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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Parenting: a new religion?
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Lamb Chopped: quote:
Though for what it's worth, you'd have yet another issue confounding the result--which is, the theoretically helpless spouse would almost certainly urge the conscious one to save the child first. If I had to choose between saving husband or child, you can bet I'd go for the child, just as Mr. Lamb would. It's been clear since birth that either of us would sacrifice ourselves for him--and would expect the other spouse to uphold that choice.
So no, whom you save is not a decent proxy for whom you love most. If that last is even a sensible question.
Yes, this is what I was trying to explain with the 'who would you save in a fire' example.
We don't have a dog, but if we did I'd put the dog fairly high on the list of priorities. It would need two of us to rescue the gerbils, because the simplest way of rescuing them would be to pick up their gerbilarium and carry it out of the house and it's too heavy for one person to lift. So if the house really did catch fire, it's not likely we'd be able to rescue them even if there was time to get to them before they were overcome by smoke.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Never mind the "who do you love most?" question - which I agree is fairly pointless, love not being pie etc - "who would you save first?" isn't even a very good guide to how you act in every day life is it?
Non-parent here but I'd think that the kind of mundane decisions you have to make are much more a case-by-case basis. Your spouse wants to chat about their day and your child wants help with their homework - who do you spend your time with? Probably the child. Unless the child is perfectly capable of doing the homework and is using the request as a form of procrastination/attention seeking, whilst the spouse has just returned to work after a period of stress-related leave.
I dunno I'm just trying to make up plausible examples but I'm sure there's lots of times where the spouse comes first but has no bearing on the fact you'd still pull the kid out of the flames first.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
If there's a fire in my house, I'm counting on my dog to save me.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
Never mind the "who do you love most?" question - which I agree is fairly pointless, love not being pie etc - "who would you save first?" isn't even a very good guide to how you act in every day life is it?
Non-parent here but I'd think that the kind of mundane decisions you have to make are much more a case-by-case basis. Your spouse wants to chat about their day and your child wants help with their homework - who do you spend your time with? Probably the child. Unless the child is perfectly capable of doing the homework and is using the request as a form of procrastination/attention seeking, whilst the spouse has just returned to work after a period of stress-related leave.
I dunno I'm just trying to make up plausible examples but I'm sure there's lots of times where the spouse comes first but has no bearing on the fact you'd still pull the kid out of the flames first.
Non-parent or not, you're spot on. Life is full of these sorts of dilemmas, and framing it in black-and-white terms where you have to consistently choose the same way isn't realistic. Even the work/family balance doesn't always fall the same way, depending on the circumstances, the degree of urgency, the needs of the people involved. One needs to pay attention to the overall skew of it-- if you are always choosing work over family, always choosing kids over spouse-- or even vice versa on either of those-- you may have a problem you need to address. But generally, you will make imperfect decisions in the moment, based on limited information, to choose where you are most needed at that particular time.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
For me, parenting is like a dance. Sometimes a lot of contact time is involved, and sometimes I get to sit out. We do what is necessary for the better good of everyone - which is why we have gone from a retired couple back to a household of five as our eldest daughter and her two sons attempt to regroup their lives.
This was also the case for my parents-in-law, who had one week's notice to emigrate from one country to another with five children under the age of 7. They did this for the greater good of them all as a family - and it turned out to be a wise move. Their children have had opportunities they would never have had otherwise.
My children are not the centre of my universe, but they can certainly count on parental support if it is possible for us to help. Sometimes it is not possible to do what they ask of us. Sometimes I feel guilty about having to refuse them - but it also gives opportunity for them to have to sort out their own "burning" home issues.
There has never been in our household a policy of "whatever is best for our child we will provide" = rather it is "we will do the best we can with what we have". It is a practical rather than indulgent view, but does not mean we do not care.
I had not realised until this thread that this is a strange philosophy of parenting to many.
[ 05. June 2015, 22:34: Message edited by: Banner Lady ]
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I don't think it's a religion, more of a superstition - "If you do everything right, your child will grow up happy, healthy and successful" and conversely "If your child is badly behaved/not doing well at school/kidnapped and murdered it's BECAUSE YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG." It takes a very strong-minded person to resist this kind of pressure and avoid buying into the myth.
