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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The soul of Britain
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I wanted more of an illustrative idea than a comprehensive list (probably attempting such a list would be worthy of a thread on it's own, in Heaven).
I think it (or something very like it) has been done before!
Despite having just contributed above, I also think there's a danger, as has been mentioned, of nationalism or simply heading into nostalgia.
To the extent that I think Marshall's ideas have any traction, I think the nature of disembodied spirits is a little harder to discern.
CS Lewis seemed to lend this idea some credit, too, by the way. From That Hideous Strength:
quote:
Every people has its own haunter... He doesn't make two blades of grass the same: how much less two saints, two nations, two angels. The whole work of healing Tellus [Earth] depends on nursing that little spark, on incarnating that ghost, which is still alive in every real people, and different in each... When Logres really dominates in Britain, when the goddess Reason, the divine clearness, is really enthroned in France, when the order of Heaven is really followed in China - why, then it will be spring.
[ 25. May 2015, 06:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:
The idea of a country having a soul seems to be just a quasi-religious way of dressing up nationalism.
Avoid!
Yes, possibly. I just thought it could make a helpful and interesting metaphor. I tend to see cities in a similar way and will always ask questions like 'How did London treat you?' when a friend returns from a trip there.
Inevitably it is always going to be a generalisation (and likely inaccurate), but there are some Biblical parallels with cities and countries being given characteristics (such as the assignation of animal symbolism for countries in the OT or the way in which Christ speaks of individual cities in the gospels).
I don't think it necessarily has to be jingoistic because the soul of Britain isn't very nationalistic in character.
Sometimes I see glimpses of the idea in things that people say. For example, after the recent election, when I expressed dismay at the result someone replied to me 'The people are afraid'. (I had thought people selfish and greedy).
With regards to revival, it would be good to see an inclusive revival. And more than that, I think it would be good to see a revival with freedom as a huge aspect to it (after all 'Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom').
I have tried to reason with God that a Christian revival would make things better for the people of this country and that it shouldn't be withheld because doing so is like a father disciplining an entire group of children for the misbehaviour of a few. As usual, I fear I have lost the argument.
But I still profoundly think that it would make things better (and be inclusive). That there are others who profoundly believe it would make things worse seems pretty obvious (and I'm not sure I can link to evidence that the drugs trade and some authorities are against such an idea if they are aware of it, but I think it is likely).
I don't, incidentally, think such a change in the nation would make pubs etc lose trade. In many ways I am naive in that I simply believe that the 'soul of Britain' would find healing in communication and dialogue with its/her creation.
I just think it is an interesting idea and I think that some of the opposition to a national awakening is misplaced.
Even the Christian community is divided over it, but it isn't in the Nicene creed that you have to either support or oppose a revival. Some Christians have a genuine fear that there is something dodgy about the whole idea and I get that.
[ 25. May 2015, 06:36: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
As you will have gathered, the topic has been much discussed here.
I think that before discussing further, and possibly before having any tangible faith for your prayers, you have to nail down precisely what you mean and expect by 'revival', and consider just how it would work, not in some nineteenth-century rose-tinted vision, but in your current context.
The city I live in was the starting-point of a revival among a specific people group in the late 1950s which spread worldwide and is to all intents and purposes still going on. It has even entailed national, institutional change. But in some respects it is an inch deep and a mile wide, and creates as many problems as it solves.
In a more recent development, a few days ago a born evangelist of my acquaintance came to my door and announced God had called him to evangelise the collection of artists, misfits, ex-prisoners, junkies and new age travellers that inhabit a soon-to-be-developed industrial wasteland in one part of my city. (By dint of driving his car up and playing worship CDs at full blast). He's met a lady who comes to our church who happens to work in this environment (and is half in it herself). He claims there's been a huge response and has now enjoined me, as a pastor, to take over, otherwise, his words, "you'll have 200 more people in your church soon".
I'm pretty sure I would have something meaningful to contribute to this effort, and I'm sure I could talk it up a lot, but the honest truth is that the prospect of this particular revival seems like a nightmare to me.
[ 25. May 2015, 07:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As you will have gathered, the topic has been much discussed here.
I think that before discussing further, and possibly before having any tangible faith for your prayers, you have to nail down precisely what you mean and expect by 'revival', and consider just how it would work, not in some nineteenth-century rose-tinted vision, but in your current context.
The city I live in was the starting-point of a revival among a specific people group in the late 1950s which spread worldwide and is to all intents and purposes still going on. It has even entailed national, institutional change. But in some respects it is an inch deep and a mile wide, and creates as many problems as it solves.
In a more recent development, a few days ago a born evangelist of my acquaintance came to my door and announced God had called him to evangelise the collection of artists, misfits, ex-prisoners, junkies and new age travellers that inhabit a soon-to-be-developed industrial wasteland in one part of my city. (By dint of driving his car up and playing worship CDs at full blast). He's met a lady who comes to our church who happens to work in this environment (and is half in it herself). He claims there's been a huge response and has now enjoined me, as a pastor, to take over, otherwise, his words, "you'll have 200 more people in your church soon".
I'm pretty sure I would have something meaningful to contribute to this effort, and I'm sure I could talk it up a lot, but the honest truth is that the prospect of this particular revival seems like a nightmare to me.
Don't worry, I don't know how to start a genuine revival and all I know of it has been from reading and studying books (I'm an armchair revivalist).
I would hope that a genuine revival wouldn't make things worse or cause any harm to individuals (beyond the loss of trade for some - e.g. the arms trade (as a result of an increase in social action)). If I thought it would cause harm I would not support the idea at all.
But I could live with supporting a revival which meant increased employment for many and loss of employment for a few (for example those within the arms trade). The increase in social action which accompanies large-scale revivals seems to make things better in so many aspects from what I have read.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
In my view it's better to think of revivals versus "normal life" in terms of the difference between crisis and process, rather than "good/less good" or "the norm/substandard lukewarmness".
In revivals, things - both good and bad - happen quickly and noticeably. In normal life, things - both good and bad - also happen, just more slowly.
Life is made up of both crises and processes. A good pastor/teacher will prepare the flock to deal with both, and to expect more process-based components than crisis-based ones*.
Teaching a church to expect only revival is to build up a false expectation and thereby run the risk of introducing false teaching and, as chris stiles has mentioned, false testimony.
