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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Rachel Dolezal and Race Identity
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Bibliophile
Shipmate
# 18418
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
maybe I am being fanciful
Ya think! Seriously dude, this whole thread is an interesting topic but without wishing to be disrespectful I think if you are starting to attribute Kanye West's singing style to slavery then maybe you're getting a little carried away.
Posts: 635 | Registered: Jun 2015
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
When you say you don't derive benefit from the current power structure, you seem to be thinking in just terms of wealth/class.
I don't know if it's 'many of us' or 'some of us', but I'll stick with 'some' - but for some of us, that's all there is. I live in a part of the world which is 95% White British. Of those 5%, those who aren't white, tend to be British, and those who aren't British, tend to be white.
Our primary discriminants are accent and postcode. I have an iffy postcode, but because I was born in the south, I can pass locally as 'posh' - as can my kids, despite being born here. As soon as we travel to That London or other places down south, we tend to clutter up things with our coarse northern ways.
Certainly, as far as my children and their cohort are concerned, colour and immigrant status are pretty much ignored. The divisions of class and wealth cut across those factors.
I worked with a young white man who told me, and an older black woman, that racism was over. That it was a thing of the past. We turned to each other with a "Seriously, WTF"? glance and then, gently gave him examples of why he might be just a teensy bit incorrect. Never did convince him.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It depends where you live. I could take him to some northern towns, not a million miles from Manchester, where the racism crackles in the air like electricity. People walk on egg-shells (well, some people do), so as not to start riots. Some people want to start riots.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
maybe I am being fanciful
Ya think! Seriously dude, this whole thread is an interesting topic but without wishing to be disrespectful I think if you are starting to attribute Kanye West's singing style to slavery then maybe you're getting a little carried away.
'Without wishing to be disrespectful', yeah, yeah, I've heard that one before.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Doc Tor, I'm not sure Lemn Sissay would agree with you. He has Ethiopian parents, but was placed in foster care in Wigan. He was 17 before he met another black person, and they were Afro-Caribbean.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I am coming to this thread late. Sorry if I missed the point I am about to make.
What is the matter if someone wants to adopt another ethnicity or racial identity? People appropriate culture all the time. They also appropriate identity. If this woman feels black, why can't she be? It isn't appopriation of something if you're identifying as an insider.
I am writing this as someone who has lots of trouble understanding race before and after while visiting in rural Nova Scotia where my fair skinned sister and black husband (whose mother is mostly East Indian) have 2 sons. One with brown eyes and one with blue. So I'd say let this Rachel woman be whatever race feels she is. Without bringing up a DH, no one is supposed to question someone's gender identity or sexuality. Not seeing it different. I hope my nephews identify how ever they feel.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Holy crap! The preceding 5 pages of this thread have been this very discussion and you want it either distilled or re-argued?
Black isn't a culture, it is a colour. Black culture is really black cultures.
I can say I'm a green Martian all I wish, doesn't make me one.
Mixed people can assert whatever heritage they choose, they will still be associated with the one they most look like.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I worked with a young white man who told me, and an older black woman, that racism was over. That it was a thing of the past. We turned to each other with a "Seriously, WTF"? glance and then, gently gave him examples of why he might be just a teensy bit incorrect. Never did convince him.
I fail to see where I said racism was over.
What I did say was that for my children, and their friends (be they white immigrants or BME British), race and nationality isn't the basis for discrimination, whereas class and wealth most assuredly is. They are aware that racism exists, obviously.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
npfiss,
Let me put it another way. Barack Obama will be marked in history as the first black US president. Not the 44th white one.
Had he said during his run, that he was white,* he would not be president. Unravel that and maybe you will begin to understand.
*As in just white, not mixed.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Doc Tor, I'm not sure Lemn Sissay would agree with you. He has Ethiopian parents, but was placed in foster care in Wigan. He was 17 before he met another black person, and they were Afro-Caribbean.
Well, I've now read that article, and I don't know whether Sissay would agree with me or not. He's a year younger than me, so we're of the same generation - I'd say that my generation have had to learn not to be racist: he speaks eloquently and bitterly about the racist abuse he suffered growing up.
My children? They'd have to learn to be racist, and they certainly won't get it from me.
