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Source: (consider it) Thread: Rachel Dolezal and Race Identity
irish_lord99
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I've hearing a lot about Rachel Dolezal lately,

Short BBC blurb here.

From all the language I've heard, she says that she 'identifies as Black' (even though she once sued a University based on her own caucasian race. ) not that she 'identifies with black culture.'

A lot of comparisons have been drawn between her situation and that of Bruce Jenner.

Her claims do not sit well with me, and I think the reason is this: a person born any color or race can learn to fit into, be accepted into, or even assume the dominant culture of another race; but to lay such an emphasis on the claim that she is 'actually black' and was accidentally born white would imply that there are intrinsic qualities to each race and she was born with the wrong set of qualities.

Whether she means to or not, using the term 'identify' implies that she feels there is a biological difference between black and white similar to the way biological difference between a man and a woman. It's implying that white people act the way they do because they are genetically white, and black people act the way they do because they are genetically black. We've heard this before.

In the end, her position seems racist to me. I would have no objection to her saying she 'gets along better in African-American culture' or some-such thing, but that doesn't seem to be what she's saying. Or is it what she's 'really' saying, and I'm just way off the mark here?

I'm not married to my position on this, which is why I wanted to open it up for discussion and see what shippies thought?

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cliffdweller
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We talked about this a bit on the "what are the limits" thread.

This particular case is, I think, complicated by so many other factors and unknowns that we really can't extrapolate anything from it to anyone beyond Rachel Dolezal. The fact, unlike Caitlyn Jenner, that we don't have lots of other people coming out to share similar stories also suggests this is something unique to Dolezal.

As the story has unfolded, it appears that Dolezals may (or may not-- everything is so murky and shrouded in speculation) be a part of the Bill Gothard "train up a child" movement. This is a strange fundamentalist group w/in the US (number of my peers in my teen years were a part).

Children who grew up in the movement have identified similarities between their own families and the Dolezal family-- most specifically physical and sexual abuse (including "blanket training", as well as an interest in adoption which often leads to adopted children being punished more severely than biological children. Some have hypothesized that this may explain Dolezal's odd behavior and family dynamics.

If in fact something like this is going on this weird "trans-racial" identity problem for Rachel may have something to do with the psychological dynamics of identifying with her abused adopted (black) siblings (one of whom was removed from the home and put in her custody) and the need to disassociate with her white biological parents.

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Enoch
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Irish Lord, in principle I agree with most of what you've said, and especially,
quote:
to lay such an emphasis on the claim that she is 'actually black' and was accidentally born white would imply that there are intrinsic qualities to each race and she was born with the wrong set of qualities.
Replace either 'black' or 'white' in that sentence with 'Aryan' and 'Jewish' and see what the effect is.

However, there are two other things curious about this. The first is something which I've asked on the other thread, and which no one has really answered. Over the years, many people, in places like the old South Africa, and I suspect Brazil and the southern states of the USA have put a lot of effort into 'passing for' white. Do we regard that as morally reprehensible? deception? wickedness?

If so, why? And if not, is there a difference between them and Rachel Dolezal? And if so, what is it and why is it different?

The other puzzle is that in the photographs of her, she doesn't look black.


Cliffdweller, I'm sorry. This may be unfair. But the writer of the article you've linked to reads as though in her own way she is as unbalanced and obsessed with her perception of her own life history as Rachel appears to be. What is 'reactive attachment disorder' for goodness sake? Is it a real condition or one of these things that people invent to give themselves an identity? What really is blanket training when you describe it objectively, and does it exist at all?

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
However, there are two other things curious about this. The first is something which I've asked on the other thread, and which no one has really answered. Over the years, many people, in places like the old South Africa, and I suspect Brazil and the southern states of the USA have put a lot of effort into 'passing for' white. Do we regard that as morally reprehensible? deception? wickedness?

If so, why? And if not, is there a difference between them and Rachel Dolezal? And if so, what is it and why is it different?

Possibly in some cases it may have been a decision based on knowing that in the culture they were currently in, they'd get better treatment and a better life if they could pass as a member of the dominant culture. Some may have been in situations of danger. Which is a different starting point from deciding that you no longer want to be a particular ethnicity, without any external pressure making you feel unhappy about your current one.