The trouble is, if you tried to do absolutely everything that the "experts" advise you to do your head would explode. Let them play outside - but keep them safe from paedophiles. Breast-feed them until they're two - but not in public, you shameless hussy. Don't feed them peanuts, they might collapse and die - no, wait, do feed them peanuts, it stops them developing the allergy. Stay at home to look after them! Go out to work! Force them to do their homework! Don't put too much pressure on them!
I could go on, but you get the picture.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I think we're talking about different things here if we are specifically talking about caring for healthy adult children. In my view, the responsibilities of parents to adult children is in no way the same as to minors.
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arse
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think we're talking about different things here if we are specifically talking about caring for healthy adult children. In my view, the responsibilities of parents to adult children is in no way the same as to minors.
Responsibilities, yes. Emotional pull/commitment, no. Which only complicates things as your adult child is (perhaps) out of the house, definitely out of your control/supervision, but no less out of your heart-- so the anxiety, prayer, temptation to meddle, only amplify. So, while the time demands are much less (finally done with the diaper changing/carpooling treadmill) in terms of the OP, it doesn't really change anything.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I think it is also important to go with your own parenting style. If it is not in you to brush your children's teeth for them until they are 15 (I had an aunt who did this to my cousins) then don't.
I am not a helicopter parent. I don't have time. (The great Jerry Pournelle said it: Ye flipping gods, I have books to write.) I know parents who phone their kids daily when they are away at college. I mentioned this to my son the other day (he is now 26, long graduated). He said he was really glad I didn't do that.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
mr cheesy: quote:
I think we're talking about different things here if we are specifically talking about caring for healthy adult children. In my view, the responsibilities of parents to adult children is in no way the same as to minors.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but most of the "advice" about parenting is directed at parents of minors.
Oh, and what cliffdweller said. Your child is still your child, however old s/he may be. My mother says the first fifty years are the worst ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I've been quite upfront with friends and relatives that parenting is not for me. At least one friend has responded with "Oh thank God! So many people seem to just have kids because it's what you do, even though they don't really want them, and the kids are a mess and I have to spend all day trying to teach them."
Here's where I think parenting has parallels with religion. Not so much that we worship our children as gods (although some parents probably do) but that parenting involves intense emotions and work and sacrifice. Sometimes the emotion is enough to carry you through, and sometimes it isn't, but crucially, you have to keep at it. I think there's quite a lot of pressure on mothers in particular, to find raising children endlessly fulfilling and amazing, and a lot of pressure not to admit it if they don't. (In much the same way that many churches want to hear all about how Jesus has transformed your life, but not about the "I'm having a terrible time, can't find God and am thinking of quitting this whole thing" times.)
Time and time again you'll hear "nobody ever regrets having children" and I always think "nobody ever admits it" because if they did they'd be seen as a monster. Not enjoying your children, not being bowled over by their smiles, seems to make you a bad person, even if you get up every day and make their breakfast, wash their clothes, take them to school, help with homework etc. You don't just have to put the work in. You have to love the fact that you have to do it. You don't have to love the work - in fact you can complain endlessly about how exhausted you are and how you have no time, as long as you finish up with "but then my toddler smiles at me and it's all worth it!" It comes down to the maternal bond, which is largely out of your control, and that seems unfair somehow. Someone who says "I feel no bond with my kids" but nonetheless does all the parental work at an exemplary level is likely to be lampooned more than someone who adores her children but is rubbish at looking after them.
And in a way that's what settled things for Mr Liopleurodon and myself. We realised that we'd probably be pretty good parents but we wouldn't enjoy it.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Liopleurodon quote:
Time and time again you'll hear "nobody ever regrets having children" and I always think "nobody ever admits it" because if they did they'd be seen as a monster.
That may well be true now but wasn't the case when I was growing up.
My own mother's approach to child-rearing could be summed up as preferably at arms-length and she was not unique: a cousin was referred to by both of his parents as 'our odd one' and 'our mistake' and another mate can recall being informed in no uncertain terms that they were a child too many.
Perhaps because the possibility of limiting family size was not such a sure-fire thing, but certainly plenty of my generation (late 1940s- 1950s) grew up knowing that our mother was less than thrilled with the arrival of at least one of her children.