Last word from the man himself:
quote:
Now, he tells me, people in the city stop him on the street to tell him they are proud of him; and he is amazed by the outpouring of affection since the chancellorship was announced. His face grows still, and he says quietly that it is beautiful when a city treats you “like a family would”.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Doc Tor,
Wasn't saying that you were denying racism. Just that point of view is relative.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm not disagreeing. But UK experience is about as homogeneous as US experience. And it is also age-related - everyone have a 'racist gran' is a stereotype here.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A lot of your statements give me an impression of a state of inevitability that I just don't buy into. That includes your skepticism that "the oppressors" won't ever change. That, to me, is you treating people like a single bloc.
Another straw man. Ho hum. I can't be arsed to continue unpacking your straw men.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Sorry, that wasn't the best article about Lemn Sissay. I saw him record the UK version of the programme mentioned in the article, and he was very much describing a racist upbringing and being more comfortable in his skin now, since he's discovered his roots. But he was saying he is safe and comfortable in Manchester and London, which are multicultural, and not so much in Wigan, still.
The black and mixed race teenagers I work with would say that racism is alive and well in London. Black kids are treated differently. There's another set of situations for the Asian / Muslim kids. The Muslim tutor who has experience in gang work says the way he teaches the youngsters to deal with the police is to think yourself white so you remove that racism from the situation to start with, and to be polite.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
That tutor probably has a good idea. If the cop is determined that every person of color is a "bad guy" it might not work, but for your average cop out there trying to stay safe, do the job, and go home whole, it would likely help diffuse possible animosity. If an officer comes up to a black kid (or kids) on the street in the general assumption that they may be up to something, it might be pretty disarming to to get a pleasant, straight reply without sarcasm and even maybe a "And how is your day going?" would be icing on the cake. Make it very difficult for the cop to see you as anything but another citizen. It would be worth a try. It might even jog a police officer out of the "us against them" mentality at least for a while.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Nobody is forgetting, or ignoring, or blind to, the catalogue of oppression suffered by American black people. They're just not drawing from that history the same conclusion as you are.
You seem here to be arguing the position that Victims Can Do No Wrong.
Where have I ever said anything that implies that? Unless you want to say that black people playing classical music is "wrong"? Is that what you mean? Otherwise please explain what you mean.
OK, try it as a question instead.
Do you or do you not believe that being a victim somehow alters the rights and wrongs of a situation ? That's what it sounds like you're saying when you talk about the need to recognise "power imbalance" and the like. The extreme form of that position is Victims Can Do No Wrong. Do you think that it's OK for members of an oppressed group to do things that would be otherwise morally dubious ? Is that the moral philosophy that you are putting forward ?
If you have a coherent moral position as to how victim-status transmutes right into wrong or vice versa, then please explain it to us. Because it's not self-evident.
Feel free to start another thread if it seems too much of a tangent. But just maybe that's the underlying difference between the two sides that emerge whenever the question of race crops up.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Russ,
You seem to be saying the victims are partially to blame. You seem to be employing the short skirt rape defence. But worse, with not short skirt in sight.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
OK, try it as a question instead.
I'd rather you answer my question first. Where did I say anything that implies that victims can do no wrong?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Holy crap! The preceding 5 pages of this thread have been this very discussion and you want it either distilled or re-argued?
Black isn't a culture, it is a colour. Black culture is really black cultures.
I can say I'm a green Martian all I wish, doesn't make me one.
Mixed people can assert whatever heritage they choose, they will still be associated with the one they most look like.
Except it isn't a just one colour. Some people don't look very dark and identify as black, with others with the same colour skin identifying as white. Would you have a colour chart? So, yes, hell yes, I think this needs to be rehashed.
Closer to where I live, there are Metis families with one fair skinned blue eyed kid whose sib is dark of hair and skin, and dark of skin enough to be easily identifiable as aboriginal.
What about swarthy Ukrainians who are as dark as Obama? This whole business is bankrupt.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
maybe I am being fanciful
Ya think! Seriously dude, this whole thread is an interesting topic but without wishing to be disrespectful I think if you are starting to attribute Kanye West's singing style to slavery then maybe you're getting a little carried away.
Actually, there's pretty good evidence that musical style is directly related to language: that the rhythms and cadences of the music of a culture are directly related to the rhythms and cadences of the spoken language of that culture.
