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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Trigger Warnings
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Nicely walked up the middle LC.
But I want to be a princess too! Pleease!
You can be my princess. Now I've got a princess and a cabana boy!
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Nice, up the ante, narcissist.
Is this still Purgatory? I am confused.
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
How about choosing to spare someone else's feelings?
Depends on the person and how much of a delicate little snowflake they are.
What if that's not your call? What if what YOU call a "delicate little snowflake" is someone who watched their mother being raped and then murdered? Why is it so fucking difficult to be compassionate toward other people without calling them ugly names like "delicate little snowflake"? What the fuck is that about?
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
People are dying. In the streets around me. Every day. You want to tell me I can't discuss the actual problems in order to try to find actual solutions because it upsets your precious widdle princess?
Nobody is talking about banning difficult subjects, but about providing kindly warnings to people who might be traumatized by them. Are you perchance on the wrong thread? Because you seem to be arguing against something that has not been presented here.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's like warning someone they're about to step in dog shit, isn't it? Not a legal responsibility, but we'd take it so very kindly of you.
exfuckingactly.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is this still Purgatory? I am confused.
I certainly am judging by much of the last fifteen posts or so (and that includes yours, mousethief).
Do you all remember "attack the issue and not the person"? Good. Take the personal insults to Hell.
And help the hosts' blood pressure by counting to ten and calming down before posting.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm not going to go suing somebody if they fail to provide such a warning, but depending on the context, my opinion of them may plummet.
It's like warning someone they're about to step in dog shit, isn't it? Not a legal responsibility, but we'd take it so very kindly of you.
Would that life were that simple.
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
It's only a matter of time before all universities require students to sign affidavits regarding their mental health before course commencement.
The result of that will be somewhat self-selecting.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
I love the way that the anti-warnings faction are always willing to weigh a possible future harm to an institution against the demonstrable present harm already being done to actual human beings.
There's also a high degree of unrealism about lawsuits here. The reason personal injury lawsuits are prevalent in the USA is that the USA hasn't got a public healthcare system worthy of the name. A nation that expects you to pay up front for the ambulance that takes you to hospital can expect its citizens to try everything possible to offload those costs. Now rightly or wrongly there's no ambulance for hurt feelings, and not much medical support for being upset. So the scale of possible damages, even if such a case were to be brought, would be minimal.
I also don't see how the possible threat leads you to be against warnings. Let's suppose for a moment that the threat is credible. Then issuing warnings is the correct thing to do to mitigate the risk and protect the academic establishment. By arguing against warnings, whilst also arguing that the threat is real, you're advocating that colleges should wilfully expose themselves to a threat of litigation which could be cheaply avoided.
Of course, you could be concern trolling in order to defend your own entrenched position.
What's your position on the current state of the academic publishing market?
t
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Little devil
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Of course, you could be concern trolling in order to defend your own entrenched position.
What's your position on the current state of the academic publishing market?
t
Teufelchen, I asked posters very recently to cool down. Accusing other people of trolling of any nature is unacceptable in Purgatory, and doubly so in view of my warning above.
Put your arguments in a less inflammatory manner, take them to Hell, or expect attention from an admin.
And for the avoidance of doubt, that applies to everyone else, too.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
This is far down the worries of the academics of my acquaintance, who are generally more concerned about the trend towards treating universities as businesses whose primary function is to get students lucrative jobs and whose secondary function is to provide research on the cheap to corporate sponsors (sorry, 'impact').
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I love the way that the anti-warnings faction are always willing to weigh a possible future harm to an institution
Not to an institution, but to what the institution ideally represents, ie free and open inquiry.
quote:
against the demonstrable present harm already being done to actual human beings.
Begging the question.
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I love the way that the anti-warnings faction are always willing to weigh a possible future harm to an institution
Not to an institution, but to what the institution ideally represents, ie free and open inquiry.
I don't see how saying "this might upset some people" threatens that. And I don't find the argument about lawsuits convincing, not least because of the self-defeating nature of your argument that I outlined above.
quote:
quote:
against the demonstrable present harm already being done to actual human beings.
Begging the question.
People specifically reporting that they have suffered as a result of something is evidence that harm occurs. You speculating that a lawsuit might happen is not. I don't think I'm the one begging the question.
t
PS: Eutychus, sorry for overstepping the line.