In some ways, the Bible doesn't help, especially the NT, because it inevitably focuses on the "crises" in order not to be even longer than it actually is! (The OT does have a lot more background, for instance 1 Chr 1-8, but we usually skip over bits like that as "boring").
If you read Acts 19 aloud, it takes about three minutes. What most people, especially those of more excitable persuasion, take away is:
- the Ephesians receiving the Holy Spirit
- the extraordinary miracles God did through Paul
- the seven sons of Sceva débâcle
- the subsequent mass turning away from witchcraft
What they tend to miss is verse 9-10, which tells in a few words of how Paul taught daily in a lecture hall - for two years. You see my point?
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*Very many years ago I preached a series, I forget on which minor prophet, the working title of which was "how to live between revivals". But that probably just shows how thrawn I am.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
Regarding the definition of the term - I have spoken to a number of non-Christians about the whole concept and most of them understand the idea immediately to mean an increase in the number of Christians and the practice of Christianity (with occasional miracles). I have rarely had to define the terminology with them.
Even the Muslims I spoke to understood the whole idea as the concept seems to have a mirror-debate in Islam. They wanted to see an element of 'fun' in the whole thing and expressed dismay that this is so lacking in the debate. I never sensed any threat or great antagonism to the idea from Muslims and I did live among them in a Muslim majority community for seven years. But perhaps I am naive.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not an expert, but the 'mirror' concept within Islam which immediately springs to mind in terms of your broad definition of revival and national soul is the Ummah, which I think would make most Westerners quite nervous these days.
[ 25. May 2015, 08:00: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In my view it's better to think of revivals versus "normal life" in terms of the difference between crisis and process, rather than "good/less good" or "the norm/substandard lukewarmness".
In revivals, things - both good and bad - happen quickly and noticeably. In normal life, things - both good and bad - also happen, just more slowly.
Life is made up of both crises and processes. A good pastor/teacher will prepare the flock to deal with both, and to expect more process-based components than crisis-based ones*.
Teaching a church to expect only revival is to build up a false expectation and thereby run the risk of introducing false teaching and, as chris stiles has mentioned, false testimony.
In some ways, the Bible doesn't help, especially the NT, because it inevitably focuses on the "crises" in order not to be even longer than it actually is! (The OT does have a lot more background, for instance 1 Chr 1-8, but we usually skip over bits like that as "boring").
If you read Acts 19 aloud, it takes about three minutes. What most people, especially those of more excitable persuasion, take away is:
- the Ephesians receiving the Holy Spirit
- the extraordinary miracles God did through Paul
- the seven sons of Sceva débâcle
- the subsequent mass turning away from witchcraft
What they tend to miss is verse 9-10, which tells in a few words of how Paul taught daily in a lecture hall - for two years. You see my point?
==
*Very many years ago I preached a series, I forget on which minor prophet, the working title of which was "how to live between revivals". But that probably just shows how thrawn I am.
I'm not coming at you from a sinister angle. I hold an open-minded scepticism towards many modern day 'revivals'. I'm looking for the genuine.
Do Christian leaders resist the idea because it seems to imply a shed-load more work? From what I have read it is the Christian leaders who are used initially in revivals.
Any revival surely would include those who oppose it anyway? You have to admit that such a change from the status quo would make life much more interesting (putting aside the insistence that such a revival could be seen as a life or death issue on all levels).
I still say that my support for any future revival entirely depends on the ways individuals are treated. If an individual was hurt or harmed as a result of the revival then it wouldn't be worth it and would be against the whole message of the thing (a message which I assumed to be the gospel).
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I don't think you can manufacture a revival. You can only hope to cope with it as best you can.
I also think it's illusory to believe no damage will be done.
Alpha perhaps summarises my ambivalence about all this - I was working, pro bono, at the recent international conference in London.
There's no doubt in my mind that Alpha got a huge boost through the Toronto Blessing. I don't think that combination was engineered. It was happenstance or a God-incidence depending on how you see these things. I cordially dislike just about everything about Alpha, its classism, its elitism, its superficiality, and positively abhor its marketing ethos. It has damaged people, and there are people on the Ship to tell the tale.
But much to my annoyance, I can't dispel the notion that God is actually using the damned thing to bring people into a relationship with Christ, and, at least in the recent conference, into a broader recognition of the wider body of Christ.
Would I actively seek something like Alpha? No way. Should I acknowledge the good it does do and try to embrace that despite my broader reservations? Probably, yes.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I don't think you can manufacture a revival. You can only hope to cope with it as best you can.
I also think it's illusory to believe no damage will be done.
Alpha perhaps summarises my ambivalence about all this - I was working, pro bono, at the recent international conference in London.
There's no doubt in my mind that Alpha got a huge boost through the Toronto Blessing. I don't think that combination was engineered. It was happenstance or a God-incidence depending on how you see these things. I cordially dislike just about everything about Alpha, its classism, its elitism, its superficiality, and positively abhor its marketing ethos. It has damaged people, and there are people on the Ship to tell the tale.
But much to my annoyance, I can't dispel the notion that God is actually using the damned thing to bring people into a relationship with Christ, and, at least in the recent conference, into a broader recognition of the wider body of Christ.
Would I actively seek something like Alpha? No way. Should I acknowledge the good it does do and try to embrace that despite my broader reservations? Probably, yes.
Then I have been duped by an illusion that no physical harm will come of it. But if I am deceived then at least I know it.
I don't think a revival is worth the spilling of blood. I don't think a person's death or harm should occur to initiate or sustain an awakening. I don't think a revival should harm, it should heal.
But I'm willing to accept bruised egos and loss of trade or employment among some as a result of it.
A revival has its source in the gospel - the life of Christ and the things he taught. Like love, like mercy, like giving, like kindness. It should also be a unifying force in bringing denominations together, like a family engaged in a project. Including Catholics, Protestants and the Orthodox.
To divorce a revival from the message of love which Christ embodied is not a revival in the way I understand it.
[ 25. May 2015, 08:50: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Do Christian leaders resist the idea because it seems to imply a shed-load more work?
I'm not sure Christian leaders resist the idea. They may well resist particular attempts to bring about revival or particular visions of what revival will be, but that's something else.
'Revival' is something that has resulted in a lot of stereotypes, and sometimes those seeking revival do play upto those stereotypes (intentionally or otherwise). We have images of 'revival meetings', big tents with unlikely testimonies and emotionally manipulating addresses calling people forward to be saved. People talk about revival breathing life into 'dead churches' (and, if you were the minister or a member of one of those churches being called 'dead' isn't going to endear you to the revivalists!). We have 'prayer walks' around town praying for revival, stepping over the homeless sleeping in the door ways, or concentrating on the pub as a 'den of iniquity' while ignoring the high street fashion store employing staff on below-living wages and selling the produce of sweat shops in Asia.
