Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
Where do you think Britain is at when it comes to her spiritual condition?

<snip>

Is it time for another 'Pentecost-style' Christian revival so that the country can heal? Why is the orthodoxy in some circles that there will only be one final great awakening before the end of the world? (Or else that there will be a falling away)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
I could be wrong, but it seems the Israelites were also sure their prayers for the Messiah hadn't been answered since instead of a conquering hero there was Jesus, a humble servant. Big events usually end up serving human egos and when we fixate on how we think prayers should be answered we miss God's actual repsonse.

---

The underlying assumption here seems to be that if Britain has a such a thing as a "soul", that soul is Christian. Which is somewhat problematic for a religiously pluralistic society. If Jews are looking for the 'wrong' messiah, does that imply that they (and other non-Christians) aren't really British? Or have lesser Britishness than their Christian fellow citizens? Are they "foreigners, only foreigners that were not called foreigners" in the words of G.K. Chesterton regarding Jewish Britons?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

I was just thinking, please God, that there isn't a Christian revival. The Irish vote reminds me that a secular society can get on with improving the lot of women, gays, kids, and others, who were downtrodden under Christian rule. See the Vatican's comment that the Irish vote is a defeat for humanity - I'm reminded of Lawrence's phrase, Look, we have come through!

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:

quote:

---

I was just thinking, please God, that there isn't a Christian revival. The Irish vote reminds me that a secular society can get on with improving the lot of women, gays, kids, and others, who were downtrodden under Christian rule. See the Vatican's comment that the Irish vote is a defeat for humanity - I'm reminded of Lawrence's phrase, Look, we have come through!

---

I don't see how a Christian revival has anything to do with homophobia or prejudice against gays, but however you want to defend your position is just peachy.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The point that's sticking out for me is that you've hinted that God is punishing the country by withholding revival. What for, do you think? Perhaps identifying what you think are our national sins might give some insight into Britain's metaphorical soul.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
I apologise Quetzalcoatl, I can be spiky.

Why does a Christian revival have to include lawmaking? People would petition on all kinds of subjects ranging from pro-life issues through to, I admit, equality laws.

An increase in Christians would give greater political clout to Christians. One would hope that having been in the minority we would have some love in our positions and turn away from all prejudice towards others (including gay people), having experienced it ourselves. Unless you would like to claim that being a Christian gives preferential treatment as the atheists say?

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
I apologise Quetzalcoatl, I can be spiky.

Why does a Christian revival have to include lawmaking? People would petition on all kinds of subjects ranging from pro-life issues through to, I admit, equality laws.

An increase in Christians would give greater political clout to Christians. One would hope that having been in the minority we would have some love in our positions and turn away from all prejudice towards others (including gay people), having experienced it ourselves. Unless you would like to claim that being a Christian gives preferential treatment as the atheists say?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:

quote:

---

I was just thinking, please God, that there isn't a Christian revival. The Irish vote reminds me that a secular society can get on with improving the lot of women, gays, kids, and others, who were downtrodden under Christian rule. See the Vatican's comment that the Irish vote is a defeat for humanity - I'm reminded of Lawrence's phrase, Look, we have come through!

---

I don't see how a Christian revival has anything to do with homophobia or prejudice against gays, but however you want to defend your position is just peachy.

---

You might not, but there's plenty of people (the Vatican for starters, but plenty on the protestant side as well) who think it'd mean returning to "Biblical morality" - which does indeed, in their minds, mean homophobia and marginalisation (at least) of homosexuality. Else why would they react so badly to the Irish vote? Presumably they believe that if there were revival there'd be lots more people voting No.

---

People would also use it for their own agendas and to make money too. But why is it not a force for good? We are talking about a return of people to the source of all love, mercy and true freedom and not an imposition of some new authority. We are not talking about people living under Sharia law (although who knows that that wouldn't be better than this?) We are talking about an increase in freedom, a revival of love.

The collateral damage would be in the loss of trade for some people. Why would a revived Christian community mean that new laws were made? There would be protest and petition, but hopefully there wouldn't be riot. A Christian revival would reduce the chances of rioting.

