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Source: (consider it) Thread: Where are the limits?
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Okay, now here's a weirdness:
transabled people.

It's very much the thing to let people define themselves, whether that has to do with gender or orientation or what have you. But what about disabilities--is this crossing a line? I notice the article very carefully specifies that this is probably a "neurological issue" and not "mental illness" (as if the two never ever had anything to do with one another, under any circumstances).

The reason this is on my mind is because I've also seen cases where people attempted to choose their own ethnicity/racial designation, and got shot down by others who said they were being cultural imperialists.

So...

Are there any boundaries to what one is allowed to "identify as"? What, if anything, is right out? Must there be any evidence beyond self-assertion in cases of transability or transethnicity? And what about where the claimed identity results in possible financial gain? or problems for others (e.g. children, other dependents)?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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I read about that and think there are some very difficult issues here.

We would probably all agree that someone who believes themselves to be Julius Caesar probably needs some medical help - but it is hard to argue that someone who believes that their own arm is not a part of them and needs to be destroyed does not also need help. And then it isn't much of a step to make an argument that someone who wants to change something which is as much a part of them as their chromosomes or gender also needs such help. That all such things are strange neurological conditions or symptoms of deep mental illness.

I'm not really convinced this is a very useful way to think. For one thing, people do all kinds of things in other ways that damage their bodies (to take that example) such as smoking; or seem to be recklessly risking serious harm, such as rock-climbing without ropes. I don't see anyone arguing that these things are neurological conditions.

I can't say much more about people who seem to want to voluntarily make themselves disabled, other than to note it seems a very odd thing to do to me.

On the general point, I guess my thinking has evolved to imagining society as Pratchett did - a complex co-existence of people who understand life in very different ways, who hold very different values, who cannot help but misunderstand and be offended at other people's choices in the community. The question then is about what are shared values and how should society function for everyone.

On a bottom line, I guess I struggle with the idea that society should assist someone to make their physical body less usable. I don't know much about trans people, but I don't believe that most have modified their bodies to be less usable, just a different shape. So, for me, that's a difference.

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arse

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Felafool
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# 270

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I feel really uncomfortable with this, although I guess it is along the same lines as Oliver Sacks' "the man who mistook his wife for a hat" (and other case studies in that book.) The mind/body interface is no doubt a fascinating field for study.

Would it be tasteless to quote the old saw (pun intended):
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous" ?

I'll get my wife, I mean my hat and coat!

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Siegfried
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# 29

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If one goes through the surgery, a transman or transwoman isn't removing the capability to have sex, which is what the genitalia are there for. If you are having a leg or arm removed because you are "transabled", then you are removing the capability. Very different, IMO. But along the lines of those who try to argue that anorexia or bulimia are lifestyle choices, not disorders.

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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It's not about "identifying as" in an effort to be cool or something.

It's interesting that this issue seems to be getting some publicity right now. I'm not sure why. I first heard about it many years ago when (IMHO) Australia's finest TV interviewer did a show with three people missing a limb.

One had been born that way, one had lost the limb in an accident, and the third had deliberately had it removed.

It was of course, the third who was the most startling. He was startling to the other two interviewees!

But it was certainly instructive to hear him speak. From his description, his brain just refused to accept that this limb was supposed to be there. Which strikes me as perfectly plausible given what is known about the "body map" that the brain holds, and how it's flexible. For whatever reason, his brain didn't have a place for that limb.

And so he'd done all sorts of things to try to mutilate himself, to force doctors to amputate it. It was all rather icky.

One of the key things, though, was that it seemed that the presence of the limb was wrecking his psychological health. He was a much happier person without it. That might be bizarre to most people, but it was how his brain worked.

I think part of the difficulty with situations where the brain doesn't match the body - whether it's transabled or transgendered we're talking about - is that we don't know how to change the brain. And so if we want to resolve the mismatch, we currently have no choice but to change the body.

Maybe one day that won't be the only available option. But then, if we have the ability to change the brain to resolve these situations, it's going to become about the ethics of doing so.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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This is a very complex area, not least involving the meaning of "disability" (and keeping it distinct from "impairment").

