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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: American Civl War is still being fought
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The American church, alas! has an ugly history here. You can easily find reams of sermons, preached from pulpits across the South, assuring congregations that black people were made by God to be slaves. Entire denominations (that's why they're the -Southern- Baptists) split off, and after the war became bastions for white people. The black people had to go and start their own African Methodist or African Episcopal churches. We were definitely not followers of Christ.
Debatable. The actions of southern slaveholders seem pretty much in line with the historical mainstream of other "followers of Christ".
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
That the church has been to some extent at the front of the Civil Rights movement is hopeful. (IMO the conservative Christianity's opposition to gay marriage shows that the church hasn't learned much in the past two centuries; they've found yet another hill to die on that will totally be left behind by history.)
This seems more like public relations than anything else. "The Church" (which is a nice generic term) likes to selectively remember the parts of it that supported the Civil Rights Movement and forget about the parts that opposed it or were indifferent. In other words, it likes to believe that "the Church" was represented by Martin Luther King, Jr. when he wrote his Letter From Birmingham Jail, but not by the much more widely respected (at the time) clergymen who wrote the Call for Unity to which he was responding.
If history follows its usual arc, I'm sure that in thirty or so years we'll be hearing about how a carefully handpicked set of examples show how "the Church" led the way on gay rights.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
no prophet's flag is set so..., comments that can be read as attempts to start 45th parallel wars are not welcome here.
Everyone else, neither will any comments responding in kind. You have been warned.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Oh, I agree, Croesus. In a generation the gay-rights movement will be one of the ornaments of Christian social development, no question.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
The flag is not going to be flying on the South Carolina capitol grounds after today.
If I take anything away from Representative Horne's speech, it is that reconciliation is going to come from talking about today. It's fun to play armchair historian and wonder how it might have been different if we did x, y, or z. But it is probably more important to listen to the people around us. Does it matter why the war happened, or if the Confederates were traitors or merely rebels? It's a fun debate, but it matters far less than the fact that having the flag fly over state grounds makes good people feel like lesser citizens.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
South Carolina has just proved it is easier to take down a piece of cloth which in and of itself is harmless than it is for the United States to limit access to a 9mm Glock which has the purpose is to kill or maim.
I am a gun owner who believes that the United States can do better to limit access to such a weapon. I do not want to ban firearms, just to control access to them by unbalanced people.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
One week ago:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Even though Robert E Lee surrendered the Army of Virgina, and Jefferson Davis was captured shortly thereafter, the issue of the Confederate Battle Flag shows the war is still being fought.
Yesterday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
South Carolina has just proved it is easier to take down a piece of cloth which in and of itself is harmless than it is for the United States to limit access to a 9mm Glock which has the purpose is to kill or maim.
Wait, what did we just spend the last week and 156 posts (plus a spin-off Styx thread) discussing?
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The issue of the Original Post was not about the Confederate Flag. It is about the continuing divide Americans are experiencing when it comes to respecting the rights of all people. I have said throughout this thread that the war is continuing whenever the majority wants to subjugate the minority. I gave a number of examples of how this happens.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
It just seems to me that when you look at South Carolina taking the flag down and say "well it's not really such a big deal to take down a harmless piece of cloth" you are disrespecting the people who have been working for years against serious opposition to get that thing down. Especially since the major hurdle was getting people to see that, for many people in the state, it wasn't just a piece of cloth or a historical relic, but a constant and continuous slap in the face. If it was easy, it would have happened a long time ago. So let's take a breath, give them a "way to go, folks," and then press on.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
South Carolina has just proved it is easier to take down a piece of cloth which in and of itself is harmless than it is for the United States to limit access to a 9mm Glock which has the purpose is to kill or maim.
I am a gun owner who believes that the United States can do better to limit access to such a weapon. I do not want to ban firearms, just to control access to them by unbalanced people.
That's really not a good comparison. What we see in South Carolina is the managers of state owned property deciding to take down a flag. If you want to fly a particular flag on your property and walk around with a gun, go for it.
