Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Don't be so quick, Oscar. I can tell by looking in the eyes if someone's gettin' a bad case of demonism. Not being a hypocrite, I do check my own eyes in the mirror from time to time.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Don't be so quick, Oscar. I can tell by looking in the eyes if someone's gettin' a bad case of demonism. Not being a hypocrite, I do check my own eyes in the mirror from time to time.

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What is it you see in a person's eyes which enables you to tell that they're getting "a bad case of demonism", what do you mean by that phrase, and what do you do if you see it?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
"Demon infestation" is in the same category as "flat earth" and "literal Adam and Eve" - these are things that people once believed but now should be seen as unhelpful superstitions.

Blaming Mexico's problems on demons is like blaming the Greek financial fiasco on left-handed people.

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quote:

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Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, the archbishop emeritus of Guadalajara, presided at the closed doors ceremony...
Also participating were Archbishop Jesús Carlos Cabrero of San Luis Potosí....

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jack o' the Green:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Don't be so quick, Oscar. I can tell by looking in the eyes if someone's gettin' a bad case of demonism. Not being a hypocrite, I do check my own eyes in the mirror from time to time.

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What is it you see in a person's eyes which enables you to tell that they're getting "a bad case of demonism", what do you mean by that phrase, and what do you do if you see it?

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I'd have to check your eyes first before I can tell you to make sure I'm not actually helping the sinister forces of demonism. I'm sure you'll understand, providing you're one of the good guys.

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Originally posted by Gramps49:

Just because you don't think demons exist does not mean they aren't there.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Gramps49:
Just a quick point: even though we may think there is no such thing as demon infestation, it does not mean it is not true.

It is a matter of perception.

Many people in the third world actually believe in demons.

A number in the second world also believe in them.

A few in the first world (secretly) believe they are there.

Just because you don't think demons exist does not mean they aren't there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gramps49:

Just because you don't think demons exist does not mean they aren't there.

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That's a silly thing to say.

"Just because you don't believe unicorns* exist does not mean they aren't there."

*Insert mythical creature of choice.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gramps49:

Just because you don't think demons exist does not mean they aren't there.

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That's a silly thing to say.

"Just because you don't believe unicorns* exist does not mean they aren't there."

*Insert mythical creature of choice.

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Now who is being silly? Everyone except ignorant wretches know the unicorns died in the flood.

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Posted                       

quote:

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There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If it were any old web page muttering about demons and ET aliens among us, I might agree; what caught my attention was high level Catholic church involvement.

quote:

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Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, the archbishop emeritus of Guadalajara, presided at the closed doors ceremony...
Also participating were Archbishop Jesús Carlos Cabrero of San Luis Potosí....

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But I know nothing of the reputation of these men.

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Originally posted by balaam:
Mere Nick, better get rid of all your pins, we don't want to give these demons anywhere to dance, do we.)

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
In situations like the one described in the OP, it seems more of a cop-out--a way to dodge actual changes in behavior, laws, or culture to resolve social ills (such as crime) and just blame demons and decide a prayer will fix it.

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Originally posted by Martin60:

If demons exist, they've changed their modus operandi since Jesus' milieu.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What I think is -very- easy to do is just to label a person, situation (or country? Really?) as demonic. Look what this then gets you out of! You don't have to know them, spend time, money or resources on them, or do anything to help them in any way. It's all the demon's fault! I can't do anything about it! (Assuming your attempts at exorcism fail.)

How easy it is then to use this label a lot. So I think it should be rare -- the absolute last resort, after all resources and efforts are made.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have certainly experienced something quasi-demonic in my work (therapy), that is, seeing something utterly self-destructive or other-destructive in people, which seemed to speak like the voice in The Exorcist. I have not taken a supernatural view of it, however; apart from anything else, that would be grossly unprofessional.

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Daniel 10:5-7,12-14,20-21,11:1,12:1:
I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, a man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with gold of Uphaz. His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the noise of a multitude. And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision, but a great trembling fell upon them, and they fled to hide themselves. ... Then he said to me, "Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your mind to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, so I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia and came to make you understand what is to befall your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come." ... Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I am through with him, lo, the prince of Greece will come. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince. And as for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to confirm and strengthen him. ... "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book.

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Originally posted by IngoB:
And yet, you feel compelled to qualify these psychoanalytical descriptions - or perhaps your field does, and you are now merely reporting on its terms. It is a quasi-demonic sub-personality, rather than a demonic personality. Hence its true autonomy is in question, is actually derived. It is in the end self-destruction, not other-destruction, that worries you there.

This is a kind of Turing test, really. Just what can a demon do to a person, or make a person do, that would reveal itself and its influences? The problem is that we "Turing-test" on embodiment, i.e., we instinctively attribute one actor per body. Thus no matter what a particular body does, we attribute its actions all to one "person" as its possessor - and if this becomes incoherent, we attribute madness to that person.