Is that morally reprehensible - I wouldn't say so. During times of persecution over the centuries people belonging to various ethnic groups have often disguised themselves out of fear for their wellbeing. After a while some would find their new identity second nature, which is probably what happened to Rachel: she lived it so thoroughly that she believed it. She probably still does to some extent even now, after years of it. It's not clear what her starting point was, though, as it's unlikely to have been personally experienced (first-hand) racism that prompted this.

[ 20. June 2015, 16:35: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

The other puzzle is that in the photographs of her, she doesn't look black.

In early photos, not at all. In contemporary photos, very much so. So clearly there was an attempt to transform her appearance in some way to "pass" as black.


quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Cliffdweller, I'm sorry. This may be unfair. But the writer of the article you've linked to reads as though in her own way she is as unbalanced and obsessed with her perception of her own life history as Rachel appears to be.

I'm as tentative about it as you are, which is why I tried to be cautious in raising it. The movement the author's family is a part of is odd and disturbing (again, many childhood friends were involved) and has been associated with recent charges of sexual abuse and extreme (even deadly) child abuse. If even part of what has been alleged is true, that may explain why both the author and Rachel are having troubles (albeit manifested in very different ways) dealing with the ghosts of the past. If these charges (from different players in different places with no other connection) are not true, it raises even more questions in an already weirdly murky situation. But it does bear closer examination (which is why DSS is investigating).


quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What is 'reactive attachment disorder' for goodness sake? Is it a real condition or one of these things that people invent to give themselves an identity? What really is blanket training when you describe it objectively, and does it exist at all?

Reactive attachment disorder is an identified diagnostic category of the APA, describing a rare but heartbreaking condition among children who experienced extreme neglect in early childhood. In some (again, quite rare) cases, that neglect might happen in orphanages (particularly in the developing world) where resources were so minimal as to cause an extreme level of neglect. The suggestion is that the "train up a child" movement, which advocates for adoption, has misused this diagnosis as a cover for extreme forms of child abuse. (It should be noted that the sorts of abusive punishments advocated, or alleged to have been advocated, by the movement for the disorder would be very much counter-indicated).

This wikilink* describes blanket training and the link to Train up a Child, as well as denouncing of the method and book by the Am. Academy of Pediatrics.

*warning* not for the faint of heart.

Again, whether this is what's going on with the Dolezal family, no one knows. It's just one more murky piece of data in an already bizarre and murky situation. And again, the fact that Rachel appears to be an outlier-- we don't have scores or dozens or even two or three others coming forward to describe similar "trans-racial" experiences-- suggests that whatever is going on with her, it is something rather unique and not generalizable. But the allegations of abuse should (and apparently are) be explored further.

[ 20. June 2015, 17:10: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

Is that morally reprehensible - I wouldn't say so. During times of persecution over the centuries people belonging to various ethnic groups have often disguised themselves out of fear for their wellbeing. After a while some would find their new identity second nature, which is probably what happened to Rachel: she lived it so thoroughly that she believed it. She probably still does to some extent even now, after years of it. It's not clear what her starting point was, though, as it's unlikely to have been personally experienced (first-hand) racism that prompted this.

Not first hand, but possibly close 2nd hand if her adopted siblings experienced racially-based abuse as has been alleged.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
it raises even more questions in an already weirdly murky situation. But it does bear closer examination (which is why DSS is investigating).

Weird and murky are apt, but understatements. If the suppositions about the family are anywhere near true, it certainly would go towards explaining the whole thing.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

This wikilink* describes blanket training and the link to Train up a Child, as well as denouncing of the method and book by the Am. Academy of Pediatrics.

*warning* not for the faint of heart.

Fucked up beyond description. If there is a Hell, there must be a place near the bottom for people who subscribe to this form of child-rearing.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

we don't have scores or dozens or even two or three others coming forward to describe similar "trans-racial" experiences-- suggests that whatever is going on with her, it is something rather unique and not generalizable.

Not quite unique, but rare.

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Tortuf
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Before you criticize a person for calling theirself black, please be so kind as to define what it means to be black.

I'll wait.

If you mean, as did a columnist for the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, that she got the "cool" bits of being black without the bad parts of being black - there may be a point.

If you mean she is not entitled to pretend she is black without actually being black, I believe it is really none of my business. I don't recall anywhere in the teachings of Jesus where he said it is a good idea to judge someone else as that kind of thing heightens your spiritual progress.

Perhaps I am wrong.

