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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Where is everyone....?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No I'm not, quetzelcoatl. Certainly any place may be a place where God is encountered- people have, I believe, encountered God in extermination camps- but I am saying that some places can be made deliberately conducive to an encounter with God. That is what organised worship is, or should be, about (and places that have been regularly prayed in over time do have a particular ambience- "A serious house on serious ground" as i think Larkin puts it- I'm quoting from memory).
Deliberately conducive? Well, I will bite my lip.
Here is Addison:
I AM always very well pleased with a country Sunday; and think, if keeping holy the seventh day were only a human institution, it would be the best method that could have been thought of for the polishing and civilizing of mankind. It is certain the country-people would soon degenerate into a kind of savages and barbarians, were there not such frequent returns of a stated time, in which the whole village meet together with their best faces, and in their cleanliest habits, to converse with one another upon indifferent subjects, hear their duties explained to them, and join together in adoration of the Supreme Being. Sunday clears away the rust of the whole week, not only as it refreshes in their minds the notions of religion, but as it puts both the sexes upon appearing in their most agreeable forms, and exerting all such qualities as are apt to give them a figure in the eye of the village. ('Sir Roger at church', Spectator, 1711).
Beautifully written, of course, but I wonder if you can see the rot setting in here, in terms of your encounter with God.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Well now, those essays were affectionately humorous imitations of the views of a particular kind of country squire, weren't they?
[ 01. June 2015, 15:53: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
More like an excuse to wear their Sunday Best.
Clothes are far cleaner and easier to wear these days. Looking smart-ish is no big deal.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There was a time when church was the essential venue for social connection. The people you met at work (if you worked) were one group, and your neighbors were another. But there were very few other ways to meet people. (You can see this in period fiction. What did the teenaged Laura Ingalls Wilder do when she wanted to meet people? She went to the church social.)
Nowadays if you are a young person overtly or covertly looking for connection you have many, many other avenues, many that don't even involve getting up out of bed. You can stay in your room and swipe right.
And that is why I believe my kids do not go to church. They have other social outlets.
Yes. Similarly, church was also often the primary place to make useful economic or political connections, whereas again, today, there are better ways to do that.
Given that the purpose and intent of the Church is none of those things, it may be that the decline in attendance is not so much a negative as simply a refining of purpose and intent. Those who remain are those who are clear on the purpose and eager to be a part of that. Doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to focus on attracting those on the fringes, but does suggest IMHO that we shouldn't do so in the same ways we did in the past (drumming up another social activity or opportunity to make business contacts)-- partly because it doesn't work, but more so because it only distracts from our core purpose.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I would add- missed the edit window- that I don't think that encountering God and encountering your neighbours displayed at their best are incompatible with each other in fact, quite the reverse, especially if we understand 'displayed at their best' in its broadest sense.
Francis Spufford describes the average CofE Sunday morning congregation after the service- rather different from Sir Roger de Coverley's villagers, it's true- as a rather various group of people balancing their coffee cups and biscuits and making conversation about anything at all except religion but crucially and perhaps without articulating it trying to see each other as God sees them. IME that can be very true.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Well now, those essays were affectionately humorous imitations of the views of a particular kind of country squire, weren't they?
Yes, a beautiful blend of affection and comedy. But doesn't it say something about the English religion? We could go to Austen as well, but maybe it's unfair to cite satire.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I would add- missed the edit window- that I don't think that encountering God and encountering your neighbours displayed at their best are incompatible with each other in fact, quite the reverse, especially if we understand 'displayed at their best' in its broadest sense.
Francis Spufford describes the average CofE Sunday morning congregation after the service- rather different from Sir Roger de Coverley's villagers, it's true- as a rather various group of people balancing their coffee cups and biscuits and making conversation about anything at all except religion but crucially and perhaps without articulating it trying to see each other as God sees them. IME that can be very true.
Well, one of my old tutors used to say that the English were immensely intimate people, hence the cup of tea as a social lubricant, now coffee, maybe. I agree with that. There you are, you have converted me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Of course, what makes that Addison passage that you shared with us so effective is that it does contain a deal of truth. But in a fallen world, that's not doing badly. And I am sure that, even without the lubrication of coffee, you and I would have no difficulty trying to see each other as God sees us. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Of course, what makes that Addison passage that you shared with us so effective is that it does contain a deal of truth. But in a fallen world, that's not doing badly. And I am sure that, even without the lubrication of coffee, you and I would have no difficulty trying to see each other as God sees us.
