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Source: (consider it) Thread: The bible is a horror story
Komensky
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Again, Alisdair, I commend your eloquence.

I think how we answer those questions depends on how we see the Bible. I would argue that the Bible is written entirely by people—and therefore it tells the stories of (particular) people and their particular place with their particular bias. It's not true to say that their fondness of barbarity was a merely a product of its age. Compare the bloodthirstiest books of the OT to expressions of Budda, for example. There were human beings who knew that there were better ways to encourage human well-being than slavery, execution for adultery, disrespecting your parents, etc., as well as things like thought crime and even imaginary crimes like witchcraft. My argument here is that the Bible (especially the OT) is such a bad example of history and a bad example of philosophy and morality that I'm sure what it is for—other than to stake a claim that the Jews are God's chosen people.

There is clearly a gear change in many parts of the NT, but those too are not only hard to reconcile with each other, but even harder to reconcile with the OT.

I could imagine someone making a case for arguing that the OT is the history of the Jewish people and the NT is an attempt to tell the story of Jesus and his followers. That's different from arguing that there is something magical about these books.

I really do appreciate your succinct and friendly approach!

Best,

K.

[ 22. May 2015, 14:03: Message edited by: Komensky ]

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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Alisdair
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One of the things that I value in the OT is that, within the natural limitations of ordinary people, there is little attempt to sugar the pill. People are as they are: vain, arrogant, frightened, violent, hopeful, merciful, loving---and that is just one person.

We are the ones who attempt to idealise/demonize each other--the hero versus the villain. Which, no doubt, is why the 'hero' Jesus is such a disappointment to many. In the end he is not what was wanted, but perhaps he is what is needed.

quote:
It's not true to say that their fondness of barbarity was a merely a product of its age.
It was certainly a product of THEIR age, i.e. their geographic and cultural locality, but that is a gross generalisation, that misses the all the liveliness and goodness of their every day lives. We can certainly be horrifically bloodthirsty when we choose, most of us are just used to it being done to others, elsewhere.

To me the books of the Bible give a pretty accurate picture of what we are like. Basically we are neither good nor wise, despite our efforts. Periodically someone arises, like the Buddha, or Jesus, who seems particularly clear sighted. They are often cut down to size fairly smartly, and certainly ignored by many, or bent to fit other agendas.

There is nothing 'magic' about any of this, as far as I am concerned. But if Love is at the heart of what 'Life' is all about, it matters to try and understand what Love is, and what that can mean for us. Time for some poetry:


Love bade me welcome, yet my soul drew back,
Guilty of dust and sin.
But quick-ey'd Love, observing me grow slack
From my first entrance in,
Drew nearer to me, sweetly questioning
If I lack'd anything.

[full text edited pursuant to copyright practice]

-- George Herbert (1593-1632)

[ 22. May 2015, 14:51: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Eutychus
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hosting/

Alisdair, our practice is to restrict quotes from published works to a "reasonable length". Your quote appeared to be the entire poem, which is why I've edited it and instead put a link to the full text.

The fact that a work is old does not necessarily mean that somebody somewhere doesn't hold copyright on it, and the Ship prefers to err on the safe side in this respect.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alisdair
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Fair enough, I'll bear that in mind; although in this case I think we're safe enough. [Smile]
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Steve Langton
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by George Spigot
(initially quoting Svitlana v2)
quote:
SvitlanaV2
quote:

God engineered the death of his own son, but we don't take that as a sign that he didn't care....

I take it as a sign of either evil or mental sickness. No matter what the problem is murdering someone isn't any way to solve it and it's a terrible example to set.
Why and how is costly forgiveness "a terrible example to set"?? In what we call 'the atonement' God is not 'murdering' some otherwise uninvolved third party, he is acting in self-giving. This is a major implication of 'Trinitarianism' and also a major reason why 'unitarianism' of all kinds is wrong. It is because God set this example of costly forgiveness, in a dramatic and challenging act at a particular point in history, that modern views like yours, GS, exist.

As usual, the real horror here is all on the human side....

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Komensky
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
by George Spigot
(initially quoting Svitlana v2)
quote:
SvitlanaV2
quote:

God engineered the death of his own son, but we don't take that as a sign that he didn't care....