As for parenting becoming a modern-day religion with the child's needs being put first at all times, it varies with the age of the child.
For the past 3 years I've been providing a home during the university vacations for one of my children's friends because their own parent refused to give him any sort of roof (not even the shed) after he finished his A levels and he has no other relatives who are prepared to help.
I also provide shelter for another of the children's friends whose parents won't house him during the long summer vacations if he can't pay rent of £15 a day, payable up-front. His grandparents and other relatives won't get involved because they say it is between him and his parents. So, he applies for work here and, if he can afford it, and if his parents find it convenient, he goes home for a week towards the end of the holidays. What happens when he is due to graduate next year God only knows.
I've now had a request from my sons to see if we can shoehorn in another of their mates because mother and her boyfriend have informed them that once they turn 21 (birthday is 14th July) they can either pay £90 a week to live at home or get out. The problem for me this time is the friend is female and so can't share a room with any of the other waifs-and-strays, so it looks like I'm going to lose my living room.
I'm not unique: a riding friend has an 18 year old friend of her daughter's camping out because her mother has thrown her out - parents are pillars of their local church and farming community - and a male friend of the other daughter living in a converted hay-loft because of similar problems to my first 'lodger'.
All of this doesn't come cheap at any level, but my friend and I are giving these children a base because someone has to and yet the obvious people - their parents - seem unwilling to do so. My growing band of 21 year old lodgers are lovely but at 60 I wasn't expecting to be running a de facto hostel for homeless twenty-somethings.
Yes, there are some parents out there for whom the arrival of a child means all other priorities and responsibilities end, but there are also parents who, to my mind, behave with breathtaking selfishness.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Yes. Thank you, l'organist, for being that place of refuge. If I could, I would send you a bundle of clean sheets and assorted snack foods to help outfit your ragtag extended family.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Kind thought, Cliffdweller.
My friends now refer to my waifs as my 'lost boys' - which I think is a pretty good description (although we'll have to change it as/when Cordelia joins us).
As for the practicalities: I've tons of bedding and other bits and pieces and for the rest - having been brought up in a parsonage I can do thrifty living.
Now my own two are about to graduate it will be slightly easier because I won't be spending out on two lots of university house shares as well as the roof here.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I have definitely noticed a change in parenting style over 3 generations. And I say that as a granddaughter, daughter, mother and grandmother; and also as a teacher over many years. Parents are much more closely involved in the details of their children's lives now - not least because of perceived child safety issues. This can lead to hothousing and lack of trust in adults in general.
I'm rather glad I grew up as a free range child, able to explore gradually further and further away from home, on my own, as I don't think I could have coped with anyone breathing down my neck.
When I first started teaching, parents let their children walk to school on their own and never set foot inside the classroom except on Parents' Day. Perhaps this was too little interest - it's difficult to know where a healthy balance might be between trusting professionals to get on with the job, and being overanxious that your child can't manage without you.
There is sometimes a tendency now to treat children as little princesses, which to me seems to be as extreme a response as that from a few generations ago where children were treated more as servants - the older ones staying home from school to help mother bring up the younger ones, and to keep the house clean.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Well, I recently got into trouble over this. It's time for university open days, so I'm tasked to do all the booking online (it's too stressful for Miss Tor do it herself because exams).
So I do. I line up all the ducks, three universities, three consecutive days, it's a stretch, but if one of us drives her from A to B to C, we can do it.
And inexplicably, I'm in the dog house for not booking "and guest" places. "Hang on," I say to Mrs Tor, "when we went to university open days, we went by train to all over the UK, by ourselves, had a look around, and came home, all without the aid of the internet and mobile phones. If I'm going with Miss Tor, then I'm kicking her out at the right place at the right time, then buggering off to find a decent museum or two. She can text me when she's done, and we'll drive to the next city."
But no. Both Mrs and Miss Tor look at me as if I'd suggested an afternoon's bear-baiting. When the hell did going to universities with your nearly-adult children become a 'thing'? And why didn't I get the memo?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ann
Curious
# 94
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Posted
My youngest is at uni and his elder sisters went to uni before. They were lucky that I slowed the car for them to get out before I went and did something else. The only time I went round with one of them was because they'd applied to my old uni and I wanted to see how much it had changed. (It had expanded quite a bit - where did that canal come from?)