Well, old Joe had this amazing facility for balancing between accuracy and exaggeration, with a kind of delicate surface tension over it all. It's incredibly hard to copy, for sure.
I just wonder if it exposes something rotten in English religion, see also Mr Collins in Emma, and most of the Austen vicars, except in Mansfield Park, when supposedly Jane had been bitten by the evangelical bug, and the critics of vicars are themselves satirized as modern vandals, (Crawfords). But it's not news that 18th century religion was partly fashion.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
It is also worth bearing in mind with Austen that her father and two of her brothers were vicars and she often wrote to amuse her family.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
It is also worth bearing in mind with Austen that her father and two of her brothers were vicars and she often wrote to amuse her family.
She was also clever at hiding/revealing her hatred at various aspects of life. I would think that the hypocritical vicar might be one target, along with crap mothers.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
some places can be made deliberately conducive to an encounter with God. That is what organised worship is, or should be, about...
As someone quoted Madelaine L'Engle upthread, church can have the opposite effect. I come home from church stripped of any sense that God is interesting or matters; a month of regular attendance turns my personality deeply irritable or temporarily turns me unto an atheist. When I hear "You must go to church" what I hear is "we want to take God away from you."
I mostly stay away because I really do believe Jesus matters, and I dislike the church stripping me of that awareness.
As to
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
if your preferred place for finding God is the woods, I think you run the risk of having a very rosy and disneyfied view of nature. I'm with +Charles Gore, who said that going to the zoo made him an atheist in five minutes-
Thanks for the example of belittling someone for not loving formal church. That kind of judgmental dismissive ignorant statement convinces the non-church goer that church rejects them, nothing to see here, just scoldings for being real.
Why not instead, when running into someone who claims to love God and dislike church, try to learn more? Might be eyeopening to understand how one can see God in and through the bear that invaded the camp at night, the hailstorm huddled in a tent, the near fall into a boiling hot spring, the ticks and mosquitoes with their deadly diseases, the deadly poisonous snake crossing the trail two feet in front of you, the big cat print beside your tent in the morning, and awareness every year some people are killed by wildlife on this month long trail you are hiking.
Maybe those who become atheists at awareness of the violence of nature have a Disneyfied view of God from all that safe hymn singing and coffee in church?
I accept (however puzzled) that some people best connect with God in/through formal church; why can't church lovers accept that some people best connect with God in a wholly different environment?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Great post, Belle Ringer.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
That was a cheap shot of mine. In mitigation, I may say that people belittling (as i see it) church hurts and annoys me as much as my belittling (as you see it) your manner of worship plainly hurts and annoys you. But, sorry, Belle Ringer.
[ 01. June 2015, 19:47: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
It's up there with visiting your parents. It's obvious why it's wrong not to.
I only visit my parents once or twice a month.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
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Posted
When I was a student, a friend commented that the church she went to thought of her as 'vaguely committed' because she went to it on 1 in 3 sundays, whereas she felt fully committed to that church as she went to it on all the sundays that she was in the city. That seemed a typical pattern for most of my student friends.
A couple of years later it struck me that the big change happening in the churches was that the baby boomers had also fallen into the same pattern - they were always at church unless on a cruise, visiting the grandchildren, away looking after their parents. As families extend across more generations and a greater geography, this effect becomes more visible.
The most elderly congregants keep the old pattern of in church every sunday, with a few exceptions for long planned holidays. But for the majority of a congregation, there are regular reasons for not being at home and that filters through for church attendance. I suspect if you ask your irregular attenders what they do on other sundays, it probably is not 'have a lie in'.
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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
At our church, we have a couple who moved into the area about 12 months ago. They are quite committed to the church and one of them is now on the Parish Council. If we see them at church two weeks running, I am surprised - especially in the summer months. They are both keen bowlers (of the lawn variety!) and so many weekends are spent playing or officiating in tournaments.
(Who am I to say to them - "you should be at church on a Sunday morning, rather than fraternising with all those godless heathens"?!)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I accept (however puzzled) that some people best connect with God in/through formal church; why can't church lovers accept that some people best connect with God in a wholly different environment?
Most people aren't called to be hermits. For most people (even people like me who are basically antisocial introverts), I think a worshipping community is important, and I think worshipping in community is important.
