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Source: (consider it) Thread: American Civl War is still being fought
lilBuddha
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And what is your point, BA?
The concept of equality is a slowly evolving one. A concept which has yet to mature fully.
The North were hardly paragons of equality, but still better than the South. In regards to black people. All y'all were fucked up to the natives.

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Leaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
It's interesting to note that abolitionis gained widespread support after Northerners and Europeans found other people to exploit without the unsavory institution of slavery. Immigrant children being mangled in Northern factories wasn't near as unsavory. After all, they didn't own those factory workers. Might have cared about them more if they did.

I have read versions of this thinly-veiled defense of slavery before, arguing that slaves in the South were treated better than factory workers in the North.

Genuine question: Is there any record of Northern factory workers moving to the South and becoming slaves in order to receive this better treatment?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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In parallel to Canada's failure to reconcile ourselves to the treatment of native people, about which we have had a Truth and Reconcilation Commission**, I'm seeing American problems as being part of a failure to reconcile itself to its horrible history. I may be channelling my growing understanding of Canada's racist past into your's, but I don't think unfairly.

The USA hasn't apologized to African-Americans for the institution of slavery, or the great harm it and racism created across generations. The ongoing violence between the races seems to me to be an outgrowth out of that unreconciled history.

Reconciliation is difficult because it involves not just listening to the painful history of the other group you mistreated, but also requires validating it and being willing to bend over backwards to change. It looks like it takes generations: it has to change hearts and minds and the careful and careless teaching by parental and community influence. Inclusiveness and empathy are imperative, not optional. So it's not okay to say this flag or monument means what I mean it to mean, in Alice Through the Looking Glass fashion. Rid public space of things that confirm the mistreatment - is this too much to ask?


**taking children forcibly from their parents, preventing them from speaking their languages and extinguishing their culture and family ties by placing them in residential school

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And what is your point, BA?
The concept of equality is a slowly evolving one. A concept which has yet to mature fully.
The North were hardly paragons of equality, but still better than the South. In regards to black people. All y'all were fucked up to the natives.

Yeah, the Northerners were nicer to the few black people who actually lived in the North. To the Irish who immigrated by the thousands, not so much. My in laws from the upper midwest harbor few prejudices against African-Americans. Hmongs on the other hand...

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lilBuddha
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BA,
I am the last person to say I think that racism is OK.
I think that it still exists in every country I've ever been to or heard of is not a good thing.

[ 07. July 2015, 18:28: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So it's not okay to say this flag or monument means what I mean it to mean...

Unless you mean that it's racist....then it is perfectly okay to say this flag or monument means what I mean it to mean...

Is that what you mean?

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
originally posted by no prophet:
The ongoing violence between the races seems to me to be an outgrowth out of that unreconciled history.

Of the thousands of African-Americans lost to homicide every year, do you realize how few of them are killed by white people? I believe it's around 7%. Keep in mind that statistic includes Latinos. Latino gangs often compete with African-American gangs. So, African-Americans killed by Anglos makes up probably less than one percent of the overall homicide rate. Of those, how many of them are actually about race? There is no ongoing race war in the United States.


quote:
originally posted by no prophet:
Rid public space of things that confirm the mistreatment - is this too much to ask?


I've never displayed the confederate flag on anything other than my Dukes of Hazard lunchbox back in the early 80's. Not sure I even knew what it was then. If the confederate flag ceased to fly over any government property anywhere, I wouldn't have noticed nor cared. Since the confederate flag has become an issue, I've been tempted to start displaying the flag and play Sweet Home Alabama on a loop. So, in my opinion, the answer is yes...at this moment in time...it most certainly is too much to ask.

Now, the South Carolina Senate voted overwhelmingly to remove the flag. Gov. Haley supports removing the flag. If the people of South Carolina reelect them, then they did the right thing. However, if any of the politicians voting to remove the confederate flag believe that will be enough, they are fools. They either have to fight the way the NRA fights or go about removing from the public space anything positive about any historical figure associated with the confederacy.