I'd just like to chip in at this stage that the transabled have always been with us. For a whole ton of reasons, there have been people through history who have simply and perhaps paradoxically found it easier to live as disabled. As a trivial example, only the other day I watched an episode of Doctor Who where an older man became a wheelchair user as a way of holding on to the devotion of his beautiful wife. There are examples of nineteenth century fiction where people (often young women) "take to their beds" and adopt the "sick role" for the rest of their lives. In one of Pat Barker's First World War novels there's a soldier whose subconscious mind refuses to "map" one of his legs in an attempt to keep him out of the war - the leg manifests as paralysed.

And when Jesus says to the man at the pool, "Do you want to be healed?" - I wonder what the backstory to that is?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Must there be any evidence beyond self-assertion in cases of transability or transethnicity?

In the case of transethnicity, many people on the Ship have affirmed already that race is difficult to define biologically. However, I believe that it can be defined socially. For example, black Brazilians accept someone as being black if two conditions are fulfilled: a) the person self-identifies as black b) the black community accepts this person as being black. This means that you can't simply assert yourself as being from a certain race. You need to be accepted by people from that race.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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PS I self-identify as being obscenely rich. Reality just needs to catch up with that.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
This means that you can't simply assert yourself as being from a certain race. You need to be accepted by people from that race.

This isn't how gender is dealt with, though. Our trans activist friends would have all kinds of fits if you tried to insist that a self-identified woman had to be accepted as female by some community of women in order to count as a woman.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
This means that you can't simply assert yourself as being from a certain race. You need to be accepted by people from that race.

This makes sense, and yet it causes no end of tangles if we follow it out. Because, of course, just upthread we've got examples of disabled people being at least startled (if not un-accepting) of a transabled person, and we all know about the controversy over transsexuals being accepted or not by cisgendered people.

It's all very confusing and difficult.

Then there's the question of what you do if SOME people of that ethnicity accept you while others don't. For example, I have a reasonable claim to Cherokee ethnicity (though a minor one) but one major group won't accept that formally due to lack of paperwork. Another group WILL accept that. And to be sure, my own relatives accept that, as they are the source of my claim.

I believe a similar problem crops up with regard to the question of who is a Jew and who is not. My brother is a convert--but as he did not convert to Orthodoxy, he is regarded as no such thing by a great many people.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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LC and LC, I agree with both of you. I just wanted to add another element to the discussion, I didn't say it was going to make it any easier [Biased]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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This sounds frankly bizarre, and I doubt we'll ever see it as anything other than a pathology. It is so culturally bound. Many cultures would historically allow people with various disabilities to die.

I think it shyould be considered a delusion and to play into it is to be co-dependent. Because these involve direct physical self-harm, I cannot see how to consider this as other than a disorder.

I have a copy of DSM-5. The OP article has it wrong here: "Transability is also known as Body Integrity Identity Disorder, which was only just added to the “emerging measures and models” appendix section of the DSM-5 in 2013". It is not included in the 2013 DSM-5 and is not emerging anywhere. "Body Dismorphic Disorder" is, and refers only to the Body Integrity Identity Disorder in the context of of "apotemnophilia" which is the desire to have a limb amputated and specifically says "it is not a DSM-5 disorder" (p 247). It's in the obsessive compulsive chapter.

I'm thinking that it is possible fetishize nearly anything and wonder what deep psychological needs deliberate damage (or desire to damage) the body meets. Something deeply repressed I suppose.

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\_(ツ)_/

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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My worry, based on having worked with people who have body dysmorphia - but not to this extent - is that the desired mutilation may not actually relieve the psychological distress in the long term. In the same way, someone with anorexia nervosa may believe they will be happy if they only reach x weight - but once there still feel they are fat and need to lose weight.

In effect it is an invisible disability, until such time as the person makes it visible.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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itsarumdo
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# 18174

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How did you get #1984?