[ 04. June 2015, 09:30: Message edited by: Teufelchen ]
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
People specifically reporting that they have suffered as a result of something is evidence that harm occurs.
With respect, people specifically reporting that they have suffered as a result of something is evidence that people are reporting that they have suffered as a result of something.
Not that quantifiable harm has actually occurred.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Surely most of this has already been nailed, in this thread?
a) the trigger (ahem) for the OP didn't appear, to me, to be any kind of "trigger warning" in context; just an acknowledgement that the thread was going to touch in stuff most folk prefer not to dwell on, and that there was also a risk of a perception of ghoulishness which was not intended.
b) it should all have been wrapped with Kelly's observation that a lot of the heat-not-light is tied to the phrase "trigger warning" which can, in some of us, lead to a strong jerking knee of the "Oh FFS" eye-rolling variety because of a perceived mis-matched correlation between the drama of the phrase, and (some of) the context(s) to which it is being applied (or perhaps the discourses in which it is often used).
Using a less emotive phrase (advisory, content note, whatever) would move it from a (risk of) "look at the OTT little drama queens swooning and foaming" to "oh, that's a courteous thing to do".
Much like Lamb Chopped's dog shit example.
Or, in other words, trigger warnings are generally a good thing (although I'm sure we can all find examples that we consider ridiculous) but calling them trigger warnings is pretty unhelpful as it conjures up (for some) an image of folk who are desperately, desperately earnest about everything and totally out of touch with any sense of proportion or reality (as perceived by the perceiver) - and that's a perception of those offering the trigger warning, not those who may need it.
Trigger warnings can be triggering for old reactionaries.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
People specifically reporting that they have suffered as a result of something is evidence that harm occurs.
With respect, people specifically reporting that they have suffered as a result of something is evidence that people are reporting that they have suffered as a result of something.
Not that quantifiable harm has actually occurred.
No, it's not proof. But it is evidence. It's evidence that could conceivably be gainsaid by other, stronger evidence.
But it's often the best evidence we've got. I'm not in the business of calling trauma victims liars in order to prove a rhetorical point.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Using a less emotive phrase (advisory, content note, whatever) would move it from a (risk of) "look at the OTT little drama queens swooning and foaming" to "oh, that's a courteous thing to do".
Much like Lamb Chopped's dog shit example.
Or, in other words, trigger warnings are generally a good thing (although I'm sure we can all find examples that we consider ridiculous) but calling them trigger warnings is pretty unhelpful as it conjures up (for some) an image of folk who are desperately, desperately earnest about everything and totally out of touch with any sense of proportion or reality (as perceived by the perceiver) - and that's a perception of those offering the trigger warning, not those who may need it.
I tend to use 'content note' myself. But expecting the more vulnerable group to modify their use of language, and expectations about the use of language, for the benefit of the less vulnerable group seems inherently unjust to me.
Discomfort about the phrase 'trigger warning' is not even in the same ballpark as the distress caused by many of the things we're contemplating providing warnings about.
t
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Little devil
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I'm not in the business of calling trauma victims liars in order to prove a rhetorical point.
Strangely enough, neither am I. However, as I and others eminently more qualified have said, those suffering from such overwhelming PTSD that the mere mention of Leda and the Swan in an academic context brings flashbacks, should be under the care of medical professionals and not undertaking university courses at that time.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I'm not in the business of calling trauma victims liars in order to prove a rhetorical point.
Strangely enough, neither am I. However, as I and others eminently more qualified have said, those suffering from such overwhelming PTSD that the mere mention of Leda and the Swan in an academic context brings flashbacks, should be under the care of medical professionals and not undertaking university courses at that time.
I didn't mean to imply that you were doing such a thing; apologies if I did.
In the context of academic studies of Greek myth, I think the intended purpose of a warning about (say) Leda and the Swan would be more 'brace yourself' than 'we think you can't handle this at all'.