No-one else is talking about the socio-economic impact of the thing. But it has happened before so it can happen again - no-one makes contingency plans for it. Or is a secret revival starting in hidden miracles?

I asked whether the revivalists needed to repent first. I suggest that we do.

[code ]

[ 27. May 2015, 10:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
I was just thinking, please God, that there isn't a Christian revival. The Irish vote reminds me that a secular society can get on with improving the lot of women, gays, kids, and others, who were downtrodden under Christian rule. See the Vatican's comment that the Irish vote is a defeat for humanity - I'm reminded of Lawrence's phrase, Look, we have come through!

---

I don't see how a Christian revival has anything to do with homophobia or prejudice against gays, but however you want to defend your position is just peachy.

---

You might not, but there's plenty of people (the Vatican for starters, but plenty on the protestant side as well) who think it'd mean returning to "Biblical morality" - which does indeed, in their minds, mean homophobia and marginalisation (at least) of homosexuality. Else why would they react so badly to the Irish vote? Presumably they believe that if there were revival there'd be lots more people voting No.

---

People would also use it for their own agendas and to make money too. But why is it not a force for good? We are talking about a return of people to the source of all love, mercy and true freedom and not an imposition of some new authority. We are not talking about people living under Sharia law (although who knows that that wouldn't be better than this?)

---

In what way would it be? You have a particular part of Sharia law you think would be better than we have?

[code ]

[ 27. May 2015, 10:23: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
"In what way would it be? You have a particular part of Sharia law you think would be better than we have?"

Well, all that stuff about not charging interest on loans seems fairly kind.

But we shall stick with this rancid status quo as the authorities like then shall we?

I am not a Muslim apologist. I have nothing against Muslims. If you want to make the Government's enemy your own enemy that is fine. But our battle should not be against flesh and blood. That it so obviously is shows how we have utterly failed as a society.

A failure which would be changed by a Christian revival.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Medieval Europe had a ban on 'usury' - changing interest on loans. That's why they had Jewish people as money-lenders. It was ok for Jews to do it, but not Christians ...



Go on, have your revival, but don't expect it to magically make all the problems go away. It won't, it doesn't, it can't.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
"I'm trying to envisage what your post revival society might look like, and why you think it'd be like that.

If you think I see the government's enemies as mine, well, I'm really not sure where you're getting that from. My main enemies as I see them are the right-wing tabloids and their continuous demonisation of the unemployed, the working class and immigrants."

Immigrants would be accepted. This ridiculous prejudice against Eastern Europeans would be tackled as individuals embraced a God of acceptance. There would be a greater social movement to help the unemployed, the vulnerable, the immigrants. There would be massive debate, but for a change immigrants would not feel like second-class citizens as the population began to learn and grow and heal.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:

Immigrants would be accepted. This ridiculous prejudice against Eastern Europeans would be tackled as individuals embraced a God of acceptance. There would be a greater social movement to help the unemployed, the vulnerable, the immigrants. There would be massive debate, but for a change immigrants would not feel like second-class citizens as the population began to learn and grow and heal.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
I'm just trying to make things better and at the moment all I'm getting is flak for it.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
I'm just trying to make things better and at the moment all I'm getting is flak for it.

---

To be fair, what you're getting flak for is your lack of clarity.

While I would welcome full churches and repeat services to accommodate everyone, you're not firstly, saying whose revival this is - are we going to be suddenly inundated with Orthodox churches as the the population rediscover God through their timeless liturgy, or will the House of Windsor convert en masse to Roman Catholicism and lead the nation to reject the Protestant Reformation and all its works? Or are we going to all worship using badly-written praise songs with unnecessary key changes?

Secondly, you're not at all clear as to why revival is any particular answer to our current socio-economic woes. Or even what those woes are.

Revival may well be the answer, but what's the question?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
I'm just trying to make things better and at the moment all I'm getting is flak for it.

---

To be fair, what you're getting flak for is your lack of clarity.