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
In one of Pat Barker's First World War novels there's a soldier whose subconscious mind refuses to "map" one of his legs in an attempt to keep him out of the war - the leg manifests as paralysed.

This example appears similar to the 'psychological blindness' we used to see in the ophthalmic clinic. The patient would often have experienced trauma and would lose vision in one or both eyes, full or partial defect, but have no ophthalmic or neurological disorder. Field loss would be consistently replicable in electronic field tests; they literally could not see but there was nothing clinically wrong with them. The visual defect was psychological but very real. They often had an improvement over time, especially after a court case was settled from an accident or assault and they had closure.
There is a theory that some cases of visually impaired people 'miraculously' gaining their vision back after having an accident are actually people with psychological blindness.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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It is sometimes called functional or conversion disorder. What Freud labelled as hysteria. It is a genuine psychological condition that can sometimes be remediated with appropriate interventions. However, that is somewhat different to either body dysmorphic disorder or the self-reported experiences of folk who wish to amputate limbs.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by itsarumdo:
How did you get #1984?

Bought it in an auction held to celebrate the Ship's 10,000th registered poster. Hence themed identity.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Porridge
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# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
If one goes through the surgery, a transman or transwoman isn't removing the capability to have sex, which is what the genitalia are there for. If you are having a leg or arm removed because you are "transabled", then you are removing the capability. Very different, IMO. But along the lines of those who try to argue that anorexia or bulimia are lifestyle choices, not disorders.

This, but also this: While the transperson can still have sex, what usually is lost (AIUI, perhaps incorrectly) is the ability to procreate as/in (we may need some new terminology here) the acquired gender -- which, after all is what the ability to have sex is for (biologically speaking; emotionally there are other needs/reasons).

As an added complication:

While I have met a few, and befriended one, transgender person, a whole host of doubts has arisen for me regarding the episode of Bruce-now-Caitlin Jenner. I'd like to be wrong, but in her/his specific case, I cannot help wondering if there's pathology relating not to a brain/body disconnect concerning gender identity, but to being in the public eye.

I'm not claiming this is the case for transgender folks generally, just in this particular case.

But back to transability: I have a hard time regarding this as anything but pathological. Yes, we do other things that damage bodies, but most of these are at least potentially alterable after the fact. Amputation, not so much.

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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
My worry, based on having worked with people who have body dysmorphia - but not to this extent - is that the desired mutilation may not actually relieve the psychological distress in the long term. In the same way, someone with anorexia nervosa may believe they will be happy if they only reach x weight - but once there still feel they are fat and need to lose weight. ...

I suspect there's a lot of truth in that. It makes me wonder whether an surgeon asked to carry out such an operation should consider whether it is compatible with the hippocratic oath - on a presumption against rather than in favour.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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It probably depends on causation, and there is basically very little evidence given the rarity of the condition.

If it is analogous to conversion disorder, or body dysmorphic disorder - the desired mutilation will probably not resolve the distress. And talking therapy type treatments may help.

If it is a discrete problem with the body map in the parietal lobe of the brain mutilation may fix the distress. But I would hope we might then want to look at how the neuroplastisty of the brain could be used to treat - rather than resorting to amputation. For example, there is a lot of research going on now in helping amputees to experience sensation from prosthetics that ought to have crossover potential.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Fineline
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# 12143

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Something I wonder when I read about these cases is whether it might be a case of people who are suffering emotionally somehow wanting to make their pain tangible, to show others they are suffering. A subconscious desire to externalise and thus somehow more easily conceptualise and make real an inner pain which feels disabling.
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irish_lord99
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# 16250

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
PS I self-identify as being obscenely rich. Reality just needs to catch up with that.

[Killing me] [Overused]

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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I've done a bit of reading about this in my travels through the booky world - this book does a good compare-and-contrast as to why body dysmorphic disorder is different from body integrity identity disorder.

People with BDD tend to find that no amount of intervention really helps in the long run, even if it gives them a short term relief. So Mr. A thinks that he has disgusting scars on his very normal skin and spends all his money trying to "fix" a problem that only he can see. Ultimately his efforts only reinforce the problem and any relief is very shortlived. He'd be happier with some meds and some CBT to work through his anxiety.

