Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Shot while praying
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It depends how you count it, Enoch, but from what I've read and heard I think it was certainly proportionately higher than that in WW1. Not sure about WW2.
The proportion was disproportionate, as it were, in various parts of the country and was higher in Scotland and Ireland than in England and Wales.
Even so, there is the oft-quoting and shocking statistic of a village in Shropshire which lost a considerable proportion of those who marched away to war -- although it's by no means clear how representative this was. Some of the stats are based on using that as a base or 'norm' - but it would be rather like taking the casualties from one of the Pals battalions in WW1 - Accrington, say or Leeds - where the Pals system led to disproportionately high casualty figures from particular communities - and extrapolating that across the UK as a whole.
That said, I think the deaths from plague and other diseases were pretty horrendous - I think I read somewhere that up to 30% of Bristol's population perished from disease, privation and so on during the city's two sieges and their aftermath. Extrapolate that into modern terms and figures then you're talking about death on a massive scale.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Without minimising horror, in modern terms the number of casualties in some of the much cited atrocities and massacres were pretty low -
12 men killed at Barthomley (near here) in a massacre that was laid to the King's charge during his trial - even though he was nowhere near the place at the time and it seems to have been a knee-jerk response by royalist troops fired on from the church tower.
30 massacred at Hopton Castle in Shropshire as it fell to besieging Royalist forces.
Perhaps 150 massacred at Basing House as it fell to Parliamentarian forces.
This puts the figures of 2,500 to 3,000 massacred at Drogheda and Wexford into perspective ie. highly unusual and way above average - and a mix of combatants and non-combatants too.
There were also around 100 Welsh women slaughtered by Parliamentarian troops after the battle of Naseby because they were mistaken for Irish women - and their cooking knives taken for offensive weapons.
All terrible events, but relatively low in casualties compared to continental warfare at that time - particularly the Thirty Years War.
But ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The safest places to be in the Civil War were London, East Anglia and south east of London because they were under the control of one side all the way through. You still got plundered there and your sons were impressed, but the general destruction was less. The worst places to be were Scotland, Ireland and Wales, as the levels of local destruction and animosity were much higher.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: ...there was so much foraging and plundering - as well as troops being billeted on civilian populations and eating them out of house and home.
People's diets were pretty meagre at the best of times, but hunger became a huge issue during the Civil War - both for combatants and non-combatants.
I think this is typical of war. At the end of the Thirty Years War the population of Germany was half what it had been at the beginning, despite the fact that most of the soldiers were not German.
When hungry people face each other, and some have weapons and some don't, the ones with the weapons get the food.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Some battles had horribly high death rates. For example Agincourt (1415) apparently had more than 7,000 dead.
By the time we get to Trafalgar and Waterloo in the 19 century, there were thousands of deaths, and in the case of the Napoleonic wars, these were a string of conflicts over wide geographic space fought for years.
One shocking part of these particularly industrial forms of warfare is that they only lasted a day. That is a lot of death in a short amount of time.
-------------------- arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure - which explains, of course, why there were bands of 'Clubmen' who formed to fend off foraging by either side.
In South Wales these emerged as 'The Peaceable Army' which was originally formed in response to the ravages of the Royalist Gerard as he progressed through Pembrokeshire and into Glamorgan.
They wanted Gerard dismissed and ostensibly declared themselves neutral - hoping to fend off the attentions of either side. It's been suggested that Royalist demands on South Wales for men, munitions and supplies eventually created a back-lash which led to the collapse of the Royalist cause in that part of the world. There was certainly a lot of side-changing and prevarication going on among the beleagured Welsh gentry - and, towards the end of the first Civil War atrocities and enormities carried out by rampaging Royalist troops - even against those who had formerly supported them.
The fighting in Wales was on a far smaller scale than in England, Scotland and Ireland - but the economic and social effects were far-reaching.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Further, I'd also say that during the period after the civil war, society became increasingly militarised, with the system of "impressment" (press gangs) from at least 1664 and other forms of enforced military activity on the populous.
-------------------- arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, mr cheesy - it's been said that the number of casualties at the battle of Borodino during Napoleon's Russian campaign was the equivalent of several jumbo-jets full of passengers crashing within six-square miles of each other every 5 minutes for the duration of the battle.