But if people with severe mental health problems aren't supposed to do university work, I'd never have got either of my degrees. Arguing against measures which might make it more practical for them to do so, on the basis that an extreme situation might prevent them anyway, seems mistaken.
t
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Little devil
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
The thing with PTSD is that all sorts of things can be triggers, and you can't predict them. Little innocent things that are associated with the trauma in the person's mind - and the longer the trauma lasted, the more such triggers there will be. It would be impossible to put a trigger warning on everything that could potentially trigger. I wouldn't say people with PTSD shouldn't be studying - I studied literature when I had PTSD, and I loved it. Sure, things triggered me, but that was the case whatever I was doing. Triggers pop up all the time. The things that triggered me weren't things that you would expect, and would have been impossible to predict. I don't think trigger warnings would have been useful to me. But I can see the value of trigger warnings on emotive subjects - not so much because reading about them may trigger, but because when studying literature, you are then put into groups to talk about what you read, and being unexpectedly triggered in a group situation can be difficult.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen
Discomfort about the phrase 'trigger warning' is not even in the same ballpark as the distress caused by many of the things we're contemplating providing warnings about.
You seem to be misunderstanding which 'side' I'm on here. I'm essentially with you, and think Kaplan Corday's stance is alarmist and lacking in a bit of common decency.
However, ultimately, it's about constructive use of language. As is usual in life, there most likely needs to be movement on both sides. Those who suddenly become compassionless arses because the phrase "trigger warning" kicks off a knee-jerk need to wind it back in a bit and have a heart. Those who need and find trigger warnings helpful may need to take on board that keeping the warning but changing the label may lead to greater acceptance and so on.
And that's leaving aside a cynical observation that there's probably a third class of people who have a vested interest in perpetuating and extending emotive and dramatic language who don't necessarily act in the interests of either of the other two sets (although doubtless there's overlap).
There's also a difference between care and concern and walking on eggshells. And there's also a difference in personality and how people handle things that it probably behoves all of us to give more consideration to.
So many of these discussions feel like the bit in a film where the two folk who will end up together have a disagreement or misunderstanding, and veer off into ever more entrenched positions before it all comes good, when all they need to do is talk to each other and we could all go home an hour sooner ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
But if people with severe mental health problems aren't supposed to do university work, I'd never have got either of my degrees.
I've never argued otherwise. The mistake to make is to treat the course as therapy. Tutors are not therapists.
I've known colleagues who had a variety of mental health issues, which affected their ability to successfully complete their courses, who were treated with care and compassion by their relevant departments. Sometimes, their health deteriorated to such an extent that they had to take time out, change courses, resit a year or simply leave in order to get better. This pragmatic approach by both faculty and students seems to me to be best for all.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
I think part of the problem that people have or don't have with "trigger warnings" is about nomenclature.
In general,I would agree with others upthread who have suggested that "Content Note: blah blah blah" might be a better term in most cases - like on news sites or on college papers. It's a kindness to those who might be struggling with something, and provides a handy summary for those who might not feel like reading something heavy that day who might like to come back to it without making people feel like they're being treated like children.
The context in which the phrase "Trigger Warning" seems to me to be useful is more specific, possibly best illustrated by example as it's more nebulous.
So, imagine in this example you're browsing a Pro-Ana (definition on wiki) website. Some threads or sections might talk about specifics of people's lightest weight and how they got there or specific details about cutting, and often these might be prefixed by a "Trigger Warning" for those who are trying to get better.
In that case, it's a context where a lot of the people may well have very similar triggers, and where some of them may not want to continue in the behaviours that might be triggered, while others are not at that point yet and are not actively seeking help or treatment. The nature of a lot of Pro Ana sites is that there is a mixture of those there, some seeking support but not wanting to "fix" their eating disorder, while others might be starting some type of treatment or counselling, but still looking for understanding. In that case, the specific meaning of the phrase "Trigger Warning" is a useful shorthand, and might meaningfully be used rather than a more formal-sounding "Content Note: _ " thing.
Does that make sense?
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
So, imagine in this example you're browsing a Pro-Ana (definition on wiki) website.
I'm not sure this is a good example. Pro-ana sites are as toxic as fuck to anyone with anorexia or body-weight issues. Any trigger warnings you might find there will be about as useful as a packet of plasters taped to the side of a hand grenade.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
- but in the context of what those sites are and what they're about, it's where people are at, and the "This might be a bit triggery" or Trigger Warning" flags will be understood by pretty much all there, whereas on a website with a wider clientele some might not see the point of them and find it annoying to be "warned", but not so much to see a "content note".
