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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mixed Marriages
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I have just finished Vera Brittain’s Testament Of Youth, which I had known about forever, but was only finally prompted to read by watching the current film adaptation of it
The book finishes with the marriage of Brittain, an atheist, to George Catlin, a Roman Catholic.
I don’t know much more about Brittain than what I have read on Wikipedia, but I gather from her comments about it in her book (written after she had children) that the marriage was quite a happy one, and it got me thinking about the issue of cross-faith marriages and partnerships, particularly between Christians and non-Christians (and yes, I know the term “non-Christian” is deplored by some, but it is just too bloody convenient to abandon).
In my evangelical milieu, the marriage of Christian believers to unbelievers has always been condemned on both biblical and commonsense grounds, and I have to say that I struggle to think of any such unions about which I know, that have worked out in practice.
You don’t hear it so much these days, but decades ago there used to be warnings to young evangelical women not to marry a non-Christian or Roman Catholic (sometimes treated as indistinguishable) in the hope of converting him.
Any thoughts on the matter?
Does anyone know of marriages/partnerships between atheists/agnostics and religious believers (not necessarily Christians) which have worked well?
If so, what was or were the necessary ingredient(s)?
What about marriages/partnerships across two religions, eg a Muslim to a Hindu?
Or is religion just one of the myriad unpredictables in a marriage relationship, and not necessarily the most important (I think of marriages between evangelicals of different ethnicities which have foundered on differing cultural expectations)?
[ 08. June 2015, 02:08: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I think you should read 1 Corinthians 7:13 ff
13And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace...
As a former pastor I knew of many spouses who were "yoked" with non believers--or members of a different religion. I can say some were actually great couples. Myself, though, I am very glad when I proposed to my wife, she agreed to take religious instuction and become Christian. Her faith has boosted me in times of trial.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I think you should read 1 Corinthians 7:13 ff
13And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace...
I am familiar with this passage, but I'm still not sure what it means!
quote:
Myself, though, I am very glad when I proposed to my wife, she agreed to take religious instuction and become Christian.
Was that a condition?
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Touching this with a ten foot pole is probably a bad idea, but it's nearly midnight, and an urge to live dangerously has struck me....
The primary (biggest, most common, most obvious) problem with this sort of mixed marriage is the same as with any sort of mixed marriage--that is, the cultural gap between you is very likely to create both misunderstanding and conflict. I know this from experience of a racially/ethnically/linguistically mixed marriage (with 20 years between us, forsooth!). In fact, the one thing we DID have going for us was a shared faith. But AFAIR something like 80% of ethnically mixed marriages fail. We are an outlier at nearly 30 years of marriage.
The problem is that your basic view of the world and everything is fundamentally different. If it weren't, it would not be a true mixed marriage of any sort. And staying together when your worldview is screaming suspicion and distrust of something the other person has just done is hella difficult.
Minor stupid example from last week: Our host congregation has a "comfort dog" ministry, which basically means they have a dog trained to let grieving people pet him and pet him and pet pet pet the wazoo out of him, without getting fed up and walking away. Or snarling. They show up at sites of tragedies, such as school shootings or tornado-hit spots. Which is good and fine.
Well, anyway, some bright spark decided to throw the dog a birthday party. At church. On Pentecost, no less (yes, I'll shut up now). And they chose the congregational coffee and doughnut hour to do this, which allowed our Vietnamese members to witness a lot of grown-ass adults singing "Happy birthday to you" to a DOG.
Keep in mind that our members came here as refugees from a war-torn country where dogs were okay, but still played a significant role as garbage disposers (including eating shit) and were occasionally eaten themselves. Add to that a heartfelt belief that rich Western countries squander desperately needed resources on pets, leaving needy people out in the cold.
As a result, their reaction was rather like what we would have to someone singing happy birthday to ... an earthworm? A coyote? An idol? There were elements of all three.
Mr. Lamb, to his credit, came and asked me about it before storming out of the church or pulling some other over-the-top stunt. He said (very hesitantly and with great fear of offending me) "Was that... really real, is that something your culture thinks is okay?"