Those are all particular ways in which 'revival' is presented or expected. And, there is plenty to criticise in all of them.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Then I have been duped by an illusion that no physical harm will come of it. But if I am deceived then at least I know it.
I don't know about physical harm, but psychological harm, certainly. You can read as much right back in Whitefield and Wesley!
quote:
I don't think a revival should harm, it should heal.
You seem to have missed my point about revival being a religious word for crisis. It does both more good and more damage in a shorter time.
quote:
But I'm willing to accept bruised egos and loss of trade or employment among some as a result of it.
A lot of what passes for revival these days seems to be about promoting, not bruising egos ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
And as Alan hints, I think dreams of entire evil industries spontaneously disappearing are largely a seductive alternative to the incremental, incarnational grind of bringing about that change on a day-to-day basis that commits you or me personally to actually doing something.
quote:
A revival has its source in the gospel - the life of Christ and the things he taught. Like love, like mercy, like giving, like kindness.
Says who? The word isn't actually in the Bible anywhere! quote:
It should also be a unifying force in bringing denominations together, like a family engaged in a project.
See Alan's priceless comment above on Christmas. The historical reality is that revivals have been divisive, and indeed Jesus' words about bringing a sword and setting parents against children etc. suggest there will always be divisive and violent aspects to the progress of the Gospel - as does a careful reading of Acts.
[ 25. May 2015, 09:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I agree with the places and events thing. I also agree that Pentecostalism can be very holistic - but only within particular parameters.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I don't know about physical harm, but psychological harm, certainly. You can read as much right back in Whitefield and Wesley!
and going back to Edwards one sees a similar position (as an example, it's hard to escape the conclusion that Abigail Hutchinson essentially starved herself to death).
quote:
You seem to have missed my point about revival being a religious word for crisis. It does both more good and more damage in a shorter time.
I think seeing revival as an intensification of sorts is a very good model, thanks for that ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
A massive family argument, 15 pairs of socks and an ill-fitting pullover? "Lord, we wanted revival not a collection of bad cracker jokes!". "But, I thought you wanted the soul of Britain ... that is bad jokes"
Ho ho ho.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
At the risk of sounding patronising, I used to be an armchair revivalist and took a lot of revivalist accounts at face value until I read around the subject more deeply.
I am not saying we should take 18th and 19th century accounts with a pinch of salt - but we do need to see these things in their cultural and historical contexts.
What revivalism does - and Pentecostal revivalism in particular - is to focus on the more black and white elements - it takes out the nuance and shades of grey.
To put it crudely, Pentecostals create a Wesley, a Whitefield or a Jonathan Edwards in their own image.
Despite all the stories from 1904/05 there is absolutely no evidence of pubs closing and beer being poured down the drains - what a waste - and although there was some reduction in petty crime, pre-1904 Wales had a low crime rate.
Also, as I've said here before, there is only so long you can stand in a chapel singing revivalist hymns - people need other outlets and in Wales - for all the protests of the revivalists - that tended to consist of sport, the Eisteddfod and Liberal - then Labour politics. The revivalists used to rail against sport and almost anything that wasn't obviously spiritual - although the more moderate chapels had sports teams and amateur dramatics.
There was also an ugly side in North Wales that is often overlooked - in some villages Anglican families were forced out by their non-conformist neighbours. You don't read about that in popular revivalist literature.
Elsewhere, the Anglicans benefitted from the revival as much as the chapels did.
From what I've heard from people whose parents or grandparents were involved, what started spontaneously quickly became formulaic and as many people were put off or inoculated against the Gospel by revivalism as were attracted or converted by it.
Both things were going on at one and the same time.
I've visited Gypsy churches in Spain that came from the 'Gypsy revival' and the same thing seemed to be happening there.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
The idea of asking God for a revival and God saying no is a new one for me. I must confess that I mostly think of revival in terms of people developing a deeper spiritual life (through reading the Bible, prayer, church attendance etc), experiencing the positive effects of that, and it then catching on. I'm not saying that the Spirit isn't in there by the way, because surely some of the most important and powerful work the Spirit does is in the little things?
On a friend's facebook post the other day, a Pentecostal friend of theirs was talking about people going to Pentecostal churches because of big signs and wonders, raising the dead etc etc. I'm not cessationist, but that sort of talk makes me sympathise with them! Like Gandalf, God is not a 'conjurer of cheap tricks' - signs and wonders fade away, they're not deep long-lasting spirituality. The Spirit nudges us and intercedes for us - and convicting people into feeding the hungry and sheltering the homeless is far more the Spirit's line of work than putting all the arms dealers out of a job suddenly (as much as I would love to see the arms trade vanish).
Also bear in mind that most people would see the kind of thing mentioned in terms of revival by the OP as general good human qualities, not Christian ones. Certainly most non-Christians I know would associate a revival with an increase in Christian (or 'Christian') busybody puritanical behaviour.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yep - all that Pomona ...
There are upsides and downsides to all these things. A kind of busybody, interfering form of Puritanical religion was certainly a feature of the revivals in the Hebrides, South Wales and even East Anglia in the early to mid 20th century ...
We're talking 1904/05 Wales, early 1920s Suffolk/parts of Norfolk and the North East of Scotland ('the forgotten revival') and the late 1940s early 1950s on the Isle of Lewis.
That isn't to knock the positive effects, but with revival as with anything else there's the rough and there's the smooth ...
On the subject of revival, I think I've posted Steve Latham's helpful definition before when this topic has cropped up.
Adapting Andrew Walker's famous 'R' formula for the various strands of 'restorationism' - R1, R2 etc ... Latham identified 6 levels of 'revival':
R1: spiritual quickening of the individual believer.
R2: a deliberate meeting or campaign, especially among Pentecostals to deepen the faith of believers and bring non-believers to faith.
R3: an unplanned period of spiritual enlivening in a local church, quickening believers and bringing unbelievers to faith.
R4: a regional experience of spiritual awakening and widespread conversions eg. the Welsh, Hebridean, East African and Indonesian revivals, and possibly Pensacola in the 1990s (Latham wrote this in 2002).