In the end though, I think any identification of a "race" is a dangerous thing. God created us all. The choice of color palette is therefore God's business. I for one am not up to critiquing God on God's handiwork.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Fucked up beyond description. If there is a Hell, there must be a place near the bottom for people who subscribe to this form of child-rearing.

A place only slightly above the place for those who write and profit from teaching it.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Before you criticize a person for calling theirself black, please be so kind as to define what it means to be black.

I'll wait.

If you mean, as did a columnist for the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, that she got the "cool" bits of being black without the bad parts of being black - there may be a point.

If you mean she is not entitled to pretend she is black without actually being black, I believe it is really none of my business. I don't recall anywhere in the teachings of Jesus where he said it is a good idea to judge someone else as that kind of thing heightens your spiritual progress.

Perhaps I am wrong.

In the end though, I think any identification of a "race" is a dangerous thing. God created us all. The choice of color palette is therefore God's business. I for one am not up to critiquing God on God's handiwork.

Advocating for a "race-blind" society sound good-- and indeed, in theory IS good, for the reasons noted above. But in practice what tends to happen is to only allow the continuation of "white privilege"-- because white culture is seen as "neutral", the default, and anything added is racially motivated. It also falsely assumes that at this point in time, things are now equal so we can move forward without consideration of race. To go back to the foot race analogy, it is as if one side has been cheating in the race, and therefore gains a significant advantage. The cheater gets called on it, apologizes and pledges no more cheating. The race is then allowed to proceed-- from the vantage point where the cheating was called-- i.e. with the cheater significantly ahead. Even if no further cheating occurs, this is obviously unfair-- the cheater has to give up those ill-gotten advantages for it to be a fair race. Advocates for "race blindness" tend to overlook that.

It will be lovely to get to a place where "race-blind" can work, but we aren't there yet.

[ 20. June 2015, 18:06: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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LeRoc

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quote:
cliffdweller: Advocating for a "race-blind" society sound good-- and indeed, in theory IS good, for the reasons noted above.
I am not in favour of a race-blind society. Diversity should be celebrated, not denied. Prejudice and discrimination based on race should be eliminated, not race itself.

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Gramps49
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Rachel Dolezal has been a fixture in the Spokane Community. I live 90 klicks from Spoane so get a lot of news through their media. Here are several articles from a local paper (Racheal had been a contributor to the paper).

The Real Rachel Dolezal

[ 20. June 2015, 18:27: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

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mr cheesy
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Being black in the USA is neither just a social construct nor something one can put down by changing your hair.

As a white woman, she could work for the rights of people of colour. But what she cannot do is be a person of colour, that is simple deception.

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Gramps49
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Sorry, I was distracted while posting above

The Rachel We Knew

76 false and/or problematic statements by Rachel Dolezal

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Twilight

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There's something about Rachel Dolezal that seems incredibly sad to me. I understand why some black people are saying she has cheated somehow, but I hope the people who are so angry at her will consider that her "deception," seems to come from a good or caring place.

Whatever style of parenting she was raised under, I think it would be hard for a little girl who loved her siblings to go to school and learn that, in recent history, people who looked like her were horribly cruel to people who looked like her darker brothers and sisters. Most white people have felt a certain amount of guilt over this, it would be so much worse if it was this close to home.

I think it's time to drop racial terms as "types," of people. Rachel's "passing," just emphasizes how meaningless all those descriptions of race are. If she could be seen as black because she wore a foundation no darker than most summer tans and permed her hair, then what on earth are we even talking about?

Denying that there is such a thing as race, is not the same as denying that there is racism. People hate other people for all sorts of reasons and one of them is hatred of people who share a similar set of physical characteristics. That's a reason to quit gathering those characteristics together and labeling them.

The idea that we need to keep such labels around in order to punish light skinned people for their "privilege" is intrinsically unfair. Maybe it's that sort of thinking that caused Rachel to want to hide her whiteness.

No one can help the way they are born, whether it's beautiful, ugly, tall, short, light or dark. We should be trying to look past those superficial traits, not harboring either resentment or favor based on them.

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HCH
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As I understand it, she does not simply assert that she identifies as black (indeed, a poorly-defined term), but she also has been decidedly rude to her parents. She has indicated doubts as to whether her biological parents, who bore her and raised her, are indeed her parents.

As I see it, she may, if she wishes, change her political party or her hair color, or she may have a sex-change operation, or she may decide that she is actually of a different sexual orientation--all her own choice and none of our business--but she is not entitled to her own facts. If she now asserts that she is of African descent, this can be checked by DNA testing and it will be verified or denied.