I take it as a sign of either evil or mental sickness. No matter what the problem is murdering someone isn't any way to solve it and it's a terrible example to set.
Why and how is costly forgiveness "a terrible example to set"?? In what we call 'the atonement' God is not 'murdering' some otherwise uninvolved third party, he is acting in self-giving. This is a major implication of 'Trinitarianism' and also a major reason why 'unitarianism' of all kinds is wrong. It is because God set this example of costly forgiveness, in a dramatic and challenging act at a particular point in history, that modern views like yours, GS, exist.

As usual, the real horror here is all on the human side....

Right. So if I'm following you: Jesus and God and the same being or at least of the same substance (?). Jesus knows that he is God and knows that he cannot die. He knows that even if he suffers mortal death, he will survive it anyway. This is the greatest possible sacrifice?

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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Stetson
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Komensky wrote:

quote:
Jesus knows that he is God and knows that he cannot die. He knows that even if he suffers mortal death, he will survive it anyway. This is the greatest possible sacrifice?


Wasn't there at one time some debate among theologians(and I mean Trinitarians), about whether or not Jesus knew he was God?

It's something I've only heard passing reference to, though I would assume that the reasoning behind the negative argument would be that being ignorant of his future ressurection would make his sacrifice on the cross all the more poignant.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Komensky
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Komensky wrote:

quote:
Jesus knows that he is God and knows that he cannot die. He knows that even if he suffers mortal death, he will survive it anyway. This is the greatest possible sacrifice?


Wasn't there at one time some debate among theologians(and I mean Trinitarians), about whether or not Jesus knew he was God?

It's something I've only heard passing reference to, though I would assume that the reasoning behind the negative argument would be that being ignorant of his future ressurection would make his sacrifice on the cross all the more poignant.

Of course there were many interpretations amongst various Christian factions for many centuries after his death.
Here is one recent version of how Jesus became God.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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Lamb Chopped
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Leaving aside the theological tangent, IMHO the worst (most painful) situation is to have faith but not absolute knowledge-level certainty of one's resurrection. Because a bit of hope does wonders when you're trying to torture someone.

That sounds like I think God is a torturer. Let me rephrase that. [Biased]

no, seriously, what I see in Jesus is not just the Son of God, but the son of man--someone who is so human he even has to have faith just as we do, faith based on the Scripture and not some woo-woo easy divine certainty--and those of us who live that way today know how difficult that is.

[ 22. May 2015, 19:39: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Komensky
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Leaving aside the theological tangent, IMHO the worst (most painful) situation is to have faith but not absolute knowledge-level certainty of one's resurrection. .

John 10:30 makes it sound like Jesus was pretty certain.

K.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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Martin60
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Alisdair.

Komensky.

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Love wins

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Leaving aside the theological tangent, IMHO the worst (most painful) situation is to have faith but not absolute knowledge-level certainty of one's resurrection. .

John 10:30 makes it sound like Jesus was pretty certain.

K.

So you're saying that one would expect Jesus to be much more upbeat about his upcoming crucifixion, then? A few meagre hours of great pain followed by eternal life is a fair trade-off, after all.

The same has been said of ordinary Christians facing death; they should all welcome it, and there should be rejoicing rather than mourning from the Christian community, since they believe the deceased is heading for eternal life in a better place.

One problem, I think, is that joyfully celebrating the death of a child, no matter how much 'better' we believed the afterlife to be for innocent young minds, might simply repel atheists and agnostics as an utterly perverted act. I'm not entirely sure, though: there seems to be a trend for 'joyful' funerals, and perhaps this includes the funerals of children.

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One problem, I think, is that joyfully celebrating the death of a child, no matter how much 'better' we believed the afterlife to be for innocent young minds, might simply repel atheists and agnostics as an utterly perverted act. I'm not entirely sure, though: there seems to be a trend for 'joyful' funerals, and perhaps this includes the funerals of children.

The views of the deceased should determine if the funeral is joyful or solemn. Failing that the view of the family.

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Last ever sig ...

blog

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Leaving aside the theological tangent, IMHO the worst (most painful) situation is to have faith but not absolute knowledge-level certainty of one's resurrection. .

John 10:30 makes it sound like Jesus was pretty certain.

K.

He was certain. But if you'll forgive me, the certainty of faith feels different than the certainty of knowledge. I think the main difference lies in the take-it-for-granted factor. There's a lot less of that in the certainty of faith--you're not always and in all places comfortable about it, certain though you may be, and you are still subject to the attacks of temptation (doubt). In this lies the pain.