R5: Societal or cultural 'awakenings' eg. the transatlantic First and Second Awakenings.
R6: the possible reversal of secularism and 'revival' of Christianity as such.
See: On Revival: A critical Examination, ed. Andrew Walker and Kirstin Aune, Paternoster Press, 2003.
I think most posters here would be broadly comfortable with this definition - and R4 and R5 is probably the form of 'revival' that Alyosha is thinking of - with hopes that these might extent to R6.
Would that be correct, Alyosha?
If so, the question remains as to whether we can have a realistic expectation of R4, R5 and R6 in a post-Christian, increasingly secularised UK?
On the 'soul' thing - I think it can be possible to think in terms of the 'soul of a nation' etc without it necessarily drifting into crude nationalism and phyletism ... but it's a fine line.
Many of my Orthodox contacts - but by no means all - would readily accept that notions of 'Holy Russia' and so on can easily spill over into forms of chauvinism and even fascism.
I'd also suggest it's possible to think in terms of 'genius locii' - and sense of place etc - but that might be material for another thread.
I don't doubt that there have been 'genuine' revivals with lasting and far-reaching effects - however, in this fallen and imperfect world I submit that we're barking up the wrong tree if we go looking for some kind of shining perfection.
Like Eutychus, I think many of us are overly inclined to take a highly romanticised view of the Book of Acts and equally revivalist accounts which are often partial, written to promote a particular viewpoint (whether Arminian, Calvinist or whatever else) and which focus on the spectacular rather than the mundane.
In Acts 14:4 we read that the 'people of the city were divided, some sided with the Jews and others with the Apostles'.
You're never going to get a situation where everyone gets on board. That didn't happen in the 1st century, why should we expect it to be any different now?
There was a lot of talk - a lot of talk - about revival in the 1980s and '90s. Eutychus and others will well remember it ... the psyching up of expectations, the various unfulfilled prophecies and a lot of trumpeting and harrumphing around.
It seemed to boil over about the time of the Toronto Blessing and apart from some sporadic outbursts and claims, I've not heard a great deal of 'revival talk' since that time - mainly because I don't move in circles these days where this expectation is rife - although I do hear it at times from some of the New Wine-y Anglicans.
Will there be another revival? Can we expect one?
I actually think it's the wrong question to ask.
I think we ought to simply get on with whatever it is we're doing to serve the Kingdom and aim to help alleviate need and suffering whenever we can.
Yes, we can avail ourselves of means to quicken our spiritual lives - but that might not be particularly 'revivalist' in flavour. For some it could be a monastic retreat, for others participation in study groups or forms of activism ...
There's this whacky idea out there that if we all somehow strain and go 'GGGNNNNnnnnnnnn ...' we can somehow summon up revival.
It don't work like that.
Let's just get on with loving our neighbours, serving our communities, doing those things that need doing - however unspectacular - and if the sovereign Lord sees fit to honour our efforts then that's great.
Mithering about revival seems like a great big red-herring to me ... and the further I get from revivalist forms of spirituality the more I come to that conclusion. That's not to say that I disparage 'enthusiasm' and oomph - we need those -but equally it also means that we don't spend our lives teetering on the brink of some imagined 'new thing' that's going to put everything 'just so' ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
Yes, I mean:
R5: Societal or cultural 'awakenings' eg. the transatlantic First and Second Awakenings.
R6: the possible reversal of secularism and 'revival' of Christianity as such.
(Rather than a small scale Pentecostal Elmer Gantry style revival).
On the Puritanical nature of past revivals and revivalists, I think it is likely that there would be an element of that in any future revival. Personally I would favour greater freedom in every sense. I think a revival should free a person up rather than leave them feeling stifled and constrained.
On the prayer aspect of it - I don't really think it is fair to say that a national revival should equate to a personal deepening of faith (this is a different thing). That is like saying a miracle is a flower or a new-born baby. They are nice, but they are not miracles.
So, I take God's answer as a firm 'no'. However, the often quoted scripture is that "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
I'm not saying I've entirely turned away from my wicked ways, but you would think that a few Christians would have managed to do so. And as a result it is still like asking a father for a Christmas present for an entire family, only to be told that the misbehaviour of a few means that Christmas is cancelled for all.
Learning not to blame others for such unanswered prayers is perhaps something that I need to learn to do more of.
However, there is no revival. There is an ebb. Many people prefer the ebb. And so the status quo remains. I would suggest that the authorities and the drug dealers and the arms traders are also very content with this status quo. I'm not.
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Eutychus
From the edge
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
And as a result it is still like asking a father for a Christmas present for an entire family, only to be told that the misbehaviour of a few means that Christmas is cancelled for all.
The text in Chronicles may be oft-quoted, but you have to bear in mind a) it was very definitely directed at OT Israel, so you first have to make a case for it applying today b) it is quite an interpretative leap from there (a promise of healing for the land and forgiveness of the people of God) to any of the definitions of revival being discussed.
quote:
I would suggest that the authorities and the drug dealers and the arms traders are also very content with this status quo. I'm not.
Can you think of a revival, any revival, that has significantly reduced armed conflict? I can't, at least not off the top of my head. In fact not a few people think that World War I was a direct (Satanic) consequence of the Welsh revival (to reverse its positive impact). From what I can tell, the alleged recent Cwmbran "revival" seems to have destroyed what sounds to have been a valiant effort to cater to drug abusers.
My experience is that God expects us to be in there among the druggies and dealers and the violent and bringing the good news, one bite at a time and most often with only mitigated success.
If God chooses to sober up and disarm a whole bunch of people at a time, I'm not going to stand in his way, but the harder I look the less I see any real precedent for this.
[ 25. May 2015, 17:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
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Posted
quote:
Alyosha: That is like saying a miracle is a flower or a new-born baby. They are nice, but they are not miracles.
(I think they are.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Yes, I mean:
R5: Societal or cultural 'awakenings' eg. the transatlantic First and Second Awakenings.
R6: the possible reversal of secularism and 'revival' of Christianity as such.
On what timescales would you expect R5 and R6 to occur ? And what evidence do you have that the First and Second Good Enough Awakenings - of themselves - actually changed things culturally/societally in a direction that was distinctively Christian ? What examples of R6 are you thinking of from a historical perspective?