And I in turn figured out where he was coming from worldview-wise and managed to explain it. Well, as much as it could be explained. But at least he doesn't think we're the devil incarnate, worshipping a dog as an idol or something.
And it's the little crap like that which gets you in trouble, marriage-wise. When we first knew each other, Mr. Lamb had a three-day hissy fit (make that "towering rage") because he went to church with me and for the first time ever saw an Ash Wednesday service with ashes imposed. He was totally convinced we were an evil tree-worshipping cult. I couldn't get him to climb down out of his tree (oops) for days. All over a smudge of ashes.
In my case it was freaking bloody silverware that sent me over the edge--that and the cavalier (in my eyes, anyway) way my Vietnamese guests treated the fridge. I just know Mr. Lamb was itching to sedate me. Probably with a hammer to the head, the way I was freaking out.
So the religiously-mixed marriage is going to run into just these stupid little worldview collisions--along with the not-so-stupid major worldview collisions that come when your view of the universe is based on very different foundations. And you can plan somewhat for the major obvious worldview collisions (should we baptize the kids? Which church, if any? etc.) But you can't plan for things like OMG-she-put-ashes-on-her-forehead-what's-THAT-get-away-SATAN! You need something pretty strong to pull you together when that stuff is coming down.
For the two of us, it was shared faith in Christ, which was fundamentally the same in spite of ashes. But I don't know what a truly religiously-mixed marriage would use. No doubt others will be along to say.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
My family has had generations of mixed faith marriages. Most of them didn't work that well. On the other hand the same people may have done other same-faith marriages and they didn't work all that well either.
New York City has a long tradition of mixed faith marriages e.g. "Abie's Irish Rose", A lot of the strains of different cultures are muted when you're all living together on top of each other and sharing traditions.
And yes, there are mixed marriages that work quite well. There's often an issue over how the children will be raised. The classic pattern is that couples who were disinherited by their parents for marrying out of the faith often have a reconciliation when the parents realize there are grandchildren to spoil.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
and the cavalier (in my eyes, anyway) way my Vietnamese guests treated the fridge.
Okay. I'll ask.
Just what were they doing to the fridge?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
More mixed marriages than not in my family to the point where it seems the norm. The important bits seem to be shared values and being both respectful and supportive of whatever the other finds life-giving within that context. I am an Anglican priest. I don't need Mr M to come to church with me. He doesn't need me to go to football games with him. There are other things we do together.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
FWIW and in a very full-on evangelical context, I can think of at least 3 or 4 marriages in my former independent charismatic evangelical church where a single woman from the congregation married a non-Christian (shock horror) or a Catholic (shock horror) with the result that all the fellas involved underwent an evangelical conversion in the fullness of time ...
Most of them became very active too. The only one who didn't really 'take' to it completely was the former RC ... which isn't a value judgement nor an endorsement - simply a statement of what happened.
Looking back, there were all sorts of concerns, counselling and tut-tutting going on but it all worked out in the end ... and with most of the blokes they seemed to adopt and adapt to the charismatic evangelical milieu without any more difficulty than the rest of us who were already involved.
Now, I'm not saying that this is the 'norm' or some kind of template or model ... but I simply pitch it out for what it's worth.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
I know of a number of active Christians married to atheists, and I am one myself.
So much depends on what kind of Christian you are and what kind of atheist they are; and on how good both of you are at embracing the fact that the person you have married is different from you.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
and the cavalier (in my eyes, anyway) way my Vietnamese guests treated the fridge.
Okay. I'll ask.
Just what were they doing to the fridge?