That doesn't necessarily require formal liturgy, or a special building, but it does require a community of fellow Christians.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I accept (however puzzled) that some people best connect with God in/through formal church; why can't church lovers accept that some people best connect with God in a wholly different environment?
Most people aren't called to be hermits. For most people (even people like me who are basically antisocial introverts), I think a worshipping community is important, and I think worshipping in community is important.
That doesn't necessarily require formal liturgy, or a special building, but it does require a community of fellow Christians.
But that neatly avoids Belle Ringer's question. Maybe some Christians don't accept that there are other means of contacting God. I wonder if this connects with shrinking church attendance, that no other approach is even countenanced? My way or the high way.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
That was a cheap shot of mine. In mitigation, I may say that people belittling (as i see it) church hurts and annoys me as much as my belittling (as you see it) your manner of worship plainly hurts and annoys you. But, sorry, Belle Ringer.
Fair enough.
Took me years on the Ship to accept that some people really do look forward to going to church! I guess it's human to kinda assume others are "like me" so their motivations for doing (or not doing) something are what mine would be?
In discussions of "why aren't people coming to church," it can be hard to focus on how do others think, engage, order competing values and what are the benefits of their ways instead of the usual dismissive accusations "they are lazy, they don't want to get up," etc that don't help identify the real issues.
Besides, if people are dismissing and devaluing God, maybe there's a basic mis-education out there about who God is? Can the church can work on addressing that in the public sphere? Most of my atheist friends rejected God because of who they were taught God is. (I, too, reject that God.)
How does a church help teach the culture about God's greatness, gentleness, firmness, amazing love, in a culture that teaches a brutal, ineffective, or irrelevant god through movies, comics, novels, TV etc?
I would say most of my younger generation friends don't specifically reject God, they never give the concept of a god any thought; if there is a God that seems to be irrelevant.
Communicate the relevance of God to our lives today, and people who catch on will look for ways to address that relevance; some may look to church. I think trying to attract (or guilt) people to church is backwards.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I dunno ... there are so many variables here and everyone's different so I'm not sure if there is any easily identifiable set of answers to the questions you're posing, Belle Ringer.
All I can say is that however we cut it, if people are true to their convictions then the 'authenticity' of that will shine through in some way - whether people chose to accept or reject it, to ignore it or to explore it some more.
I recently had lunch with a chap I work with freelance now and again. One side of his family is strongly evangelical - in a rather traditional, full-on 1950s conservative evangelical kind of way. He finds them very off-putting ... yet, at the funeral of one of his cousins - who'd died at an untimely age - he'd been blown away by what he'd seen as the depth and integrity of his relatives' faith.
You can see that it had made a marked - and I would say indelible - impression upon him - for all the clumsiness of the approach and the out-of-synch old-fashionedness of the whole thing.
Or, perhaps because of that as well as inspite of that.
Whatever the case, it was clear that the over-riding impression had transcended any intrinsic naffness in the delivery or the 'packaging' if you like.
My colleague had seen something he took to be very, very real - and openly said that he was now on some kind of spiritual quest whereas he hadn't been up until that moment - and some other recent occurrences that had made him think.
I don't know how we 'translate' that into programmes and methodology - I'm not sure we can. But whatever the case, this chap had clearly been deeply affected.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Currently attending church every week is a struggle due to the combination of chronic illness and living in a rural area (my church not being my local church). I still love church - there are lots of Christians/interested people out there not physically able to get to church (or their local church is very unsuitable), but the parish priest coming to administer the Eucharist is not really what they want or need.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
What is seen as wrong with the Church telling people that it is wrong not to attend on Sunday, without a good reason?
Well we did. We anglo-catholics talked about 'Sunday obligation' but we do no better than MOTR in having many who turn up about once every 3-4 weeks.
The pragmatic problem with telling people that they should turn up every Sunday is that the ones you need to impress that on won't be there on the Sunday that you choose to tell 'em!!
Anecdotally, it seems that a lot of parents have problems with Church vs kids sports activities.
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Anecdotal maybe, but certainly true as far as Our Place is concerned.
My gut feeling is that this is simply something we have to live with, however much I personally may deplore the (apparent) lack of commitment of other people (and who am I to judge, anyway?)! Their lives and circumstances are not mine.