While I would welcome full churches and repeat services to accommodate everyone, you're not firstly, saying whose revival this is - are we going to be suddenly inundated with Orthodox churches as the the population rediscover God through their timeless liturgy, or will the House of Windsor convert en masse to Roman Catholicism and lead the nation to reject the Protestant Reformation and all its works? Or are we going to all worship using badly-written praise songs with unnecessary key changes?

Secondly, you're not at all clear as to why revival is any particular answer to our current socio-economic woes. Or even what those woes are.

Revival may well be the answer, but what's the question?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
There are no social woes. All is fine. All is peachy. No-one is in need. We can all go back to sleep.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
There are no social woes. All is fine. All is peachy. No-one is in need. We can all go back to sleep.

---

Which is not what I said. Or came anywhere near close to saying.

I'm known on these boards as being on the (very) radical left - hence the appellation "Deepest Red" under my avatar. So if you think that I believe there are no social woes that need fixing... dude, no. I'm not that guy.

What I'm trying to identify is (a) what social woes are you trying to fix and (b) why a Christian revival will fix them. You're not expressing yourself with sufficient clarity to allow the other posters to engage with the specifics, and I'm inviting you to give it a go.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:
You can have a go at me for my lack of clarity, but I would have thought that a revival should be inclusive and promote unity.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Alyosha: of course it's not wrong to dream and hope and pray. It would probably be a good thing if more Christians did so, and perhaps looked at life a bit less cynically.

But I think our major argument with your thesis is that it is just too simplistic: God sends a mighty revival, lots of people are truly converted to Christ, the churches fill, Christian values come to the fore and people become nicer, and society is changed. Most of us would want to add some caveats to that.

For instance: revival does not take place in a religious and sociological vacuum, but in a context. Certain predisposing factors have to be present - for instance, a cohesive sense of community, a certain pre-existent knowledge of the Christian faith, a level of anxiety within society and so on. These themselves will not, of themselves, bring revival; but they create the conditions in which revival can take place.

None of this is to undermine the sovereignty and power of the Holy Spirit; but we must recognise that revival is as much a human construct as a divine one. It is my believe that 1st century Jerusalem and its hinterland were a particularly fertile in which God could work. That might well be true of rapidly-industrialising 18th century Britain, too.

- Past history leads us to say that "mass conversion" does not automatically lead to social improvement. Yes, it may lead to changes in individual behaviours, but it can take a long time to seep down through the general fabric of society and may still leave huge "blind spots".

Of course enthusiastic Christians have been behind many great social reforms (such as the achievements of the "Clapham Sect" and even the modern missionary movement). But whether these should be directly linked to - say - the 1759 Revival or the Methodist Movement is at least debatable.

- I think that many on the Ship are well aware that we live in a multicultural society, the like of which has only existed for perhaps the last 70 years or so. This means that the ideas of a "Christian country" and "shared religious values" seem much less relevant than they did in the past. I know that many sincere Christians would love to see Muslims and others coming to faith in Christ (though others would see this aim as unacceptable and even patronising). Even disregarding this, is it possible for Christian revival to permeate the whole of our nation's diffuse and diverse culture? I doubt it.

- Finally, I think that quite a few people on these boards have, in younger days, ben members of "enthusiastic" Christian groups which seemed to continually proclaim revival as being "just around the corner". You can understand that, after hearing that for 10 or 20 years, expectations become a bit dulled and hopes diminish.

Sadly too many of us have been let down too often, not by God but by his self-styled prophets, to get too excited by the sort of thing you are saying. You will think that that is sad, and you may well be right. But it's the truth. And it has led us to worship in different styles and to read the Scriptures in different ways.

Does that help to explain at all? Or does it simply muddy the waters further?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Racism, sexism etc are institutionalised and structural. They cannot be defeated by vague notions of love. Sometimes violence is needed.

For myself and other leftist Christians, rioting and oppressed groups fighting back (eg Ferguson demonstrations) are part of a Christian revival.

What you describe sounds nice, it just also sounds totally removed from reality.