Which isn't at all surprising given that one of the things that happens in music is the setting of words, but from what I've read it applies to instrumental music as well.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Not only that, but...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
ETA:Addressed to no prophet
Invent a time machine and go back and fix it.
What we have now is what we need to work with. And that isn't saying identity is completely voluntary.
Saying a person can just become whatever cultural identity they wish negates those who live that identity. Would you walk into a Blackfoot Reserve and proclaim you were Siksika?
Waking up one day and declaring you are black, what would that even mean? Your skin would have obviously not changed, so that that definition is incorrect.
Would you mean culturally? Which black culture? How is a pale person born in Saskatoon suddenly Jamaican? Or Ethiopian? Or suddenly acquire the experience of a lifetime of prejudice and disenfranchisement?
[ 29. June 2015, 00:15: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Do you or do you not believe that being a victim somehow alters the rights and wrongs of a situation ? That's what it sounds like you're saying when you talk about the need to recognise "power imbalance" and the like. The extreme form of that position is Victims Can Do No Wrong. Do you think that it's OK for members of an oppressed group to do things that would be otherwise morally dubious ? Is that the moral philosophy that you are putting forward ?
Most people believe that there's a right to self-defence. That's clearly a case in which someone is allowed to do something that would be otherwise morally dubious because they're a victim. So there's at least one largely uncontroversial situation in which being a victim alters the rights and wrongs of a situation.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Not only that, but...
A tree has many roots. That that would be one makes sense. but I will forgo building this tangent here.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
When you say you don't derive benefit from the current power structure, you seem to be thinking in just terms of wealth/class.
You are still much less likely to be killed by the state, accidentally or on purpose, and you will experience less harrassment on the street. These are significant benefits.
Okay, fair enough. I was not thinking of that at the time I formulated my post.
I wonder, though, how much of that harassment, killing, etc. is rooted in economic disparity?
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
If I'd been told by a respected community leader like Jesse Jackson that I'll never get that job because of my skin color,
I don't think that is his message. Could be wrong, I'm hardly an expert on him.
Forgive me, that was poorly worded on my part. I'm not familiar with him either, I was using him as an example of a respected black leader and pairing him with rhetoric I have heard but cannot remember the source of.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
The fact that the power structure of this country has been traditionally white doesn't benefit me or 99% of the white people I know. And the 1% were rich to begin with.
Not precisely true. You could more easily become middle class than a brown person. The doors are open wider for you. No red carpet, no valet to meet you at the door, perhaps. But the fence is not as high and the hounds are not waiting to be unleashed.
Even with Equal Employment Opportunity and Affirmative Action laws? Even with all the scholarships geared towards minorities and various associations of minority professionals? What more is needed to level the playing field? We keep using that term: "level the playing field" but I've yet to hear a practical explanation how to do that or if it's even possible at all?
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
If a significant portion of the upper class were black, do you think it would benefit lower class black people?
ISTM, yes it would help. It is easier to believe you might achieve something if others like you are already there.
Fair enough, makes sense to me.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
If so, when do we begin to judge by content of character, and not by the color of skin?
I would answer now, but I am not sure where you are going with this
Well, if it's wrong to say 'I'm colorblind, and I try to treat everyone the same' until the 'playing field is leveled'; then I'm personally stuck as to what to do next.
For example: If I someday find myself in a position where I'm hiring people; and a black guy comes in to interview, what do I do?
A: Judge him by the same standards I use for all the white candidates (character, not color)?
B: Award him points above his competitors because he's had a tougher road getting there (character with a color modifier)?
C: Base my decision on how the current ethnic diversity of my company compares to that of the surrounding area? (color, not character)
I know I don't do a good job of conveying tone in my posting, so I'd like to add, I'm not trying to be an argumentative ass, I really am groping around in the dark on race relations and how that plays out in my everyday life. The ship is a wonderful sounding board for trying to suss out these thoughts.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If anybody is interested in one way of looking at privilege that doesn't pretend that straight white males get all the breaks, and uses a metaphor familiar to many of us, here is an article that might help.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
For example: If I someday find myself in a position where I'm hiring people; and a black guy comes in to interview, what do I do?
A: Judge him by the same standards I use for all the white candidates (character, not color)?
B: Award him points above his competitors because he's had a tougher road getting there (character with a color modifier)?