Nothing bad of course. But you know how people say "Make yourselves at home" without ever actually meaning it? Well, they did. Routinely (once they had the welcome) they did things like showing up unannounced (because nobody announces themselves in that culture by texting or calling), grocery bags in hand, walked straight to the kitchen, and proceeded to fix everybody dinner. The intent was to thank us for something we'd done for them during the week (immigration papers, tutoring, something). And the food was awesome. And they were perfectly correct in assuming that we didn't have other plans (poor students/missionaries, duh). But what I couldn't get over for months was the fact that they didn't say "do you mind if I ..." before opening a cabinet or drawer or fridge in the house. It gave me the most ridiculous irrational fears, up to and including "they're going to steal the silverware," which was ordinary flatware, so seriously?
Of course, now that I've adjusted, my attitude is "Hey, you want to fix me a five star Vietnamese dinner and do the dishes too? I'm actually pretty okay with that. Heck, here's the key to the house." ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) But in the throes of culture shock, I turned into a freak. Which won't surprise anybody. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I'd rather marry an atheist than a Tory.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd rather marry an atheist than a Tory.
Any atheist? Any Tory?
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Just a story. My husband grew up in a strict Catholic family. His parents never missed a mass and loved parading all twelve children into every service. While growing up, my husband heard his father say things like, "This is a Catholic family, none of us ever set foot in a Protestant church! All they do is read the Bible. They're all going to Hell!" etc. He believed he was a member of the One True Faith.
Then one day he found out that his paternal grandfather had been a convert, only becoming Catholic as a condition of marriage and often had lots of anti-RC mutterings himself. This really shook Hub's foundation. Someone he knew and trusted, a patriarch of the family had once been a member of the big spooky other.
I think that small thing set him up to consider marrying me, a divorced Methodist and eventually "going over to the other side" as his mother put it.
I think if you're a Christian (or whatever) and you feel strongly about your children growing up to be Christian, then you should probably be aware that, at some point, probably in their teens, they're likely to think, "Why should I believe all this? Dad doesn't." I think it can be a real crack in some children's faith to know that one of their two big role models doesn't subscribe.
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
My paternal grandmother was I believe Presbyterian. Though in practice a sort of mixed general Protestant. My paternal grandfather was Jewish. My grandfather died before I was born so I never saw them together, but when I asked my father if there was ever any problem between them or their families on account of religion, he said no because they had similar values.
My father, their son, considered himself a culturally Jewish agnostic. He married my mother, who was Methodist, and although they had various problems in their relationship, religion was never one. She went to church every Sunday, he came along for the coffee hour after.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
And I also take the idea of the sanctification of the unbeliever through the believer to mean, Stop telling your fellow Christians that their family are going to hell. Or if you really must say it, once is enough. Believe me, they won't have forgotten your words so they don't need to hear them again . . and again.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Because of course telling someone they are going to Hell makes them convert on the spot ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Someone once told me I was going to hell and I told them it was ontologically impossible to go to a place you didn't believe in. I'm not sure what that meant, but it shut them up
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Someone once told me I was going to hell and I told them it was ontologically impossible to go to a place you didn't believe in. I'm not sure what that meant, but it shut them up
Huia
Perhaps we should test the theory by finding a flat-earther and sending them into orbit?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Someone once told me I was going to hell and I told them it was ontologically impossible to go to a place you didn't believe in. I'm not sure what that meant, but it shut them up
I don't believe in Belgium. (I mean come on, be serious.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
IME, this is one of those things where you need to apply what is for my money the trippiest verse in the entire New Testament: whatever does not proceed from a conviction of faith is sin. (That noise you just heard was my head exploding.)
Taken that Paul (in another trippy verse) says that *everything* is permissible, marrying an unbeliever is definitely permissible. To me it comes down whether you have a conviction of faith about what you’re doing.
I saw this upfront in the case of a former flatmate of mine. She had always declaimed to all and sundry that she didn’t want to marry a non-Christian. She hit thirty still single and had a major freak-out which ended up with signing up on a dating site and finding her a man. Now this is not necessarily a wrong thing to do, but I could tell that her conscience wasn’t entirely easy about what she was doing. She didn’t have a conviction of faith that she was doing the right thing which resulted in some massive cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics. This showed in the way she was far from honest with people about where she met her boyfriend (who later became her husband). She claimed he was a Christian when it wasn’t true and I think she wanted to believe it. This worked out ok for her in the early stages when he turned up at church to make her happy but is harder to maintain now he’s stopped.