The number of French and Spanish deaths at Trafalgar is put at around 10,000. The casualties on both sides at Waterloo were immense. All close-quarter artillery and musket fire, see -- not terribly accurate weapons but at close-range against densely packed troops ...
The casualties in English Civil War battles were nowhere near as high - but Marston Moor and 2nd Newsbury were particularly bloody.
The Royalists lost far more captured than killed or wounded at Naseby, but on a recent visit to the area I was chilled by reading accounts of fugitives cut down or drowned in village ponds in a broad swathe away from the battlefield.
There have been studies done to show that many combatants survived sword-cuts - mostly to the upper arms as they tried to defend themselves against blows from horseback - and that pike wounds weren't often fatal. It's actually quite difficult to kill someone with a pike. Musket wounds were worse as they dragged debris and bits of clothing into the wound and made it fester.
Contemporary physicians did know to pick bits of cloth out of wounds, but of course, with no antibiotics and only rudimentary antiseptic, the chances of wounds becoming infected was very high indeed.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Insofar as there was a standing army after 1660, yes -- but according to an expert I've heard speak, impressment was never as bad as the mythology suggests and in the navy at least, it was rare to press landlubbers -- they usually went for trained merchant seamen who 'knew the ropes'.
The army tended to entice people - the King's Shilling - but did occasionally resort to violent impressment.
Interestingly, quite a number of cases against men who violently resisted press-gangs were dropped as it was considered reasonably legitimate to resist impressment and juries often sympathised with the accused.
Bizarrely, of course, the British establishment believed that impressment was far more civilised than conscription - which existed in France and Spain during the Napoleonic Wars - because at least with impressment 'freeborn Englishman' could always run away or even fight back to some extent ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I wonder what it means that a discussion originally about a massacre of African-American Bible-studiers has morphed into a discussion of the English Civil War? [ 23. June 2015, 12:48: Message edited by: Porridge ]
-------------------- Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that. Moon: Including what? Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie. Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: ...but according to an expert I've heard speak, impressment was never as bad as the mythology suggests and in the navy at least, it was rare to press landlubbers -- they usually went for trained merchant seamen who 'knew the ropes'.
A nineteenth century novel told of Royal Navy officers who boarded a ship as it was about to enter harbor. They took so many skilled seamen that the remaining ones could not bring the ship in safely. It sank with all aboard.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Porridge: I wonder what it means that a discussion originally about a massacre of African-American Bible-studiers has morphed into a discussion of the English Civil War?
I think it means that people had said all they had to say about the Charleston shootings.
If the thread hadn't morphed, I think it would have died.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There is a connection too, insofar as British concepts of the role and responsibilities of the militia in relation to the regular army and the county magistrates and so on has a direct bearing on the way conditions developed that led to the outbreak of rebellion in the 13 Colonies.
Also, there's an argument that the US Revolution was effectively the English Civil Wars Round 2 ...
Although the Wars of the Three Kingdoms might be a more accurate term for the Civil Wars in what became the UK ...
If you read the rhetoric about 'the rights of freeborn Englishmen' from the late 18th century it all sounds uncannily reminiscent of the rhetoric the Colonists and Founding Fathers were touting at the same time.
It also has a bearing on the right to bear arms thing -- and as has been said, this was largely pushed for by the southern States as they feared slave uprisings if the regular militia were called away to fight elsewhere.
The US had a tiny standing army post-Independence. Hence the reliance on 'a well regulated militia' and bingo, the 2nd Amendment -- with all the results and fall-out from that ever since.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
In a thinly spread rural society, with next to no standing army, no real police force, and people in the forest who have understandable grounds for thinking the settlers have pinched their ancestral lands, it makes enormous sense for civil society to organise itself on assumptions of cooperative civil defence. The question, though, remains whether it makes sense to carry this over into a complex modern industrial society.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: There is a connection too, insofar as British concepts of the role and responsibilities of the militia in relation to the regular army and the county magistrates and so on has a direct bearing on the way conditions developed that led to the outbreak of rebellion in the 13 Colonies.