In any case, her rudeness to her parents is not a good thing.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

The idea that we need to keep such labels around in order to punish light skinned people for their "privilege" is intrinsically unfair. Maybe it's that sort of thinking that caused Rachel to want to hide her whiteness..

No one is suggesting that, so I doubt very much to do with Dolezal's case. Recognizing the role that white privilege has played in the social inequities that still exist, and asking that at least an attempt be made to balance the playing field before claiming the slate has been wiped clean, is not about "punishment", it's about honesty and reconciliation.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
As I understand it, she does not simply assert that she identifies as black (indeed, a poorly-defined term), but she also has been decidedly rude to her parents. She has indicated doubts as to whether her biological parents, who bore her and raised her, are indeed her parents.

...In any case, her rudeness to her parents is not a good thing.

Have you read any of the allegations of the particular sorts of racially-based abuse that are alleged to have taken place (see link upthread), including the possibility that Rachel was forced to mete out some of that abuse? If the allegations prove to be true, would that change at all your perception of her response/ attempts (perhaps subconscious) to disassociate herself from her parents?

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Eutychus
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hosting/

This seems like a good time to post the usual reminder not to make potentially libellous statements and to refer to reputable third-party sources rather than repeating allegations in detail here.

There's plenty to discuss without speculating on the specific domestic circumstances that may or may not have played a part in this tragicomedy.

/hosting

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Soror Magna
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Rachel Dolezal is clearly white. Why? Because if she were a black woman, whatever her challenges or accomplishments, we probably wouldn't even know her name.

#SayHerName

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irish_lord99
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Before you criticize a person for calling theirself black, please be so kind as to define what it means to be black.

I'll wait.

If you mean, as did a columnist for the Atlanta Journal and Constitution, that she got the "cool" bits of being black without the bad parts of being black - there may be a point.

In the end though, I think any identification of a "race" is a dangerous thing. God created us all. The choice of color palette is therefore God's business. I for one am not up to critiquing God on God's handiwork.

Well, you're rather making my point for me...for her to 'identify as black' requires her to make a contrast and comparison of white vs. black.

quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
If you mean she is not entitled to pretend she is black without actually being black, I believe it is really none of my business. I don't recall anywhere in the teachings of Jesus where he said it is a good idea to judge someone else as that kind of thing heightens your spiritual progress.

A: She's not pretending, according to her
B: It's a noteworthy topic for discussion as it has the potential to turn into a larger trend
C: I specifically criticized her position on the issue, not her herself. A person may arrive at an erroneous or harmful position without sin. Indeed, I have more and more sympathy for her personally as I read more about her upbringing; but that doesn't mean I find her argument for 'race identity' to be valid.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:

B: It's a noteworthy topic for discussion as it has the potential to turn into a larger trend

I don't see any basis for anticipating any larger trend here.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Prejudice and discrimination based on race should be eliminated, not race itself.

My assumption is that the thing that we call "race" will naturally be eliminated by interbreeding. The number of people who describe themselves as "mixed race" is increasing. When they become the significant majority, "race" has stopped being a useful concept, and skin colour and shape of facial features becomes no more significant than eye or hair colour in people's identity.

Of course, the near-complete elimination of racial prejudice is likely to be a necessary precondition for this level of racial mixing.

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Golden Key
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I haven't dug into this at all, so I'm just going by news snippets I've heard. I don't know what drove her, but the various possible family situations mentioned seem plausible to me.

There are also lots of people who identify much more strongly with a culture other than their own. They may go live in the culture, and *live* the culture--doing all the things that are done. Or they may try to bring the culture into their home life, with decorations, music, literature, and food from the culture.

As to actually passing yourself off as someone from your beloved, desired culture, First Nations activist Grey Owl comes to mind. In the movie version of his life, there comes a point where everything is going to come out. He goes to a FN leader, who tells him "A man becomes what he dreams--you have dreamed well".

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Barnabas62
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Hasn't she just been caught out in a pretence? Much of the following looks like rationalisation after the fact.

Of course there may be complex nature-nurture reasons for her behaviour. That seems obvious. And these may provide genuine mitigation. I wouldn't have thought any of that would have changed the nature of the pretence.

What's the difference between a pretence and a delusion? In any particular case, that might take some working out. But this one looks like pretence to me.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But this one looks like pretence to me.

