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Source: (consider it) Thread: The last of the last days?
Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I do have another gem for folk to trample on though - after Christ had the encounter with the devil in the wilderness the only way the disciples would have been able to know what had happened would be if Christ sat them down and told them the story. Two characters, one wilderness, no-one else to record the incident.

Same with the trip to Hades in between death and resurrection?

What has that got to do with the last of the last days?

[ 26. May 2015, 18:54: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Jack o' the Green
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Possibly. There are a few accounts of events which may have come from Christ. The Jewish Trial may have got into the tradition that way. Personally, I've always preferred Mark's version of the Temptation. Definitely a case of 'less is more'. The narrative (I think) stimulates the imagination with the things it doesn't mention or leaves ambiguous.
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Alyosha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Alyosha:
I do have another gem for folk to trample on though - after Christ had the encounter with the devil in the wilderness the only way the disciples would have been able to know what had happened would be if Christ sat them down and told them the story. Two characters, one wilderness, no-one else to record the incident.

Same with the trip to Hades in between death and resurrection?

What has that got to do with the last of the last days?
Not that much, but it is a really good meditation to imagine Christ sitting around a camp fire under the stars and telling the disciples stories about things such as this. Imagine how comforting and secure that would feel. No one listening to such stories would want to be anywhere else in the world.

Am I supposed to keep on topic? I am new here. Do people get disciplined for straying off topic? I was talking about Christ who will also come at the end of the world, if that's a link?

[ 26. May 2015, 19:18: Message edited by: Alyosha ]

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Gwai
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Hi Alyosha,

Yes, we do try to stay on topic. I might suggest checking out the guidelines at the top of each board. They are useful for giving a feel of that particular board.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Alyosha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Hi Alyosha,

Yes, we do try to stay on topic. I might suggest checking out the guidelines at the top of each board. They are useful for giving a feel of that particular board.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

Thanks. No problem.
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Gamaliel
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I suppose it is relevant to some extent insofar as it tells us something about your approach to the scriptures ... if we couldn't deduce it already given your Pentecostal background ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
(If I am completely honest, this is an area of Christian faith where I think we need to read it as purely symbolical rather than literal. Given all we know now about the universe and its age and processes, I think it is scarcely credible to keep hold of a belief that it is all going to end suddenly one day. But I accept that this places me at the end of the spectrum in these matters.)

You parenthesized this, but I want to highlight it. I do not think it puts you anywhere but the general mainstream. Most sensible people think this; the Ship is likely not representative.

There are only end times for each of us, and responsibility to live for others, and as if we might be gone tomorrow.

(For the record, some of us thought Ronald Reagan was the antichrist, when we didn't think it was a televangelist or two.)

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Kaplan Corday
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I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.

It makes perfect sense to me that a figure of such cosmic cunning would disguise himself as a children's animal character.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I used to attend some meetings where the chairperson anounted 'The date of our next meeting, if the Lord hasn't returned by then, is.....'

I always thought her to be naive, if not mad.

There used to be a custom in the Brethren, and possibly elsewhere, to follow announcements about future plans and events with "DV", which stood for Deo Volente.
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Piglet
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Not just the Brethren: an elderly Presbyterian gentleman of our acquaintance (now deceased) used to use the phrase "See you tomorrow, D.V." as his farewell.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.

It makes perfect sense to me that a figure of such cosmic cunning would disguise himself as a children's animal character.

That gives a whole new meaning to BB's catchphrase "Boom! Boom!"

--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Alyosha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suppose it is relevant to some extent insofar as it tells us something about your approach to the scriptures ... if we couldn't deduce it already given your Pentecostal background ...

Morning. But not exactly (and, if I may say so, that it a little bit of a stereotype of Pentecostals because there are a large spectrum of approaches to scripture beyond a 'devil-heavy literalism').

I admit to taking the gospels literally and as a result I take Christ's end time prophecies literally. I see a lot of the OT as allegory and Daniel and Revelation as symbolism, a kind of mix of pattern and reality.

I take the thousand years of peace as allegory or pattern rather than literal.

I am, I admit, persuaded that the devil is real but this is partly based on experience rather than only scripture (I find it intellectually insulting to say that there is no God or devil).

I also am persuaded that a post-tribulation 'rapture' is possible although I tend to see the rapture and the last judgement as a climax to history and in story terms. I'm persuaded that the danger is in the Church not preparing for a possible tribulation to come.