If you like, compare it to the certainty that a man has about his wife's faithfulness even though he's been three years on assignment away from home. He may have every rational reason to trust her--character, history, current communication with her, and so forth. Yet that doesn't free him from the occasional 3 a.m. "What if?" attacks of the devil. And that is where the pain comes in. You can suffer from the attacks of doubt at the very same time as your heart is saying "This is totally irrational, don't give a moment's worry to it." Ay, there's the rub. How to banish those irrational thoughts.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:


One problem, I think, is that joyfully celebrating the death of a child, no matter how much 'better' we believed the afterlife to be for innocent young minds, might simply repel atheists and agnostics as an utterly perverted act.

Frankly, it repels me as an utterly perverted act. Anyone, in the event, heavens forfend, of the death of one of my children, trying to suggest to me that I rejoice that they're in a "better place" had better be pretty damned sure it's a "better place" because I'll very likely move them rather closer to it.

Why not follow that reasoning to its logical conclusion and rejoice that there are terrible diseases and child murderers and congenital life-limiting conditions that move children to this "better place"?

[ 23. May 2015, 14:57: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:


One problem, I think, is that joyfully celebrating the death of a child, no matter how much 'better' we believed the afterlife to be for innocent young minds, might simply repel atheists and agnostics as an utterly perverted act.

Frankly, it repels me as an utterly perverted act. Anyone, in the event, heavens forfend, of the death of one of my children, trying to suggest to me that I rejoice that they're in a "better place" had better be pretty damned sure it's a "better place" because I'll very likely move them rather closer to it.

Why not follow that reasoning to its logical conclusion and rejoice that there are terrible diseases and child murderers and congenital life-limiting conditions that move children to this "better place"?

It reminds me of that scene in tha movie Rabbit Hole, with Nicole Kidman as a bereaved parent, attending a support group. One evening she listens to a rather maudlin woman trying to rationalize the death of her own son.

WOMAN: Well, it's like some friends told us, God just wanted another angel up in heaven.

KIDMAN(icily, below her breath): So, why didn't he just make one?

[ 23. May 2015, 15:04: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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SvitlanaV2
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I'm reminded of the old saying: 'Everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die.' God is good for giving us heaven, but bad for making us die to get there!

What makes faith more painful now, in any case, is that many of us modern western believers aren't entirely convinced that there is a heaven to go to. There's far less of a psychological recompense now when tragedies happen, which must make death seem like little more than a horrible affront to our sensibilities.

Christianity offers some virtuous moral principles to the world, but as a religious system it seems quite weak if eternity in the presence of the Saviour is removed. I wonder if Muslims are as ambivalent about the afterlife as Christians are.

[ 23. May 2015, 23:10: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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If freewill operates, the Jesus did not know he would die when and how he did. He knew be would die, we all know that about ourselves, but not at the time, place or way it happened. That was up to the people involved making their free choices.

I'm pretty sure he knew his death wouldn't be of natural causes but the other people were real and not puppets. People who do and say stuff like Jesus did are targets in any society.

The idea that Jesus knew all also offends that he shared our human nature if he knew all. I can often understand my spouse before she says or does anything. I expect some version of shared understanding for Jesus/God but at what level who can truly say. Otherwise it's akin to Jesus as a persona adopted for a role play or intense computer videogame.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Alisdair
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quote:
Right. So if I'm following you: Jesus and God and the same being or at least of the same substance (?). Jesus knows that he is God and knows that he cannot die. He knows that even if he suffers mortal death, he will survive it anyway. This is the greatest possible sacrifice?

I realise the discussion has moved on somewhat, but having returned from my travels I'll have a go at responding to the above, posted by Komensky (posted 22 May, 2015 20:23). I'm sorry it's not more brief.

On the basis of the records that we have, assuming they are a fair account, the interpretation above seems highly unlikely.

'Jesus knows that he is God and knows that he cannot die.' -- this is a presumption, the record indicates some other reality. Jesus is recorded as saying that he and 'the Father are one', but we are free to feed into that our own prejudices and expectations. There is nothing in that statement, or any others expressing Jesus' understanding that suggests he had some super-human inside track, or that he had any kind of absolute assurance of the outcome, or that the reality of suffering---physical and spiritual---was any less for him than for anyone else, probably the reverse in fact.