Mr B, by contrast, believes that his left leg isn't part of him and wants to have it removed. It's not that he wants to be disabled, as such, he just doesn't want this leg, and disability is a price he's prepared to pay in order to be rid of it. It's probably caused by some kind of failure in the brain to map out all the bits that are part of the body. So Mr B feels as though he's using his body and then carting around a leg that isn't his - maybe a corpse leg, or someone else's leg.

Unlike BDD, though, when people with BIID do manage to lose the body part that they feel isn't really theirs, the evidence is that the distress usually goes away and they get on with their lives. In this respect it is a bit like transgender people, who go through a transition and generally feel much better for it.

I think in this kind of situation the important thing is to move away from personal instinctive "ick" reactions and look at the evidence. The reason why the (western) world has (mostly) stopped trying to "fix" gay people is that the evidence was there and clear - trying to turn gay people straight doesn't work and makes people more miserable and messed up. Accepting gay people, on the other hand, leads to much better outcomes. Likewise with transgender people there is ultimately a choice to make which often comes down to which outcome leads to the happiest person at the end.

I am open to the idea that sometimes, what society deems the "obvious" correct outcome may not be right for the individual. With transgender people, the suicide rate of those who are unable to transition is appallingly high. Those who have transitioned usually say that the peace of mind of being true to who they really feel they are is worth the (not inconsiderable) crap that they have to go through as a transgender person. Likewise with gay people who don't find acceptance.

So, is it possible that the best course of treatment for Mr. B is amputating that leg? I think it is (possible, I mean). But whether or not it is depends on the evidence. What are the outcomes for amputating vs not amputating? What is the level of distress? Are there any other treatments that can ease this distress? What are the possible complications of surgery? What level of risk is there that he'll do it himself with a chainsaw if a surgeon doesn't do it? These are the questions that need to be asked. It may be that I'm wrong in my initial reading about the condition, and that amputating ultimately increases the distress and makes the problem worse - as with scratching an itch/cosmetic surgery on someone with BDD. But those are the questions. People wrestling with this issue need to ask these questions, and they need to talk to people with this condition, and they need to LISTEN and take their feelings seriously.

In a sense, I actually feel a bit odd about even involving myself in this discussion because really - who the hell cares what I think? This isn't about me. I have no idea why someone would want to lose a leg. But that's a very bad place to start from. We (societal "we") have done a tremendous disservice to people by saying things like "I certainly wouldn't want to have my penis removed. That's just weird and wrong" or "it's not so very difficult to be attracted to men! What's your problem?" And then we wander off, feeling better than that person over there, who still has to somehow live their life with the problems that they have.

Someone who wants to have his leg destroyed by a train rather than living with it feels very strongly about this. He's very distressed about this. That is where you start. From there you consider things that could happen. Then you look at the evidence (if any exists) for what has happened to people like Mr B in each of these courses of action. Then the people directly involved (Mr B, his family, his shrink, a surgeon) can make a decision and hope it's the best thing to do.

Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I think one obvious and very important issue, is how you tell the difference between the two groups - when you are the person deciding whether to agree to give surgery. Both groups of people will tell you that the surgery is what they really really need to be happy, and they will eb sure they are right.

I also think that if removing the leg would work, fixing the brain's body map would also work - if that is actually the cause.

A cat or mri study should be able to test the causal hypothesis relatively easily. And there are non-invasive ways of influence the body map in the brain - such as transcranial magnetic stimulation, whose side effects are vastly less dramatic than amputation that should at least be tried.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Certainly we should do what we can to alleviate distress. But does that mean that we have to actually agree with the person that his version of reality is correct? For example, the person who believes he is lugging around someone else's leg, or a corpse/alien leg--he's in very real distress, and we need to care for him. But I can't see going so far as to say, "Yes, that really IS an alien leg" when it is not.