Our p-in-c says that he doesn't worry too much as long as (a) the Sacraments are celebrated, (b) the Word preached, and (c) those who are ill - or missing for a week or so - contacted and/or visited. At least the latter is not too hard a task, given a small congregation to start with....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The Bible doesn't lay down many rules about Christian rituals. Obviously, far more detail is given about Jewish ones. This means it's pretty well left to tradition, to groups of Christians, and ultimately to individuals, to decide exactly what they're going to do.
So the 'duty' to go to church every week seems to be more of a social or a legal imperative (depending on the culture in question) than a biblical one. I think the habit is primarily important because it strengthens the bonds between members of the Christian community, but in theory, all the benefits of churchgoing could take place away from what we call 'church'.
Communion is sometimes described by Anglicans here as the key purpose of the church gathering, but AFAIK the CofE doesn't generally present Communion as a reason why the lay Christian should worship more often. And the Protestant churches don't either - which makes sense, because many of them don't offer Communion every week. Some churchgoers make a special attempt to get to a Communion service, but are they better attended than other services, on the whole?
As things stand, I feel that church communities have been inarticulate for centuries about why weekly churchgoing is seriously important for every Christian. This may be because they're never been entirely clear about the reasons themselves. The most obvious reasons for going don't necessarily seem to be the most 'spiritual', which may explain some of the hesitancy.
[ 04. June 2015, 22:58: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It's not that people have abandoned us, moved away, died, become Jedi, or gone off in a huff - it's just that attendance at Church - even amongst the 'committed' - seems to be a low priority. I do acknowledge, of course, that for some, pressures of work or family are a problem, but this irregularity does seem to be getting worse.
I was a regular until the choir director moved rehearsal from Thursday evening to Sunday morning at 8 am. I dropped out of the choir, and soon found that singing was the only thing that had been keeping me in church. I haven't attended regularly for about a year.
I have continued to support the church financially, however, and I suppose that's why I'm on the list of people to be personally solicited to contribute to the capital campaign. There is apparently no list of people to be personally asked why they are almost never in church anymore, so I'm not motivated to increase the frequency of my attendance.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatl: Church too wordy now for me
(This is rather funny coming someone who is regularly on the Ship )
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
quetzalcoatl: Church too wordy now for me
(This is rather funny coming someone who is regularly on the Ship )
You mean that the Ship is like a church? Well ...
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So the 'duty' to go to church every week seems to be more of a social or a legal imperative (depending on the culture in question) than a biblical one.
I believe the lack of specific biblical imperatives re church-going (altho there are one or two) has more to do with the difference of a communal society vs. a highly individualistic one, rather than a lack of significance to the ritual itself. In a very communal society there would be no need to urge people to spend time in community-- the benefits are obvious. This can still be seen in many parts of the world that are more communal than we are-- e.g. parts of Africa and South America, where 4+ hour church services are the norm, and eagerly attended.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
So the 'duty' to go to church every week seems to be more of a social or a legal imperative (depending on the culture in question) than a biblical one. I think the habit is primarily important because it strengthens the bonds between members of the Christian community, but in theory, all the benefits of churchgoing could take place away from what we call 'church'.
...As things stand, I feel that church communities have been inarticulate for centuries about why weekly churchgoing is seriously important for every Christian. This may be because they're never been entirely clear about the reasons themselves. The most obvious reasons for going don't necessarily seem to be the most 'spiritual', which may explain some of the hesitancy.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think the habit is primarily important because it strengthens the bonds between members of the Christian community, but in theory, all the benefits of churchgoing could take place away from what we call 'church'.
I would rather just broaden my definition of "church" to include other, less formal, gatherings of Christians.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
...As things stand, I feel that church communities have been inarticulate for centuries about why weekly churchgoing is seriously important for every Christian. This may be because they're never been entirely clear about the reasons themselves. The most obvious reasons for going don't necessarily seem to be the most 'spiritual', which may explain some of the hesitancy.
While I don't agree that the reasons for attending church are not all that "spiritual", I agree that we haven't done a good job of articulating the, which is the whole problem in a nutshell.
[ 05. June 2015, 16:04: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
quetzalcoatl: Church too wordy now for me
(This is rather funny coming someone who is regularly on the Ship )
You mean that the Ship is like a church? Well ...
Yes. Including it's wordiness.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
In my experience here, church is no longer cultural.
The old prevailing culture included church attendance. For socialising, for living, for the norm. Hence the disparaging term 'cultural Christians'.
These days Church is not the norm. Those who go, don't go out of civic responsibility or pattern. But theoretically have a greater commitment to the church.