Also, there's an argument that the US Revolution was effectively the English Civil Wars Round 2 ...
I don't believe there is any serious argument of that. All of your historical claims are disputed, you've just laid out a view of history and vaguely linked it to conditions in the USA. Your knowledge of history is poor and the link is tenuous.
-------------------- arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
As I suggested in Hell, it looks like the move to remove the confederate flag may indeed be a way of striking at a relevant symbol rather than getting mired in a gun control debate: link [ 24. June 2015, 08:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm beginning to have slight pangs of doubt about the flag thing, because something I just read struck a chord with me.
Some Shipmates sometimes point out that etymology is not meaning.
I'm wondering now whether flag "etymology" is flag meaning. What the flag meant in the 1860s doesn't necessarily tell us exactly what it means to people now.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think what they think it means now is that it is a rallying point for white supremacy.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Yes indeed: it was very popular as a motif for young ladies to make in lace at the end of the 19th century.
I have inherited a tablecloth which was part of my grandmama's trousseau which has as a border a double row of swastikas.
I can't use it, nor do I feel I can sell it, but to destroy such fine workmanship feels wrong so it lives packed away at the bottom of a wardrobe.
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I have a shirt that I wore to a wedding in the East bedecked with the symbol of Ganesh.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: I don't believe there is any serious argument of that. All of your historical claims are disputed, you've just laid out a view of history and vaguely linked it to conditions in the USA. Your knowledge of history is poor and the link is tenuous.
I said 'there is an argument' - and there is, I've heard it said and have read comments to that effect. It doesn't mean that I agree with that argument.
There are parallels and echoes, but whether the links are any more than tenuous is a moot point.
Parallels have certainly been suggested between the situation in 1688 when RC officers replaced Protestant ones in various militias in this country - leading to a certain jumpiness that James II was going to use the militias to put down dissent ... and the situation in the Colonies in 1776.
I'm not saying that's definitely the case. All I'm saying is that the American Revolution didn't happen in a vacuum -- as well as drawing on models and antecedents from classical antiquity, the Founding Fathers drew on historical precedents and rhetoric about individual freedoms and rights from British history. How could they not have done?
I was posting in a rather broad-brush and rather flippant way and certainly wasn't laying out any kind of historical manifesto for scrutiny.
I don't claim to be an historian - but I have studied aspects of British political satire in the late 18th century - mostly in connection with the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars - rather than the earlier American War of Independence - although I did have a quick look into that.
I've been more than happy to accept your corrections and clarifications on the location of Chi-Rho monograms and Romano-British artefacts over on the 'oldest church' thread, mr cheesy - but I must admit I find your picky and carping tone rather tiresome at times.
[code] [ 24. June 2015, 12:26: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I hasten to add that I am in broad agreement with much of what you write on these boards, mr cheesy and am not out to pick a fight.
I don't think I've consciously clashed with you or contradicted you at any stage - although I seem to remember you thought I was suggesting you were a 'communist apologist' which certainly wasn't my intention - although I may not have expressed myself clearly and given that impression.
If I did, then it wasn't intentional.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: I'm wondering now whether flag "etymology" is flag meaning. What the flag meant in the 1860s doesn't necessarily tell us exactly what it means to people now.
The flag that is now considered the Confederate flag was originally the battle flag. The Stars and Bars was another flag as was the Bonny Blue Flag. The national anthem of the Confederacy has the refrain, Hurrah for the bonny blue flag that bears a single star.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: quote: Originally posted by orfeo: I'm wondering now whether flag "etymology" is flag meaning. What the flag meant in the 1860s doesn't necessarily tell us exactly what it means to people now.
The flag that is now considered the Confederate flag was originally the battle flag. The Stars and Bars was another flag as was the Bonny Blue Flag. The national anthem of the Confederacy has the refrain, Hurrah for the bonny blue flag that bears a single star.
Moo
It was the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia.
-------------------- "Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward." Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Crśsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: I'm wondering now whether flag "etymology" is flag meaning. What the flag meant in the 1860s doesn't necessarily tell us exactly what it means to people now.