We often seem stuck in looking at God in a very 'childish' and literalistic kind of way, e.g. a literary description of God as the 'ancient of days', paints in our minds the image of a bearded old man, and we then proceed to relate to God as though that image is accurate and complete.

Did Jesus know he could not die? I suspect he had knew full well that if someone stuck a sword in his guts or nailed him to a cross he would die. As far as I am concerned Jesus was a human being, just like you and I. Once dead he was in the same boat as anybody else---in God's hands.

When we talk about 'God' I imagine we are talking about the source of Life and Truth, and, as John wrote, 'God is Love' (the capitals are important). We're not talking about something that is functionally merely an enlarged representation of ourselves, we're talking about 'someone' who is beyond us, and totally out of our control, but who is fundamentally the source of all that is.

When Jesus says, 'I and the Father are one', and that, 'if you have seen me you have seen the Father', I don't find it credible to then leap to the conclusion is made in your question. Jesus sent his followers out in his name, effectively giving them authority to represent him---to be 'Christ' to the people they met. He said that God would provide His Spirit to give substance to that authority.

I think that is exactly what was happening with Jesus, in the claim that He and the Father are one. Jesus is the chosen archetype of the people we are called to be, as we 'follow Christ', put our trust in him, and receive God's Grace in our broken lives.

Now I'm beginning to write as some flag waving apparatchik. In the end, if 'God is Love' the meaning and reality of that has to play out in this reality that we all share, not in any fantasy that we create, either for or against that God is. There is no magic, only truth; the only question is whether we receive the truth, or run from it (that includes seeking to bend it to our own wills).

'Pie in the sky when you die' is not a credible reason for faith in God, if that does not also indicate, even demand, change and action here and now. And even if there is nothing beyond this life, a high understanding of 'Love', as something that in extremis enables the lover to sacrifice themselves totally for the well-being of the beloved is a very powerful, possibly the most powerful, expression of 'humanity' that we have when it comes to building a sustainable and compassionate framework for life.

Of course that's just my take on things, a snapshot of where I currently am with this 'God' idea. Other ideas and practices are available. That freedom to think, to choose, to be, and to take the consequences, is vital.

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Lamb Chopped
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There's another factor loose in this situation that doesn't operate for us as we face our own unknown deaths--namely, that Jesus had the Old Testament prophecies to go by regarding his. As he said,

quote:

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me.
John 5:39 (ESV)

Believing that, he would certainly trace out the features of his own life, and particularly his coming death (ex. Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and a bunch of other places). These are definitely on the vague and shadowy side, but clear enough to freak out anyone who believed they applied to him--and Jesus clearly had the whole lot memorized and well digested!

Which is all to say--it is perfectly possible for Jesus to lay aside his omniscience as God, to live and to face his approaching death without the direct help of omniscience--and yet to have a pretty good handle on what was going to happen in some detail. How? He could dig it out of the Scriptures, just as we do. (though it's obvious that Jesus is a far sharper student than I am, duh)

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Martin60
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& Lamb Chopped.

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Love wins

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Lamb Chopped
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Huh?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
He could dig it out of the Scriptures, just as we do. (though it's obvious that Jesus is a far sharper student than I am, duh)

Not sure that Jesus was doing that. I thought it was dug out when people were doing their darnedest to show that Jesus was fulfilling something.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Martin60
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The highest accolade is just using a commentator's name. I added yours to the two I'd used 11 previously. Sorry, I can' retract it.

npfiss... That's exactly what Jesus did ahead of anyone else all the way to Emmaus.

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Love wins

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
He could dig it out of the Scriptures, just as we do. (though it's obvious that Jesus is a far sharper student than I am, duh)

Not sure that Jesus was doing that. I thought it was dug out when people were doing their darnedest to show that Jesus was fulfilling something.
That's the cynical way to look at it, of course. But it's really quite striking when you come to it fresh, and I was not raised a con-evo nor did I have anybody/anything to prime me to see this in the Old Testament. I came to faith reading the Bible in near-isolation from other Christians (long story, but I began by treating it as a fairytale), and I started from Genesis, so in effect I was something of a Jew before ever I met Jesus. (I must say the NT seemed to fit seamlessly onto the foundation of the OT--Jesus was not at all strange when at last he came along, in my experience. I mean strange in terms of being a stranger. he is and always has been "strange" in a number of other senses!)