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Almost every mental health organisation who's said anything about pro-ana sites has come down on the side of 'nope'. Yes, it might be 'where they're at', but 'where they're at' is not a good place, and trigger warnings there merely reinforce the illusion of control over an illness which, according to some, has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
I tend to use 'content note' myself.
t
“Content note” I could live with.
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
The thing with PTSD is that all sorts of things can be triggers, and you can't predict them. Little innocent things that are associated with the trauma in the person's mind - and the longer the trauma lasted, the more such triggers there will be. It would be impossible to put a trigger warning on everything that could potentially trigger. I wouldn't say people with PTSD shouldn't be studying - I studied literature when I had PTSD, and I loved it. Sure, things triggered me, but that was the case whatever I was doing. Triggers pop up all the time. The things that triggered me weren't things that you would expect, and would have been impossible to predict. I don't think trigger warnings would have been useful to me. But I can see the value of trigger warnings on emotive subjects - not so much because reading about them may trigger, but because when studying literature, you are then put into groups to talk about what you read, and being unexpectedly triggered in a group situation can be difficult.
This.
Since I have experienced PTSD myself, and share the experience Fineline describes, I would favor a different approach to the general problem of (A) assigning readings which contain potentially disturbing material and (B) educating students by assigning such material.
Where I taught, students with issues that affect their learning would get Reasonable Accommodation Plans. PTSD is an actual disorder, and it can certainly affect someone’s learning. People likely to have their learning experience(s) derailed by something they might read can have this noted in the RAP. It is then the student’s responsibility to alert instructors about these issues.
This obviates the potential problems raised by plastering multiple warnings on multiple readings, which can (A) be abused by students intent on avoiding work – where I taught, there were plenty of these; (B) arousing the unhealthier forms of curiosity which could lead to people sort of self-inducing the experience Kelly had with the book, described above, and thereby making so-called trigger warnings do the exact opposite of what they were meant for; (C) leading well-meaning students to seek from instructors guidance the instructors are in no position to give.
In short, issue RAPs where needed; explain to affected students how to make appropriate use of these; and stop the general labeling of reading material with warnings.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I was in college sixty years ago, a history professor gave a detailed description of what was done to people who were drawn and quartered. I don't know what effect this had on any other student, but it disturbed me very much.
I couldn't stop thinking, not only of the people treated this way, but the people who did it. How could anyone stand to watch it?
I'm fairly sure the professor would never have said that if he had known the effect it would have on me, and possibly other students. I still haven't decided whether he was wrong to say that.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I'm fairly sure the professor would never have said that if he had known the effect it would have on me, and possibly other students. I still haven't decided whether he was wrong to say that.
He probably knew what he was doing, had done it before to all his other classes, and would continue to do so until he retired. Whether he was doing it deliberately to squick people out, or doing it to bring home the point that this was a form of execution was also mass entertainment for the assembled crowd, is anyone's guess.
But unless you'd previously attended a public execution where mutilation was a major part of the sentence, I don't think the material can be described as 'triggering'.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
The thing with PTSD is that all sorts of things can be triggers, and you can't predict them. Little innocent things that are associated with the trauma in the person's mind - and the longer the trauma lasted, the more such triggers there will be. It would be impossible to put a trigger warning on everything that could potentially trigger. I wouldn't say people with PTSD shouldn't be studying - I studied literature when I had PTSD, and I loved it. Sure, things triggered me, but that was the case whatever I was doing. Triggers pop up all the time. The things that triggered me weren't things that you would expect, and would have been impossible to predict. I don't think trigger warnings would have been useful to me. But I can see the value of trigger warnings on emotive subjects - not so much because reading about them may trigger, but because when studying literature, you are then put into groups to talk about what you read, and being unexpectedly triggered in a group situation can be difficult.
The first time I ever saw the phrase " trigger warning" was on a tichtillomania forum, and I read it as a warning that reading about hair pulling incidents would tempt someone to drift into that behavior. So yeah, " trigger" means something a lot more clinical to me than "content that an average human being might find upsetting."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The mistake to make is to treat the course as therapy. Tutors are not therapists.
I don't get the connection between trigger warnings and treating a course as therapy. Was there a suggestion that creating trigger warnings means tutors are acting as therapists, or encouraging students to treat the course as therapy?