It is notable that for all the noise, the evidence for any societal changes accompanying any of the revivals in Britain over the last 100 years have been greatly lacking. Conversely, if you look for those defining moments in the last 100 years when the country has changed direction (the election of 1945 for instance), revival has been nowhere to be seen.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Yes, I mean:
R5: Societal or cultural 'awakenings' eg. the transatlantic First and Second Awakenings.
R6: the possible reversal of secularism and 'revival' of Christianity as such.
(Rather than a small scale Pentecostal Elmer Gantry style revival).
On the Puritanical nature of past revivals and revivalists, I think it is likely that there would be an element of that in any future revival. Personally I would favour greater freedom in every sense. I think a revival should free a person up rather than leave them feeling stifled and constrained.
On the prayer aspect of it - I don't really think it is fair to say that a national revival should equate to a personal deepening of faith (this is a different thing). That is like saying a miracle is a flower or a new-born baby. They are nice, but they are not miracles.
So, I take God's answer as a firm 'no'. However, the often quoted scripture is that "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
I'm not saying I've entirely turned away from my wicked ways, but you would think that a few Christians would have managed to do so. And as a result it is still like asking a father for a Christmas present for an entire family, only to be told that the misbehaviour of a few means that Christmas is cancelled for all.
Learning not to blame others for such unanswered prayers is perhaps something that I need to learn to do more of.
However, there is no revival. There is an ebb. Many people prefer the ebb. And so the status quo remains. I would suggest that the authorities and the drug dealers and the arms traders are also very content with this status quo. I'm not.
Re the prayer aspect (sorry, no good at quoting small sections of a post!), that's not exactly what I mean - I meant that a revival is a consequence of a deepening of faith. It's like the phrase 'the harder you work, the luckier you are' - I feel like expecting a revival out of nowhere with a purely supernatural cause is not how most revivals happen.
To take Cwmbran as an example - the church there sounds like it was doing a good thing with local addicts. To me that is the real revival of the Spirit going on, but people got caught up in the signs and wonders and so it fizzled out. A revival takes work on behalf of the revived. Israel in Josiah's time is a good Biblical example IMO - Josiah just didn't ask God for a revival, he got it started. That's not denying that the Holy Spirit was involved, just that God doesn't force revival on people but works with them to produce revival.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alyosha
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# 18395
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Posted
Sorry Pomona, I misunderstood.
I also hope LeRoc that you will forgive me for not thinking that a flower or a baby is a miracle. I appreciate them and they are very nice (with mustard), but I find it very difficult to see them as miracles as I understand the word.
I find myself too wrapped up in this debate and it is God's kingdom anyway. He is making the choice not to send a revival here (and possibly not in my lifetime. I have to adjust to that fact. But I don't have to like it.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I suppose you could then look for how smaller-scale revival could happen around you - in your church or your workplace or whatever.
I feel like I don't quite 'get' why revival is so necessary in the form you want it? Could you maybe expand on why you see revival as so necessary?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I suppose you could then look for how smaller-scale revival could happen around you - in your church or your workplace or whatever.
I feel like I don't quite 'get' why revival is so necessary in the form you want it? Could you maybe expand on why you see revival as so necessary?
Revival would never come in the form I want it. I want a revival in which love and freedom reign and the atmosphere changes for the better and miracles are experienced. I want an exciting, inclusive, fun revival. I doubt that would happen. Not everyone likes Christmas either.
I think it is necessary though because, not only do believers supposedly feel happiness and joy, but also because of the knock-on social impact to the general population. I think that the presence of revivals reduces all kinds of unnecessary deaths and acts as a kind of genuine healing for people in general.
Maybe I have romantasiced it (although I would like to know how I could romantisice something which has never occurred in my lifetime), but I simply believe that it is the direction that the country should take and that in doing so, it will make things better. It doesn't matter as I am not a leader and as a result I get little say in decisions made outside my own life. I am willing to accept that I cannot change the world, but I am not willing to accept that I can't change my own world for the better. There are too many concessions made in this life by people and it stinks.
That's without even going into the idea of people receiving eternal life and evil being as defeated as it can be.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I feel that to say you want revival so people are happy and less ill/die less(??) is definitely romanticising it. Sorry. It sounds quite different to the basis of most Christian revivals - it sounds a bit New Agey to me.
Of course you can romanticise something you've never experienced, this is how most romanticising happens! Eg people romanticise the Tudors or the French Revolution or being a 50s housewife. Generally people who went through those things know the reality of it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I feel that to say you want revival so people are happy and less ill/die less(??) is definitely romanticising it. Sorry. It sounds quite different to the basis of most Christian revivals - it sounds a bit New Agey to me.
Of course you can romanticise something you've never experienced, this is how most romanticising happens! Eg people romanticise the Tudors or the French Revolution or being a 50s housewife. Generally people who went through those things know the reality of it.
People would die less because there would be increased social action from believers in which the homeless, the needy, the vulnerable would be cared for better. Crime rates would lower. Drug deaths would decrease.
I feel like I'm espousing something totally alien to you all. All I'm promoting is the idea that a people return to their creator, the source of love who made you and I and the earth.
I simply can't seem to win in this and I find it frustrating that the greatest opposition seems to come from within the Church. But it is God's decision and God is clearly of the same mind as you all.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I feel that to say you want revival so people are happy and less ill/die less(??) is definitely romanticising it. Sorry. It sounds quite different to the basis of most Christian revivals - it sounds a bit New Agey to me.
Of course you can romanticise something you've never experienced, this is how most romanticising happens! Eg people romanticise the Tudors or the French Revolution or being a 50s housewife. Generally people who went through those things know the reality of it.
People would die less because there would be increased social action from believers in which the homeless, the needy, the vulnerable would be cared for better. Crime rates would lower. Drug deaths would decrease.
I feel like I'm espousing something totally alien to you all. All I'm promoting is the idea that a people return to their creator, the source of love who made you and I and the earth.
I simply can't seem to win in this and I find it frustrating that the greatest opposition seems to come from within the Church. But it is God's decision and God is clearly of the same mind as you all.
But why does this need revival? Surely this can happen without a Pentecostal type revival?
Maybe God wants people to work at serving Him rather than waiting around for revival to happen.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
To take Cwmbran as an example - the church there sounds like it was doing a good thing with local addicts. To me that is the real revival of the Spirit going on, but people got caught up in the signs and wonders and so it fizzled out.