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saysay

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I've never displayed the confederate flag on anything other than my Dukes of Hazard lunchbox back in the early 80's. Not sure I even knew what it was then. If the confederate flag ceased to fly over any government property anywhere, I wouldn't have noticed nor cared. Since the confederate flag has become an issue, I've been tempted to start displaying the flag and play Sweet Home Alabama on a loop. So, in my opinion, the answer is yes...at this moment in time...it most certainly is too much to ask.

I keep thinking this thread must be a not-entirely-successful parody.

Personally I have the urge to break out that Betsy Ross flag I made in elementary school and start drafting articles of secession.

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I've never displayed the confederate flag on anything other than my Dukes of Hazard lunchbox back in the early 80's. Not sure I even knew what it was then. If the confederate flag ceased to fly over any government property anywhere, I wouldn't have noticed nor cared. Since the confederate flag has become an issue, I've been tempted to start displaying the flag and play Sweet Home Alabama on a loop.

Why? Not solidarity with Dylan Roof, presumably. You say you wouldn't have cared if it ceased to fly over government property, but now you care enough (almost) to fly it yourself. If you're so indifferent to the flag itself, why exactly are you so exercised about people trying to have it removed?
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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by no prophet:
The ongoing violence between the races seems to me to be an outgrowth out of that unreconciled history.

Of the thousands of African-Americans lost to homicide every year, do you realize how few of them are killed by white people? I believe it's around 7%. Keep in mind that statistic includes Latinos. Latino gangs often compete with African-American gangs. So, African-Americans killed by Anglos makes up probably less than one percent of the overall homicide rate. Of those, how many of them are actually about race? There is no ongoing race war in the United States.


quote:
originally posted by no prophet:
Rid public space of things that confirm the mistreatment - is this too much to ask?


I've never displayed the confederate flag on anything other than my Dukes of Hazard lunchbox back in the early 80's. Not sure I even knew what it was then. If the confederate flag ceased to fly over any government property anywhere, I wouldn't have noticed nor cared. Since the confederate flag has become an issue, I've been tempted to start displaying the flag and play Sweet Home Alabama on a loop. So, in my opinion, the answer is yes...at this moment in time...it most certainly is too much to ask.

Now, the South Carolina Senate voted overwhelmingly to remove the flag. Gov. Haley supports removing the flag. If the people of South Carolina reelect them, then they did the right thing. However, if any of the politicians voting to remove the confederate flag believe that will be enough, they are fools. They either have to fight the way the NRA fights or go about removing from the public space anything positive about any historical figure associated with the confederacy.

This response makes my point very clearly, though I don't think you get it. If you don't understand the perspective of the 'other' you have taken no steps toward reconciliation.

The proportion of who kills or otherwise does violence today has nothing to do with reconciling history of mistreatment. In fact, the mistreatment from the past - the sins of the father are unto how many generations? - has been implicated in causing today's social problems, with considerable merit, in the parallel I'm drawing with Canada's aboriginal peoples.

My understanding of the flag issue is that the slave-descended population takes great offence to it. Offence alone is insufficient to warrant taken the flags down. That is mere political correctness. But because it has come to symbolize that whites dominated blacks and is taken as representative of the history of slavery and current approval of non-acceptance of black people, then it is more than a simple free speech or historical icon. It represents approval of the history including enslavement of black people. I think it will come to symbolize, if it hasn't already, that a person displaying it is racist against black people.

It is not just about removing the physical object is it? It's the meaning of the removal in the context of reconciliation of your racial issues and very difficult history. Or maybe reconciliation isn't understood or wanted?

The talk in Canada is of 'cultural genocide', when the children were taken from parents. Should the talk in your America be of another form of genocide towards black people?