IIRC, she still says she identifies as black. But as she initially stumbled over the question and refused to answer, ISTM she is very ware of the problems with this claim. May not be an either or situation.
Don't see this getting properly unraveled before everyone loses interest, though.

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Moo

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She now insists she's black, but some years ago she sued Howard University for discriminating against her because she was white.

She wants to have it both ways.

Moo

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

The idea that we need to keep such labels around in order to punish light skinned people for their "privilege" is intrinsically unfair. Maybe it's that sort of thinking that caused Rachel to want to hide her whiteness..

No one is suggesting that, so I doubt very much to do with Dolezal's case. Recognizing the role that white privilege has played in the social inequities that still exist, and asking that at least an attempt be made to balance the playing field before claiming the slate has been wiped clean, is not about "punishment", it's about honesty and reconciliation.
"Wipe the slate clean," certainly sounds like someone has done wrong and is being punished for past behavior to me. That's fine as far as individuals who actually have done something wrong but using skin color as a crime in itself is always wrong.

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"Celebrating diversity," is a wonderful idea and something we should hold in our hearts, but doing it through schools and laws has just increased a feeling of "other," when we should be "celebrating the melting pot," of our society. Ask my niece, who was adopted from China, how she felt on "diversity," days at her elementary school. She knew nothing of China. In her mind she was a little American girl who fit right in with all her little Barbie playing girlfriends and all of a sudden her whole class was, "looking at her like she was a freak." Ask my son, who throughout grades 1 through 7 was best friends with the little ("black" though we never referred to him as that) boy from next door. The emphasis on roots and history and diversity that they encountered during the middle school years put a permanent awkwardness between them. These were all American children. How patronizing for the teacher (Irish immigrant family circa 1910) to ask the black children (here since the 18th century) to talk about Africa as though they were new arrivals. What are the little white children expected to do during these celebrations of diversity?

Adults often go through a period when they want to travel to the country of their ancestors but little kids want to fit in, leave them alone and let them do it without labeling them as different types of Americans. Why do we have African-Americans, Chinese-Americans, and not English-Americans and Scottish-Americans? All this ethnic and racial labeling needs to stop, starting with police and other authority figures.

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Curiosity killed ...

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What is 'reactive attachment disorder' for goodness sake? Is it a real condition or one of these things that people invent to give themselves an identity?

Enoch, reactive attachment disorder, RAD, is known in the UK. I have worked with a couple of children with the diagnosis, often adopted from a difficult childhood but left with difficulties relating to others.

Currently I am working with a number of young people diagnosed as ASC (on the autistic spectrum) and wondering if they are really suffering from RAD. That manifestation as an emotional disconnect is one of the aspects of an ASC diagnosis. The children I know have often had very difficult childhoods and are not necessarily continuing to show the traditional triad when given support to move beyond some of the issues.

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
There's something about Rachel Dolezal that seems incredibly sad to me. I understand why some black people are saying she has cheated somehow, but I hope the people who are so angry at her will consider that her "deception," seems to come from a good or caring place.

Here, I think, is the central problem obscured by all this discussion of race.

Dolezal has been living a lie. As far as can be determined, she is "white," whatever that means, but has been living as a "black" (whatever that means). She has misled others about this aspect of her identity.

She claims to be, and others see her as, an advocate for racial justice, and God-if-there-is-one knows, we need such advocates in a country where Dylann Roof can shoot nine people in a Bible study.

Here's the central dilemma: Can we achieve justice through deception? How do we arrive at truth through lies? Do the ends actually justify the means?

At one level, Dolezal becomes just another white "hero" who swoops in to rescue poor oppressed blacks. She is the heroine of The Help, the upright white teacher who salvages a classroomfull of otherwise doomed young African-Americans. She's Atticus Finch in To Kill A Mockingbird. We've seen this trope a thousand times, with its ultimately oppressing message: YOU cannot do anything to help yourselves; you must depend on US to save you.

The difference between allies in the struggle for justice and saviors from the wicked oppressors can look inconsequential in practice, but is actually immense.

When the oppressor sets the oppressed free, power is exercised (and retained) by the oppressor. When the oppressed free themselves, power is exercised (and claimed) by the oppressed.

Rachel Dolezal had choices many others do not. She could, with relatively minor cosmetic changes, "pass" as a member of either white or black communities. That gave her options not available to millions of African-American women. She used her options to gain, through denial of her original identity, a position of advantage in her assumed identity. I suspect most of us would call that fraud.