It's partly on my mind because of having to deal with people--for example, who have severe paranoid schizophrenia--who insist that they are utterly healthy, happy, and well, and it's the rest of the world that is screwed up. Meanwhile they are sitting in their own feces with infected sores on their legs and feet, on the point of passing out from malnutrition (Yes--real case).

That's his reality. And it certainly isn't his fault that he can't recognize his problem (it tends to go with the illness, a symptom called anosognosia). But I can't bring myself to agree with him, or to leave him in those straits, even though he's happy that way.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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If there are ways to ease the distress and incorporate the limb back into the person's sense of their own body that don't involve surgery that's absolutely a win-win scenario. Neurological problems can be difficult to fix though.

This reminds me of that condition (I forget what it's called) in which someone can become convinced that a person in their life (a spouse, a sibling etc) is not really that person but an imposter who just looks exactly like them. I believe it's something to do with brain damage that cuts off the connections between facial recognition and emotional recognition. "She looks like my wife, but I don't feel like she is my wife" somehow seems similar to "that looks like it should be my arm, but I don't feel that it is my arm." Trouble is that if it is like that, it may be quite a persistent problem and it may be difficult to change it. If BIDD stems from a loose connection in the brain somewhere (and that seems quite plausible) how do we go about fixing it?

There might be problems distinguishing between BDD and BIID but as far as I understand it, they usually present in quite different ways. "There's something wrong with me and I'm hideous and it needs fixing with cosmetic surgery" is different from "this body part doesn't belong to me and needs to be removed, even if it's disabling."

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:

Someone who wants to have his leg destroyed by a train rather than living with it feels very strongly about this. He's very distressed about this. That is where you start. From there you consider things that could happen. Then you look at the evidence (if any exists) for what has happened to people like Mr B in each of these courses of action. Then the people directly involved (Mr B, his family, his shrink, a surgeon) can make a decision and hope it's the best thing to do.

I don't disagree in principle, but isn't the issue that in order to generate that evidence, you first have to chop a leg off a statistically significant number of people, without knowing whether it will work or not?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Certainly we should do what we can to alleviate distress. But does that mean that we have to actually agree with the person that his version of reality is correct?...

No. I do not think we either do, or should. Some versions of reality are truer than others. However sad, if a person is insistent in believing something that is self-evidently both false and detrimental to them, it is not ethical that we should connive with this, that others should tell us we ought to or that they should get away with insisting that they have a right that we humour them.

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Lamb Chopped
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I agree. And that's the rub--because my idea of where to draw the line isn't likely to match yours or anybody else's. And yet a line must be drawn, at least if you're a doctor or social worker or family member who is caring for a person who defines his reality differently from most people.

Alzheimer's is another case where this can happen. [Frown]

What's really nasty, though, is that there seems to be no clear stopping place between currently accepted ideas of self-determination and the kind of things pretty much everybody thinks is beyond the pale. It's not at all clear, for instance, that removing a healthy and functioning penis or breast is different from removing a hand or foot. In either case one could argue that the balance of the person's mind was affected, and that the self-image should be treated and not the body. But where then should we stop? A finger, a hand, a leg, all four limbs? Does it matter if it is a matter of gender vs. a matter of "this just doesn't feel right for non-gendered reasons"?

Bleah. I'm so glad I'm not a legislator.

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Doublethink.
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There is a subset of these people who seek not amputation, but paralysis - does anyone think it would be reasonable to offer that as a surgical intervention ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
There is a subset of these people who seek not amputation, but paralysis - does anyone think it would be reasonable to offer that as a surgical intervention ?

This feels like a slippery slope argument.

But it isn't. Because myself and, I think, Liopleurodon, are arguing from a perspective about a person's mental map of their body (we appear to have very similar thoughts on this, with Liopleurodon's being expressed more extensively).

A desire for paralysis has something to do with the function of your body parts, not to do with their existence. I have no idea what the origin of such a desire would be. It would certainly not originate from the same 'body map' cause as the desire to amputate a limb.