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Augustine the Aleut
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Beeswax Altar might find playing Lotte Lenya's Alabama Song to be more interesting than Sweet Home Alabama.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Of the thousands of African-Americans lost to homicide every year, do you realize how few of them are killed by white people?

Yeah...

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ExclamationMark
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Perhaps when the racism towards the native inhabitants is sorted out and reparation made, then racism might - possibly - begin to end.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I've never displayed the confederate flag on anything other than my Dukes of Hazard lunchbox back in the early 80's. Not sure I even knew what it was then. If the confederate flag ceased to fly over any government property anywhere, I wouldn't have noticed nor cared. Since the confederate flag has become an issue, I've been tempted to start displaying the flag and play Sweet Home Alabama on a loop.

Why? Not solidarity with Dylan Roof, presumably. You say you wouldn't have cared if it ceased to fly over government property, but now you care enough (almost) to fly it yourself. If you're so indifferent to the flag itself, why exactly are you so exercised about people trying to have it removed?
Makes sense to me, though I've no idea who or what Dylan Roof is.

I may be completely misunderstanding Beeswax Altar, but it strikes me as an entirely understandable (to excuse my language) 'S*d the lot of them. I'm not having those b*****rs telling me what to do', reaction.

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Gamaliel
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Enoch - Dylann Roof, with two 'nn's for some reason - was the lad who shot those people in the church in Charleston.

I can understand Beeswax Altar's reaction and viewpoint - 'Those buggers aren't going to tell me what flag I should or shouldn't fly ...'

It's an understandable reaction and, dare I say it, very 'American' ...

What worries me about the current heat and steam about the Confederate flag and statues/monuments of Southern Generals and so on ... is that by clamping down on these things - removing them from the public sphere - the 'liberals' or the 'North' or whoever it is - the Feds ? - who want to clamp down on these things - run the risk of drawing more attention to them and legitimising them.

Heck, I don't have any problem at all with there being statues of Robert E Lee and so on - why shouldn't there be?

And the Confederate dead should be commemorated as much as the Union dead or the dead from any conflict.

There's an old church in York (there are many old churches in York ...) which was damaged in a German air raid in WW2 has been turned into some kind of 'peace centre' type of thing and which has links to Coventry Cathedral's peace initiatives. I'm told that among other memorials - such as to the 100 or so citizens of York who died in the bombing, there's a memorial to the 5 Luftwaffe pilots who died when their aircraft was shot down during the raid.

My gut feeling is that any reaction against Confederate insignia, memorials and whatever else will only provoke an equal and opposite reaction.

I think we can accept that the South was treated pretty shittily both during and after the Civil War - General Grant laid waste to wide swathes of land during his advance into Southern territory.

To acknowledge that isn't to justify slavery nor exonerate the South for its endemic racist at that time.

Tit for tat 'Damn Yankee' bollocks doesn't redress the balance either. 'We treated our slaves better than you treated your Irish migrants ...' and all that malarkey.

It worries me the way these debates seem to become so easily polarised - one side demonising the other and all balance and nuance being lost in the shrillness.

Sadly, that seems to be the way political and social debate seems to be going in the US. It might be the same elsewhere but I dunno - it seems a lot more strident over there at the moment and has been for some time ...
[Ultra confused]

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Tortuf
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It is my belief that things: words, symbols, history, all have the meaning we bring to them. It is the meaning we bring to things that gives those things power. The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (the one everyone calls the confederate flag) has a lot of meaning for a lot of people.

For many people I know the flag evokes the bravery and the chivalry of the Old South. The South that in their hearts fought bravely and whose generals regularly outsmarted Yankee generals.

For many others the flag evokes slavery, oppression, Jim Crow and deliberate and continuous resistance to civil rights. It is an ongoing threat and reminder that racism is alive and well in the United States.

The truth is that flag carries both meanings writ large.

I have read a lot about the causes of the Civil War. A number of historians attribute the war to states unhappiness with federal power. A number of historians attribute the war to a desire to continue slavery. The exact cause seems to be elusive. First, war is wrong. Second, war to keep slavery is wrong. Third, if you do not know exactly why a war is being fought - why is the war being fought?