C: Base my decision on how the current ethnic diversity of my company compares to that of the surrounding area? (color, not character)
This line of questioning generally assumes a few things.
One, that the person with the best CV/resume is the best person for the job. Having worked in several fields; technical, creative and trade, I can assure you this is not automatically true.
Two, that hiring a candidate who meets the criteria, but with a lower score than another candidate will have a poorer work product. Fact is, most jobs do not function this way.
If you truly want to level the playing field, it has to be a holistic approach. From education through employment.
I've heard many times "I do not hire by colour, I select the most qualified candidate". Well, the candidate with the best CV will most often be white. Why? Because they have had access to better schools, have more established connections, etc.
What you end up with is a society that doesn't "discriminate" but doesn't change stratification either.
White people can face the problems of poorer education and fewer connections, yes. But see mousethief's most excellent link for how that doesn't make things equal.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If anybody is interested in one way of looking at privilege that doesn't pretend that straight white males get all the breaks, and uses a metaphor familiar to many of us, here is an article that might help.
As much time as I have for Scalzi, I don't think he's right.
Certainly, if you're a rich white straight male, I'd agree. A poor white straight man has much more in common with a poor black straight man than he does a rich white straight man. Wealth makes everything easier: it doesn't care much about the colour of your skin, only the colour of your money.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I've heard many times "I do not hire by colour, I select the most qualified candidate". Well, the candidate with the best CV will most often be white. Why? Because they have had access to better schools, have more established connections, etc.
That sounds like some fairly high level jobs. The large majority of people are applying for positions where which school attended and "connections," don't enter into it at all. In these ordinary jobs, whether bank or school or business manager, almost everyone applying will have gone to one of the state universities and their references will be people the employer never heard of. No one applying at the local bank went to Harvard and is friends with a senator. Around here it's Ohio State graduates with their old boss at McDonald's, from while they were in High School, writing references. So "best qualified," is going to be the person who graduated, or has a masters, verses the one with fewer years of higher education plus job related experience. All those things being equal then things like speech and personality start playing a big part at which point good looks probably play a much bigger part than race.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
How is a pale person born in Saskatoon suddenly Jamaican? Or Ethiopian? Or suddenly acquire the experience of a lifetime of prejudice and disenfranchisement?
That's a very good question. I happen to have exquisite knowledge of Saskatoon. Though, myself, as a pale person fron S'toon, don't so disparately identify. The young male aboriginal population identifies with black urban images, culture and identity. So yes, they are doing it in Saskatoon. And Regina and Prince Albert and North Battleford and Moose Jaw...
[ 29. June 2015, 11:54: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Lots of stuff has happened since I last looked at this thread! I'm trying to work all of it into my brain but while that happens I'm going to mention a logical fallacy which I think has played a big part in the discussion here: the idea that if you can't immediately name the solution, it isn't a problem. Do I want to see people being forced to segregate music along the lines of skin colour? Of course not. I don't know what the solution is to this particular problem. Certainly I'm very glad that Dusty made the music that she did - as I said I'm a big fan. I'm also a big fan of many of the black artists who influenced her, and I discovered them through her. It's complicated.
To give another example of a problem which is complicated and without obvious solution, and which causes harm to black people in Africa: the sub-Saharan African brain drain. The richer countries of the world have picky immigration policies. They'll let in a qualified doctor or engineer from a poor country, but not other people. The end result is that poor countries in Africa lose their best and brightest young people overseas as quickly as they can train them to do things that would benefit their home country. Sure, they may send some money back, but that causes inflation.
So that's the problem. If I say that I don't think that locking down all the borders is an answer, that doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. It's a particularly complicated problem because the resources that are being transferred are people who have their own thoughts and lives. It's a problem that probably has a complicated answer that can be found in ten thousand little bits. It involves putting those countries back together, ending wars and building economies so that leaving isn't so attractive. It involves incentives. It probably involves foreign aid in some way. It may even be that by fixing other problems, we'll just get this one to fix itself.
To go all the way back to simple cultural appropriation - it is a problem. Dominant groups thinking they can walk in and take things from marginalised groups is a problem. The more marginalised a group is, the easier it is to take advantage of them and steal things from them. That's not to say that you can't share culture and ideas, but when you do so, are you doing so as equals? Or are you letting some element of the societal pecking order creep into interactions and screw someone over? That is the key question.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... All those things being equal then things like speech and personality start playing a big part at which point good looks probably play a much bigger part than race.