Had I been up for marrying a non-Christian I might well have been able to. I wouldn’t even have needed Meetic. I knew full well that one of my friends had had a crush on me for years. I also knew that my own conscience didn’t really approve, and with hindsight I am very glad I didn’t go there. Offending your own conscience is a bad idea.
OTOH, I have known other people who have married non-Christians, and clearly it didn’t pose a problem to them at all. Their marriages seem to be working out fine so far. The only thing that bothered them was the judgmental attitudes they could run into. Personally I’m not going to say they’re wrong. To me it all comes down to whether you have a conviction about what you’re doing.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
La Vie en Rouge - I'm not sure that verse is saying that provided we have some kind of 'conviction' about something, that makes whatever it is ok ...
I've known instances of church leaders who claim to have been 'led' to divorce their wives and go off with another woman ...
If that's what they've decided to do then that's their decision - it's got be-sweet-all to do with God or 'conviction' in my opinion ... they're simply justifying their actions after the event ...
In the cases I'm thinking of, it would seem that they simply fancied someone else and were bored of their existing partners ... but I accept that there are always two sides to these things ...
Now, your point about 'conscience' I can accept -- but please don't let's drag 'conviction of faith' and such like into it because I think that takes us onto very shaky ground ...
My own view of these matters is more pragmatic. It's not ideal for someone to marry an 'unbeliever' - for various pragmatic reasons - but if they do then that's a question for them and not something the rest of us have a right to pontificate on for them.
My understanding of the Orthodox position on this one - which differs from that found among the RCs (traditionally) and the various more full-on forms of Protestant - is that whilst marrying a non-Christian or a non-Orthodox Christian isn't seen as ideal, it's permissible providing it can be shown that this won't interfere with the kids being brought up in the Orthodox faith or being denied baptism.
I don't know how this is 'proven' in advance - but that's their 'take' as far as I understand it - with the 'ekkonomeia' thing applying here as with much else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Going back to the question asked of me "Was [my financee's conversion] a contidition of my proposal?
At the time I proposed I was about to be ordained in a conservative Lutheran church where it was expected the spouse would be of the same faith.
However, I can tell you the theology she grew up with (Christian Scientist) did inform some of my subsequent views of God.
What would have happened if she chose not to convert? Actually, we will never know. That was 50 years ago. Now I am a member of a more liberal church where the question of the faith of the spouse is not that big of an issue.
Now, going to 1 Corintians 7. I think it is pretty self explanitory. The fact was many of the early Christians were struggling with the fact that their spouses were unbelievers. While Jesus had said (in so many words) unless you are willing to give up everything to follow me, you are not one of mine, Paul is saying unless the unbelieving spouse totally rejects you because of your faith, stay married to your spouse. Paul does hold out the hope that even the unbelieving spouse will receive God's approval because of the belief of his/her spouse. How that happens I cannot explain it, other than if Paul said it, he must believe it.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
When My RC father married my Episcopalian mother she had to agree that any children would be baptised and brought up in the RC church- which we were. My parents were very happily married and the arrangement suited them.
When I reached adulthood I left the RC church and I am now in the catholic Anglican tradition which had influenced me as well.
My parents attended different churches but had a shared faith and similar values.
This is where it stands and falls in my experience- as long as the rearing of children does not present a problem, then mixed marriages can be just as happy and successful as marriages between people of the same faith/ denomination.
I can think of people who share a theological outlook but who make each other miserable. To me respect for the other's spirituality and having a similar moral compass are the most important factors at play here and if those things mesh then there is hope!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
For anyone facing this question, I say skip the bible, skip advice from well meaning people because they do not know the answers for you. Look at this person, and consider whether you truly know them, understand how and why they are like they are. Then decide. I find the posts on this thread annoyingly conservative and confining.
The bible is a story of faith, it is absolutely not a rule book. You are required to use your good judgement and no-one and nothing will spare you from your decisions. The bible does not tell me or you so.