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Ann
Posts: 3271 | From: IO 91 PI | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I showed my daughter how to use public transport the summer holiday before* and paid for the fares for her to go to the open days, alone. She was one of a handful of students who turned up independently, two or three each open day. She also found she took other students under her wing as she knew how to buy the local street maps and navigate herself across unknown cities.
Mostly it made her look good, but for the open day at one university, one of your more local ones, Doc Tor, she was furious because the useful information was there for parents only: she wasn't allowed in to the financial and practical talk and was expected to go to the talk about drinking places and clubbing, which as alcohol makes her really ill (another allergy) interested her not at all. She refused their offer.
* we went on a couple of walking holidays using public transport, moving between hostels that were closing down
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But no. Both Mrs and Miss Tor look at me as if I'd suggested an afternoon's bear-baiting. When the hell did going to universities with your nearly-adult children become a 'thing'? And why didn't I get the memo?
Search me. I'd have been mortified if I had shown up at a university open day trying to look all adult and capable (yeah, right!) with my parents in tow.
There appears to be a general insistence by "authority" - whether that be school, police, social services or whoever - that you should treat your children like the least capable children of their age (cf. numerous prosecutions, threats of same etc. for leaving perfectly happy children in the car for five minutes on a mild day, because "anything might happen to them"). If you're designing a children's programme at a museum, for example, it's not unreasonable to plan for the case that all the children you get are maximally irresponsible, but that seems like a poor idea when dealing with your own children, who you presumably know.
Eldest Cnihtlet is pretty sensible and responsible, and I have trusted her to be able to do all kinds of things by herself. There are one or two of her friends in whom I'd place similar trust, but only one or two. By comparison, Cnihtlet #2 is rather more, shall we say, impulse-led. He needs rather more specific instructions. He's the one who is likely to be found standing in a pile of broken something looking all surprised that gravity exists. It'll take a little longer before he's ready for quite the same degree of freedom.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I went round the University Open Days with elder child, but not with younger child, because she'd tagged along to a couple of her brother's visits and knew the ropes. A surprising amount of teens were there with both parents, flanking them protectively, one on each side.
Also, younger child had planned her University applications on the time-honoured method of getting good exam results at school, whilst elder child was hoping that a passionate commitment to his chosen subject and a winning smile might get him in. University visits aren't straightforward when you're trying to get in via self-belief and magic beans.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
'But will you love me tomorrow...?'
Unless things have changed in the two years since I bade HE teaching adieu, then in a few months' time should those same open-day parents want to talk to a lecturer about their offspring's academic performance, they'll quite properly be told to feck off. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
And not admitting an applicant to a talk on finance etc is bizarre.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
In 1987, my older daughter went alone to the University of Texas in Austin for freshman orientation. We were living in New Hampshire at the time.
We got her plane tickets and motel reservations. We told her that while she was on the campus she could talk to anyone she wanted to. Off campus, she should talk only to taxi drivers, restaurant waiters, and desk clerks at the motel. We told her to go straight to supper after checking into the motel. After supper she was to go to her motel room and make sure the door and windows were locked. She was to stay there until morning.
This worked out fine. She was probably nervous, but she managed everything just fine. The experience was good for her.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, I recently got into trouble over this. It's time for university open days, so I'm tasked to do all the booking online (it's too stressful for Miss Tor do it herself because exams).
So I do. I line up all the ducks, three universities, three consecutive days, it's a stretch, but if one of us drives her from A to B to C, we can do it.
And inexplicably, I'm in the dog house for not booking "and guest" places. "Hang on," I say to Mrs Tor, "when we went to university open days, we went by train to all over the UK, by ourselves, had a look around, and came home, all without the aid of the internet and mobile phones. If I'm going with Miss Tor, then I'm kicking her out at the right place at the right time, then buggering off to find a decent museum or two. She can text me when she's done, and we'll drive to the next city."
But no. Both Mrs and Miss Tor look at me as if I'd suggested an afternoon's bear-baiting. When the hell did going to universities with your nearly-adult children become a 'thing'? And why didn't I get the memo?
Sadly I think it a) things have changed over the last 20 years and b) there is a difference for young men and ladies.