A good story to read which has parallels I think with the rapture is the African-American folktale 'The People Could Fly'. In this story, the oppressed black workers escape their tormentors at a crucial point by simply flying away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0C151dnDqg
video

[ 27. May 2015, 06:13: Message edited by: Alyosha ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There used to be a custom in the Brethren, and possibly elsewhere, to follow announcements about future plans and events with "DV", which stood for Deo Volente.

Or, "if the Lord should tarry" ...
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Gamaliel
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Fair enough, Alyosha.

I am quite conservative theologically too and do take the Gospel accounts literally - with some provisos for literary and theological intent.

I do believe in the Devil too - but not in the popular 'medieval' sense - more in a C S Lewis kind of way.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
(For the record, some of us thought Ronald Reagan was the antichrist, when we didn't think it was a televangelist or two.)

I bumped into a web page a few years ago that went into a detailed explanation of why the writer thought the beast is the USA. The flip of what I'm used to seeing detailed explanation why it's EU.

Quite well done. USA is the Roman Empire reborn, Roman Eagle symbol, World empire ambitions incorporating many different peoples under one government, wish I could find the page but I've never seen it again in spite of looking.

Not that I think anyone knows. Seems to me a lot of future-telling prophecy (what little there is) is understood after the fact rather than giving clear specifics ahead of time.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.


George Bush, more like.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Martin60
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In 45 years I have gone from cultic fundamentalist obsessed with 'prophecy' to ... raving postmodern liberal. Therefore the last days were fulfilled in Jesus' generation. The Book of Revelation is therefore contemporary apocalyptic literature from the time of Nero. I'm still a closet fundie, scratch me and I bleed it, but I don't believe it, I don't have to. I believe in the mystery pervading the divine man (does that make Him the human God?) Jesus, the last prophet and his apostles. I believe that all of the prophets from the mythic Moses were inspired by the Holy Spirit, i.e. that He was with them where they were, which doesn't mean that anything they did, like the Law of Moses, was validated by that.

Under the skin I accept the possibility of duality and more in the prophecies that were ALL fulfilled in Christ, according to Him. Which are easy for the modern mind NOT to see.

As a species, we're halfway. Probably a bit over the hill. So we've got a hundred thousand years to go. Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere. We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down. We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice. Within this millennium we will make contact.

That will be the end of the beginning of the last days.

In the mean time, let's be kind. Forgiving. Merciful. Generous. Regardless.

[ 27. May 2015, 14:43: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

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Alyosha
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
In 45 years I have gone from cultic fundamentalist obsessed with 'prophecy' to ... raving postmodern liberal. Therefore the last days were fulfilled in Jesus' generation. The Book of Revelation is therefore contemporary apocalyptic literature from the time of Nero. I'm still a closet fundie, scratch me and I bleed it, but I don't believe it, I don't have to. I believe in the mystery pervading the divine man (does that make Him the human God?) Jesus, the last prophet and his apostles. I believe that all of the prophets from the mythic Moses were inspired by the Holy Spirit, i.e. that He was with them where they were, which doesn't mean that anything they did, like the Law of Moses, was validated by that.

Under the skin I accept the possibility of duality and more in the prophecies that were ALL fulfilled in Christ, according to Him. Which are easy for the modern mind NOT to see.

As a species, we're halfway. Probably a bit over the hill. So we've got a hundred thousand years to go. Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere. We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down. We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice. Within this millennium we will make contact.

That will be the end of the beginning of the last days.

In the mean time, let's be kind. Forgiving. Merciful. Generous. Regardless.

If this causes you to come to the conclusion which you made in your last sentence Martin then I think you're a lot closer to God than most pre, mid and post-trib premillenialists put together.
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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Under the skin I accept the possibility of duality and more in the prophecies that were ALL fulfilled in Christ, according to Him. Which are easy for the modern mind NOT to see.

As a species, we're halfway. Probably a bit over the hill. So we've got a hundred thousand years to go. Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere. We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down. We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice. Within this millennium we will make contact.

I suspect a lot of how any specific future-prophecy works out is partly up to us. God is headed a certain direction - bringing all creation to know and enjoy God - but how we get there is somewhat up for grabs.