Race can be a huge factor in how we judge speech, personality and good looks, and lots of other things besides formal qualifications. In his eulogy for Clementa Pinckney, President Obama spoke of "the subtle impulse that leads us to call Johnny for an interview, but not Jamal."
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If anybody is interested in one way of looking at privilege that doesn't pretend that straight white males get all the breaks, and uses a metaphor familiar to many of us, here is an article that might help.
As much time as I have for Scalzi, I don't think he's right.
Certainly, if you're a rich white straight male, I'd agree. A poor white straight man has much more in common with a poor black straight man than he does a rich white straight man. Wealth makes everything easier: it doesn't care much about the colour of your skin, only the colour of your money.
Sorry Doc, you are wrong, at least in your apparent conclusion. Look at all the qualifiers in your sentence and we have the beginnings of Scalzi's argument.
Yes, wealth lowers barriers, but there are more barriers if your skin contains melanin.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibliophile:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
maybe I am being fanciful
Ya think! Seriously dude, this whole thread is an interesting topic but without wishing to be disrespectful I think if you are starting to attribute Kanye West's singing style to slavery then maybe you're getting a little carried away.
Actually, there's pretty good evidence that musical style is directly related to language: that the rhythms and cadences of the music of a culture are directly related to the rhythms and cadences of the spoken language of that culture.
Which isn't at all surprising given that one of the things that happens in music is the setting of words, but from what I've read it applies to instrumental music as well.
There are theories that hip-hop might be influenced by the West African griots, story tellers or troubadours, some of whom used rhyming lines, with a musical accompaniment.
But to really connect all that up would require a professional musicologist.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I'm going to mention a logical fallacy which I think has played a big part in the discussion here: the idea that if you can't immediately name the solution, it isn't a problem. Do I want to see people being forced to segregate music along the lines of skin colour? Of course not. I don't know what the solution is to this particular problem.
Well, Tamla Motown had a pretty clear equity aim, to prevent exploitation of black musicians by "the dominant culture", to use that term. And as the Wiki article puts it "Motown played an important role in the racial integration of popular music as an African American-owned record label which achieved significant crossover success."
And I think that cross-over has continued in the international music industry.
Did Motown achieve its aims perfectly - and was it free from exploitation? Well, no. But it changed the game permanently, IMO.
And I loved the stuff they produced in the first flowering of the label. They internationalised a sound. Was the "dominant culture" involved in that success? Well, I guess so, but mainly in the money we forked out extremely willingly to buy the records, attend the shows.
Sure, it's old history now, and maybe only a few old guys like me remember the Motown impact. And I'm not saying the battle to kill off dominant culture exploitation has been won either. But Motown was for me at any rate a big step in the right direction.
[ 29. June 2015, 19:17: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sorry Doc, you are wrong, at least in your apparent conclusion. Look at all the qualifiers in your sentence and we have the beginnings of Scalzi's argument.
Yes, wealth lowers barriers, but there are more barriers if your skin contains melanin.
But then you're comparing that low kerb over there with this high wall here. I'm not more privileged than someone with a brown skin or a black skin or a yellow skin who has more wealth than me.
And that's exactly the problem with Scalzi's argument. He's telling a bunch of poor white guys "you have it easy". The poor white guys look around them, at their parents, their friends (be they black or white), their neighbourhoods, and they know they have almost exactly zero privilege. Yes, they might have slightly more than the Puerto Rican family next door, but compared to the trustafarians they serve in the local mall where they work after school, they have zip.
They disbelieve his argument, and consequently (rightly or wrongly) all the following arguments regarding gender and race privilege, because they know being white and male is not the easiest setting, if you are also poor, and that wealth can and does trump skin colour, quite readily.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... All those things being equal then things like speech and personality start playing a big part at which point good looks probably play a much bigger part than race.
Race can be a huge factor in how we judge speech, personality and good looks, and lots of other things besides formal qualifications. In his eulogy for Clementa Pinckney, President Obama spoke of "the subtle impulse that leads us to call Johnny for an interview, but not Jamal."