I'd liken this to food. My wife likes yoghourt and cilantro/coriander. I will not eat either because they taste awful, a bad twang of nasty. Can we share a meal? Can we love, can we discuss?
We also disagree on politics, the roles of authority in society, music, what to read, and a host of other things. It enriches my life to have someone who I love and respect and disagree with. If all of our ideas and choices were the same, I'd have married myself.
No marriage should be entered into lightly. People check out used cars more thoroughly in most cases. The religious differences are important only insofar as they guide daily behaviour and personality.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
It's easy to be naive, and easy to be judgemental. Neither are helpful or Christlike.
I married a Christian, thinking that things should work out because we were both Christians. Turns out it's more complicated than that. 'Christian' marriages can fail, just like any other.
After being divorced, I decided that the most important thing I was looking for in a partner was their values and character. Of course, my priorities in those are informed by my faith, but there are plenty of christians with lousy characters and shoddy values, and obviously the reverse is as true. Somehow I now have managed to meet someone who has all those characteristics I admire, and faith to go with it, and I think I'm very lucky to have done so.
It's so easy to judge people for their choice in partner, their apparent success or failure in their relationships, or whatever other attribute we want to pick. It's probably apt to remember that relationships are quite private things, and the public part that we witness is only a very small part of the relationship itself, and probably the least important.
As is so often the case, the bible gives us a perfect picture of how life and relationships could look, and it would be wonderful if that was always the way. I'm sure that two devoted followers of Christ in beautiful unison is the ideal that should be aspired to. But life's not usually the ideal, and I'm glad that the Bible (and Paul, who wrote these words), speaks a lot more about the Grace that God has for us when life falls short of the ideal than he does making us feel guilty that we missed out on the ideal.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
As is so often the case, the bible gives us a perfect picture of how life and relationships could look, and it would be wonderful if that was always the way.
I get more of 'women are property of men' than anything else from the bible.
I agree with much of your post otherwise.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
My father was RC and my mother Lutheran, and the only time religion came into the question was when we children behaved like children - badly - when she would mutter bitterly about Confession and how we could tell that to the priest next time we went. I don't think she quite grasped the point that the RC church is a church of sinners. But then, aren't they all?
There were other differences, both cultural and temperamental, which caused far more friction between them. Yet they achieved contentment in the end. As a lifelong unmarried person, I'm not sure I could make it to that end without some disastrous explosion, but that's my story, not theirs.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
The Rector of a City church used to give the shortest possible sermon - usually three minutes or less - at weddings. His theme was, "You will be getting advice from all sorts of people about your marriage. Ignore it: it didn't work for them, and it probably won't for you."
In other words, we are not let off making our own, hopefully responsible, decisions. About anything.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't get 'women are the property of men' out of the Bible - if anything, in comparison with other stuff that was going on at the time, the NT is quite 'advanced' and 'progressive' in its attitudes towards women.
Heck - in keeping with older Jewish tradition, the Apostle Paul held that each partner had responsibilities towards the other when it came to issues like sexual fulfilment, for instance -
1 Corinthians 7:3-5
That doesn't smack of the wife being the husband's 'property' to me -- whatever else we might say about it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
The Rector of a City church used to give the shortest possible sermon - usually three minutes or less - at weddings. His theme was, "You will be getting advice from all sorts of people about your marriage. Ignore it: it didn't work for them, and it probably won't for you."
In other words, we are not let off making our own, hopefully responsible, decisions. About anything.
I've serious doubts whether anyone takes in, yet alone remembers, anything in the sermon at their own wedding. They've got too much on their minds.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
One of the 10 commandments: "You shall not covet your neighbour's house, you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, or his male slave, his female slave, his ox, his donkey or anything which belongs to your neighbour" (Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21). The reversal of how babies are created with Eve coming from Adam's rib, notwithstanding the pun in the Sumerian version makes an interesting put down.