Last summer whilst in NYC for the primary purpose of seeing some baseball games, I walked out of the SE corner of Central Park and saw a Saudi flag in front of a particular hotel. Even though I was deeply offended to see such a vile flag, I remembered it was not my property. I showed them! Within just a few minutes I was in a pub drinking a beer in protest.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
When a crowd of people waiving Saudi flags get in your face and tell you that you had better not try to enroll in a public school or you might not survive the night, you can talk about being offended by flags.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
When a crowd of people waiving Saudi flags get in your face and tell you that you had better not try to enroll in a public school or you might not survive the night, you can talk about being offended by flags.
Democrats haven't used the confederate flag in that manner for at least two generations.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Oh sure, they wanted to hurt you grandpa for being black, but that was a long time ago. Now get over it, so I can go back to being pissed off about my great great great great grandpa fighting on the losing side of a war.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
When a crowd of people waiving Saudi flags get in your face and tell you that you had better not try to enroll in a public school or you might not survive the night, you can talk about being offended by flags.
Only the actual ones who have had flags waved in their face and being told crap have any business having a problem with a flag? If that's the way you see things, fine, but it sounds like a load of crap to me.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
There is a war going on in America, but it isn't being waged by southern redneck confederate sympathizers. It is being waged in Amari Brown's neighborhood, by his own neighbors.
If his murder fit a little different narrative maybe people would give a shit.
Sadly for him it sounds like his own father doesn't even give a shit.
I'm sure his mother is comforted knowing that the flag has been taken down in South Carolina.
Now if we could just toughen up those weak Chicago gun laws, the ones Amari's father was just arrested on in April, then we would really be on our way...
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I'm sure his mother is comforted knowing that the flag has been taken down in South Carolina.
I bet she's not mad about it...
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
When a crowd of people waiving Saudi flags get in your face and tell you that you had better not try to enroll in a public school or you might not survive the night, you can talk about being offended by flags.
Only the actual ones who have had flags waved in their face and being told crap have any business having a problem with a flag? If that's the way you see things, fine, but it sounds like a load of crap to me.
At least there are more than 0 people alive who have ever had that experience with the confederate flag.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
When a crowd of people waiving Saudi flags get in your face and tell you that you had better not try to enroll in a public school or you might not survive the night, you can talk about being offended by flags.
Only the actual ones who have had flags waved in their face and being told crap have any business having a problem with a flag? If that's the way you see things, fine, but it sounds like a load of crap to me.
At least there are more than 0 people alive who have ever had that experience with the confederate flag.
My wife and daughters can all drive a car to a pub and be honest about their beliefs with others while having a cold brew and a BLT before going to vote and I don't even have to go with them.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I'm sure his mother is comforted knowing that the flag has been taken down in South Carolina.
I bet she's not mad about it...
Which is, of course, the only measure of her credibility on the issue.
I'm sure she is mad, furious even, that far away and long dead white politicians ratified the second amendment and outlawed certain drugs leading directly to her son's tragic death.
It's a race war, don't you know...
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Like I said I think War is OTT.
But how would you describe the systematic oppression of a group of people based on their perceived race?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But how would you describe the systematic oppression of a group of people based on their perceived race?
As a ubiquitous stain on the human condition present in all places and at all times, to which the United States has not been immune, but against which it has certainly been a miraculous exception in the long span of human history. Especially considering the blink of time represented by 239 years.
Not to say that America is exceptional though!
That would be racist.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But how would you describe the systematic oppression of a group of people based on their perceived race?
As a ubiquitous stain on the human condition present in all places and at all times, to which the United States has not been immune, but against which it has certainly been a miraculous exception in the long span of human history.
Could you re-phrase, please?
I think I get the part where "The US has not been immune to the stain of systematic oppression..."; you can be "immune to" something (though usually not to a stain, but that's not the worst of mixed metaphors.)
But the next part sounds like you're saying "The US has been a miraculous exception against the stain of systematic oppression..." What does it mean to be an "exception against" something?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
My wife and daughters can all drive a car to a pub and be honest about their beliefs with others while having a cold brew and a BLT before going to vote and I don't even have to go with them.