Also, we think everything is terrible now because 24/7 media makes us aware of it. In reality we're living in one of the most peaceful and equal times in history - we're hyperaware of war for instance, but actually there's much less war than in previous centuries when as far as Britain was concerned it happened somewhere else. I certainly don't think a country with employment rights, an NHS (well at the moment anyway), protection in law for women and minorities etc needs sharia law in order to improve! Don't get me wrong, sharia is often misunderstood and was actually a liberalisation of contemporary laws when it was introduced, but it's not exactly applicable to 21st century Britain.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
And a lot of those social improvements are a product of a secular society, aren't they? And secular does not equal atheist.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Racism, sexism etc are institutionalised and structural. They cannot be defeated by vague notions of love. Sometimes violence is needed.

For myself and other leftist Christians, rioting and oppressed groups fighting back (eg Ferguson demonstrations) are part of a Christian revival.

What you describe sounds nice, it just also sounds totally removed from reality.

Also, we think everything is terrible now because 24/7 media makes us aware of it. In reality we're living in one of the most peaceful and equal times in history - we're hyperaware of war for instance, but actually there's much less war than in previous centuries when as far as Britain was concerned it happened somewhere else. I certainly don't think a country with employment rights, an NHS (well at the moment anyway), protection in law for women and minorities etc needs sharia law in order to improve! Don't get me wrong, sharia is often misunderstood and was actually a liberalisation of contemporary laws when it was introduced, but it's not exactly applicable to 21st century Britain.

---

I don't know Pomona, I just think that as soon as you take up arms against the oppressor, you have entirely lost the battle. Protest is important and even maybe direct action as a last resort, but I'm not violent and I like those vague notions of love. I do see love as a more powerful force than that really, but maybe the definition has been watered down.

Use the pen over the sword.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ricardus:
Question: is it possible to believe in revivals and not be a Calvinist (on the free will issue I mean)?

If God directly intervenes to cause revival, that suggests he directly intervenes to cause people to come to faith, which seems to me effectively equivalent to Unconditional Election.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alyosha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Racism, sexism etc are institutionalised and structural. They cannot be defeated by vague notions of love. Sometimes violence is needed.

For myself and other leftist Christians, rioting and oppressed groups fighting back (eg Ferguson demonstrations) are part of a Christian revival.

What you describe sounds nice, it just also sounds totally removed from reality.

Also, we think everything is terrible now because 24/7 media makes us aware of it. In reality we're living in one of the most peaceful and equal times in history - we're hyperaware of war for instance, but actually there's much less war than in previous centuries when as far as Britain was concerned it happened somewhere else. I certainly don't think a country with employment rights, an NHS (well at the moment anyway), protection in law for women and minorities etc needs sharia law in order to improve! Don't get me wrong, sharia is often misunderstood and was actually a liberalisation of contemporary laws when it was introduced, but it's not exactly applicable to 21st century Britain.

---

I don't know Pomona, I just think that as soon as you take up arms against the oppressor, you have entirely lost the battle. Protest is important and even maybe direct action as a last resort, but I'm not violent and I like those vague notions of love. I do see love as a more powerful force than that really, but maybe the definition has been watered down.

Use the pen over the sword.

---

But what exactly do those vague notions of love do? I am not sure how much they help when people are being killed for being black.

What I am talking about IS direct action, and it is just part of a wider fight for liberation. Oppressed groups didn't gain freedoms by sitting and waiting for some vague New Agey cloud of peace and love to descend, they took things into their own hands. Which is what I've already said - I dislike the phrase 'God helps those who help themselves' generally but I think regarding revival it is applicable.

I notice you haven't responded to my comment that we're living in an extremely peaceful time compared to previous centuries.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pomona:
Well yes but my point is that a better society takes work. Hoping for revival is not work. I'm not saying that you don't do anything, but expecting a revival to just happen and make everything great immediately is incredibly unrealistic, and actually not what has happened with historical revivals.

I don't see why being expected to engage in robust debate is a strange initiation Why is it strange to have to defend your arguments?

---