It was originally an emblem of a treasonous rebellion dedicated to slavery and white supremacy. Later it was adopted as the banner of a highly successful white supremacist terrorist organization. Even later it was symbol adopted by the governments of various Southern states (including South Carolina) to indicated their "massive resistance" to integration and racial equality. Given its fairly lengthy association with white supremacy (and anything with a consistent 150 year history is exceptionally ancient by U.S. standards) I don't think there's any other way to interpret the Confederate battle flag than as a symbol of white supremacy.
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
What else could it possibly mean?
Oh, I wish I was in the land of cotton. Old times there are not forgotten.
-------------------- "I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe: What else could it possibly mean?
Oh, I wish I was in the land of cotton. Old times there are not forgotten.
That's the thing about flags. They mean different things to different folks and that's why we don't fly any flags on our property.
-------------------- "Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward." Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Yep, so does the swastika.
Interesting side note. Apple's spell check does not recognise this word. This Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Native American, Sami, etc. symbol of good is unrecognised by Apple in spite of its massive familiarity.
ETA:Oh, silly me. The evil of the swastika has overcome the thousands of years of good. Must be mirror the Confederate flag. The evil of its creation, inititial and continued use are obscuring the good it has overseen. Now, just what was that good bit again? [ 24. June 2015, 17:41: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
IMO, the only flags that should be flown over governmental buildings are the flags of the state and nation. However, I don't live in SC so will leave such decisions to the people who do. I have no problem with it being flown at memorials for or the graveyards of the many thousands who died in that war because only a heartless bastard would tell someone that the pain of losing a loved one is not legitimate.
-------------------- "Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward." Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: Must be mirror the Confederate flag. The evil of its creation, inititial and continued use are obscuring the good it has overseen. Now, just what was that good bit again?
You'll have to ask a Southerner about Southern Pride. However, you might want to think carefully about whether you really want to suggest that nothing at all good has ever come out of any of the places that fly that flag.
I get that the flag has a hell of a lot of negative connotations. I also get that the greater good here will be to stop flying it in these public spaces. The bit that makes me uncomfortable is telling individuals "this flag means you're a horrible racist", telling them what it means to them.
Because it doesn't automatically mean the same thing to each individual person that it means to Dylan Roof. Just because to him it represents something that is also represented by the apartheid South African flag and the Rhodesian flag, doesn't mean that's what it represents to each and every person.
In exactly the same that just because a swastika represents a certain something to a neo-Nazi, doesn't mean it represents the same thing to a Hindu.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Not telling anyone what they must feel about any symbol. Just saying the Confederate flag was designed to represent an evil cause. Straight, plain and simple. Is there even the concept of a Northern Pride? Eastern Pride? Western Pride? Proud to be a Texan, I can see that. Proud to be from Mississippi? Check. Southern pride. What does that mean? What is "The South"? It is a region whose identity is tied to the American Civil War which was fought to protect Slavery. Would a general "Southern" quality exist without that? Likely. And I'm not reducing the South to its participation in that conflict. But that flag is inextricably tied to that. Do good people live in the South? Yes, of course. No worse, no better than anywhere else. Has anything good come from keeping that flag, though?
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: I get that the flag has a hell of a lot of negative connotations. I also get that the greater good here will be to stop flying it in these public spaces. The bit that makes me uncomfortable is telling individuals "this flag means you're a horrible racist", telling them what it means to them.
Because it doesn't automatically mean the same thing to each individual person that it means to Dylan Roof. Just because to him it represents something that is also represented by the apartheid South African flag and the Rhodesian flag, doesn't mean that's what it represents to each and every person.
In exactly the same that just because a swastika represents a certain something to a neo-Nazi, doesn't mean it represents the same thing to a Hindu.
I can see in theory the truth of this. My problem is, as much as I keep hearing time & time again something very much like what you have said here, I have yet to hear any Southerner articulate precisely what that "something else" might be. I hear that it's not just about racism, it's not just about slavery and segregation, and so we shouldn't judge those for whom it represents something else. Fair 'nuff. But it might help a lot if someone-- perhaps you-- could articulate what those other meanings are. If it's "heritage", then what heritage? What are some of those aspects of Southern heritage that you or others are celebrating with this particular flag that makes it so important that it has, until quite recently, drummed out the tremendous pain it causes your neighbors?