Take as an easy to discuss (whether or not believed) example the "timetable" approach to Revelation. Some see in it a nuclear war. We've had one nuclear war; "prophecy" fulfilled. We could have another, fulfilling it twice and doing almost unsurvivable damage to the planet and ourselves. Up to us whether there's a second nuclear war or not. We are going to get to God's end goal for us, the easy way or the hard way.

I actually don't think there's a lot of specific event future prophecy in the Bible. More of who God is and what God wants. But I have trouble seeing Martin60's future. At the rate our mega corporations are polluting the planet's soils and waters and now it's deep water reservoirs, war for food and water seems more likely than sanity and justice.

Global warming suggests our grandchildren will have a very different life than we had, in not good ways.

I once read a statement that the Bible shows two pictures - one is everything gets better and better until the glorious end and new creation, the other is everything gets worse and worse until Jesus comes to rescue the remnant who would otherwise perish. He thought both happen at once, and sometimes I think I see that - life spans increasing but soil destruction threatening widespread famine. Medicine doing wonders but more and more people getting lifestyle diseases at ever earlier ages.

The future is in our hands, but the rulers look to short term profit regardless of negative long term effects on the health of the planet and the many species that live on it.

Pick a prophecy, pick an interpretation, you are potentially right, but it doesn't have to be that way. *We* can make the other interpretation turn out to be the right one. Will we choose to pursue Martin60's vision of a far better future in this world? Or continue cutthroat competition for momentary benefit with ever bigger weapons? Or an odd mixture of both?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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In our usual self-centred human way, we see apocalypse in every generation. History doesn't exactly repeat itself, but it rhymes. I see the rhyming just now as the ISIL/ISIS/IS bunch look like a mating between the North Vietnamese and Khymer Rouge. And the hands-up don't shoot protests rhyme with the race protests from the same era. The "man" we shouldn't trust has an MBA this time, has female representation, and is corporate instead of government. I do enjoy the same mix of optimism and despair because out of it we might see some positive change again. Waiting for the soundtrack and more to laugh at with the current versicle.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Pomona
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I'll admit that eschatology is not an area of theology I have a lot of experience in. I can't quite see the point in spending so much time debating about the Rapture, whether you're pre-trib or whatever. Surely it can't be much of a help to evangelism?

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.


George Bush, more like.
I already did that one.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Martin60
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Alyosha. I've just lost - thank GOD! - some narrow narratives. It doesn't make me a better person. I'm acutely aware of how helpless I am.

Belle Ringer. You are far more balanced than I. I truly believe that no one, from God on down, has the faintest idea how this ends. Only how it transcends.

--------------------
Love wins

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I discovered the identity of the anti-Christ many years ago, in an article which demonstrated by numerological analysis of the letters in his name that it was Basil Brush.

It makes perfect sense to me that a figure of such cosmic cunning would disguise himself as a children's animal character.

That gives a whole new meaning to BB's catchphrase "Boom! Boom!"
I rest my case.
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Laurelin
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Excellent post, Belle Ringer. [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I can't quite see the point in spending so much time debating about the Rapture, whether you're pre-trib or whatever. Surely it can't be much of a help to evangelism?

My feelings about it exactly. [Big Grin] [Cool]

I don't believe in the Rapture as such. If I had to classify myself as anything, I guess I'd say I'm an amillenialist who thinks things could get pretty dark before the End. Or possibly not ... [Help]

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I truly believe that no one, from God on down, has the faintest idea how this ends. Only how it transcends.

I'm not a fan of this post-modern theology that 'God doesn't know either'. We, on the other hand, really have no clue.

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere.

Must we? Why?

quote:
We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down.
Possibly. I think the first two possibilities, which I think are plausible, will contain their own difficulties and challenges.

quote:
We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice.
Now this I find wildly optimistic. People were thinking this at the end of the 19th century. [Frown]

The human race has an addiction to violence, and a tendency to divide against itself, and I can't see these tendencies ever being entirely erased until human history ceases. And surely some of these instincts are hardwired into us from a purely evolutionary POV. In short, I don't believe they will entirely disappear until Christ comes again.

quote:
Within this millennium we will make contact.
That's a lot of certainty. [Biased]

quote:
In the mean time, let's be kind. Forgiving. Merciful. Generous. Regardless.
No argument with that. [Smile]

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
Excellent post, Belle Ringer. [Smile]

Firsted.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I can't quite see the point in spending so much time debating about the Rapture, whether you're pre-trib or whatever. Surely it can't be much of a help to evangelism?