From about 15/16, I used to travel every year more than 5 hours to go to camp on the train. Nothing bad happened.
But then, I'm not sure whether I'd want my daughter to do that. Even university campuses can be dangerous places, when we studied a girl was murdered on the campus..
I think the combination of unfamiliar places, not knowing anyone and silly behaviour by students makes this a worry. My teen is fairly sensible but she is quite small, and gets worried easily. Hopefully we'll be able to help he gently integrate into university..
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arse
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Maybe because of my inability to be in two places at once, but it never occurred to me to do the uni open-day thing with my children.
Sure, took them to the location, then had time for me. So looking at a 2 unis back home in Wales meant a chance to visit elderly relatives on one day, a day at the beach on the other. With two children looking at universities at the same time, the down-side was I seemed to spend a lot of time on motorways; but the plus side was being able to catch up with friends/godchildren I hadn't seen for ages.
Public transport wasn't an option because, IME, unless you live near a railway 'hub' (which we don't) you need a full day just to get to some places.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I went to Uni. when I was 17, so - assuming the Open Days were in the previous autumn - I was still 16 went to them by myself. Admittedly two of the places were pretty local (gettable-to by Underground), but I would never have thought of asking a parent to take me to any of them.
Nor, when I got to Uni., was I ever fetched and carried - except once or twice when one of my parents came to a choral concert at the end of term and then stayed the night in a hotel. Normally I went by train and luggage was collected and delivered by British Road Services.
Admittedly there was a "freshers' special train" from London at the beginning of my first year.
[ 18. June 2015, 12:31: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Admittedly there was a "freshers' special train" from London at the beginning of my first year.
Did it leave from Platform 9¾ ?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Admittedly there was a "freshers' special train" from London at the beginning of my first year.
Did it leave from Platform 9¾ ?
Wrong station, I'm afraid: it was Waterloo, not King's Cross. And instead of being a lovely steam train like this, it was a much more prosaic one, chartered by the University Students' Union.
[ 18. June 2015, 14:51: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I showed my daughter how to use public transport the summer holiday before ...
This is very good, but I'm slightly puzzled that by the time she got into the sixth form she didn't know how to use public transport anyway. Or were you way out in the sticks where there really wasn't anything available?
[ 18. June 2015, 14:59: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I showed my daughter how to use public transport the summer holiday before
I used to use a bus that went via the university of the West of England and was amazed to wirtness the following exchange between the drivfer a and new student:
What's this?
It's a bus ticket.
What do I do with it?
You hold it until you finish your journey and then you throw it away.
I suppose she had been ferried arounds in her parents' car to all those ballet lessons.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
You're almost certainly right.
But, if she came from London, she might not have been familiar with bus tickets as people have to use Oyster cards and the like.
And there used to be places where you just put your money in a fare box and no tickets were issued ... here in East of Greenwich, we have fare boxes with tickets.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I showed my daughter how to use public transport the summer holiday before ...
This is very good, but I'm slightly puzzled that by the time she got into the sixth form she didn't know how to use public transport anyway. Or were you way out in the sticks where there really wasn't anything available?
Well, not that it's any of your business, but there were a couple of complications. She was very ill for her GCSE and lower Sixth Form years, so although we'd been building independence from her arrival in secondary school, being ill meant she couldn't walk let alone travel independently for some years.
Secondly, we have buses and we just have London Underground locally. She was used to bussing herself to and from college independently, but she became ill before I felt she was old enough and sensible enough to travel independently on the tube, so she wasn't used to getting across London, finding a mainline station, the right platform and train to travel across country, nor changing mid-country onto branch lines.
This one wasn't helped by her applications being for distant universities as there was no way, no how she was applying for London universities and being expected to live at home (with several hours of commuting each day in the rush hour).
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
My father showed me how to use public transport when I was 12.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Son no. 1 started using public transport quite independently when he was 11, the second one took longer (age 14), when I said he really had to. I didn't get involved in university visits because I knew they'd have different ideas to me (have you seen what Cardiff streets look like on bin day?!).
Son no. 1 was told by his interviewing tutor that he was impressed that he'd travelled there alone (do parents normally even accompany their offspring to interviews?!) - and he received a very good offer.