Options are exactly what the oppressor denies to the oppressed.

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Twilight

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Porridge, I didn't mean to say that I thought Rachel's deception was okay, just that I can understand her motives to some degree and how she might have become so mixed up.

Due to the fact that Rachel grew up with black brothers and sisters the central message of your post, i.e. white people are wrong no matter what they do -- Atticus Finch is wrong because he has made the young black man he defended dependent on his eloquence, the young white journalist in "The Help," is wrong because she is telling a story that black women should tell for herself -- all combine to say that she will be hated and despised by black people (her own siblings!) no matter how much she tries to help.

No wonder Rachel no longer wanted to identify as a white person -- they're all terrible oppressors. They are either cruel racists or patronizing snobs who hold themselves superior.

Those of you who want to keep "Race," alive for the sake of singling out certain people to "help" them, should know that you are putting yourselves in that same group. You are saying that without lower college entrance standards or quotas in the work place, black people wont be able to make it.

Keeping race classifications alive also helps fuel the white supremacists who in turn prey on weak minded people like the Charleston murderer. What if he had been raised in a country where he hadn't been taught that people with dark skin and curly hair are a separate breed from him? What if he hadn't read endless newspaper articles where people of this certain classification were either said to have committed crimes or been victims of profiling? Who then would he focus his hatred toward? Who would he accuse of being rapists and ruining the country? He wouldn't have a name for them, he wouldn't be certain which people in that church were different from him or why. There wouldn't have even been a church in the community known as a "black" church.

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
. . . white people are wrong no matter what they do -- Atticus Finch is wrong because he has made the young black man he defended dependent on his eloquence, the young white journalist in "The Help," is wrong because she is telling a story that black women should tell for herself -- all combine to say that she will be hated and despised by black people (her own siblings!) no matter how much she tries to help.

No wonder Rachel no longer wanted to identify as a white person -- they're all terrible oppressors. They are either cruel racists or patronizing snobs who hold themselves superior.

First, the white savior-heroes are despised and hated by very few; they tend to be “legendized,” just like the character of Atticus Finch in the film. When the credits roll, we're all, oppressed and privileged alike, meant to admire this man, not hate him. Where in the film is the discussion of the incredible courage it would have taken for his client, to say nothing of the client's family and community, to proceed with the defense, knowing what outrages would be visited on them for failing to accept as inevitable his death sentence?

Second, I'm not saying white people are wrong whatever they do. It's fine to join, as a person of privilege, in the struggle for justice and equality. I suspect many Shippies have done so, and have made small efforts in that direction myself.

What's not fine is to portray those who do this to the exclusion of noticing and raising into public view efforts made by members of the oppressed group, which is pretty much what the movies mentioned do. This "savior-hero" mentality pervades our individualistic US culture, and the way we tell our history shows this. Every US high-schooler "knows" that Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves; how many know about some 200,000 African-American Union solders, most paid substantially less than their white counterparts, who fought in any number of battles including the attack on Ft. Henry? How many know about their struggles within the Union military to be treated as equals, or even to assume combat roles? It’s when we focus on privileged savior-heroes to the exclusion of the heroism and sacrifice exhibited by the oppressed themselves that we do disservice to everyone concerned.

Imagine if Rachel Dolezal joined NAACP as a white woman, and thereafter achieved her leadership role. That action sends a different message. It says, “I join this cause because I believe it to be just; I join cognizant of privilege and its evils, understand that my actions may mean surrendering some of this, and nevertheless embrace this struggle against unearned privilege and for innate equality.”

Currently, it looks to me as if she actually used her privilege to “shape-shift” into oppressed status for her own advancement. I hope I’m wrong; maybe she does in fact have serious identity / mental health issues. Maybe, for that matter, there’s far more here than meets the eye.

Nevertheless, I return to the underlying question: does the (potential) end – racial equality – justify any and all means of obtaining it?

[ 21. June 2015, 17:12: Message edited by: Porridge ]

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
She now insists she's black, but some years ago she sued Howard University for discriminating against her because she was white.

She wants to have it both ways.

I wonder if maybe that was (partly) wanting to be accepted as black, finding she wasn't, and lashing out?

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But this one looks like pretence to me.

IIRC, she still says she identifies as black.

