful ways. The Revelations describe what was already happening-- occupation and oppression-- and shows what happens to the bad guys when justice comes. Colorfully.
[ 14. May 2015, 20:34: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
The Bible contains horror, sure, but also awe, violence, love, self-sacrifice, murder, rape, philosophy, theology, poetry, prose, fiction, myth, truth, lies, joy, fear, and genealogies. Lots of genealogies.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I think what a number of us are reacting to is the title of the thread, the Bible is a horror story.
First, it has many different genres in its pages. Some of the more beautiful poems are in it as well as terrifying stories.
Second, no prophet said the End of Revelations was the account of the Armmegedan, it isn't the end of Revelations. The end is the establishment of the New Jerusalem where there will be no more tears.
You have to remember as well the Christian church was already undergoing severe persecution especially in Asia Minor (note: the seven churches listed in Revelations are in Asia Minor)
Some, however, feel Revelations is a tract intended to warn against accomodating Christianity with the secular world.
Yes, the writer uses very vivid language, but it is not to terrify as to present the promise that the earth will be remade or resoted and the New Jerusalem will have God established in this New City.
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
The presence of horror in a story doesn't make it a horror story. Romeo and Juliet includes a 13 year old child stabbing herself to death in a tomb next to dead bodies but it's not a horror story. A lot of the world's great literature contains horror.
The Bible isn't a horror story because it isn't a story. It's a collection of every kind of genre including a fair bit of history (or pseudo history) and history contains any amount of horror.
What troubles me is not the horror in the Bible but the times that appear to endorse injustice - the deaths of Job's first children - what did they do wrong? The women who are put forward to be raped to save male guests. The vast quantity of people Joshua & Co finished off etc etc.
Horror is sadly part of life so it makes sense to me that it should be in there.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I used to be an obsessive folklore buff-- African, Greek, Asian, you name it. And I guarantee you gruesome stories are everywhere. Vengeful supernatural entities, heroes that enact shudder - worthy revenge. Which leads me to believe some of the stories are a kind of psychological " acting out" of group troubles or ethos.
Indeed I agree it's safe to assume that with the human comes the horror, Bible or no Bible. In fact it would be pretty remarkable if a Scripture, first written over 4000 years ago, didn't contain horror.
Horror is as you say a necessary part of humanity, particularly when growing up. I guess we're reaching a stage now where IT technology allows it to be acted out in a safe environment. My son often played computer games which involved shooting figures in the head etc. Whenever I quizzed him about it the answer was always that the thought of doing it for real was repugnant.
The reason critics find it easy to poke fun at the less than pleasant Bible extracts is that Christians are perceived as loved-up wusses who shouldn't be into that kind of thing.
Also I think there is a problem for those of us who get the Jesus,(born again), hit. We sometimes open the Bible expecting to be transported away on a fluffy cloud yet become troubled when reading Bible nasty bits, esp. stuff like the prospect of secular family members being eternally roasted simply because they didn't believe in Christ.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Helen-Eva. Why does it trouble you?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Have you read Job? It says Job was a God-fearing man. The children? Not so much. They were given to partying. It says that Jobe would daily offer sacrifice to God on behalf of his children in case they had sinned or cursed God. Fact is, I think they all got killed while partying.
But, then again, I don't take the story of Job literally. There are maybe two sections in Job that are biographical Job 1:1-5 and probably the last chapter of Job in which his wealth is restored. Okay, he probably did not live for 140 years.
What happens in between is a dramatic play or reading.
It is much like a movie in a way. Just because you see people depicted as being killed, in reality, you know they are not.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I once heard a preacher say: 'The Bible is a love letter' and thought 'Have you read it all?'.
It's a really kinky love letter.
Yeah, and sent out to huge swathes of people. What kind of love letter is that?
[code]
What kind do you think? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What's wrong with partying?
Exactly. At the right parties, there's no end to the wine if you party with The Righteous Dude. Though he comes to a horrific end. Did it have to be torture to death? Yes because it's a horror story.
I always wondered about Isaac's PTSD. Due to double child abuse from both father and Father. Nice of God to stop it at attempted murder.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The reason critics find it easy to poke fun at the less than pleasant Bible extracts is that Christians are perceived as loved-up wusses who shouldn't be into that kind of thing.
I think it's more the case that christians tend to claim that God is supremely just. Which the bible then contradicts.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It's obvious that individuals and nations have different ideas about what constitutes justice, so I suppose it's unsurprising that people disagree about whether or not God is just.
Some atheists would argue that any god who allowed the world as it is to exist couldn't possibly be just. In this sense, what the Bible says is neither here nor there; even a sacred text full of puppies and buttercups and Christmasses every day wouldn't negate the horror of an unjust universe.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Rhesus monkeys know what justice is. We ALL know what justice is, like we ALL know what kindness, generosity, tolerance, decency, patience: love is.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The reason critics find it easy to poke fun at the less than pleasant Bible extracts is that Christians are perceived as loved-up wusses who shouldn't be into that kind of thing.
I think it's more the case that christians tend to claim that God is supremely just. Which the bible then contradicts.
If you look at it super literally, sure. If you see the Bible as a huge pile of fairytales, you're not gonna get much out of it, either. Folklore, though-- that's an entirely different animal.
Folklore is like a description of the interior chambers of a culture's heart. It is like one of those old family photos where everyone is dressed in strange old clothes, occupied in something that doesn't make immediate sense, and holy cow, is that great grandma's first husband standing there?
I am not saying that the lore might not be based on some historical events, but in order to become lore, a story needs to be told and retold. It is in the retelling that lore is shaped, like a rock that gets smoothed into a unique shape as it gets passed from hand to hand. The shape of the story begins to resemble the personality of the people.
To use a contemporary example: I was really into the J-horror craze a while back, and let me tell you, there is a level of darknessin some of that stuff that makes the Bible look like a Lucy Maud Montgomery book. Because I am a former folklore junkie, and because I have read a bit about the function of folklore, my armchair speculation of the images I was seeing was, this stuff is produced by the grandchildren of wartime Japan.
Think about the kinds of things that would have weighed on the collective consciousness of the average Japanse person in the early 2000's, and add in the dawning of the information age, which means all of a sudden, all around the world, people have access to in formation about their ancestors that they might have wished they never heard:
Details about what happened to people physically as a result of the A-Bomb strikes.
What Uncle Toshio may or may not have done during his tour in Nanking.
Help, our country was run for many years by a megalomaniac nutcase who legally declared himself God.
Oh, and he was in bed with a guy that orchestrated the systematic extremenation of six million people.
You walk into a house and an unescapable, fatal curse follows you forever. ( Hiroshima)The ghost that follows you is an angry young woman who was brutally abused and mutilated. (Nanking) A computer based virus comsumes people's chi, rendering them joyless, souless, suicidal human shells. ( The epidemic of depression and PTSD that developed in post- war Japan, as well as fallout- generated illness.)
More well- documented is America's horror franchise acting out the Cold War paranoia-- our movies were all about alien invaders and radiation born catastrophes/ epidemics. The collective terror at being conquered and occupied, and the collective fear/guilt at having unleased the atomic beast on the world to do God knows what.
We look at the Bible from a very long distance-- those funny clothes have been rendered into dust for millenia, and there is no chance of getting that first husband's name, ever. But humans are still humans, and humans work out their salvation by telling stories. By looking at how we do it now, it might give us some tiny clues as to why they might have done it then.
It's always bugged me that people refer to the Bible as " just a bunch of stories"-- not because it challenges the stories of the Bible, but because it disparages the importance of stories.
[ 16. May 2015, 15:40: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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