I heard the president say that and I totally agree. I've just seen several studies where good looks factored in much higher than race and "attractive" black people were hired over white people who were considered unattractive. As far as speech and personality, I don't agree with your implication that those things are unavoidably different from one race to another.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Doc Tor,
Perception is indeed part of the problem, but perception is not reality.
Weath doesn't erase all colour issues, it merely means they move into a different arena.
Yes, I recognise it is difficult for a poor, white man to look at Jamelia and think he has any advantage.
And yeah, poor is a mighty barrier. Class is as well.
Don't think anyone is saying colour is the only barrier, just that it adds a few bricks to every wall one must surmount.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, Tamla Motown had a pretty clear equity aim, to prevent exploitation of black musicians by "the dominant culture", to use that term.
To the extent that they did this, the fact that they were owned by black people helped a lot in ensuring that they weren't seen as outsiders exploiting a culture.
That they were aware of the uphill struggle they were involved in is evident in various things including hiring Maxine Powell to run deportment lessons for their artists.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Don't think anyone is saying colour is the only barrier, just that it adds a few bricks to every wall one must surmount.
That I can agree with, but that's far more nuanced and moderate than the slap-the-male-whitey-down message coming from the (mainly white) tumblrati.
Wealth and class are the deciders. Not that race isn't, but that's how poor people squabble amongst themselves. I'll bet a pound to a penny that Carlos Slim, George Soros and Wang Jianlin aren't losing any sleep over their non-Anglo heritage.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Don't think anyone is saying colour is the only barrier, just that it adds a few bricks to every wall one must surmount.
That I can agree with, but that's far more nuanced and moderate than the slap-the-male-whitey-down message coming from the (mainly white) tumblrati.
Wealth and class are the deciders. Not that race isn't, but that's how poor people squabble amongst themselves. I'll bet a pound to a penny that Carlos Slim, George Soros and Wang Jianlin aren't losing any sleep over their non-Anglo heritage.
Carlos Slim is a pale person in Mexico. Look at the wealth gradient in Mexico and the higher you go the paler it is.
George Soros is whitey McWhite white. So race isn't quite as much a thing.
Wang Jianlin is Han Chinese. In China. His father fought with Mao. Han is the ethnic group of power in China, BTW. You cannot get more "in" than that. How is he even on your list?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The young male aboriginal population identifies with black urban images, culture and identity.
Identity? There is more than identity than music and clothes and speech.
Identify with? cool.
Identify as? Not so cool.
I said it poorly before, I think. Black is colour and culture and experience. Colour, not hue.
This man is darker than Obama. He is not black and Obama is.
Your Saskatoonians walk in to Croyden, Harlem or South Central and proclaim their blackness and how do you think they will be received?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Race can be a huge factor in how we judge speech, personality and good looks, and lots of other things besides formal qualifications. ...
... As far as speech and personality, I don't agree with your implication that those things are unavoidably different from one race to another.
Well, good, because I wasn't trying to imply that. What I actually wrote was race is a factor in how we judge those things. See the difference?
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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irish_lord99
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# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
For example: If I someday find myself in a position where I'm hiring people; and a black guy comes in to interview, what do I do?
A: Judge him by the same standards I use for all the white candidates (character, not color)?
B: Award him points above his competitors because he's had a tougher road getting there (character with a color modifier)?
C: Base my decision on how the current ethnic diversity of my company compares to that of the surrounding area? (color, not character)
This line of questioning generally assumes a few things.
One, that the person with the best CV/resume is the best person for the job. Having worked in several fields; technical, creative and trade, I can assure you this is not automatically true.
Two, that hiring a candidate who meets the criteria, but with a lower score than another candidate will have a poorer work product. Fact is, most jobs do not function this way.
If you truly want to level the playing field, it has to be a holistic approach. From education through employment.
I've heard many times "I do not hire by colour, I select the most qualified candidate". Well, the candidate with the best CV will most often be white. Why? Because they have had access to better schools, have more established connections, etc.
What you end up with is a society that doesn't "discriminate" but doesn't change stratification either.
White people can face the problems of poorer education and fewer connections, yes. But see mousethief's most excellent link for how that doesn't make things equal.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) Sounds like you're going with option B? I'm not really sure.
If I'm reading you right: if one wants to 'level the playing field' then we must start by awarding an artificial advantage to historically oppressed people in order to 'bring them up to speed' as it were.