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Autenrieth Road

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I don't understand how that is evidence (*) that the NT stories were not retrofitted to be able to be seen as fulfillments of prophecies from the OT. It seems an equally possible explanation of your experience is that the retrofitting by the NT authors is there, and worked exactly as intended, producing your seamless experience.

(*) I'm not, by the way, quibbling over what constitutes evidence here. That is, I'm by no means saying "anecdote is not data".

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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I wasn't trying to do things from a textual science point of view (though I do have some of those skills); I think that would be another thread o' worms in itself. Here I'll just say that from what I know there is no reason to suspect that kind of duplicity.

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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Autenrieth Road

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I wasn't trying to take a textual science point of view. I'm trying to say that "reading OT then NT as a newcomer, they fit together" could be because events told in the NT really happened that way which seemed to be the point you drew from it, or it could be because the writers of the NT were at pains to write things so they fit with what had come before which seemed to me the point no prophet was trying to make.

When I read a Shakespeare history play and events in the fifth act turn out to have been foreshadowed by events in the first act, it could be because things happened that way in history. Or it could be that Shakespeare shaped his story to create that effect.

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Truth

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Martin60
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Yes, and the greatest offender in that regard was Jesus Himself. Or so His chroniclers say ...

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Komensky
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quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I wasn't trying to take a textual science point of view. I'm trying to say that "reading OT then NT as a newcomer, they fit together" could be because events told in the NT really happened that way which seemed to be the point you drew from it, or it could be because the writers of the NT were at pains to write things so they fit with what had come before which seemed to me the point no prophet was trying to make.

When I read a Shakespeare history play and events in the fifth act turn out to have been foreshadowed by events in the first act, it could be because things happened that way in history. Or it could be that Shakespeare shaped his story to create that effect.

What on earth are you talking about?

K.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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Lamb Chopped
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I think what she means (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Gospel writers might have written down what they THINK should have happened (based on prophecy) rather than what actually DID happen. Me, I rather doubt this, mainly because very few human beings are that skilled at writing (trust me, I've spent my life writing, editing, and picking apart texts of every sort), and also because they didn't do the writing of acts I-IV (that is, the OT prophecies themselves). That the early church could have come up with four people skilled enough to create such an impressive-but-fictional building on the OT framework just boggles my mind. I mean, FOUR people. If my old publishing house came up with one such skilled writer in five years, drawing from the million-plus population that is our denomination, it counted itself lucky. And the early church was frankly not that large--or literate.

It seems to me far more likely that they wrote down what they heard and saw, without adding fictitious fulfillments of prophecy. That takes a lot less writing skill to do a decent job.

[ 29. May 2015, 20:05: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Stetson
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LC:

Well, we can take a contemporary example of prophecy being supposedly fulfilled, ie. trying to make current events sound like the fulfillment of the Book Of Revelation.

Granted, this usually involves shoe-horning moreso than outright fabrication, but still, when you've got hundreds if not thousands of writers independently aware of what needs to be shoehorned(eg. the Antichrist should have some connection to Rome, because the BOR talks about seven hills; his name needs to add up to 666 in Hebrew numerology, for obvious reasons etc), it seems pretty clear that it's possible for large numbers of people to have knowledge of what scenarios are demanded by prophecy.

But of course, there is a revolving door of those decipherings, each one being discredited in pretty short order.

And, even before the current age of relatively widespread education and literacy, I'd wager that you had people with the basic knowledge of Revelation making the same sort of predictions, based on what they had been told, or(if they were literate) read.

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Martin60
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LC.

Full stop.

As for the BOR, it's the BOD updated. How much extra spooky stuff there's in there, if ANY, echoing down the millennia, we have no idea.

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Love wins

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
LC:

Well, we can take a contemporary example of prophecy being supposedly fulfilled, ie. trying to make current events sound like the fulfillment of the Book Of Revelation.

Granted, this usually involves shoe-horning moreso than outright fabrication, but still, when you've got hundreds if not thousands of writers independently aware of what needs to be shoehorned(eg. the Antichrist should have some connection to Rome, because the BOR talks about seven hills; his name needs to add up to 666 in Hebrew numerology, for obvious reasons etc), it seems pretty clear that it's possible for large numbers of people to have knowledge of what scenarios are demanded by prophecy.