Whatever the cause 620,000 soldiers died in the Civil War. Let that number soak in. That is 504 soldiers per day of the war. 2.5% of the US population lost their lives to that war. If 2.5% of our population were to die in a war today, it would be roughly 7,000,000 soldiers. Newer research suggests that the number of soldiers who died in the war was upwards of 850,000.

I am more than willing to bet for every soldier who died nobly, there were lots of others who would rather have lived out their lives with their families and friends. And yet we continue to think of this war as noble.

Why is the battle flag flying over Charleston South Carolina today? The official reason is to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the start of the Civil War. There is a lot of reason to tie the flag flying again to the emergence of the Civil Rights movement and Strom Thurmond who openly campaigned on keeping segregation.

So, should the flag be banned? No. We have freedom of expression and I for one am awfully glad we do. This is an entirely different question than that of a government flying the flag.

Should the flag fly as an official government statement? That is what the government of South Carolina is doing; making an official government statement by flying the flag. The centennial of starting the war was over 54 years ago. It is still a little early to fly it for the bicentennial. Flying it now is a bit like not taking down Christmas lights until August.

Even if the original purpose was to honor the start of the Civil War, that meaning seems to have gone by the way. It seems hard to miss that the continued flying of the flag symbolizes in part a dedication to resistance to civil rights. This is an - interesting - message for a state with an African American population of 28%.

Even without the racist undercurrents of the flag. We ought to ask ourselves why we as a people in the South continue to glamorize a war that killed between 620,000 and 850,000 people.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Of the thousands of African-Americans lost to homicide every year, do you realize how few of them are killed by white people?

Yeah...
#whitelivesmatter

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Enoch
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Thanks for that Gamaliel. Although I've heard all about the dreadful shootings in Charleston, I don't think I've heard the gunman named.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Thanks for that Gamaliel. Although I've heard all about the dreadful shootings in Charleston, I don't think I've heard the gunman named.

You've heard "all about" the shootings, but you haven't heard the name of the gunman or anything about his celebration of the Confederate battle flag? (He was mentioned in the OP, in fact - just before your first post on this thread, as it happens.)
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IconiumBound
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Regarding the meaning of the confederate battle flag: Originally posted by Tartof
quote:
For many people I know the flag evokes the bravery and the chivalry of the Old South. The South that in their hearts fought bravely and whose generals regularly outsmarted Yankee generals.

For many others the flag evokes slavery, oppression, Jim Crow and deliberate and continuous resistance to civil rights. It is an ongoing threat and reminder that racism is alive and well in the United States.

The truth is that flag carries both meanings writ large.

The other meaning is about where the flag is posted. On ground level it makes the statements quoted above but when posted atop a government building it is a declaration that "we are in charge here". Consider what would be the effect should ISIL manage to post their black flag atop a government building. So it is not just what it is but where it is.
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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
... There is no ongoing race war in the United States. ...

Please. The war on drugs is a race war. Check out the DoJ report on policing in Ferguson for more race war. And let's not forget the racial disparity in death sentences in the USA.


eek! code!

[ 08. July 2015, 13:11: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Whatever your star-bars flag's significance in recalling a positive heritage and history for some people, it also historically represents an era of slavery and oppression, and it has been appropriated as a symbol of hate by other groups. Not true? Find me a significant proportion of black people who agree with you.

As for the Irish, they had to have a bloody war to get rid of the British. Nothing helpful there if we want a model for reconciliation.

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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:

I have read a lot about the causes of the Civil War. A number of historians attribute the war to states unhappiness with federal power. A number of historians attribute the war to a desire to continue slavery. The exact cause seems to be elusive. First, war is wrong. Second, war to keep slavery is wrong. Third, if you do not know exactly why a war is being fought - why is the war being fought?