I don't think that's what happened at all. As I understand it (which is admittedly from some distance), the centre for addicts was doing a good but discrete work under the leadership of its founding couple, who I think also founded the church. They seem to have handed over leadership to a bunch of other people who opportunistically used their new-found positions of authority for their own ends and wrecked the vehicles. There were no independently attested 'signs and wonders' at all.
Otherwise, alyosha, I agree with Pomona that there's nothing distinctly "revival"-like about your aspirations. People are engaged in the kind of thing you express all the time, it just doesn't get hyped up and make the news.
[ 25. May 2015, 18:42: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
There really must be more to life than this.
I'm not attempting to promote a Pentecostal-denomination revival. Yesterday was the day of Pentecost as celebrated by many Christians. As a result I wrote the OP with the intention of creating an interesting discussion on revivals (as had happened on the day of Pentecost).
If ever a revival happens and people choose to go to church I would happily see them in Catholic churches (or any other churches).
I believe that an awakening can make things better for a country in the same way that I believe that Christ can make things better for an individual.
All I'm doing is to ask people to think about it and resist the urge to throw open-minded scepticism out of the window. People polarize one way or the other on the issue and I am trying (badly it seems) to create a centre ground on the issue.
Or get people to pray and ask for it too.
[ 25. May 2015, 19:16: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Eutychus - sorry for the misinformation.
Alyosha - you're missing my point. I'm talking about a Pentecostal/charismatic style revival - my point is that revival can happen in other ways but be unnoticed. I don't think anything you've mentioned is specific to a revival, but it happens because Christians put the effort in - essentially. I don't understand why Christians are supposed to pray for revival rather than bringing revival by their actions?
You may see empty churches and not a lot happening, but actually the Spirit is moving in all kinds of churches, just maybe not obviously.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Alyosha: I think the problem is that you are looking for something that is ill-defined when it comes to specifics and that has no actual precedent in Scripture.
Take the day of Pentecost.
Yes, 3,000 people are said to have believed on that day, been baptised and added to the Church. It was, by anyone's standards, a "good meeting". Luke closes the narrative with a summary of all the believers having everything in common, caring for each other's needs, and so on.
Yet by chapter 6 we learn that there are disputes about how this social action is being carried out, and while we read of action to remedy the problem, we never get told it was really sorted.
By chapter 8 the gospel has reached Samaria, but controversy is following hard on its heels, which will soon get worse as full-blown Gentiles receive the Spirit. A kind of truce is brokered in Acts 15 but the epistles clearly show the argument is ongoing thereafter.
By the end of Acts the gospel has reached most of the known world, but there is absolutely no evidence of, say, a general fall in crime or institutional change. When institutional change did arrive with Constantine, a lot of the people who champion revival seem to think it's the worst thing that could possibly have happened to authentic Christianity.
Do you take the Scriptures as a reliable guide to Christian experience? If you do, I challenge you to find solid grounds in them for expecting the kind of 'Christmas every day' you aspire to. If you look carefully, and I'd say, truly biblically, you'll find the picture is much less clear-cut.
[ 25. May 2015, 19:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm going further than Pomona, I actually think Alyosha that you are romanticising not only any possible current or future revival - but you are romanticising past revivals as well.
In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that you have a completely 'over-realised' view of the whole thing and that if you're not careful you're going to end up missing out on less 'spectacular' things that God is doing - to use the jargon - or disappointed because you're chasing some kind of chimera.
I used to belong to a church that believed that we were on the cusp of revival ... and that if and when x, y or z happened then we'd see a massive turning to Christ. The church grew quite large at one point but constantly suffered from painful splits and defections ...
I visited it last Sunday, for the first time in a good few years - (we left 15 years ago but I've been to a reunion since and am still in touch with one or two people - although most of my friends from those days have moved onto other churches or to none) -
There were only about 30 or 40 adults plus kids. Back in the day there were about 300 to 400 of us at the high-water mark.
The reality is, there has never, ever been a time when what you are describing was happening on the scale that you suggest - no, not once. Ever.
Sure, there have been times when religious observance has increased or 'revived' or when large numbers of nominal believers have been 'quickened' in their faith or substantial numbers of unbelievers have been converted.
The First and Second Evangelical Awakenings were examples of that - but not everything was hunky-dory nor could it have been ...
There have been some social impacts from revivals but generally, social change has come about through a combination of factors - and the general pervasiveness of Christian influence within Christendom has been one of those factors - irrespective of revival.
The Quakers were opposing slavery, for instance, a good while before the evangelicals got on board with the Abolitionist movement. In fact, a lot of Abolitionists were Unitarians and Free-thinkers - not a lot of revivalism there.
Whitefield never opposed slavery - in fact, he thought it was a good thing. Wesley spoke out about it and wrote about it and his last known letter was to William Wilberforce encouraging him in his efforts to work for a ban on the slave trade.
Yes, revivalism played a part in that - but so did the Enlightenment.
These things don't boil down to nice, neat formulae and recipes.
I'm also, I'm afraid, not sure you've understood some of the points that have been made here. My impression isn't that people are against the concept of 'revival' - more, they are suspicious of revivalism.
There's a difference.
Also, you seem to have this idea that revival is like some kind of supernatural mist or miasma which God somehow 'sends' into the atmosphere ...
That seems a pretty common view within some forms of Pentecostalism, and whilst it's one I can understand, it's not how I see things these days.
In some ways it's a kind of reverse form of 'real presence' ... instead of the presence of God being 'realised' in word and sacrament - as per the more sacramental churches and in the Reformed tradition (in a somewhat different way) it's as if there's some kind of 'glory cloud' that's going to descend and make everything better ...
I can understand the sentiment, but no longer go along with the out-working - although I do believe in 'thin places' or times when the presence of God is more 'apparent' or discerned - as it were ...
But, if we agree with the Orthodox that 'God is everywhere present and fillest all things ...' then surely we are to take a more Incarnational stance and see God at work in and through the everyday and the quotidian?
So, yes, babies, flowers and wonderful landscapes, as well as good food, fun, fellowship, love and respect etc etc are all 'miraculous' ... that doesn't preclude miracles in the sense that you mean them - direct, supernatural interventions - but it ain't all about that ... nice though it would be - as well as problematic - if these things did occur more regularly than they apparently do.
I don't know if I'm making any sense, but I would suggest that we need to aim for a more 'grounded' and Incarnational spirituality - one that doesn't dismiss the supernatural - far from it - but which also rejoices in the ordinary and the everyday and sees God at work in that.