My feelings about it exactly. [Big Grin] [Cool]

I don't believe in the Rapture as such. If I had to classify myself as anything, I guess I'd say I'm an amillenialist who thinks things could get pretty dark before the End. Or possibly not ... [Help]

And that end will be when?

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I truly believe that no one, from God on down, has the faintest idea how this ends. Only how it transcends.

I'm not a fan of this post-modern theology that 'God doesn't know either'. We, on the other hand, really have no clue.
So what does He know that we don't?

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Within this century we MUST detect life and therefore intelligence elsewhere.

Must we? Why?
Because IF it's there at all, we'll have the technology to detect it.

quote:
quote:
We'll begin to extend lifetime, augment intelligence, slow down.
Possibly. I think the first two possibilities, which I think are plausible, will contain their own difficulties and challenges.
They certainly will.

quote:
quote:
We'll become better at conflict resolution, sanity, justice.
Now this I find wildly optimistic. People were thinking this at the end of the 19th century. [Frown]
They were right. We just had to go through some stuff they hadn't envisaged first. So will we.


quote:

The human race has an addiction to violence, and a tendency to divide against itself, and I can't see these tendencies ever being entirely erased until human history ceases. And surely some of these instincts are hardwired into us from a purely evolutionary POV. In short, I don't believe they will entirely disappear until Christ comes again.

Absolutely.

quote:
quote:
Within this millennium we will make contact.
That's a lot of certainty. [Biased]
Predicated on finding life this century - certain if it's there, it's certain.

quote:
quote:
In the mean time, let's be kind. Forgiving. Merciful. Generous. Regardless.
No argument with that. [Smile]
Ah, how do you feel about IS? [Biased]

--------------------
Love wins

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what does He know that we don't?

He knows what he intends to do in response to our free choices.

[ 28. May 2015, 14:36: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Laurelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And that end will be when?

When Christ returns. To quote CS Lewis, when the author of the play steps onto the stage, the play is over.

quote:
So what does He know that we don't?
The day of my death, for one thing. [Cool]

quote:
They were right. We just had to go through some stuff they hadn't envisaged first. So will we.
I seriously don't think that particular dilemma will ever end.

quote:
Ah, how do you feel about IS? [Biased]
The same as I do about any organisation which carries out violence, torture, persecution and genocide.

--------------------
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what does He know that we don't?

He knows what he intends to do in response to our free choices.
When?

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what does He know that we don't?

He knows what he intends to do in response to our free choices.
When?
You'll have to ask him that.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And that end will be when?

When Christ returns. To quote CS Lewis, when the author of the play steps onto the stage, the play is over.
No sign then.

quote:
quote:
So what does He know that we don't?
The day of my death, for one thing. [Cool]
Where does He say that?

quote:
quote:
They were right. We just had to go through some stuff they hadn't envisaged first. So will we.
I seriously don't think that particular dilemma will ever end.
Me too.

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quote:
Ah, how do you feel about IS? [Biased]
The same as I do about any organisation which carries out violence, torture, persecution and genocide.

The same as me I'm sure. What should we do about them? A Christian friend in my small group says they have committed the unforgivable sin.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what does He know that we don't?

He knows what he intends to do in response to our free choices.
When?
You'll have to ask him that.
Well we've been exercising our 'free' choices for 200,000 years and apart from His pivotal intervention 2,000 years ago, He doesn't look like He's going to do anything apart from through us for another 2 or 200. It looks like we are dragging it out. Keeping Him waiting.

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Love wins

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Laurelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
No sign then.

No sign then of what? [Confused] You do like to be cryptic!

I'm an agnostic about when and how but I am not an agnostic when it comes to Christ literally coming back and setting everything to rights.

quote:
Where does He say that?
Psalm 139: 16: "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

I find that comforting.

quote:
The same as me I'm sure. What should we do about them?
I have prayed for a change of heart in IS. I also want them stopped, but . Our past meddling in the Middle East has not rendered great results.

quote:
A Christian friend in my small group says they have committed the unforgivable sin.
Which is what? Nobody knows what that is. 'The sin against the Holy Ghost' - I have no clue either.