Another example of trigger warnings, which perhaps more people can relate to, often occurs in health care related degrees and courses. When there is a lecture about bereavement or dying, then the students are warned beforehand that if they think they might find the lecture difficult they can talk to the tutor and arrange not to attend (they'd have to read the material separately). There is a general understanding (probably because most people experience the death of a loved one at some time) that if someone has experienced a recent bereavement, they are likely to find a talk about death difficult.
The term 'trigger warning' isn't used in this example, but that is essentially what it is - the talk may trigger painful emotions that are not yet processed. The warning doesn't mean the course is therapy, or that students see it as such, or that tutors are therapists. And no one sees people who opt out of attending the lecture due to a recent bereavement as 'delicate little snowflakes'. People tend to understand this sort of 'triggering'. Triggers due to PTSD are fairly similar, although often more complex, and long lasting. Brain and body are changed by it, so it is a physical reaction too.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I don't want to make the distinction between 'real' reactions and ... other sorts. Having been recently bereaved, I found listening to the tributes to Charles Kennedy surprisingly difficult, though not inexplicably so, given my circumstances. So I'm not going to tell anyone that their reaction to something within the normal bounds of human experience is to be treated lightly. Your example of medical training is a good one. All doctors need to know how to handle breaking bad news to patients and relatives, and when the course is scheduled can't take into account the life circumstances of all their students.
From what I've heard and read, much of the debate is happening in US universities over courses and content that, to be honest, are at least once removed from matters of life and death. This is the statement from the American Association of University Professors, and includes:
quote:
The classroom is not the appropriate venue to treat PTSD, which is a medical condition that requires serious medical treatment. Trigger warnings are an inadequate and diversionary response. Medical research suggests that triggers for individuals can be unpredictable, dependent on networks of association. So color, taste, smell, and sound may lead to flashbacks and panic attacks as often as the mention of actual forms of violence such as rape and war.
And later:
quote:
Instead, as with other disabilities, a student diagnosed with PTSD should, in advance, agree on a plan for treatment with the relevant health advisors who, in some cases, may want to alert teachers to the presence of a trauma victim in their classroom. The Americans with Disabilities Act contains recommendations for reasonable accommodation to be made on an individual basis. This should be done without affecting other students’ exposure to material that has educational value.
Which fits Porridge's response here.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
The classroom is not the appropriate venue to treat PTSD, which is a medical condition that requires serious medical treatment. Trigger warnings are an inadequate and diversionary response. Medical research suggests that triggers for individuals can be unpredictable, dependent on networks of association. So color, taste, smell, and sound may lead to flashbacks and panic attacks as often as the mention of actual forms of violence such as rape and war.
I definitely agree that triggers can't be predicted, and can be incredibly varied - that's what I said in an earlier post. I'm just not sure why giving trigger warnings is seen as treatment for PTSD. It would never occur to me to see a trigger warning as therapy. Surely it would be more accurate for lecturers to simply say that students can't possibly expect the warnings to cover every type of trigger, but that they will warn about specific emotive topics.
quote:
And later:
Instead, as with other disabilities, a student diagnosed with PTSD should, in advance, agree on a plan for treatment with the relevant health advisors who, in some cases, may want to alert teachers to the presence of a trauma victim in their classroom. The Americans with Disabilities Act contains recommendations for reasonable accommodation to be made on an individual basis. This should be done without affecting other students’ exposure to material that has educational value.
This also makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I imagine a lot of traumatised people are not seeking support, may not even know they have PTSD, or may not want their condition/experience revealed to lecturers (for all kinds of reasons). Of course, they can't then expect individualised accommodation, but may appreciate general warnings about things like rape/death/suicide/violence. I'm not sure how that would affect other students' exposure to the material - unless it is a spoiler, I suppose. A trigger warning surely doesn't mean the book isn't studied. But it would be quite a lot of extra work for lecturers to think about which warnings need to be applied to which works, and it wouldn't be an exact science, even with specific criteria.