I'm not sure there are any serious historians nowadays who considered the secession and resulting war was not directly involved with the desire to keep and expand slavery. The seceding states were quite explicit about it being slavery and their unhappiness with federal power was that it wasn't being used sufficiently to return runaway slaves from the free states despite the Fugitive Slave Act though they also feared in the long run that slavery would be abolished as it had already been done in many countries and in the short run that it would not be allowed in new territories and new states. The Confederate constitution is very similar to the US Constitution except with more recognition of individual state freedom except on one point, slavery; no confederate state could ban slavery completely.

Browse through the documents if you wish

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
... There is no ongoing race war in the United States. ...

Please. The war on drugs is a race war. Check out the DoJ report on policing in Ferguson for more race war. And let's not forget the racial disparity in death sentences in the USA.


eek! code!

I'll tell that to the dozen white people in my small town I personally know who have been to prison and are on felony probation for nonviolent drug crimes.
[Roll Eyes]

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
... There is no ongoing race war in the United States. ...

Please. The war on drugs is a race war. Check out the DoJ report on policing in Ferguson for more race war. And let's not forget the racial disparity in death sentences in the USA.


eek! code!

Also the War on Poverty. Now I think on it, most of the Major US Gov Initiatives, largely underfunded and incompletely implemented and hence dismal failures, could really have been labeled "white efforts to solve the African-American Problem." We stopped short of gas showers, though.

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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
We stopped short of gas showers, though.

Well, at least Planned Parenthood is alive and kickin'!

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
... There is no ongoing race war in the United States. ...

Please. The war on drugs is a race war. Check out the DoJ report on policing in Ferguson for more race war. And let's not forget the racial disparity in death sentences in the USA.


eek! code!

I'll tell that to the dozen white people in my small town I personally know who have been to prison and are on felony probation for nonviolent drug crimes.
[Roll Eyes]

Ah, the old "one example disproves a trend" fallacy. I forget the Latin for that.

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Beeswax Altar
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Oh...I bet I could go to the next small town over and find a dozen or so white people on probation or who have done time for nonviolent drug crimes too. Matter of fact, I bet that would be true for most towns such as mine. Besides, I missed where actual evidence of a race war was presented. Probably because there isn't any.

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lilBuddha
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Race war is a bit hyperbolic IMO. However, black people are more targeted by the police, treated worse and receive harsher sentences than white people.
Call it a war call it harassment, call it prejudice. But calling to non-existent is to be be willfully blind.

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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Point of information, Dave W, I never mentioned Dylann Roof in the Original Post. I did not mention him because there was a thread already dealing with him.

I am lamenting that the civil war still continues in different guises. The flag issue is a small part of it; but other issues also remain. I am reading a book by Bryan Stephenson called Just Mercy: A Story of Justice and Redemption It depicts how the American Justice System is waited against the poor and minorities (Example: If you are arrested for a capital punishment offence and you do not have the capital, you will get the punishment.)

The recent spate of police shooting black youth also suggest how the war continues.

Sometimes you can hear the conservatives complain liberals are in a culture war. If you listen to the complaint, you can still hear echos of the civil war.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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It occurs to me that basically, people are insisting on flying the flag of a separatist movement.

That in itself is good evidence the Civil War is still being fought.

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Point of information, Dave W, I never mentioned Dylann Roof in the Original Post. I did not mention him because there was a thread already dealing with him.

You most certainly did mention him - you realize we can still see the original post, right?

The last line is:
quote:
If there is one thing the Dylan Roof shooting has begun is a discourse on the state of the American civil war.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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I can't find the original article, but it has been argued that the South never clearly accepted that it had lost the war because Lincoln died. His successor Jackson was a southerner and went easy on the defeated South. If Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis had gone to prison camp to break rock for ten years or so (instead of retiring in honor to sip mint juleps on porches) it might've sunk in better. They were never prosecuted and labeled as the traitors they were, and this was a fatal error.