But of course, there is a revolving door of those decipherings, each one being discredited in pretty short order.

And, even before the current age of relatively widespread education and literacy, I'd wager that you had people with the basic knowledge of Revelation making the same sort of predictions, based on what they had been told, or(if they were literate) read.

[Devil] You make my point for me. Have you EVER come across a decent, believable, even-halfway-well-written fictional fulfillment of Revelation? [Devil] [Devil] [Devil] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, we can take a contemporary example of prophecy being supposedly fulfilled, ie. trying to make current events sound like the fulfillment of the Book Of Revelation.

Presumably, they're not trying to, they just see parallels and honestly, though (thus far, apparently) incorrectly, think they are being fulfilled.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It seems to me far more likely that they wrote down what they heard and saw, without adding fictitious fulfillments of prophecy.

It seems to me most likely that they wrote down what others told them they heard and saw, or what others said they had been told still others heard and saw. By the time the story has passed through a few "generations," there's been ample opportunity for reflections on prophecy fulfillment to slip in.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
LC:

Well, we can take a contemporary example of prophecy being supposedly fulfilled, ie. trying to make current events sound like the fulfillment of the Book Of Revelation.

Granted, this usually involves shoe-horning moreso than outright fabrication, but still, when you've got hundreds if not thousands of writers independently aware of what needs to be shoehorned(eg. the Antichrist should have some connection to Rome, because the BOR talks about seven hills; his name needs to add up to 666 in Hebrew numerology, for obvious reasons etc), it seems pretty clear that it's possible for large numbers of people to have knowledge of what scenarios are demanded by prophecy.

But of course, there is a revolving door of those decipherings, each one being discredited in pretty short order.

And, even before the current age of relatively widespread education and literacy, I'd wager that you had people with the basic knowledge of Revelation making the same sort of predictions, based on what they had been told, or(if they were literate) read.

[Devil] You make my point for me. Have you EVER come across a decent, believable, even-halfway-well-written fictional fulfillment of Revelation? [Devil] [Devil] [Devil] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]
My point is not that the writings are credible or actually get fulfilled. SImply that it is possible for numerous and disparate writers to all know what is written in Revelation.
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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, we can take a contemporary example of prophecy being supposedly fulfilled, ie. trying to make current events sound like the fulfillment of the Book Of Revelation.

Presumably, they're not trying to, they just see parallels and honestly, though (thus far, apparently) incorrectly, think they are being fulfilled.
Well, somewhere between "making up parallels" and "honestly seeing parallels" lies "seeing those particular parallels that just happen to fit your pre-existing agenda."

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, somewhere between "making up parallels" and "honestly seeing parallels" lies "seeing those particular parallels that just happen to fit your pre-existing agenda."

I don't agree at all. If one believes it's true, then those parallels will surely stand out at at least first glance, without requiring even a tiny drop of dishonesty. It could even be a lack of critical thinking in some cases, but a genuinely innocent and wholly honest incorrect conclusion.

[ 31. May 2015, 03:43: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, somewhere between "making up parallels" and "honestly seeing parallels" lies "seeing those particular parallels that just happen to fit your pre-existing agenda."

I don't agree at all. If one believes it's true, then those parallels will surely stand out at at least first glance, without requiring even a tiny drop of dishonesty. It could even be a lack of critical thinking in some cases, but a genuinely innocent and wholly honest incorrect conclusion.
Well, I guess this can lead to a discussion about what exactly is meant by the phrase "willful blindness", or if the concept even has any validity at all.

I don't doubt that some protestant evangelicals sincerely believe that the Catholic Church is the Whore Of Babylon. And that they are being honest when they say they notice parallels between the Whore being drunk on the blood of martyrs, and the RCC's persecution of "bible believing Christians".

On the other hand, it seems a little odd how they don't apply the same logic to the protestant reformers or their successor groups, some of whom also killed people that the evangelicals would regard as "bible believing Christians".

So, we can wonder why the Whore/RCC parallel stands out for these people, whereas the Whore/Calvin etc parallel didn't stand out for them. Was it just that they were on an honest, open-minded search for parallels, and unfortunately happened to be home sick the day that protestant atrocities were discussed in history class?

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Alyosha
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, somewhere between "making up parallels" and "honestly seeing parallels" lies "seeing those particular parallels that just happen to fit your pre-existing agenda."