That makes sense to me, but seems to run the danger of the 'white savior' pitfall.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If you truly want to level the playing field, it has to be a holistic approach. From education through employment.
Okay, as I mentioned before, we've got EEO laws, Affirmative Action laws, acedemic scholarships geared towards minorities, minority professional associations (i.e. Association of Hispanic Engineers) etc.
So what more needs to be done to actually 'level the playing field?' At what point is the problem solved? Is the problem ever solved, or is it made to last forever because of the political capital it creates for the champions of race equality?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Sounds like you're going with option B? I'm not really sure.
If I'm reading you right: if one wants to 'level the playing field' then we must start by awarding an artificial advantage to historically oppressed people in order to 'bring them up to speed' as it were.
Not truly "artificial advantage". As I said, most jobs see no advantage with the "best" candidate. Anyone who meets the criteria will serve.
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
That makes sense to me, but seems to run the danger of the 'white savior' pitfall.
Not really. Giving up monopoly is not being a saviour.
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Okay, as I mentioned before, we've got EEO laws, Affirmative Action laws, acedemic scholarships geared towards minorities, minority professional associations (i.e. Association of Hispanic Engineers) etc.
Those are awarded halfway up the hill. Education in poor areas is, quite frankly, itself poor.
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
So what more needs to be done to actually 'level the playing field?' At what point is the problem solved?
It is a long, slow process. It is solved when people actually have equal chance. It will never be perfect, but that does not mean it is not a practical goal.
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Is the problem ever solved, or is it made to last forever because of the political capital it creates for the champions of race equality?
Sorry, but I had a bit of a laugh at this. Ask again when we are closer to the goal.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But to really connect all that up would require a professional musicologist.
Amateur only, I'm afraid.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, Tamla Motown had a pretty clear equity aim, to prevent exploitation of black musicians by "the dominant culture", to use that term.
To the extent that they did this, the fact that they were owned by black people helped a lot in ensuring that they weren't seen as outsiders exploiting a culture.
That they were aware of the uphill struggle they were involved in is evident in various things including hiring Maxine Powell to run deportment lessons for their artists.
Motown was always pragmatic about stuff like that. It managed to foster the careers of such diverse characters as Smokey Robinson, Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross. It was a pretty big task, looking after equity, avoiding dominant exploitation, making profits and in some cases managing egos the size of Everest. Generally, I reckon they did well to harness all those horses, which weren't always comfortable about pulling in similar directions.
But I'm biased! "Calling all around the world, are you ready ...". At least to celebrate the real progress made, and which continues to be made, so far as contemporary popular music is concerned?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Lots of stuff has happened since I last looked at this thread! I'm trying to work all of it into my brain but while that happens I'm going to mention a logical fallacy which I think has played a big part in the discussion here: the idea that if you can't immediately name the solution, it isn't a problem.
I don't think that's quite it.
Seems to me that there is top-down thinking which sees "problems" at the level of races, or of more-developed and less-developed nations.
And there is bottom-up thinking which sees freedoms and duties, rights and responsibilities at the level of interactions between individual people.
The top-down thinkers tend to want to impose responsibilities on or take freedoms away from individual people in order to solve high-level problems, to make the high-level world the way they think it should be.
The bottom-up thinkers tend to want an individual's freedoms and responsibilities to reflect the way they think it should be, and accept whatever high-level consequences flow from that unless and until a solution with no low-level impact can be found.
If your sense of right and wrong operates at the level of how you interact with your neighbour, you don't want laws that go against that sense in order to satisfy some nice-to-have high-level state of the world. If your sense of right and wrong operates at the level of races, you want justice at that level regardless of what it does to nice-to-have individual freedoms.
Or so it seems to me,
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Seems to me that there is top-down thinking which sees "problems" at the level of races, or of more-developed and less-developed nations.
And there is bottom-up thinking which sees freedoms and duties, rights and responsibilities at the level of interactions between individual people.
No. I don't think this is correct either, which is indicative of the point later in your post where the former are described in terms of vices and the latter in terms of virtues only.
In general those arguing for 'bottom up thinking' have historically been those who are most comfortable with the status quo as is, and have had to be successively dragged into the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.
In reality, none of struggles for equality have been won by a sense of 'lets all be civil to each other and it'll all work out'.
[ 30. June 2015, 08:26: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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