The difference with e.g. transgendered or political self-identification and what Rachel Dolezal has been doing is pretty obvious to me. "Here is my father - o whoops well not really, now you know" was exacerbating a pretence already in place. And very damaging to claims of sincerity.

Or to take another ancient example; when Kennedy said (in lousy German) "I am a Berliner" his identification was political, not a pretence over birth and birthplace.

None of this means that I don't have sympathy for her previous confusion and present plight. Some mistakes are pretty hard to recover from.

[ 21. June 2015, 21:10: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But this one looks like pretence to me.

IIRC, she still says she identifies as black.

The difference with e.g. transgendered or political self-identification and what Rachel Dolezal has been doing is pretty obvious to me. "Here is my father - o whoops well not really, now you know" was exacerbating a pretence already in place. And very damaging to claims of sincerity.

Or to take another ancient example; when Kennedy said (in lousy German) "I am a Berliner" his identification was political, not a pretence over birth and birthplace.

None of this means that I don't have sympathy for her previous confusion and present plight. Some mistakes are pretty hard to recover from.

Yeah, forgot about the father thing when I made my post. So nonplussed about this whole thing.
Difficult to dismiss pretence. Just trying to understand. Perhaps is an inevitable occurrence. Whilst this is uncommon in regards to being black, it is less so in pretending American Indian.

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Golden Key
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Don't a lot of non-black kids who are into hiphop and rap soak up black culture?

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lilBuddha
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Isn't the same thing as pretending to be black.

ETA: That is not black culture any more than polka is white culture. It is culture that came out of communities that happen to be a certain colour in a certain location.

[ 22. June 2015, 02:00: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Golden Key
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lilBuddha--

I'm not really into hiphop, so apologies if I put this awkwardly or am mistaken.

But my understanding, over the last 20 yrs. or so, is that a lot of non-African-American kids identify very strongly with (perceptions of) urban African-American culture. So dreadlocks, braids, certain clothing, etc.

Maybe it doesn't go very deep. I don't have the experience to know. Maybe it goes no deeper than Goth makeup--then again, some Goths go very deeply into that culture.

I'm just raising questions to think through.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lilBuddha--

I'm not really into hiphop, so apologies if I put this awkwardly or am mistaken.

But my understanding, over the last 20 yrs. or so, is that a lot of non-African-American kids identify very strongly with (perceptions of) urban African-American culture. So dreadlocks, braids, certain clothing, etc.

Maybe it doesn't go very deep. I don't have the experience to know. Maybe it goes no deeper than Goth makeup--then again, some Goths go very deeply into that culture.

I'm just raising questions to think through.

As lil Buddha there's a difference between adopting (some would say appropriating) various aspects of a culture and passing oneself off as a member of that community. Both are controversial, but appropriating culture does not involve deception.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lilBuddha--

I'm not really into hiphop, so apologies if I put this awkwardly or am mistaken.

But my understanding, over the last 20 yrs. or so, is that a lot of non-African-American kids identify very strongly with (perceptions of) urban African-American culture. So dreadlocks, braids, certain clothing, etc.

Maybe it doesn't go very deep. I don't have the experience to know. Maybe it goes no deeper than Goth makeup--then again, some Goths go very deeply into that culture.

I'm just raising questions to think through.

The wearing of dreadlocks or dashikis by non-African-Americans does not provide the wearer with the experience of being African-American. It does not expose one to the hostility and discrimination actual African-Americans deal with, in assorted ways, on a daily basis. It does not lead to one's parents cautioning one about how to behave when one is stopped by a cop for Walking While Black. It does not root one in the life of the 'hood, or the life of the African-American church, where (I can assure you from personal experience) worship and community go forward somewhat differently than from the white middle-class mainstream church.

I can go out dressed in an Afghan burqua. I can speak a few words of Arabic or Pashto. I can learn some Afghan songs. Doesn't make me an Afghan woman; doesn't provide me with any real understanding of that woman's culture, worldview, or experience.

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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Golden Key
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No, it doesn't make the person black (or whatever). But the individual might *feel* as if it did, and therefore think of themself as black--even if they never quite verbalize it.

I'm not saying any of it is good, or that the person is picking up the actual, full experience.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lilBuddha--

I'm not really into hiphop, so apologies if I put this awkwardly or am mistaken.


No worries, it is a complicated thing. Just making the point that Black culture can be as varied as White culture.
The boundaries are varied and far from universal or even, sometimes, real.
We are well and truly a fucked up species.