It's up to God how He eventually judges people who are happy to rape and torture and kill and to inflict suffering on millions. I can't comment on the state of their souls because I don't have the capacity to do so. I do wonder if some human beings go beyond the point of no return, if their consciences are so seared that they lose their humanity and eventually their souls. But it's a big question, and I have no easy answers.

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Well we've been exercising our 'free' choices for 200,000 years and apart from His pivotal intervention 2,000 years ago, He doesn't look like He's going to do anything apart from through us for another 2 or 200. It looks like we are dragging it out. Keeping Him waiting.

A few of us think that the last of the last days have come and gone already as a result of the second of His pivotal interventions some 250 years ago. Not quite what people were expecting, I know, and not as dramatic as the first time, but all the easier to believe in because of it.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
A few of us think that the last of the last days have come and gone already as a result of the second of His pivotal interventions some 250 years ago. Not quite what people were expecting, I know, and not as dramatic as the first time, but all the easier to believe in because of it.

I'm lost. What are you talking about? The establishment of the first chocolate factory in the US?

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W Hyatt
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The first chocolate factory in the US was a noteworthy event, but I was referring to Emanuel Swedenborg* and his theological works in which he introduced a new way to interpret the Bible.

* See also my signature line for more links:

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Martin60
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Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Messiah,” and will deceive many.

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W Hyatt
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Yes, it would be enough to discredit Swedenborg if he had said he was the Messiah, but he made no such claim. His claim was only to be in a position much like Paul's, except that he did nothing more than write.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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itsarumdo
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Messiah,” and will deceive many.

Yes - well, for sure that is common - including (but not constrained to) "messiahs" of the secular movement.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Martin60
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All in the locus of grandiose claims about Swedenborg being the focus of divine intervention, the most significant in 2000 years, 250 years ago.

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itsarumdo
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
All in the locus of grandiose claims about Swedenborg being the focus of divine intervention, the most significant in 2000 years, 250 years ago.

I think God sends us "help" all the time - in many ways, from people who just give good examples, to authors, or whatever. Some people are just "influenced" by God, and some are literally sent with a specific purpose. If you want an example of the first, I think Tolkien is a good example. Maybe Schweitzer could be an example of the second. I agree that Swedenborg was probably not some significant marker in history in a biblical sense. However, that's not to despise either the man or his legacy. He was probably one of the greatest polymath scientists ever, comparable to Leonardo, who spent the last half of his life praying and writing. And his influence places him like the acorn that has grown into a vast and fertile tree. His writings have massively influenced non-orthodox spirituality right up to this day.

It didn't absolutely start at Swedenborg, however. He was in turn influenced by Jacob Boehme - who, rather like Mohammed and many of the biblical Prophets was a relatively illiterate and uneducated man until he received and wrote down some rather sophisticated and complex ideas on the relationship between God and Man.

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Martin60
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I can think of the beginnings of a hundred, a thousand infinitely more relevant: Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Lincoln, Martin Luther King, John and Robert Kennedy, Mother Theresa, Harper Lee, Joe Hill (a greater Swede), Raoul Wallenberg (and another yet), Orwell, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Oscar Schindler, Wilfred Owen, Henri Nouwen ...

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Trudy Scrumptious

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The history of movements that did feel "convicted" to "press that button" is informative (one of many examples; another one).

Not sure what will become of Camping's followers but us descendants of Millerites have done all right for ourselves since then. The trick is not to get suckered into proclaiming successive Jesus-must-arrive-by dates, when the first one doesn't work out.

That said, I am a fourth-generation Seventh-day Adventist, and each of the preceding three generations went to church as young people being told (and in most cases, I imagine, believing sincerely) that Jesus would come back before they reached adulthood. Still this sincerely-held belief did not stop any of them from going to college, getting married, having children, starting businesses, and generally doing all the things people do when they expect the world to last forever. I think most people compartmentalize, to a large extent -- much the same way I assume people who believe in hell must manage to do, to avoid getting through each day without being tormented by images of friends and co-workers being roasted alive for all eternity.

In other words, I don't think for most people their theology, no matter how deeply held, has that big an impact on their daily lives. Or rather, it does have some impact, but it's adjusted in some way to take into account the necessity of living a relatively normal life.

[ 29. May 2015, 10:12: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]

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Books and things.