Personally, I'd think it would be more relevant with regard to seminars, rather than the actual reading - to warn that in a seminar, the topic being discussed is an emotive one. Maybe more applicable to health and social care than to literature, because literature seminars tend to be about a whole book, rather than a topic. But then, of course, even if you are covering a non-emotive topic, you never know what direction a discussion may take. So I can definitely see the wisdom in clarifying that trigger warnings are limited and cannot guarantee protection from triggers. I just don't see that as meaning that trigger warnings are being seen as therapy, or that they should never be used.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Part of my reaction above relates to things as discussed in this article
quote:
...students complained that he exposed them to ‘offensive’ texts written by Edward Said and Mark Twain,” he says. “That was enough to get me to comb through my syllabi and cut out anything I could see upsetting a coddled undergrad, texts ranging from Upton Sinclair to Maureen Tkacik...
I hold two adjunct academic appointments; the scariness of students and interns wanting to be warned or for certain things to be left out completely is a problem.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The first time I ever saw the phrase " trigger warning" was on a tichtillomania forum, and I read it as a warning that reading about hair pulling incidents would tempt someone to drift into that behavior. So yeah, " trigger" means something a lot more clinical to me than "content that an average human being might find upsetting."
Yep. This is also a great example of how trigger warnings can be very useful within a specialist community but not be reasonably expected outside it.
There are so many possible triggers for different types of problem. Common causes of PTSD include sexual violence, serious road accidents, mugging, robbery, prolonged violence, severe neglect, witnessing violent deaths and military combat. These aren't unusual events. I'm also pretty sure I know people who developed PTSD from serious bullying. Then there are all the (perfectly legitimate) non-PTSD difficulties people can face, from tichtillomania and addictions to bereavement and body-image issues.
Trigger warnings or contact notes can't reasonably cover all these. Personally I think it's fair for students to ask for a general warning about detailed scenes of rape, and probably extreme violence (e.g. graphic torture) too. Beyond that, I'm sceptical - books are packed with situations that people might find triggering.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Part of my reaction above relates to things as discussed in this article
quote:
...students complained that he exposed them to ‘offensive’ texts written by Edward Said and Mark Twain,” he says. “That was enough to get me to comb through my syllabi and cut out anything I could see upsetting a coddled undergrad, texts ranging from Upton Sinclair to Maureen Tkacik...
I hold two adjunct academic appointments; the scariness of students and interns wanting to be warned or for certain things to be left out completely is a problem.
Yes, it is definitely a problem if lecturers are losing their positions over it. The students can't hold the lecturers responsible for 'triggering' them - as has been pointed out several times, it is impossible to predict all triggers.
Does this necessarily mean that incorporating trigger warnings must necessarily be a problem though? What about if it comes with the disclaimer that lecturers can't possibly predict all triggers, and can't be held responsible for symptoms of PTSD from previous trauma, and that of course students must seek professional help for PTSD, but that out of courtesy lecturers will warn for certain obvious potentially-distressing things?
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
That's ridiculous. On the other hand, is there any evidence that this is more a widespread problem than a panic by a few foolish university administrators who don't know how to support their own faculty?
Some. There seem to be a fair number of people who seem to believe that faculty and administrators have some magical ability to make campus a completely safe place in a dangerous world, and they're bringing lawsuits when things don't go their way.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
You do have a point. There is a general comment worth making about "litigation avoidance mode", which is that it tends to be about avoiding litigation, not about avoiding a loss.
Suing someone does not mean that you'll win the suit, and in fact some suits are simply ridiculous and as a matter of law could be beaten quite easily.
However, it's actually very difficult to prevent people from starting litigation, even litigation without any merit. Courts have power to do something against a serial pest who keeps bringing baseless claims, but that's about it.
And the problem is this doesn't gel well with fears about being taken to court. For a lot of organisations, the fear doesn't end up being about losing a particular court case, it ends up being a general fear about having a court case.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Part of my reaction above relates to things as discussed in this article
A different kind of warning... that website is giving my copy of Internet Explorer heart attacks for some reason.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
And this has what to do with trigger warnings? If this happens it will happen with or without trigger warnings. If there is some tidal cultural shift that makes this more likely to happen now than it was in the first 700ish years of the existence of universities, then trigger warnings are a symptom, not an etiology.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It's only a matter of time before some student does sue a university over some (possibly quite unforeseen by any reasonable person) allegedly offensive comment or incident in a classical text which allegedly traumatised them, at which point universities will go into litigation avoidance mode, with who knows what consequences for scholarship.