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Og, King of Bashan

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# 9562

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I'm not going to argue that reconstruction worked, but the idea that we should have sent more people to prison camps goes against everything I have ever learned about effective reconciliation.

When Union troops were standing at the outskirts of Atlanta, the mayor sent a letter to General Sherman, begging him to spare the city. Sherman sent a letter in response, in which he stated that war is a horrible thing, and that pulling your punches will only prolong the suffering. But he also said something that might seem a little surprising in the context. Sherman wrote,

quote:
But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.
These guys appreciated that the folks on the other side were their countrymen, and wanted them to be their countrymen again.

I think that the work of reconciliation over the Civil War and the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow has a long way to go. I also suspect we would have a lot further to go had we conducted more hangings at the end of the war.

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can't find the original article, but it has been argued that the South never clearly accepted that it had lost the war because Lincoln died. His successor Jackson was a southerner and went easy on the defeated South.

<pedant>Lincoln was succeeded by Andrew Johnson, of Tennessee. Andrew Jackson was someone else entirely (also from Tennessee), and was President from 1829 -1837.</pedant>

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can't find the original article, but it has been argued that the South never clearly accepted that it had lost the war because Lincoln died. His successor Jackson was a southerner

It wasn't Jackson but Andrew Johnson.

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[ 09. July 2015, 19:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can't find the original article, but it has been argued that the South never clearly accepted that it had lost the war because Lincoln died. His successor Jackson was a southerner and went easy on the defeated South. If Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis had gone to prison camp to break rock for ten years or so (instead of retiring in honor to sip mint juleps on porches) it might've sunk in better. They were never prosecuted and labeled as the traitors they were, and this was a fatal error.

I think you mean Andrew Johnson. He tends to end up near the bottom of those "best presidents" lists with Warren Harding, James Buchanan, and (recently) George W. Bush.

The question of which Confederate officers and/or officials to punish was taken up by Gary Brecher. He eschews going after the top men, which is likely to create martyrs of men mostly past their "sell by" dates in terms of effectiveness.

quote:
None of these men, or even more effective postwar irregulars/bandits like the James Brothers, ever represented a real threat to the Union victory. That threat came from ex-Confederate officers who were cold-blooded and intelligent enough to bide their time, take advantage of the North’s ridiculous leniency, and form quasi-legal organizations to negate every gain for which those 300,000 soldiers died. These were the men who needed to hang in April 1865.
The men he picks out as most worthy of the noose were Nathan Bedford Forrest (founder of the Ku Klux Klan) and Wade Hampton III (founder of the very similar by less well-known Red Shirts). Both men were fairly vicious during the war, even by the standards of nineteenth century warfare, so their execution would have been well justified based on their Civil War activities, not just what we know they later went on to do, though anyone paying attention might have figured out their likely trajectory.

quote:
And it would not have been difficult to identify the Confederate leaders most likely to organize treasonous groups like the Red Shirts and KKK. Both were led by civilians who rose quickly through the ranks, ending up as Lt. Generals — the only two men to follow that trajectory in the whole huge Confederate army. Both these leaders, Forrest and Hampton, were notable for their efficiency and extreme brutality throughout the war. Both were relatively young. Both were unrepentant racists and secessionists. For all these reasons, they were all obvious candidates for the top spots on a gallows list.


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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Sorry, typo.

I don't necessarily advocate hanging, which then leads to martyrdom. (The federal authorities were careful to keep the bodies of Lincoln's murderers under wraps for some years; John Wilkes Booth's sister eventually got his corpse back to put into the family tomb.)
But some good hard time in jail would keep them from being reverenced like saints.

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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It is my understanding that Johnson was basically following the Reconstruction Plan that Lincoln had promoted before his death. Which would have granted complete amnesty to all Southerners except to certain political leaders.