Not trying to bait at all-- really interested in hearing your answer.
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
In response to the last 2 posts: I don't disagree with any of that.
And I'm hardly the one to tell you what being from the South means. I've never been there.
EDIT: All I can say is that it does seem clear that there's such a thing as a separate cultural identity. I doubt the Civil War could even have happened without there being a certain difference in cultural identity.
Whether that identity is so wrapped up in slavery as to be inextricable from it, I don't know. [ 24. June 2015, 23:09: Message edited by: orfeo ]
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo: The flag that is now considered the Confederate flag was originally the battle flag. The Stars and Bars was another flag as was the Bonny Blue Flag. The national anthem of the Confederacy has the refrain, Hurrah for the bonny blue flag that bears a single star.
The Bonnie Blue Flag was never a flag of the Confederacy, nor was the song "The Bonnie Blue Flag" the national anthem of the Confederacy. (So far as I know, the CSA had no national anthem. I'd be surprised to learn otherwise, since the USA had no national anthem until 1931.)
The Bonnie Blue Flag, which was based on the flag of the short-lived Republic of West Florida, was used by some Southern states as a symbol of secession and state sovereignty, and it inspired some other flags, but it never had official standing.
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: I get that the flag has a hell of a lot of negative connotations. I also get that the greater good here will be to stop flying it in these public spaces. The bit that makes me uncomfortable is telling individuals "this flag means you're a horrible racist", telling them what it means to them.
I agree. Though as someone who has lived in the American South all of my 50+ years, I would say I don't encounter this attitude nearly as often as I encounter the opposite attitude: "This flag stands for heritage. I'm not offended by it, so no one else should be either. Anyone who is offended doesn't know what they're talking about." I hear that with alarming regularity.
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: As I suggested in Hell, it looks like the move to remove the confederate flag may indeed be a way of striking at a relevant symbol rather than getting mired in a gun control debate: link
There may be some truth to that. But debate—sometimes vigorous debate—about the Confederate battle flag on state property, or as part of something like a state flag, has been going on for decades. (Ditto debates about other things like monuments or buildings named after people.) That debate has ebbed and flowed and has seen wins, losses and compromises.
I think there is a strong sense that what happened in Charleston might be what pushes enough people to resolve the flag debate after decades of fighting about it. For many, it's not so much a way of avoiding a gun debate as it is a deep-rooted and festering cultural issue that needs airing and resolution. Though it may look like elsewhere, it's not a band-aid argument. It's a very real issue on its own. [ 24. June 2015, 23:13: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: Though as someone who has lived in the American South all of my 50+ years, I would say I don't encounter this attitude nearly as often as I encounter the opposite attitude: "This flag stands for heritage. I'm not offended by it, so no one else should be either. Anyone who is offended doesn't know what they're talking about." I hear that with alarming regularity.
Do you have any clue what this "heritage" is that they are fighting so hard to maintain this symbolic representation of? What aspects of Southern life are encapsulated for them in it? I, too, have heard this sentiment often-- and for those of us on the other side of the country, it's just mystifying because it's never unpacked. It's just wrapped us as a sort of "just so" argument. It would go a long way toward helping the rest of the country understand/ accept the use of the flag if we had some more concrete understanding of what they are referring to.
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Various:
--Re domestic terrorism: Watch the movie "Arlington Road". Very good, very disturbing, very haunting.
--I saw "Bowling For Columbine" yesterday, for the first time. Local station ran it--wisely, I think. Good film. (Gun control/rights.)
--Re the Southern heritage that people are looking back to: Not a Southerner, but it seems to be a (perceived) Golden Age.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: Do you have any clue what this "heritage" is that they are fighting so hard to maintain this symbolic representation of?
When you boil it down, it is the sad memory of the massive number of men killed by the war. More died in the civil war than in all the other wars through Korea, combined. As a percentage of population, it was worse than decimation for the southern soldiers. If things had worked out to where war could have been avoided or maybe even ended early with a minimum of casualties there wouldn't be such pain to remember.