I often tell people about my Great Aunt Nell. She had severe cerebral palsy and was confined to a couch for much of her life. Her body was so contorted that her face was almost looking across her back - and she couldn't stop dribbling into a napkin tucked beneath her chin. She was actually quite scary and distressing to look at in some ways - but boy, did she exude love. It was palpable.
She never went to a revivalist meeting, she never had any mountain-top spiritual experiences but she was very devout. The vicar who used to bring her communion each week said at her funeral that he'd learned far more about patience, long-suffering and faith from her than anything he'd studied at seminary.
I couldn't make the funeral, but my mum said that as her surviving sisters gathered to pray at the graveside the sense of love, grief and yes - faith - was so tangible it hit you in the gut and nearly bowled you over. It was like an electric shock.
Where was the revival there?
It was crude, raw, simple, no frills working-class ... it was 'vival' ...
That's what we want, ordinary people living out their faith in everyday, ordinary circumstances - in the muck and the grit.
Over-realised, cloud-cuckoo land eschatology isn't where it's at. Revivalism is a red-herring.
If you want people to be 'free' then perhaps freeing people from some kind of erroneous, over-egged view of revival and revivalism would be a good place to start.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
I hear what you're all saying. Let me go away and think about it all. At the moment it feels like a surrender to downgrade my expectations and I find life disappointing in many ways. So please allow me to consider the things you have said.
In terms of eschatology, you have to admit though, that an end time revival is more positive than some of the other positions.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Apologies for the double-post ...
Was Pentecost 'revival' in the way you've defined it?
Whatever else Pentecost was it was the 'birthday of the Church' ... and what we see on subsequent occasions in the Acts of the Apostles when God the Holy Spirit is 'poured out' on gatherings of people it's generally a kind of 'birthday' for other groups - the Samaritans receive the Spirit, the Gentiles in Cornelius's household do too ...
Ok, so there's the subsequent 'filling' / 'refilling' or 'top-up' in Acts 4 for some of those who were present at the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2 ...
God is God and can do whatever pleases him.
All I'm suggesting is that he's active in and through all sorts of circumstances - even those that may not fit our particular schema or programme.
Yes, we'd all love to see lots more people coming to faith, lots more people involved in churches of all kinds - be they Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. Yes, we should work towards that end.
We've got to work from where we are. Very often, that's not a particular exciting place - but if we look closely enough we'll see signs of God at work despite it all.
If you've got some kind of romanticised view of what 'revival' entails then you are always going to be disappointed.
What I saw of the 'Gypsy revival' in Spain didn't strike me as particularly impressive on one level, to be honest - although it was great to meet some believers from that background - people with very different life-experiences to my own. I was humbled by their warmth of the welcome we received. Their flamenco-style worship music and distinctive 'off-the-beat' hand-clapping style was impressive too -- but these people were still poor, they still had lots of social problems ...
Revival and 'revivalism' can, and does, give some oomph but it doesn't solve all the problems.
Also, take Lord Shaftesbury, a 'prayer-book evangelical' and High Tory - he introduced some of the most far-reaching legislation in terms of impact on the lives of working people in this country - reducing factory working hours and improving conditions - and he was completely and utterly opposed to revivalism of any form. He couldn't stand the Salvation Army, for instance ...
He wanted nothing to do with revivalist enthusiasm. To what extent did 'Pentecost-style' revival impel him in his career?
It didn't.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
In terms of eschatology, you have to admit though, that an end time revival is more positive than some of the other positions.
Unfortunately, sound doctrine is not a case of picking and choosing the bits we like.
And once again, I think it's a question of intensity. If there's more good, there's more bad too. I have some sympathy for Roger Forster's "obstetric" view of eschatology (cf Romans 8, pangs of childbirth, etc.). The 'crises' of religious awakening and of evil are like successive contractions. Yes we can expect them to eventually 'give birth' to a new heaven and a new earth and the fulness of the kingdom, but not painlessly or without mess, and the important thing is the entire process.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I hear what you're all saying. Let me go away and think about it all. At the moment it feels like a surrender to downgrade my expectations and I find life disappointing in many ways. So please allow me to consider the things you have said.
I think that looking forward to something better isn't a bad thing, as long as you don't have an over-realized expectation of when it arrives.
quote:
In terms of eschatology, you have to admit though, that an end time revival is more positive than some of the other positions.
No. Surely what's far more important is the end - a new heavens and a new earth, God living with us, and every tear wiped from every eye - to miss this is to confuse a pregnancy with a baby.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
The friend of a friend I mentioned earlier talked about non-charismatic churches dying and emptying. While, clearly, charismatic evangelical churches are very popular, I think churches change and evolve according to the surroundings. The CoE's decline started much further back than many think, essentially from the Industrial Revolution - Anglican clergy were seen as in with the squire and the establishment, and so working and eventually middle class loyalty to them waned with the workforce's changes (with some exceptions, eg Anglo-Catholic slum parishes). Baptist, Methodist, Congregationalist, Salvationist etc churches were strengthened in this time, because their structures were much more suited to the developing industries then.
Now of course, those industries are now declining (if not gone totally) and many of those mainstream Protestant churches are struggling, and charismatic churches are picking up. It all comes and goes in waves - that's not revival, just the narrative of history. Who knows, we might get an RC/Taize/monastic upswing/revival next as people start to want to 'unplug'.
I think personality also plays a role - introverts are not going to have the same kind of revival (or 'revival') as extroverts.
And yes, it's revivalism I'm wary of. Obviously revival would be great, but it needs to be examined in context and Christians have to be realistic.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
In terms of eschatology, you have to admit though, that an end time revival is more positive than some of the other positions.
Unfortunately, sound doctrine is not a case of picking and choosing the bits we like.
And once again, I think it's a question of intensity. If there's more good, there's more bad too. I have some sympathy for Roger Forster's "obstetric" view of eschatology (cf Romans 8, pangs of childbirth, etc.). The 'crises' of religious awakening and of evil are like successive contractions. Yes we can expect them to eventually 'give birth' to a new heaven and a new earth and the fulness of the kingdom, but not painlessly or without mess, and the important thing is the entire process.
Yep. Sounds like a fun new thread to me
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Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Britain is a functioning state (more or less well-functioning according to your point of view) that has no soul.
Anglicanism reflects the soul of the English; it is diffident, pragmatic, tolerant, and suspicious of religious enthusiasm. Which is why the English think of religious revival as something that happens somewhere else...