Show me one anti 20th amendment or title IX rally where someone is flying a Saudi flag. Just one.
You can't. Because it has never happened.
Show me one state where a governor or legislature erected the Saudi flag over the state capitol before refusing to allow women to register for classes or register to vote. Just one.
You can't. Because it has never happened.
Ask me if I can show you one anti civil rights act rally where people are waving the confederate flag.
I can show you many of them.
Ask me if I can show you one state where a governor or legislature erected a confederate flag over the state capitol before refusing to allow blacks to register for classes or register to vote.
I can show you many of them.
The comparison is laughable.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
19th amendment rather. I don't suppose anyone has ever protested moving inauguration day to January.
(Got my mnemonic screwed up- 19th amendment passed in 1920.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But how would you describe the systematic oppression of a group of people based on their perceived race?
As a ubiquitous stain on the human condition present in all places and at all times, to which the United States has not been immune, but against which it has certainly been a miraculous exception in the long span of human history. Especially considering the blink of time represented by 239 years.
Not to say that America is exceptional though!
That would be racist.
Not really sure what you are saying. It appears you might be trying to reference slavery in North America. But that number is 242 years. (1619 to 1865) And if you want to talk about Jim Crow, redlining, segregation, you have to go at least until 1968. That is if you just want to deal with laws. So we are up to 349 years. And really, you have to go to 2015 and counting. Not only are black people still not treated equally, the effect of all those years of institutionalised racism and then more covert racism, needs to be addressed.
Oh, blink of an eye? Why limit yourself to human history? Even better. Hey slaves, you should not have had no complaints. Compared to the age of the universe, your being torn from your family, locked in chains, beaten and enslaved didn't even happen.
How about we flip that perspective? 88% of the history of Europeans in North America involves the subjugation of other peoples. Damn. Slow. Blink.
And that weird comment at the end. American isn't a race. And I do not let Anyone else off the hook when it comes to the poor treatment of others. But this thread is about America.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The comparison is laughable.
MN was describing a situation that is, that exists now. All of your examples are what never was.
Comparisons between what is and what never was are often laughable.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
OK, we hit the point in this thread where someone is denying that actual historical events, of which there are still quite a few living survivors, actually happened. I could spend my weekend googling images of the Square in Oxford in September 1962, but I have a life.
Next time you complain about Iran denying actual historical events, I'll be rolling my eyes.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I could spend my weekend googling images of the Square in Oxford in September 1962, but I have a life.
Some of us live for such challenges.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Show me one anti 20th amendment or title IX rally where someone is flying a Saudi flag. Just one.
You can't. Because it has never happened.
In Saudi Arabia the quran is the constitution and anti-female discrimination is a national pastime.
quote:
Show me one state where a governor or legislature erected the Saudi flag over the state capitol before refusing to allow women to register for classes or register to vote. Just one.
You can't. Because it has never happened.
Women vote in Saudi Arabia? Does anyone?
quote:
Ask me if I can show you one anti civil rights act rally where people are waving the confederate flag.
I can show you many of them.
What civil rights are there in Saudi Arabia?
quote:
The comparison is laughable.
Yeah, sure.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The comparison is laughable.
MN was describing a situation that is, that exists now. All of your examples are what never was.
Comparisons between what is and what never was are often laughable.
It happened, alright. Consistency should demand something along the lines of if taking down confederate flags is a good thing then burning Saudi flags is groovy.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Boy, your unwillingness to admit that maybe we should just listen to how black people feel about generations of shitty treatment is remarkable.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Boy, your unwillingness to admit that maybe we should just listen to how black people feel about generations of shitty treatment is remarkable.
Unfortunately it is common enough to not be remarkable at all.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Just finished the book I cited earlier in this thread. Just Mercy.
Bryan Stephenson, the author makes some very interesting points
He says there are four institutions in American history that shape our approach to race and justice.