It is possible to try to read equality more so into the NT, but it is a squeeze. Neither Paul nor Peter come off well with this, with their ideas of submission. We can also say that the bible was written in a cultural and historical context, and people did consider women to be chattel because the writings were a product of their time. But then this tells us that we can't rely on the bible to guide us in anything specific because the whole things is the product of humans writing in a historical times.
[ 09. June 2015, 17:02: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
When my parents married in 1948, they were both indifferent Anglicans. In 1952 my father had a "born again" experience, joined the Baptist Church and had a believers baptism in spite of having been baptised in the C of E as an infant. For several years he tried to brow beat my mother into following him along that road. When I was born in 1954, he didn't want to allow me to be christened as it was against his new found principles. As my elder brother had been christened in 1951, and all four grandparents wanted it, my mother and my grandparents had me christened against his will. He later strongly considered leaving his career to go into the Baptist ministry, but didn't.
They are now both still alive at 90, and have had a happy life. But my mother says that it's only because my father's zeal to convert her mellowed as they got older and he stopped trying. She remembers the days when he often threatened her with hell fire if she didn't "convert" as being the unhappiest days of her life.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've known instances of church leaders who claim to have been 'led' to divorce their wives and go off with another woman ...
I have noticed in such cases that God invariably leads them to go off with a younger and more attractive woman, and never with an older or plainer one.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
But never any tory.
Well, you have to draw the line somewhere.
At least it still leaves you free to marry a Satanist, paedophile, neo-Nazi or serial murderer.
But come to think of it, they would all by definition be Tory sympathisers...
Bugger!
You might have to settle for a Scientologist.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
[QUOTE]
You might have to settle for a Scientologist.
Scientology's all about making money for the leaders, isn't it? Sound like tories to me...
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I've noticed that too, Kaplan Corday. The Holy Spirit must be consistent in this matter ...
Meanwhile, I'm wondering whether there's been an instance where God the Holy Spirit has ever 'led' anyone to marry a Tory ...
Oh, I forgot, this is the 'unforgivable sin ...'
All this puts me in mind of a very earnest couple I knew from a very Reformed Evangelical background.
The wife was giving me a litany or catalogue of sins and back-slidings associated with the girls she'd grown up with in her youth group at a very Reformed Evangelical church ...
'One of them became an unmarried mother,' it ended, 'One of them married an atheist ...'
'And one of them married a Papist!' her husband chipped in, as if this was the worst it could get.
He didn't mention Tories. Mind you, given his politics, someone marrying a Labour Party voter would have been tantamount to marrying a 'Papist' ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Both my paternal and maternal Grandparents were marriages between Catholic women and Protestant men in the 1930's. My paternal Grandfather died young, but my three other Grandparents lived well into their 80's.
Norman, my Mum's father was an active Mason, and secretary of his lodge for many years. Ellen was a practicing Catholic with a strong belief. In a generation renowned for its sectarianism in Australia, we Mick kids loved going to the Lodge's Christmas picnic, and to midnight mass... well, at least until I hit my sulky teens and crueled it for the rest of them.
My Grandparents had a wonderful life together, each practicing their separate faith and cultural identities. The RC's imposed their condition: The children were to be Catholic, and because Norman accepted this as part of the price of Ellen's hand, everything was sweet.
I don't know how hard that was for Norman. It might have been a sore point for him. By the time I came along, that was all ancient history.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
The Rector of a City church used to give the shortest possible sermon - usually three minutes or less - at weddings. His theme was, "You will be getting advice from all sorts of people about your marriage. Ignore it: it didn't work for them, and it probably won't for you."
In other words, we are not let off making our own, hopefully responsible, decisions. About anything.
I've serious doubts whether anyone takes in, yet alone remembers, anything in the sermon at their own wedding. They've got too much on their minds.
Mrs Snags remembers what was said at ours, but she's like that. I still have no idea, even though she's repeatedly reminded me. But I'm like that ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
What about marriages/partnerships across two religions, eg a Muslim to a Hindu?
