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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Define "demonic"
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Glad.
But you personally haven't encountered anything incontrovertibly, utterly demonic, i.e. a contravention of the laws of physics that you would swear by. Like me. Anywhere. Ever. With anyone. No demon has shown their hand to you or any two witnesses you would trust with your bank account, even in Uganda.
Don't be so sure, Martin.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'd say much of what is hurting Mexico is plain old greed and corruption.
But then, based on the temptations of Jesus, it seems that the lies the Devil wants us to believe are indeed the plain and old ones: that it is good to do whatever is necessary feed our "natural" appetites, that wealth can compensate for the subjugation of the soul and that power vests in those who are able to make a big show of it.
Well yes, but to me there's a fundamental difference between "the Devil might tell you these things" and "every time you think these things, it's because of the Devil".
Demons might be a sufficient cause for lots of things, but that doesn't mean they're a necessary cause.
EDIT: Similarly, Mudfrog in his post goes from saying certain things are lies to saying they are lies from hell. Well, personally I think there are plenty of lies that come from right here on earth.
It's rather reminiscent, actually of the desire to paint terrorists as "monsters" rather than human beings. I think there's a general desire sometimes to externalise bad things and distance them from ourselves. We're human, so anything that we can label as inhuman, we're saying it isn't us.
Whereas I think plenty of it is us.
[ 19. June 2015, 03:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
It seems to me that there are two, related and yet separate, topics here.
a) The general idea of the reality (or not) of demons. There is no doubt that Jesus believed in such things, although we might easily discuss whether that is definitive proof.
b) The question of whether a country or region can be "demon infested". This, I would suggest, is far more problematic. And you can believe a) without believing b).
This thread seems to be about b), although some people seem to think that addressing a) will prove b) as well.
Whilst I will admit to being very sceptical about a), I have seen nothing on this thread (nor any where else) which would suggest that b) is nothing more than rampant superstition. Good luck with trying to prove b) from a biblical standpoint.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
It seems to me that there are two, related and yet separate, topics here.
a) The general idea of the reality (or not) of demons. There is no doubt that Jesus believed in such things, although we might easily discuss whether that is definitive proof.
b) The question of whether a country or region can be "demon infested". This, I would suggest, is far more problematic. And you can believe a) without believing b).
This thread seems to be about b), although some people seem to think that addressing a) will prove b) as well.
Whilst I will admit to being very sceptical about a), I have seen nothing on this thread (nor any where else) which would suggest that b) is nothing more than rampant superstition. Good luck with trying to prove b) from a biblical standpoint.
The reference to an angel being detained by "the prince of Persia" in Dan. 10:13 fits, although of course one would want more than a single passage to build an entire theology upon.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Similarly, Mudfrog in his post goes from saying certain things are lies to saying they are lies from hell. Well, personally I think there are plenty of lies that come from right here on earth.
Well, lies come from the world (society's false opinions), the flesh (the things that I tell myself are OK because I want them to be), and the devil (the father of lies).
Ultimately, wherever a lie comes from, the Devil is responsible - even if he hasn't personally told the lie.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Similarly, Mudfrog in his post goes from saying certain things are lies to saying they are lies from hell. Well, personally I think there are plenty of lies that come from right here on earth.
Well, lies come from the world (society's false opinions), the flesh (the things that I tell myself are OK because I want them to be), and the devil (the father of lies).
Ultimately, wherever a lie comes from, the Devil is responsible - even if he hasn't personally told the lie.
Hmm. I'm put in mind of the story of Satan wandering into a bar and finding God nursing what is clearly merely the latest in a line of Scotches.
"What's up?" asks Old Nick
"Earth. They blame me for everything down there."
The Devil sits down and says "I know exactly how you feel..."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why does the chain of responsibility, whatever that is, end with Satan?
And I couldn't be more certain cliffdweller.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And I couldn't be more certain cliffdweller.
Wow. You're totally certain you know my life, my experience, w/o question? That's either unbelievably arrogant, or terrifyingly creepy. Do you work for the NSA?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
If you must get personal, take it to Hell. As you well know.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And I couldn't be more certain cliffdweller.
Wow. You're totally certain you know my life, my experience, w/o question? That's either unbelievably arrogant, or terrifyingly creepy. Do you work for the NSA?