As it turned out, Lee was granted amnesty after applying for it. Davis was imprisoned for two years. People wanted to charge him with treason, but it was felt that the charges could not be prosecuted. He was released on a $100,000 bond and fled to Canada

Later in life he returned to the United States. He was actually re-elected to the US Senate, but that body refused to seat him. I believe he ended up becoming the president of an insurance company.

Robert E Lee became the president of Washington University. It is now known as Washington and Lee University.

Most Americans learned that the Civil War ended with the surrender of Lee and the capture of Davis. I admit I always thought of it this way, but further research shows that it was more drawn out. Here is the timeline:

Contents [hide]
1 Surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia (April 9)
2 Surrender of General St. John Richardson Liddell's troops (April 9)
3 Union Capture of Columbus, Georgia (Easter Sunday, April 16)
4 Disbanding of Mosby's Raiders (April 21)
5 Surrender of General Joseph E. Johnston and his various armies (April 26)
6 Surrender of the Confederate departments of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana regiments (May 4)
7 Surrender of the Confederate District of the Gulf (May 5)
8 Andrew Johnson's May 9 declaration (May 9)
9 Capture of President Davis (May 10)
10 Surrender of the Confederate Department of Florida and South Georgia (May 10)
11 Surrender of the Northern Sub-District of Arkansas (May 11)
12 Surrender of Confederate forces of North Georgia (May 12)
13 Disbandment after the Battle at Palmito Ranch (May 13)
14 Surrender of Kirby Smith (May 26)
15 Surrender of Cherokee chief Stand Watie (June 23)
16 Surrender of CSS Shenandoah (November 6)

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betjemaniac
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# 17618

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

But some good hard time in jail would keep them from being reverenced like saints.

Hmmm, didn't appear to have that effect on some people's views of the occupants of Her Majesty's Prison Maze....

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
It is my understanding that Johnson was basically following the Reconstruction Plan that Lincoln had promoted before his death. Which would have granted complete amnesty to all Southerners except to certain political leaders.

Not really. Johnson's Reconstruction differed from Lincoln's (which was still being formed when he was assassinated) in a number of areas, most significantly on the question of (male) black suffrage.

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Race war is a bit hyperbolic IMO. However, black people are more targeted by the police, treated worse and receive harsher sentences than white people.
Call it a war call it harassment, call it prejudice. But calling to non-existent is to be be willfully blind.

All of which can be explained by the fact that black people commit crimes at a far higher rate than their percentage of the population. Areas with higher crime have a higher police presence. A higher police presence means or run ins with the police. As encounters with the police increase, the chance of encountering a cop (of any race) willing to use excessive force. You can claim that police should police high crime areas less but then that would just lead to the claim that police aren't doing their job. We are seeing that play out in Baltimore now.

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
All of which can be explained by the fact that black people commit crimes at a far higher rate than their percentage of the population.

This is a popular idea, but doesn't seem to be true. To take an example most recently in the media, the town of Ferguson, MO has a fairly typical crime rate for a U.S. city and yet ended up with an average of $321 in fines and 3 warrants per household. This is not something you get from ordinary policing. This is predatory enforcement.

You get a similar trend when it comes to drug crime. Virtually every study of drug use by Americans shows that black and white Americans use drugs at virtually the same rate, yet those serving drug convictions (particularly non-violent drug convictions, which allow greater discretionary latitude to police and prosecutors) are disproportionately African American.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This is a popular idea, but doesn't seem to be true.

Truth? What matter cold, stark truth? Much better to lie under the warmth of a blanket rhetoric, curled next to the fire of ignorance.

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georgiaboy
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# 11294

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Was it? I don't think it was just about slaves, honestly, particularly for the south. There were union states that did have slaves (Kentucky for instance.)

Also New York and Massachusetts

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Tangent Alert
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
This is a popular idea, but doesn't seem to be true. To take an example most recently in the media, the town of Ferguson, MO has a fairly typical crime rate for a U.S. city and yet ended up with an average of $321 in fines and 3 warrants per household. This is not something you get from ordinary policing. This is predatory enforcement. ...