Me, well my theology moved away from the church.
I am tired of the judgemental shallow ignorance presented week after week in the pews.
I prefer my judgemental deeper ignorance.
But seriously, it is only that I care about some of the congregation that keeps me attending infrequently at all. I give at work, and I am not sustained in the church- merely asked of more and more. I have no more to give.
If you want me back regularly, make me a community to be proud of and feel a part of. And no, I will not make it for you. that is not where I am at currently.
[ 06. June 2015, 02:11: Message edited by: Patdys ]
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Just this. For me church is everywhere I am with people, and life itself has become my perpetual hymn of praise to my Saviour.
Things that lift my spirit more often happen outside church buildings than inside. Three white cockatoos just wheeled past my window, weaving in and out of each other and calling raucously - somehow the Trinity came to mind and this made me smile.
I feel utterly at home among any group of Christians who attempt to worship in spirit and in truth.
It is never about my comfort when I attend a church service: it is about being open to however God chooses to stretch my understanding that day. I have found that I do miss the liturgy and the sacrament of my cradle faith if I tarry too long elsewhere, so eventually I return to a more formal mode of church. I attend monthly in order to serve and to receive word and sacrament in time honoured fashion. But I have "church" experiences all the time in other organisations where I volunteer.
It is my experience that churches are best kept at arms length to survive them well. I have witnessed churches being torn apart by personality issues, and I know from friends in other denominations that this is not uncommon. I am not even sure that the form of church we have today is what Jesus would want for us.
Loving it in its present form is very challenging. I look forward to seeing significant change in the near future, but I do not underestimate how difficult that will be.
BL. Going on with God, come what may, and often despite what is happening in church.
[ 06. June 2015, 03:35: Message edited by: Banner Lady ]
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
I think it has become very difficult for Joe Blow to decide to come to church when there are much more attractive things to do and the media is constantly telling him that there is no God, that He is just an imaginary friend. To swim against the tide takes great courage and I can see why young people in particular would prefer not to jump in at the deep end. In my city, we too are having to compete with so many other activities that the community has decided can only take place on a Sunday - indeed, there have been fun runs around the streets which entailed closing off street access so that we were unable to enter the church. The attitude of people was "well, can't you just cancel church for once?"
My daughter, an infant school teacher, asked her class to draw a church and several children didn't even know what a church was. I really don't know the answer as society has changed and as someone else said church is seen as an optional leisure activity rather than something as essential as attending work/school.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Baptists (and other Christians from the 15th/16th century Separatist tradition) strongly support the idea of the Church as a "Covenant Community". This does seem to imply a certain discipline in making the effort to sustain that community, including attendance both at Worship and Church (Members') Meetings.
IMO Baptist are possibly better than most at regular church attendance; however participation in Church Meetings has ben on the slide for at least a century, probably due to them turning from an exciting encounter with the guiding Holy Spirit to the boring bureaucracy of official reports and Minutes.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I really don't know the answer as society has changed and as someone else said church is seen as an optional leisure activity rather than something as essential as attending work/school.
This is the bottom line of this thread, as far as I'm concerned.
The problem is that too many Christians prefer to bemoan the fact and hope that church will one day become essential again ("a Revival is coming!") rather than accepting it and making the necessary adaptions that will encourage people to come back through the doors. What was it St Paul said: "to the Romans I am a Roman, to the Greeks I am a Greek" or something similar? Well maybe to the 21st Century Western World we need to be a bit more 21st Century Western World?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
I suppose we do. Lord, how I hate the 21st century western world. But it's the one we're stuck in.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Yep. But the only way to change it is to engage with it.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Indeed, however much some of wish we didn't have to.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Touchstone
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# 3560
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Posted
I think there are many people out there who hate the 21st century western world and are desperately looking for a radically different way of living, but the church is not really offering it.
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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!
Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
One of the things that has struck me recently as I have consciously 're-engaged' with people I knew from my more full-on 'restorationist' charismatic days -- not that I have consciously avoided these people but I know live in a different part of the country -- is how many of them still have their faith yet aren't engaged in church in any formal sense.
'There's only so many sermons you can listen to,' one said to me the other day.
All traditions have issues with what we might call 'spiritual formation' and also retention. The Methodist mother of a former work colleague stopped going to church in her 60s on the grounds that she'd attended so much in your youth that this had built up a 'bank' of attendance, as it were - and so she no longer needed to carry on doing so ...