And this has what to do with trigger warnings?
The fact that there is now an assumption of a right to be warned, and of university authorities'
duty to provide that warning.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that such litigation has already been attempted.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
When I was in college sixty years ago, a history professor gave a detailed description of what was done to people who were drawn and quartered. I don't know what effect this had on any other student, but it disturbed me very much.
I couldn't stop thinking, not only of the people treated this way, but the people who did it. How could anyone stand to watch it?
I'm fairly sure the professor would never have said that if he had known the effect it would have on me, and possibly other students. I still haven't decided whether he was wrong to say that.
Moo
That sort of thing is not uncommon amongst secondary history teachers, because it has a certain appeal to the (especially male) adolescent mentality, but I am surprised to hear of a tertiary lecturer doing it.
I tried to avoid it because it trivialises and debases the subject.
It is sometimes necessary to mention things such as torture, but not to pruriently sensationalise them.
[ 05. June 2015, 05:03: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Trigger warnings can be triggering for old reactionaries.
Historically, it has been reactionaries who have supported limitations on the maximal diffusion of knowledge, and progressives who have opposed them.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
the self-defeating nature of your argument that I outlined above.
All you "outlined above" was a piece of sophistry.
The appropriate responses for a university to make are to abolish trigger warnings because they are dangerous and demeaning, and to make it clear that any litigation over their absence will be vigorously contested.
quote:
I don't think I'm the one begging the question.
People's complaints are evidence that they are upset for some reason, which could be purely ideological.
It is not evidence that they have been damaged.
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
OK, Kaplan. I'm done with this thread. You don't seem to think people's feelings are as important as imaginary lawsuits, and I'm clearly not going to persuade you otherwise.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And this has what to do with trigger warnings? If this happens it will happen with or without trigger warnings. If there is some tidal cultural shift that makes this more likely to happen now than it was in the first 700ish years of the existence of universities, then trigger warnings are a symptom, not an etiology.
These are my thoughts too. These are surely two different issues here - the issue of whether some kind of trigger warning can be helpful and constructively applied within certain settings, and the issue of people unrealistically expecting trigger warnings to protect them from ever being triggered, and suing when this doesn't happen. The latter shouldn't prevent us considering the former.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
I am thinking more about this:
quote:
Instead, as with other disabilities, a student diagnosed with PTSD should, in advance, agree on a plan for treatment with the relevant health advisors who, in some cases, may want to alert teachers to the presence of a trauma victim in their classroom. The Americans with Disabilities Act contains recommendations for reasonable accommodation to be made on an individual basis. This should be done without affecting other students’ exposure to material that has educational value.
Now, I'm in the UK, so can't speak for the US, but when I studied recently, I was part of a disability implementation group, to try to help the uni become more accessible in general to people with disabilities. And one thing we talked about a lot was the fact that things that help people with disabilities are often helpful for the entire class. And very helpful for people who, for one reason or another, haven't felt safe to disclose their disability.
We were talking about things like lecturers providing the powerpoint presentations to the class in advance of the lecture - the lecturers really didn't want to do that, often because (at their own admission!) they left their preparations to the night before, and so it was inconvenient to have to prepare powerpoints early. And they were resistent when I asked to have the powerpoints ahead of time, for disability reasons. But it turned out that they were supposed to do this, for inclusiveness, not just for me but for everyone.
And this makes sense to me - not just for the ease of people who have undisclosed disabilities, but also so that the disabled person doesn't feel too different or singled out. It can feel quite alienating to be treated like you're the different one - and lecturers can resent your 'difference' and see you as difficult! To give an example that it's perhaps easier to relate to, I imagine that people using wheelchairs feel more included when there are ramps built into a building, rather than having to request a ramp taken out especially for them whenever they want to access a building.
So, to me, the question of whether some kind of trigger warnings might be helpful and enable traumatised students to access a course more easily is surely the first thing to consider - rather than dismiss it out of hand because of possible consequences of students taking it to an extreme of expecting never to be triggered. Once that is established - if it does make the course more accessible - then it makes sense to go on to consider the parameters of such warnings, and how they could be incorporated into a class setting, in a helpful, non-intrusive way. Because, if they are helpful to traumatised people, then it will be helpful to have them for all students. Realistically, there will be students who have undiagnosed or undisclosed trauma.