Describing them as "a subset of these people" feels like the same kind of error that leads to homosexuals and transgender people being lumped together when the issues of sexuality and gender identity are in fact fundamentally different.

[ 11. June 2015, 10:56: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Again that depends on your understanding of the causal mechanism. Currently people who want transection of the spinal cord, have been considered to be suffering from the same kind of experience as people who want amputation.

If you felt the lower half of your body was not your own, due to mental map dysfunction, but you didn't want to die - then you couldn't really ask someone to cut it off because that would be lethal. Severing the nerve would mean you no longer experienced sensation from that part of the body - a sensation you had previously been experiencing as intrusive and unpleasant.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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orfeo

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# 13878

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Well, yes it does depend on my understanding of the causal mechanism. That's exactly what I'm saying.

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Porridge
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It strikes me that "correcting" the mental body map -- assuming we could pull that off -- might not appeal to someone who experiences this difficulty.

If my perceptions tell me "This left leg is not mine, is not part of 'me,' and I want it removed because dealing with its sensations and presence is intrusive and distressing," and someone proposes that, instead of amputation, we change my body map in ways that make me feel this loathsome thing IS part of me and 'right' and acceptable, I wonder how many 'takers' we'd get for such a proposition.

How do you persuade someone to want something (again, assuming we could do this) they do not want to such an extent they'd be willing to undergo surgery and permanent disability to rid themselves of it?

[ 11. June 2015, 12:17: Message edited by: Porridge ]

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, yes it does depend on my understanding of the causal mechanism. That's exactly what I'm saying.

And I am querying your assumption that it couldn't have the same causal mechanism - hence my speculation about how they could be the same.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Porridge, I might want my arm amputated if it caused me constant pain and nausea - if you offered me away of making that go away, I'd probably be willing to try it before cutting it off.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Of course -- but AIUI, some people regard the "alien" body part with loathing, rather than experiencing the kinds of symptoms you mention.

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Enoch
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If you, and virtually everyone else, consider that X is deluded in a way that is seriously detrimental to their well-being, how can it be ethical to humour their delusion by carrying out a destructive operation to make their body fit the delusion, rather than by trying to win them away from the delusion?

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Porridge
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# 15405

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We do, after all, try to dissuade people from suicide, given the opportunity. An individual may be convinced that his life is worthless, that he's a burden to others, that the future holds only more of the same, but we don't hand him the gun or the noose or the pills and say, well, then, I guess you'd better go ahead and kill yourself.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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The point about suicide is taken. Except that legalisation of assisting suicide appears to be a trend.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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That's what worries me. As a culture, we seem to be heading in the direction of "whatever floats your boat, we won't interfere or even tell you not to," and in a world that includes mental illness, wrong perceptions, confusion, misunderstanding, and dementia, that seems like the highway to hell.

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Jack o' the Green
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# 11091

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
That's what worries me. As a culture, we seem to be heading in the direction of "whatever floats your boat, we won't interfere or even tell you not to," and in a world that includes mental illness, wrong perceptions, confusion, misunderstanding, and dementia, that seems like the highway to hell.

In the UK, there is the Mental Capacity Act which provides a legal framework for situation specific decisions and whether someone has the mental capacity to make that decision. Whatever floats your boat wouldn't be considered reason enough to judge someone competent to make a particular decision.
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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, yes it does depend on my understanding of the causal mechanism. That's exactly what I'm saying.

And I am querying your assumption that it couldn't have the same causal mechanism - hence my speculation about how they could be the same.
But what's the purpose of the speculation?

Your question was about whether anyone would accept paralysis as an outcome for "some of these people". I expressed caution against this result because I don't accept that the causal mechanism is the same. Why would you want me to accept that the causal mechanism is the same, so that I would then be forced to say "well yes, logically I would support paralysis?"

That seems a very odd line to take.

[ 11. June 2015, 22:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
It strikes me that "correcting" the mental body map -- assuming we could pull that off -- might not appeal to someone who experiences this difficulty.