I think what frightens me more is when parents never let their offspring out of their sight until they are 18, at which point they suddenly release them to backpack around obscure, isolated parts of the world. Woah!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You can't get judgemental about the public transport thing with any logic. I first took a bus at age nineteen or so (had no clue what I was doing, but figured it out) because public transport just wasn't a Thing where I was. And I didn't learn to work an elevator until roughly the same age. I was in Los Angeles County, for gosh sakes. Nothing out here had an elevator, nothing out here was more than a story or two (three if you're pushing it). Earthquakes.
On the other hand, I was damn good at lifeguarding.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
What's this?
It's a bus ticket.
What do I do with it?
You hold it until you finish your journey and then you throw it away.
This would be my husband! He never uses buses. He has just returned from cycling from Amsterdam to Saltzburg, but would never dream of catching a bus.
We all have different 'skills' - many need to be learned as adults. We can't prepare our children for every eventuality. The thing is to be sure they are independent and can think on their feet.
We live in a high crime area and my sons have both been threatened with knives, more than once. Luckily they can both run like the wind and extracted themselves that way. My youngest has taken up a self-defence martial art since (he says) he's slowed down sinnce he turned 25. Mind you, he has more bruises since he took it up than every before!
<edited becos aye cant speel>
[ 27. June 2015, 11:51: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
You can't get judgemental about the public transport thing with any logic.
I don't think anyone is being judgmental, only discussing by what age it is sensible to have introduced a son or daughter to a particular aspect of independent living. Which is not the same thing at all. For one family, being able to cook would take precedence over being able to navigate the bus system. But ultimately it's rather helpful to be able to do both by the time one leaves home.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
One of the most liberating things I ever did was during the first day of freshman orientation, before my parents had even left campus. They gave me a form to sign asking me if I wanted to waive my rights under FERPA to keep my university records private from my parents.
Checked every "I do not waive my rights" box I could find and signed it with a flourish. Not that I don't like my parents, but after nineteen years of living with parents who, working for the school system, knew every little detail about my day before I'd gotten home, it was good to know that I could control, with the law on my side, what they knew about my time at school.
Not that I didn't blather about it anyway, me and my honest mouth.
And for those of you who think knowing how to navigate public transit is something every adult should Just Know: the first time I ever had to pay for a bus ride was while traveling in Wales during my junior year abroad—I was 21 at the time. Grew up in a culture where everyone drove, got cars at 16, and only had to take public transit (mostly subways, which were pretty novel and a bit of a tourist attraction in their own right) when visiting other cities like DC or Boston. Frankly, up until the moment I was standing in Harlech trying to make a connection, my knowledge of the aorist in Attic Greek had been much more useful than how to navigate any kind of bus system.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I was just thinking that I grew up using London buses and used them by myself for school from the age of 11, but I wouldn't know how to use a London bus now.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
For one family, being able to cook would take precedence over being able to navigate the bus system. But ultimately it's rather helpful to be able to do both by the time one leaves home.
My no:1 priority was to teach them both to iron, aged twelve. After that I ironed nothing but my own essential work stuff. If they wanted their school uniforms ironed they did it themselves - if not they went to school in creased uniforms.
There are many lessons in this exercise it turns out.
They learned that Mum doesn't = servant.
They learned to iron.
They learned to choose if they wanted to look smart or not.
I learned to let go. As in not letting what they look like bother me.
I learned to let them make their own choices and mistakes. We don't learn by having stuff done for us. I meet too many children who can't do buttons and laces aged 10, never mind 5!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I was wiped out by chickenpox when my two were aged 7 and just-turned-5. My parents took the 5 year old away, but I had a couple of days when my 7 year old (off school with chickenpox) was fending for himself because I couldn't stand up.
I taught them both to cook a bit (beans on toast, scrambled egg on toast) very soon after that. They could draw up a shopping list, produce a three course meal, plus coffee, and wash up afterwards between them by the time they were 10 and 8.
OTOH, my son was 17 before he could tie his shoelaces. For so long as he could get away with velcro straps on his shoes, he just didn't see the point. Also, why bother learning to tie a tie when someone at the school bus stop will tie it for you?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My no:1 priority was to teach them both to iron, aged twelve. After that I ironed nothing but my own essential work stuff.
What is this "iron" of which you speak?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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