I don't agree at all. If one believes it's true, then those parallels will surely stand out at at least first glance, without requiring even a tiny drop of dishonesty. It could even be a lack of critical thinking in some cases, but a genuinely innocent and wholly honest incorrect conclusion.
Well, I guess this can lead to a discussion about what exactly is meant by the phrase "willful blindness", or if the concept even has any validity at all.

I don't doubt that some protestant evangelicals sincerely believe that the Catholic Church is the Whore Of Babylon. And that they are being honest when they say they notice parallels between the Whore being drunk on the blood of martyrs, and the RCC's persecution of "bible believing Christians".

On the other hand, it seems a little odd how they don't apply the same logic to the protestant reformers or their successor groups, some of whom also killed people that the evangelicals would regard as "bible believing Christians".

So, we can wonder why the Whore/RCC parallel stands out for these people, whereas the Whore/Calvin etc parallel didn't stand out for them. Was it just that they were on an honest, open-minded search for parallels, and unfortunately happened to be home sick the day that protestant atrocities were discussed in history class?

A lot of it is anti-Catholic prejudice. But the legitimacy (if it can be called that), I think, of the idea comes from the positioning of the Vatican in Rome (generally agreed to be the seven-hilled city spoken of in Revelation).

But for some people, even if the Vatican moved cities they would still blame the Catholic church. Christians should know better than to engage in that kind of prejudice really.

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Stetson
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quote:
But for some people, even if the Vatican moved cities they would still blame the Catholic church
Yes, just like they're still saying the EU is the fantastic creature described in Revelation, even though the EU now has more countries than that animal had heads.
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Alyosha
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
But for some people, even if the Vatican moved cities they would still blame the Catholic church
Yes, just like they're still saying the EU is the fantastic creature described in Revelation, even though the EU now has more countries than that animal had heads.
At the moment, some Christians are speculating that either a number of countries will leave the EU or that the existing countries will amalgamate in some way. It is actually a very imaginative way of looking at the European Union - as a kind of revived Roman empire.
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Martin60
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It shows nothing but imagination and no scholarship whatsoever. I should know. It is so dangerous that it creates and sustains, IS the antichrist it hysterically projects.

As the Spanish Inquisition realised three centuries ago, witchcraft wasn't the problem. Belief that it was was.

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Love wins

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Alyosha
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It shows nothing but imagination and no scholarship whatsoever. I should know. It is so dangerous that it creates and sustains, IS the antichrist it hysterically projects.

As the Spanish Inquisition realised three centuries ago, witchcraft wasn't the problem. Belief that it was was.

I think there is an element of truth in that Martin - and in the certainty that 'God is with' anyone engaged in an antichrist hunt. Modern-day witch hunts are not so dissimilar. I that what you have said is a really important.
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Martin60
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# 368

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@ChastMastr. Ignorance is no excuse. Neither is the weakness of those that know.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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The Beast is FIFA and Sepp Blatter is the Whore of Babylon!

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Love wins

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Brenda Clough
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OMG. Now it all makes sense.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Gramps49
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Sorry I did not continue to follow this thread for a while.

Martin Luther had an expression: The Bible is the straw on which the Christ-child lies.

He would say there is a lot of straw in the Bible. He used Revelations as an example.

Having been raised in farm country, let me tell you the straw he is talking about is the straw that is used for bedding of the animals. As such, there is a lot of--for lack of a better word--manure that can get mixed into the straw.

As I look through this thread it appeared that often times people were focusing on the straw (and what is in it) than on the Christ Child.

Luther had a term for that: he called it Bibleolitry. If there is one thing both the ardent athiest has in common with the most Bible believing fundamentalist is that they both practice Bibleolitry. Both pick and chose what they want to deny (in the case of the athiest) and want to believe (in the case of the Bible believing fundamentalist).

Yes, there are wretched horror stories in the Bible. Yes, there are very passionate sexual scenes that can be found it the bible. (One of the problems is we tend to judge the Bible by our modernistic moral standards, BTW). But this is all straw on which the Christ child lies.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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I think you are misremembering this:

quote:
The Bible is the cradle wherein Christ is laid.
Luther was not putting down any part of the Bible, as you imply; he was simply saying it is where we find Christ.

As for bibliolatry or bibliolatry--would you please give your source for this?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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