If my perceptions tell me "This left leg is not mine, is not part of 'me,' and I want it removed because dealing with its sensations and presence is intrusive and distressing," and someone proposes that, instead of amputation, we change my body map in ways that make me feel this loathsome thing IS part of me and 'right' and acceptable, I wonder how many 'takers' we'd get for such a proposition.

How do you persuade someone to want something (again, assuming we could do this) they do not want to such an extent they'd be willing to undergo surgery and permanent disability to rid themselves of it?

Well this is pretty much what I was referring to earlier in the thread, when I observed that (1) at the moment we alter the body to resolve the body/brain conflict because we don't have the ability to alter the brain, and (2) if we did have the ability to alter the brain (which might well happen in the future), then it becomes about the ethical issues of doing so.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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That sort of hemi-neglect happens with some strokes, and can be treated to a degree. The wikipedia article is a basic intro, but focal brain lesions can cause less than full one-sided loss of body part awareness for example, it is possible to have an arm that the patient doesn't recognise as belonging to them.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:
In the UK, there is the Mental Capacity Act which provides a legal framework for situation specific decisions and whether someone has the mental capacity to make that decision. Whatever floats your boat wouldn't be considered reason enough to judge someone competent to make a particular decision.

Not yet, it wouldn't be. My point was that we seem to be headed in roughly that direction.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Okay, though we've been focusing mainly on the body modification stuff when it comes to identity, here's the other side of it in action: What happens if someone claims to be of a race they weren't born into?

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Enoch
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This reminds me of the old South Africa or Nazi Germany.

Does it make a difference which race you're claiming to be? Is it all right to try to pass for white, or Aryan but different if you try to pass for black, Jewish or another group that has been disadvantaged?

Or am I reading in something from a different culture?

Do we regard it as wicked to try to pass for the perceived higher status group if you're not? Is there a difference between trying to pass yourself for a different race, and just trying to give the impression you come from a higher class than you do, like Hyacinth Bucket?

Possibly interesting question also - is the lady genuinely not black at all, or have her family been passing for white and feel themselves threatened by her not doing?

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

Possibly interesting question also - is the lady genuinely not black at all, or have her family been passing for white and feel themselves threatened by her not doing?

Her parents claim to be of mixed European heritage. They look like ordinary white Europeans. The lady herself, in childhood photos, is pale-skinned and blonde. In a wedding photo (from 2000) she appears as a pale-skinned blonde. Her now ex-husband is black.

It's clear that her "natural" tight curls are anything but, and that her complexion owes more to the tanning booth and the makeup pot than to her DNA.

Is it OK? Well, that rather depends, I think. I'm not black, so it's not my identity she's claiming, and perhaps not my place to judge. I have a few thoughts, though:

1. Lots of Americans claim to be Irish. Usually, this means something along the lines of "my great grandmother came from Ireland" although sometimes it means "I quite like Guinness". My actual Irish friends find this either amusing or silly, but aren't offended by it. They don't think of these Americans as Irish, though. YMMV, and of course we have several Irish shipmates who post regularly.

2. If she's trying to obtain an advantage by claiming blackness (eg. for preferential treatment due to hiring quotas, minority scholarships at universities and so on) then it's definitely problematic - she has all the relative privilege of a white person, and it would be quite wrong for her to take a spot away from an actual black person.

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Belle Ringer
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Would be nice if we could convince the affected people that it's OK or even normal to have someone else's arm, or a corpse leg. Hey, that's life, and look at what the not you thing does for you - lets you walk and run, do two-handed chores. Most of us are grateful for the help of the alien part, why can't you be grateful?


What I'm reacting to here is - if one of your legs is not yours, why is that a problem instead
of a gift to appreciate? But then, I've not had that sensation.

The people I know who wanted to be disabled, there was a functional reason, not a dislike of that body part. One shot his foot to be too disabled to stay in the army in a war zone, preferring disability to death. Another avoided post-stroke exercises so she could avoid recovering enough to work, gaining a retirement disability income and freedom to spend her days enjoying her grandkids instead of returning to a job she hated. Not at all the same thing the article is about.

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