I interpreted Martin60's certainty to refer to his own rather than anyone else's experience.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No Sir. Nobody here or in Uganda has experienced a malevolent suspension of the laws of physics. I wish they and I had.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Does this world have an outside, like a novel has an outside where the author makes her decisions? Someone mentioned mayflies, which live for many months in rivers or lakes, then cross the water's silver surface for a few hours of reproductive glory in the air before, disappointingly, dying; they have no mouths as adults.
That's one form of transcendence and it can give you a heavenly realm and, if you wish, a demonic one, too.
But I think you can also have the form of transcendence that art (including some novelists) produces. Then there is no need for an outside. This is enough, when seen as an artist helps us see it, by painting pictures or spinning parables.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The reference to an angel being detained by "the prince of Persia" in Dan. 10:13 fits, although of course one would want more than a single passage to build an entire theology upon.
And if your main biblical support is a fragment of a notoriously obscure and misunderstood piece of apocalyptic writing, you're on really dodgy grounds. Experience shows that most beliefs inspired by such writings can be safely placed in the category of "Batshit Crazy".
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
cliffdweller. I know nothing about you, virtually, apart from one singular belief which spoils everything else. You're female and from San Fransisco or Lowestoft. And the fact that neither you nor anyone else here or in Uganda has experienced a malevolent suspension of the laws of physics. Or a benevolent one.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I don't think I can respond to that here w/o falling afoul of the admonition of our host. If you want to discuss it further, we'll have to go elsewhere.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I await your summons where you can refute the irrefutable truth of what I say in any terms you like.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Devil made me do it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Martin60, perhaps he did, but if you continue goading cliffdweller in Purgatory he (i.e. the devil) and you will have the admins to deal with.
/hosting
[ 20. June 2015, 06:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sir.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Regarding demons, I think my head was done in when God possessed Saul with an evil spirit so that he would require David's harp playing to calm down - 1 Samuel 16:14.
It suggests to me that inspiring good is far more complex that shouting, "I cast thee out!"
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And the fact that neither you nor anyone else here or in Uganda has experienced a malevolent suspension of the laws of physics. Or a benevolent one.
The traditional view is that no creature can work proper supernatural miracles, only God can. God can work miracles through creatures, including the incorporeal spirits as much as human beings, but it is not in their own power to do so.
Consequently, it is plain nonsense to claim that the absence of any "malevolent suspension of the laws of physics" suggests the non-existence of demons (as traditionally understood). Whereas it is simply heresy, bordering on apostasy, to deny the presence of any "benevolent suspension of the laws of physics". Divine miracles are an integral and essential part of Christian belief, and those who throw them out have thrown out the Son of Man with the bathwater...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Category errors alert.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
OKaaayyyy. Not finding the demonic meaningful doesn't invalidate the Incarnation in the slightest. Any more than evolution does.
That's one category error dealt with. Or non sequitur.
Neither does it invalidate the demonic, whatever that might be. No one here or in Uganda knows what it is through any valid experience.
Finding Bronze and Iron Age accounts of supernatural experience, including Jesus', open to full, open, inquiry don't touch Him either.
He was a man of His culture. Human. Therefore weak. Ignorant. And I don't doubt His encounters for a moment. He spoke with demons including their Prince. Even though the latter interaction is easy to see as projected. A totally internal dialogue. No less valid for that, as an experience of the fully Divine in the fully human.
That's the same non-sequitur being dealt with I realise.
Can demons read minds? If so, they don't seem very good at it. Or demonstrating it. How do they sense the material? Can they not see a hand of cards? Even if they can, they cannot indicate what they are seeing to willing card players.
So how do they make us lie or lust or murder?
How do they take over a tiny few of the massive number of very broken human beings and rarely do things that are impossible (breaking any restraint) but that are mainly incoherent? By God's permission?
That they are even madder than we would follow a minimal literal narrative. The more coherent ones don't seem to waste their time on throwing children in the fire. What are they doing? Influencing Iranian politicians? How?
None of their interactions with Jesus or Paul require mind reading, either through the senses of the rare people they possess or through their own supernatural senses they could see and hear Jesus' ministry. Were they at Bethlehem? Why couldn't they tell Herod?
They seem incredibly weak. And NO I don't want to find out how strong. And yes I would fast and pray until they were weak again.
Are they all concertedly playing Baudelaire's Joueur Généreux recycled as Keyser Söze, or George Spiggott? Even the craziest of them?
To what end? Whilst doing what to our detriment? Elegantly matched by the angels of Lourdes how?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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