Not that I have a solution. I also have no idea how to objectively distinguish craziness from possession.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by orfeo:


I'd say much of what is hurting Mexico is plain old greed and corruption.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Preach on, mudfrog. I'm listening.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to preach


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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have certainly experienced something quasi-demonic in my work (therapy), that is, seeing something utterly self-destructive or other-destructive in people, which seemed to speak like the voice in The Exorcist. I have not taken a supernatural view of it, however; apart from anything else, that would be grossly unprofessional.

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That would depend on your profession, obviously...

The assumption that the spiritual warfare between (guardian) angles and demons also happens at a national level derives from

quote:

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Daniel 10:5-7,12-14,20-21,11:1,12:1:
I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, a man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with gold of Uphaz. His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the noise of a multitude. And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision, but a great trembling fell upon them, and they fled to hide themselves. ... Then he said to me, "Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your mind to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, so I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia and came to make you understand what is to befall your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come." ... Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I am through with him, lo, the prince of Greece will come. But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince. And as for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to confirm and strengthen him. ... "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book.

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So we find here among others the Archangel Michael, Prince of the Seraphim, fighting with the "prince of Persia", presumably some kind of archdemon.

The traditional picture considers human beings as the lowest of "foot soldiers" in a much larger spiritual war that rages across the world. Entities like countries / kingdoms / nations are organising units for this spiritual infantry, turning for example the Brits into a particular spiritual army, and hence higher spirits associate to this at an appropriate hierarchical level. The "national spirits" are both "generals" (commanders over the lower ranks locked in battle, all the way down to our personal guardian angels vs. individual demons) and "big guns" (possessing major force themselves, equivalent to say an aircraft carrier).

As for the attempts to explain this away as "just a way of talking psychology" - well, that cuts both ways. We might as well say that psychology to a considerable extent is "just a way of talking demonology". The difference between psychology and demonology can be really subtle. In particular, it does no good to start talking about "brain chemistry". Quite apart from the fact that the "neuroscience" behind this is often more magically assumed than scientifically present, humans as embodied beings would be expected to show bodily signatures when under spiritual attack. It is at best Cartesian dualism to assume that spiritual battle would be restricted to the immaterial (and hence unobservable) realm. Other conceptions, including other dualist ideas, exist and would in contrast expect to see telltale signs in the body. And this does not have to be revolving heads as in "The Exorcist", it could as well be some neurotransmitter depletion etc.

The real difference between demonology and psychology concerns the question whether what diminishes the human actor is something personal or impersonal. Short of revelation (either Divine, or possibly a self-revelation of the demon), such judgements are difficult, and for the most part, impossible. We mostly project our prejudices into this. Modern people assume "impersonal unless proven personal". However, nobody and nothing, in particular also no existing science, guarantees this particular assumption.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Preach on, mudfrog. I'm listening.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to preach

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

"Just because you don't believe unicorns* exist does not mean they aren't there."

*Insert mythical creature of choice.

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Smurfs?

Anybody says Smurfs don't exist and I'm out of here

Better back to OP.
Jesus had direct dealings with demons so to deny them would be to deny quite a lot of what Jesus was on about. What they are and how they operate in our lives is somewhat harder to pin down. It does though seem that whenever demons manage to get get persons, or peoples calling each other evil then the only winner is evil itself, IE wars etc.

I'm not sure exorcisms and the casting out of demons by mere people is always such a good idea. That isn't to say some may find benefit from it.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

"Just because you don't believe unicorns* exist does not mean they aren't there."

*Insert mythical creature of choice.

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Smurfs?

Anybody says Smurfs don't exist and I'm out of here

Better back to OP.
Jesus had direct dealings with demons so to deny them would be to deny quite a lot of what Jesus was on about. What they are and how they operate in our lives is somewhat harder to pin down. It does though seem that whenever demons manage to get get persons, or peoples calling each other evil then the only winner is evil itself, IE wars etc.

I'm not sure exorcisms and the casting out of demons by mere people is always such a good idea. That isn't to say some may find benefit from it.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, cliffdweller, just saying 'This' is rather enigmatic, but suggests that you think that psychology should not attempt to deal with the dark forces in the psyche. Obviously, I don't agree.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:

What intrigues me is that demons never show their hand. Which is incredibly disciplined of them and those Jesus encountered weren't. Or they are incredibly leashed since Jesus.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin60:

So if demons are real, until they show their hand, we need to get on with things. Including embracing, comforting, encouraging the afflicted regardless. Ringing bells, closing books and blowing out candles isn't going to stop the tickling. Quetiapine is.

Which in ONE case I must admit I find extremely difficult. Getting on with things. Not because he's nasty and frightening, but because he's a pain in the arse. I wish there WERE obvious demons to cast out. How do you cast out hard-wired extroverted helplessness?

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