But, if some students were for some reason absolutely opposed to trigger warnings, it would surely also be possible for students to choose whether they want trigger warnings or not. And potentially trigger warnings could come in email form to students who want them. It would be interesting to see how many students would choose to have them, and I imagine it would make students officially diagnosed with PTSD and registered with disability services feel less alone and different.
[ 05. June 2015, 08:18: Message edited by: Fineline ]
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There's probably a broader question about what people must be warned about, and what steps authorities must take to deal with them. In a regional park* here, a beach had some old but healthy trees some of which branches ran parallel to the ground and then gently soared up. All it took was one child climbing to significant height and falling, threatened legal action, for (a) signage that climbing was prohibitted, and when this didn't dissuade everyone, (b)the park sawed them all down, replanting little shrubs. Similar actions with fences for duck ponds where people used to sometimes sit on the shore and soak their feet have occurred when one person went swimming, ran into trouble and legal action was threatened. I have seen warnings about theatre productions as well: this may offend etc.
How much help with their own-selves, behaviour and responses do people really need? Can't we manage ourselves at all?
*regional park: owned and operated by a town or village
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
When I was a kid, I had a terrifying encounter with a large boa constrictor. I hate snakes. I hate pictures and videos of snakes. Snakeskin shoes and belts and purses freak me out. I loathe and despise people who keep snakes as pets. There have been many times when I would have really appreciated being told not to turn that page or watch that video, but I can't remember it ever getting a warning about snakes ahead. Except maybe when Sallah said, "Indy, why does the floor ... move?"
This week, there was a movie shoot at my workplace involving a huge number of WWII German and Japanese military vehicles, all swastikas and rising suns. There were signs posted at the perimeter of the shoot, and they covered up the swastikas with tape when they weren't filming.
I think it's a common concerns that creating any kind of code or policy for trigger warnings is that it is impossible to anticipate all of everybody's triggers. So the trigger warnings only get applied to the most common, or most disturbing, or awareness-of-the-day triggers, giving the impression that some triggers -- and by extension, the people that are triggered -- are more important, or more delicate, or more traumatized, or whatever, than others. Courtesy, awareness and compassion, however, help everybody.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Almost every mental health organisation who's said anything about pro-ana sites has come down on the side of 'nope'. Yes, it might be 'where they're at', but 'where they're at' is not a good place, and trigger warnings there merely reinforce the illusion of control over an illness which, according to some, has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness.
I was talking purely about contextual semantics, and using those sites as an illustrative example because I'm familiar with them. Feel free to substitute any other type of site for a particular group discussing a potentially sensitive area with a broadly shared perspective for the example I used.
[irrelevant aside] The negative or positive impact of specifically pro-ana sites as a whole is irrelevant to the point I was making, but FWIW, I have on occasions in the past, and possibly occasions again in the future, found them helpful in a strange and limited way. I know that's not what I'm supposed to say, and that they are deeply unhelpful or dangerous to most/many, including me sometimes, and are best avoided, but it happens to be true [/irrelevant aside]
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The point that we're all not really talking about is this: whether the reasonable use of trigger warnings for those genuinely suffering from a serious mental condition (PTSD) has been hijacked by ideologically-motivated activists in order to advance their socio-political agenda.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The point that we're all not really talking about is this: whether the reasonable use of trigger warnings for those genuinely suffering from a serious mental condition (PTSD) has been hijacked by ideologically-motivated activists in order to advance their socio-political agenda.
Well, I think the second argument might be more convincing if activists were lobbying for trigger-warnings to be placed on things that they dislike(eg. feminist demanding trigger-warnings on pornography). Then, you could argue that the trigger-warnings were really just a condemnation of the material in question, dressed up as therapeutic concern.
But, more often than not, I see trigger-warnings placed on the material by the writers or editors themselves, eg. anti-rape activists putting trigger-warnings on essays that contain descriptions of sexual assault. Obviously, they're not trying to condemn their own books.
Though I suppose the subtext of the warnings could be something like "Isn't it horrible that these types of things happen in the world?", rather than simply "Please be aware that these descriptions could be upsetting to you."
[ 06. June 2015, 16:01: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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