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itsarumdo
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I can think of the beginnings of a hundred, a thousand infinitely more relevant: Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Lincoln, Martin Luther King, John and Robert Kennedy, Mother Theresa, Harper Lee, Joe Hill (a greater Swede), Raoul Wallenberg (and another yet), Orwell, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Oscar Schindler, Wilfred Owen, Henri Nouwen ...

yes - it's not that difficult to realise in retrospect

how many people get it *enough* when they are alive?

[ 29. May 2015, 10:46: Message edited by: itsarumdo ]

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Robert Armin

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I have a friend (British) who is convinced that Obama is the anti-Christ. Her reason: he's "anti-Israel". Her only doubt: "it's too obvious, and the anti-Christ is supposed to be a surprise".

Obama and not W? [Confused]

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Gamaliel
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Hmmm ... not a view I've encountered here in the UK - but then, I suspect certain types of fundamentalist evangelical here might be as prone to this sort of thing as their cousins in the US.

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Alyosha
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I think some people have identified Prince Charles as a candidate for Antichristmanship, but it's not very likely.

It would be just our luck to be born in the last of the last days though (as if we don't have enough to deal with). In some ways it does feel like the last of the last days to me, but that may be a subjective view. I'm not pressing that button yet.

I think the BBC technology correspondent taking a chip in his hand was a little disturbing, but most people seemed to be fine with it. So I have to learn that the things which disturb me don't disturb others.

But the concessions and compromises that those of us who embrace technology make are outstanding. Years ago I would never have allowed some of my data to be available in cloud services for example. Or I would be shocked by bio-data being taken in schools. Now, it is a matter of even questioning whether the Snoopers Charter really is that bad.

Maybe a chip in the head or the hand happens the same way? You just end up telling yourself that all that last days claptrap is allegory and tell the people inserting the chip that you really do hate that Biblical literalism and you have nothing to hide therefore nothing to fear.

[ 31. May 2015, 11:42: Message edited by: Alyosha ]

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Gamaliel
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All this reminds me of a story I saw a vicar tell on the radio once ...

He used to visit a little old lady in his parish and was always taken by her gruff, no nonsense understatement.

One day, when he visited she told him that the Jehovah's Witnesses had been round in the week and left some literature. She hadn't known what to make of it and asked the vicar if he knew more about them.

The vicar explained that they were an extreme sect who predicted the imminent end of the world.

The old lady rolled her eyes, 'That's all we need ...!'

[Big Grin]

You can imagine, can't you? 'That bloomin' bus to Borchester never do come on time ... and that grocer's never got cauliflower in when you need it ... as for that patch of grass at the back of Rose Cottage, why, it's in a shocking state - and you'd think they'd have time to mow it proper an' all ... and as for all them stars tumbling out of heaven and they beasts with stings in their tails and all them 'eads ... why, that's all we need ...'

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Alyosha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All this reminds me of a story I saw a vicar tell on the radio once ...

He used to visit a little old lady in his parish and was always taken by her gruff, no nonsense understatement.

One day, when he visited she told him that the Jehovah's Witnesses had been round in the week and left some literature. She hadn't known what to make of it and asked the vicar if he knew more about them.

The vicar explained that they were an extreme sect who predicted the imminent end of the world.

The old lady rolled her eyes, 'That's all we need ...!'

[Big Grin]

You can imagine, can't you? 'That bloomin' bus to Borchester never do come on time ... and that grocer's never got cauliflower in when you need it ... as for that patch of grass at the back of Rose Cottage, why, it's in a shocking state - and you'd think they'd have time to mow it proper an' all ... and as for all them stars tumbling out of heaven and they beasts with stings in their tails and all them 'eads ... why, that's all we need ...'

I think you have just described my internal monologue. How did you get inside my head? Hmmm?
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balaam

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The Archers go apocalyptic:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

You can imagine, can't you? 'That bloomin' bus to Borchester never do come on time ... and that grocer's never got cauliflower in when you need it ... as for that patch of grass at the back of Rose Cottage, why, it's in a shocking state - and you'd think they'd have time to mow it proper an' all ... and as for all them stars tumbling out of heaven and they beasts with stings in their tails and all them 'eads ... why, that's all we need ...'

(Cue music, Dum, di-dum di-dum di-dum) Thanks for that Gamaliel. [Big Grin]

Edit for coding

[again]

[ 31. May 2015, 12:24: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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