If England has a soul, you can see it in Tolkien's Shire.
Best wishes,
Russ
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
If England has a soul, you can see it in Tolkien's Shire.
No introduction required, I'm sure...
[code]
[ 26. May 2015, 17:47: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Britain is a functioning state (more or less well-functioning according to your point of view) that has no soul.
Anglicanism reflects the soul of the English; it is diffident, pragmatic, tolerant, and suspicious of religious enthusiasm. Which is why the English think of religious revival as something that happens somewhere else...
If England has a soul, you can see it in Tolkien's Shire.
Best wishes,
Russ
I would go along with that. I also think that national character is influenced by landscape, including the natural wildlife of this island. The weather often promotes a stoicism and some of the wildlife (crows, ravens, bats etc) have a kind of eerie edge to them. I think this is reflected in superstition.
The fact that we are surrounded by sea also has an effect along with the fact that we get very few nasty natural disasters here. There is a genuinely funny sense of humour among many of the people.
But this sceptered isle has its dark facets and it is these which I struggle with.
[ 26. May 2015, 17:44: Message edited by: Alyosha ]
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair call, Leo.
Bats are actually quite sweet.
I do think that it is possible to talk of a 'soul' of a landscape or region - Yorkshire, say, or Northumberland, East Anglia ...
I live close to the traditional border between the Midlands and the North - where the Provinces of York and Canterbury - in Anglican terms - meet. I reckon you can tell the difference when you move from one to the other.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
This thread reminds me of the old joke:
One day it began to rain very heavily. It kept raining and a big flood came.
The man climbed up on the roof of his house, and knew that he would be ok. God would protect him.
It kept raining and now the water had reached his waist. A boat came by and a guy in the boat said: “Hey, jump in. We will take you with us”.
“No thanks”, said the man. “I’m a firm believer in God. He will rescue me”. He sent the boat away.
It kept on raining and now the water had reached his neck. Another boat came by and a guy in the boat said: “You look like you could need some help. Jump in and we will take you with us”.
“No”, said the man. “I’m a firm believer in God. He will rescue me. Don’t worry about me”. The boat sailed away.
It still rained and the water now reached his mouth. A helicopter came by and a guy in the helicopter threw down a rope and said: “Hi there my friend. Climb up. We will rescue you”.
“No”, said the man. “I’m a firm believer in God. He will rescue me. I know he will”. The helicopter flew away.
It kept on raining, and finally the man drowned.
When the man died, he went to heaven. When entering Heaven, he had an interview with God."“Where were you. I waited and waited. I was sure you would rescue me, as I have been a firm believer all my life, and have only done good to others. So where were you when I needed you?”
God said “I don’t get it either. I sent you two boats and a helicopter”.
I could be wrong, but it seems the Israelites were also sure their prayers for the Messiah hadn't been answered since instead of a conquering hero there was Jesus, a humble servant. Big events usually end up serving human egos and when we fixate on how we think prayers should be answered we miss God's actual repsonse.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
Where do you think Britain is at when it comes to her spiritual condition?
<snip>
Is it time for another 'Pentecost-style' Christian revival so that the country can heal? Why is the orthodoxy in some circles that there will only be one final great awakening before the end of the world? (Or else that there will be a falling away)?
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
I could be wrong, but it seems the Israelites were also sure their prayers for the Messiah hadn't been answered since instead of a conquering hero there was Jesus, a humble servant. Big events usually end up serving human egos and when we fixate on how we think prayers should be answered we miss God's actual repsonse.
The underlying assumption here seems to be that if Britain has a such a thing as a "soul", that soul is Christian. Which is somewhat problematic for a religiously pluralistic society. If Jews are looking for the 'wrong' messiah, does that imply that they (and other non-Christians) aren't really British? Or have lesser Britishness than their Christian fellow citizens? Are they "foreigners, only foreigners that were not called foreigners" in the words of G.K. Chesterton regarding Jewish Britons?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
I could be wrong, but it seems the Israelites were also sure their prayers for the Messiah hadn't been answered since instead of a conquering hero there was Jesus, a humble servant. Big events usually end up serving human egos and when we fixate on how we think prayers should be answered we miss God's actual repsonse.
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I'm giving this whole thing a lot of thought. In Death of a Salesman Willy Loman is enamoured with the American Dream that a man will come good and become rich if he works hard. It is described later as a 'phony dream' and Willy Loman meets a tragic end.
I am trying to decide if this cause, the cause of a revival in Christianity is a phony dream too.
I do think it is a bit of a cop-out to say that God hasn't said 'no'. What is happening (at least in Europe) is not a revival in anyway I understand the word.
To go back to my simplistic and childlike Christmas metaphor, it is like asking for Christmas and getting halloween and then being told that halloween is Christmas. As much as I like halloween, it can't be called Christmas.
If a whole group of people say that revival is a phony dream then I have to accept that that is a possibility. It is such a hard teaching though and even though I am usually more preoccupied with the needs of survival, I am finding this particular dream hard to give up. Partly because it is entirely linked with meaning to me.
Even Viktor Frankl said that those who survived the camps tended to be those who thought there was something to live for, who had a will to live and a sense of meaning.
By the way, I do work towards my prayers but I understand that sometimes it is not about the truth.
Posts: 162 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2015
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
'Humankind cannot bear too much reality.' TS Eliot
No-one is asking you to give up on 'revival'- simply to modify your 'revivalism'.
God is still God, Christ is still Lord and Saviour, God the Holy Spirit still our Comforter, Counsellor and ever present help.
I am not saying that revival as you envisage it is not a possibility - but it's as easy to make a 'shibboleth' or idol out of it as anything else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alyosha
Shipmate
# 18395
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Humankind cannot bear too much reality.' TS Eliot
No-one is asking you to give up on 'revival'- simply to modify your 'revivalism'.
God is still God, Christ is still Lord and Saviour, God the Holy Spirit still our Comforter, Counsellor and ever present help.
I am not saying that revival as you envisage it is not a possibility - but it's as easy to make a 'shibboleth' or idol out of it as anything else.
I know that you're not, but some people are asking me to give up on it. I'm willing to listen and to adjust my expectations.
Oh sod it. I'm going to carry on hoping for one, whatever people say. If that means I suffer for it, so be it. It is a life or death issue and the needs of the people are greater than my own (isn't that always the way in this machine which we call Christianity? The individual little cog suffers at the expense of the machine?) (as usual).
User error no doubt.
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