-------------------- "Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward." Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Perhaps it's worth mentioning that there's a Wikipedia article on the Southern United States, and a separate article specifically on the Culture of the Southern United States.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Golden Key: quote: --Re the Southern heritage that people are looking back to: Not a Southerner, but it seems to be a (perceived) Golden Age.
If you weren't black.
-------------------- "Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mere Nick: quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: Do you have any clue what this "heritage" is that they are fighting so hard to maintain this symbolic representation of?
When you boil it down, it is the sad memory of the massive number of men killed by the war. More died in the civil war than in all the other wars through Korea, combined. As a percentage of population, it was worse than decimation for the southern soldiers. If things had worked out to where war could have been avoided or maybe even ended early with a minimum of casualties there wouldn't be such pain to remember.
Yes- it was a horrible war.
Although, according to The Civil War Trust Northern casualties were more numerous than Southern.
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: quote: Originally posted by Mere Nick: quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: Do you have any clue what this "heritage" is that they are fighting so hard to maintain this symbolic representation of?
When you boil it down, it is the sad memory of the massive number of men killed by the war. More died in the civil war than in all the other wars through Korea, combined. As a percentage of population, it was worse than decimation for the southern soldiers. If things had worked out to where war could have been avoided or maybe even ended early with a minimum of casualties there wouldn't be such pain to remember.
Yes- it was a horrible war.
Although, according to The Civil War Trust Northern casualties were more numerous than Southern.
The north had a larger population so the percentages would still be lower. I've read that over 22% of southern men who were 20-24 years old in 1860 died because of the war. I saw that here.
-------------------- "Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward." Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lyda*Rose: Golden Key: quote: --Re the Southern heritage that people are looking back to: Not a Southerner, but it seems to be a (perceived) Golden Age.
If you weren't black.
What do they matter? I mean to a Southerner looking back at the golden era.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It's also true that most of the Civil War ended up being fought in the South. The Northern economy actually flourished producing war goods. Gettysburg is an exception and attempt to bring the battle North.
It's true that the flag means one thing to some white people, and another for other white people. The opinion of black people is pretty clear. It's a reminder of slavery and the terrorism that took place after the civil war and is still going on today.
What is remarkable to me is how quickly the movement to get the flag off of Capitol Grounds and off the shelves in stores.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
[an aside returning to an earlier part of the discussion]
Watching the news this morning, new licensing laws for air guns have just been passed here requiring a license that restricts ownership to a small range of legitimate purposes - in line with other firearms. I can't find anything online about the specific item of news that the bill has been passed, but here is a news item on the introduction of the bill
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Has it actually been passed yet? It looks more as if it has got to the final stage of the legislative process and is likely to be passed today - although it probably won't come into force for another year. See this. Another case of the media reporting news before it has quite happened, perhaps? [ 25. June 2015, 08:23: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Yes, that's what happens when I'm up early enough to watch the news from 6am. It's final vote is today, and no one seems to expect it not to pass after all the hammering out in committee. There will then need to be a period of time to actually get it into operation.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Mere Nick: quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: Do you have any clue what this "heritage" is that they are fighting so hard to maintain this symbolic representation of?
When you boil it down, it is the sad memory of the massive number of men killed by the war. More died in the civil war than in all the other wars through Korea, combined. As a percentage of population, it was worse than decimation for the southern soldiers. If things had worked out to where war could have been avoided or maybe even ended early with a minimum of casualties there wouldn't be such pain to remember.
That is certainly part of it, at least for some people—especially older people. But I think there's more. I'm trying to pull some thoughts together to see if I can be focused enough to avoid writing a dissertation.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Once I worked with a guy who was on the vestry of a church in Virginia. They were reprinting the leaflet that goes into the rack in the narthex: the About St. James leaflet, with the history of the place, and he asked me to read it for typos. It referred to the War of Northern Aggression and the Valiant South, in a really archaic way. I pointed out to him that if the goal of the leaflet was to welcome newcomers, this was going to send them out to never return. He said that the mainstay of the church was an elderly lady, the richest congregant and the owner of the lot next to the church upon which everyone parked on Sundays. And she, a staunch Confederate still, would not permit an update of the wording. Everyone was waiting for her to pass to her reward.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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