A colleague of mine is the daughter of a Hindu and a Sikh. She says this was possible because neither of her parents' religions, at least as they practised them, claimed any kind of exclusivity over the truth, and in fact they used to spend time reading each other's sacred texts and discussing what they could mean.
She also believes a marriage between a Muslim and a Hindu could not work, precisely because Islam does claim privileged access to the truth.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
When My RC father married my Episcopalian mother she had to agree that any children would be baptised and brought up in the RC church- which we were.
When I married my Irish, perhaps rather nominally RC wife, I was asked similar. I told the priest that a personal Christian faith for my kids was a deep hope of mine - but that I wasn't prepared to commit to a denominational bias - to which he replied 'that'll do'!.
Perhaps it's an irony that our kids faith continues to be built-up in their membership of an RC primary school and youth club, even though we all continue (just about) to attend a Methodist church. I'm in the RC men's group. We tend to avoid discussing the things we know divide us.
quote:
For anyone facing this question, I say skip the bible, skip advice from well meaning people because they do not know the answers for you. Look at this person, and consider whether you truly know them, understand how and why they are like they are.
From my experience, I say you have no chance of 'truly knowing them' at all. They (and you) don't truly know themselves, and if you're all loved up, you've really no chance. The best you can hope for is to believe that they, and you, aren't actively lying. Will either of you be the same next year, and in 15 years? No.
As elsewhere in this thread, Small Stuff divides me and the missus, not Transubstantiation. Cultural stuff to do with being Irish or not comes a long way up the list; hospitality / social bonhomie expectations cause all sorts of problems.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Nice post, Mark. It's the little things, yeah. My wife's a pagan, and I love dream-catchers!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Badger Lady
Shipmate
# 13453
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Posted
Another aspect of this is that people's faith/engagement with faith can change during the course of a relationship.
I've posted before about my parent's marriage which is relevant to this thread.
My mother was brought up within a nominally Christian family (i.e. my grandmother was a baptist my grandfather CofE but they didn't go to church). My mother was sent to a RC school. She emerged from this agnotistic but against organised religion.
My father is from a firmly Muslim family. He came to rail against the organisation of the Muslim faith and in particular treatment of women.
So, when my parents married (to the constenation of both families) they were theist but neither practised any relgion.
Fast forward 30 years.
My mother is now a Church of England priest. She started going to church again about 15 years ago after my grandfather died.
My father is a practising Muslim. He has been studying Arabic for about 7 years so he can read Qu'ran. Fasts at Ramadam and is planning to go on Hajj later this year. He does not attend a Mosque.
My parents are still married. My mother (as far as health allows) fasts during Ramadam and attends Eid meals with my father. My dad does not attend church services (save for my mother's ordinations/installations) but attends other church functions. He is amazingly supportive of my mother's ministry.
I know that some of my mother's former congregations struggled with my father's faith and viewed my mother with suspicion because of it. This I think has been the hardest thing to cope with.
I think that (among many other things) this illustrates that one may marry someone who shares your world view but that can change. A marriage can go from 'unmixed' (?) to 'mixed'.
Posts: 340 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Badger Lady:
[My Muslim father] is amazingly supportive of my mother's [Christian] ministry.
[...]
I know that some of my mother's former congregations struggled with my father's faith and viewed my mother with suspicion because of it. This I think has been the hardest thing to cope with.
As a layperson I can understand how some churchgoers might have felt. On the one hand, your mother no doubt wanted to encourage their faith and their participation in church life, but on the other, she didn't mind that some of her own family members found the whole thing irrelevant to them - apart from wanting her to be happy, and their pride at her status as a religious professional.
This situation represents one reality of modern Christianity, though: the 'Christian family' is something of a fantasy construct, because in many of our families not everyone will be a Christian. (This is the case in my nuclear and extended family too.) In our culture faith is considered to be private rather than communal, so the faith, or coming to faith, of one may have relatively little influence on the others. Family members support our church work because they see it makes us happy, brings us some influence in our community, and promotes good moral values, but they don't always come to see it as spiritually meaningful beyond a very personal level.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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