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
It's easy to laugh at instances like this, but I do think they illustrate a deeper malaise. I'm not entirely convinced - contra Baptist Trainfan - that the 'church meeting' in Baptist/Congregationalist terms was any more pneumatic or exciting 50 or 100 years ago than there are today - although I suspect he's right to some extent as there would have been something of a 'frisson' involved in making your own collective decisions in a world where you were pretty much 'told' what to do in most working and social environments ... 'pull that lever on that loom, heft that bale ...'
That's not to knock the concept of the 'church meeting', simply to suggest that it's no longer as 'radical' or exciting as it may once have seemed.
A friend of mine who is involved with theological education in one of the 'new church' networks complained recently about his encounter with some Anglicans - it was in connection with developing some training modules based on CofE models - who'd sniffily observed that they'd been involved with the Christian Union at university but had since 'moved beyond all that ...'
I could understand his distaste for their attitude, but put it to him that for all the sniffiness and snobbery, could it not be that they had a point? When you drop a stone into the CU tub it's not long before you hear the clang as it hits the other side.
I suspect part of the problem - across all traditions and churchmanships - is that people feel that they've exhausted everything there is on offer when it comes to church attendance and services. There are indeed, only so many sermons you can listen to ... and for those who go in for formal liturgies, that can quickly pale unless you catch the liturgical 'bug'. Many do, of course, but for all those who find depth and meaning in the repetition of familiar words and repeated cycles of themes and patterns, there are equally plenty who tire of it and so turn up only occasionally.
I don't think there's any easy answer - nor do I think it's an issue of apportioning 'blame' necessarily ... because each and every style and form of church has its own equivalent of this tendency.
There's a legitimate spectrum, though, it seems to me, between those 'covenanted' churches where fellowship can become so close and overwhelming that people hardly have any kind of life outside of church - and the kind of pop-in 'filling station' approach you find in some of the more sacramental churches.
There are equal and opposite dangers at both ends of the spectrum. How we strike the right balance and configure our services and modus operandi to the more fluid conditions of 21st century life, I don't know. But it's worth a try ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I think that's true Touchstone ...
I'm not sure how the churches can, collectively, demonstrate a radically different way of living unless they became outrageously different to everyone else in an Amish-like sense -- and that would simply be to introduce a different set of problems.
I'm convinced, though, that many people are spending far too much time in the pews and not enough out involved in the world ...
That's a different problem to the one the OP has identified. The OP is all about why there are so many people missing on a Sunday ... one might equally ask why Christians are missing from stuff that goes on in their communities week by week ...
I well remember reading an article in the Baptist Times by a minister who'd got involved in some kind of social-activism in his community. The bulk of those involved were leftward leaning types on a pretty broad spectrum from moderate left-of-centre types through to full-on Marxists. One of the latter observed to him that whilst it was great to have him on board as a Christian minister, where was the rest of his congregation?
Now, I'm not saying that social activism or leftwing politics are necessarily the right forum for everyone ... but you get my drift.
If all we are doing is gathering on a Sunday then it doesn't matter how exciting, boring, contemporary, ancient or whatever else our services are - nobody's even going to notice us.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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MrsBeaky
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# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I think there are many people out there who hate the 21st century western world and are desperately looking for a radically different way of living, but the church is not really offering it.
I think so too.
Part of my own take on church attendance/ membership is that it equips me to live my life and especially my attempts to represent Christ to all the people I encounter.
So perhaps part of what we need to address in the church is how to get ourselves to a place where we can make it clear that we offer something of value in equipping people for daily living, something more than self-help techniques, something almost mystical and full of wonder, yet immensely practical too:
ie loving God and our neighbour
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
I feel utterly at home among any group of Christians who attempt to worship in spirit and in truth.
Me too.
I used to attend Church Sunday on Sunday for a period of about 8 years so no doubt would have been regarded as one of BF's "Usual suspects", (not sure that terminology is the best way to keep committed worshipers BTW).
Having come to Christ through something of a life crisis, Church was like a Hospital to get over myself. I go to Church less frequently now so it could be argued... why keep going to hospital once a person has been made better.