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art dunce
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I have a large family that has dealt with a great deal of both gender based and racial/ethnic based discrimination and I wonder if Jenner would sign up to be a "woman" if he was to to reduced to powerless chattel or if Dolenzar would choose to identify as "black" during Jim Crow. I think they're tourists.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
I have a large family that has dealt with a great deal of both gender based and racial/ethnic based discrimination and I wonder if Jenner would sign up to be a "woman" if he was to to reduced to powerless chattel or if Dolenzar would choose to identify as "black" during Jim Crow. I think they're tourists.

As much as it's impossible to know another's heart/motives, I don't sense that that is true of either person, certainly not Jenner.

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mousethief

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Having a transgendered person in my immediate family I'd say that's an ignorant and damaging remark.

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Golden Key
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Bruce Jenner went through a lot to get to be Caitlyn, to finally have all aspects in line with each other.

And she's had gender-reassignment surgery, so she's hardly a tourist.

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--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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mr cheesy
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You know, I am starting to wonder about my first reaction to this. Maybe by going through something with others gives you some kind of inherited status. Being a tourist implies going to a few protest marches for the ride, being committed means having your harms blown off by a letter bomb whilst standing against apartheid as a white priest.

So if this lady (hypothetically, I know there are more complex issues in play in the story) voluntarily took on blackness and suffered persecution for it, does she not then inherit some kind of status with that community?

If not, does that mean that the white priest in SA can never be a real part of the liberation struggle even though he has taken on the suffering implicit in doing just that. If he went to live in a township and took on all the disadvantages of that.. would the only problem come if he then claimed to "be black"?

Do you see what I mean?

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You know, I am starting to wonder about my first reaction to this. Maybe by going through something with others gives you some kind of inherited status. Being a tourist implies going to a few protest marches for the ride, being committed means having your harms blown off by a letter bomb whilst standing against apartheid as a white priest.

So if this lady (hypothetically, I know there are more complex issues in play in the story) voluntarily took on blackness and suffered persecution for it, does she not then inherit some kind of status with that community?

If not, does that mean that the white priest in SA can never be a real part of the liberation struggle even though he has taken on the suffering implicit in doing just that. If he went to live in a township and took on all the disadvantages of that.. would the only problem come if he then claimed to "be black"?

Do you see what I mean?

Not sure if I do, but two points:

1. Dolezal and the white priest get to choose. Not so the folk who live in the township or the racist society. Having chosen to live/work among the oppressed, both remain free to move back if/when the going gets too tough.

2. Privileged eople can be allies, acknowledging that they have different experience / privilege / choices, but publicly renounce these in solidarity with the oppressed.

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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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mr cheesy
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Well, that's true - but then clearly the longer they have lived in that situation, the harder it is to leave it. If there are implied or actual threats of violence, these might not be avoided even if one did actually leave. Even if nobody else tried to kill the priest subsequently, he still has to live his life without his hands. Life cannot ever return to the way it was.

I think the point on renounced privilege is a good one, I have no idea how to assess the information relating to the Dolezai case, but for the general situation - how much renouncement is enough renouncement?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
... Dolezal and the white priest get to choose. Not so the folk who live in the township or the racist society. Having chosen to live/work among the oppressed, both remain free to move back if/when the going gets too tough. ...

Dolezai and the white priest aren't the same.

The white priest is not trying to pass for black or coloured.

If we go back to the question I was asking, Dolezai happens to have the complexion that with careful make up and the right hair stylist, she can pass for coloured. I gather that in the US, that makes her black. Public opinion is saying that is reprehensible.

If a person with black or coloured parents, embedded in those communities, whether those are legally constrained or not, happens to be born with a fairly pale complexion, there is a long tradition of their seeking to pass for the next ethnicity up the social scale.

Most of us, I hope, don't regard that as morally reprehensible.

There is a difference of course. In one case a person is seeking to put themselves up a social grade, and in the other, there isn't. But that's no more than Hyacinth Bucket was doing.

I agree that there's something that sounds a bit phoney about Rachel Dolezai, but I'm not sure that we can condemn her too far without surreptitiously accepting intellectual understandings of race that go with old South Africa and 1930s Nuremberg.

I'd suggest that the only moral ground on which we can really criticise her is the same one that goes with bluffing your way into jobs which you aren't qualified for. But even that involves agreeing with the idea that 'race' should be as legitimate a job requirement as being qualified as a medical doctor, say.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged



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