I accept that this has nothing to do with the Civil War, but there was a programme on R4 (a BBC wireless channel) recently about Ferguson. The person making had visited it. He alleged, with fairly persuasive evidence, that Ferguson and some neighbouring local authorities had no proper tax base. So they were relying on predatory fining as their main source of income.

If that's true, it's very bad. It's a serious and inexcusable breach of trust on the public. But as I said, I accept it has little bearing on the subject of this thread.

End of Tangent

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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There is really very little difference between Lincoln's plan and Johnson's plan. Lincoln's plan was called the Lincoln Louisiana Plan which would have quietly allowed readmission into the Union. It was called the Louisiana Plan primarily because when Lincoln first suggested it, Louisiana took him at his word and elected representatives and senators for the US Congress. Congress, though, refused to allow them because hostilities were still taking place.
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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Was it? I don't think it was just about slaves, honestly, particularly for the south. There were union states that did have slaves (Kentucky for instance.)

Also New York and Massachusetts
Not at the time of the Civil War. New York abolished the practice in 1827, though a small number of slaves show up in the 1830 and 1840 censuses. Massachusetts has the interesting distinction of being the only one of the 13 original states that had effectively banned slavery by the time the Constitution was adopted. This came about as the result of a series of court cases during the Revolutionary War that held that perpetual servitude was not compatible with the (then newly adopted) Massachusetts state constitution.

Interestingly one slave shows up in Massachusetts during the census of 1830 (the only time an enslaved person is listed in Massachusetts during a U.S. Census). This may be due to a visitor from another state where slavery was still legal at the time. "Right of transit with property" was one of the grievances set out in one of the various Declarations of the Causes of Secession.

At any rate, the break point for secession seems to be an enslavement rate of somewhere between 20% and 25%. The four border states (Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware) were the states where slavery was still legal in 1860 that did not join the Confederate rebellion. All of them had enslavement rates of less than 20% of their overall population. Arkansas and Tennessee had the lowest enslavement rates of the secessionist states, both at about 25% of total population. So somewhere between a 20% and 25% enslavement rate is where the Slave Power gained enough influence to be the determining factor in a state's political calculus.

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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I see that someone already beat me to the punch about New York and Massachusetts.

Turns out that when the movie 12 Years a Slave came out, I found out through a family source that my family had owned slaves in Connecticut at one time. Not sure when that ended. These were actually indentured servants. Connecticut officially emancipated slaves in 1848.

My mother's grandmother's side of the family, the Bradshaws, were in Georgia during the Civil War. I am betting they also owned slaves and even fought on the confederate side.

Thing of it is, the term "States Rights" was synonymous with owning slaves when the states started to withdraw from the Union. It still is a code word for the subjugation of minorities in the United States. You saw that in the 1960's during the civil rights movement. You see it dealing with illegal immigration and path to citizenship of South Americans (I somewhat understand how illegal immigration from the Middle EASt and Africa are impacting European countries as well). And you see it in the reaction of several conservative states to the latest Supreme Court ruling concerning equal marriage (Not wanting to make this a dead horse issue).

Many people resist change, but 150 years later, you would think some issues would be settled by now.

Question: what is the role of the church, as a change agent, in regard to this continuing civil/culture war?

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Brenda Clough
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The American church, alas! has an ugly history here. You can easily find reams of sermons, preached from pulpits across the South, assuring congregations that black people were made by God to be slaves. Entire denominations (that's why they're the -Southern- Baptists) split off, and after the war became bastions for white people. The black people had to go and start their own African Methodist or African Episcopal churches. We were definitely not followers of Christ.
That the church has been to some extent at the front of the Civil Rights movement is hopeful. (IMO the conservative Christianity's opposition to gay marriage shows that the church hasn't learned much in the past two centuries; they've found yet another hill to die on that will totally be left behind by history.)

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