Also I see the Church, for some unknown reason, producing a high rate of depression in it's attendees. So if I feel my own anxiety levels are increasing then that becomes a reason for staying away. There may come a day when I'll cease formal worship altogether, but at the moment I content to support an organisation,albeit infrequently, that supported me when I needed it.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I go to church to receive the sacrament in the company of other Christians. At my church, the sermons are usually interesting, and the music is good, but that's just the icing on the cake.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I think there are many people out there who hate the 21st century western world and are desperately looking for a radically different way of living, but the church is not really offering it.
I think so too.
Part of my own take on church attendance/ membership is that it equips me to live my life and especially my attempts to represent Christ to all the people I encounter.
So perhaps part of what we need to address in the church is how to get ourselves to a place where we can make it clear that we offer something of value in equipping people for daily living, something more than self-help techniques, something almost mystical and full of wonder, yet immensely practical too:
ie loving God and our neighbour
Or perhaps it's about the fact that those people have something to offer the community, something valuable and essential, rather than what the Church has to offer them. Perhaps we're so focused on figuring out what sort of incentives to offer for good attendance that we forget to let them know they are needed (and not just for their $$).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Or perhaps it's about the fact that those people have something to offer the community, something valuable and essential, rather than what the Church has to offer them. Perhaps we're so focused on figuring out what sort of incentives to offer for good attendance that we forget to let them know they are needed (and not just for their $$).
I apologise if it sounded like I was writing off people who would not count themselves as part of the church. That was not my intention at all.I have worked alongside such people to try to transform several situations. It was more about the fact that the church (on a good day and with the wind behind us!) can be a wonderful source of the strength to do this work.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree with something Lamb Chopped said some days ago. I think she's got an important point.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
maybe rephrase that? Like maybe, "Is my knowledge of/desire for/relationship with (choose your preference) God such that I'm willing to commit to something that will benefit it?" (for values of church which DO benefit it, obviously--I imagine some don't)
The reason I'm rephrasing is because I don't think an external pull (like "exciting" services) is going to produce anything lasting or worthwhile; and I don't think churches should be aiming for entertainment. (the other extreme is also bad, of course--but I don't look for constant excitement in my 30 year marriage, either)
It isn't about the Church. It's about God.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Or perhaps it's about the fact that those people have something to offer the community, something valuable and essential, rather than what the Church has to offer them. Perhaps we're so focused on figuring out what sort of incentives to offer for good attendance that we forget to let them know they are needed (and not just for their $$).
I apologise if it sounded like I was writing off people who would not count themselves as part of the church. That was not my intention at all.I have worked alongside such people to try to transform several situations. It was more about the fact that the church (on a good day and with the wind behind us!) can be a wonderful source of the strength to do this work.
I didn't hear you as writing people off at all. I just heard it more of "we need to do more things to entice them to come to church." All of which is well-intentioned, of course. But it implies that church is some bitter pill that people have to be induced to take. And it reduces it all to a very consumerist mentality: "what's in it for me?" But I think part of the motive for church-going is, for many, a sense of being needed rather than a sense of needing. That you are important to the community (even the odd, quirky ones of us that challenge the community) and something is lacking when you're not there (and not just the $$ you put in the plate). This could be done in a very manipulative way, of course ("if you're not here, who will teach the 2 year olds/ serve the coffee/ sing in choir"?) but it can also be done in a way that just helps people feel appreciated and know that they make a meaningful contribution that is noticed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by cliffdweller:
I didn't hear you as writing people off at all. I just heard it more of "we need to do more things to entice them to come to church." All of which is well-intentioned, of course. But it implies that church is some bitter pill that people have to be induced to take. And it reduces it all to a very consumerist mentality: "what's in it for me?" But I think part of the motive for church-going is, for many, a sense of being needed rather than a sense of needing. That you are important to the community (even the odd, quirky ones of us that challenge the community) and something is lacking when you're not there (and not just the $$ you put in the plate). This could be done in a very manipulative way, of course ("if you're not here, who will teach the 2 year olds/ serve the coffee/ sing in choir"?) but it can also be done in a way that just helps people feel appreciated and know that they make a meaningful contribution that is noticed.
Blimey, I'm communicating badly!
I wouldn't dream of trying to entice anyone to come to church- that sort of thing leaves me cold nowadays.
I think being part of the church community can be about needing and being needed: sometimes one, sometimes the other and sometimes both together.
I also think this is about God as Enoch says and not solely about church.
But church on a good day can be a place where we encounter God and receive strength to live in this world and make a contribution to our community- be that within the church or further afield.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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