The first one is slavery
Then there is the reign of terror which lasted from 1865 to WWII
Includes the KKK, lynching, police harassment, bombings,
Also convict leasing--where the states would convict blacks of petty crimes and then lease them to businesses. Actually happened throughout the US
Jim Crow laws--legalized segregation. The American Apartheid area.
When my wife and lived in Mississippi we found vestiges of this. We wanted to look at a house when we were looking for something to buy. The realtor kept avoiding the house. We asked about it. He told us we would not be interested because a black family lived there. My brother in law was black. We were quite offended by this.
Racial profiling is also a vestige of the Jim Crow era.
And then there is mass incarceration. Want to guess the percentage of minorities incarcerated in the US? Approximately 60% of those jailed are the minority. 34% of those in prison are white. The war on drugs targeted mostly black communities. If convicted of a crime most states refuse a black person's right t o vote
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
No, most states refuse a convicted felon the right to vote regardless of race. The idea that large numbers of African-Americans are in prison for using drugs while white tokers go unpunished is nonsense. Even if all inmates serving time for nonviolent drug offenses were released it wouldn't make a dent in the prison population. Proponents of prison reform claimed otherwise until actually doing research. But, who cares if pesky facts contradict your narrative?
Hands up, don't shoot ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The idea that large numbers of African-Americans are in prison for using drugs while white tokers go unpunished is nonsense. Even if all inmates serving time for nonviolent drug offenses were released it wouldn't make a dent in the prison population. Proponents of prison reform claimed otherwise until actually doing research.
I seem to recall hearing a similar assertion recently - do you have a reference for this?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Show me one anti 20th amendment or title IX rally where someone is flying a Saudi flag. Just one.
You can't. Because it has never happened.
In Saudi Arabia the quran is the constitution and anti-female discrimination is a national pastime.
quote:
Show me one state where a governor or legislature erected the Saudi flag over the state capitol before refusing to allow women to register for classes or register to vote. Just one.
You can't. Because it has never happened.
Women vote in Saudi Arabia? Does anyone?
Did I miss something where Saudi Arabia was admitted to the Union, got a governor, legislature and state capitol, or became subject to the American Constitution or American civil rights laws?
I doubt anyone would deny what happens in Saudi Arabia. But what does that have to do with the American Civil War or its after-effects here? Or with what Og has said?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
The point he is trying to make is that there are countries out there with awful human rights records, but he isn't out demanding that they take down the flags of those regimes at the Plaza hotel and Rockefeller Plaza.
What he's not asking is, why is it that black people do have a stronger reaction to the confederate flag than he does to the Saudi flag.
There are a few possibilities. Maybe black people are just too thinly skinned, and should be more like MN.
Maybe this is the NAACP just trying to troll the South.
Or maybe there is a third possibility, which is that the way MN feels when he sees the flag of Saudi Arabia or North Korea is fundamentally different from the way that some black people feel when they see a confederate flag.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Or maybe the Confederate flag is an issue for the USA to deal with, and therefore its citizens are the ones having the discussion and making the decision. Let the Saudis deal with the Saudi flag and / or their society.
Flying the Saudi flag anywhere in the USA does not imply sovereignty. Flying the Confederate flag does, and a whole lot more too.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Or maybe the Confederate flag is an issue for the USA to deal with, and therefore its citizens are the ones having the discussion and making the decision.
What makes this thread read like a parody to me are the number of people from outside the US (much less outside a particular state where the Confederate flag is flying) who are both dictating the meaning of the symbol and demanding that the citizens remove it.
But, hey, at least I don't think I've seen anyone on the Ship calling for displaying it to be made a hate crime.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Boy, your unwillingness to admit that maybe we should just listen to how black people feel about generations of shitty treatment is remarkable.
This has to be a joke, right?
We have been "listening" to it for at least my entire lifetime.
What is remarkable is the unwillingness of many to admit that in recent decades a majority of the shitty treatment is self inflicted.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Boy, your unwillingness to admit that maybe we should just listen to how black people feel about generations of shitty treatment is remarkable.
This has to be a joke, right?
We have been "listening" to it for at least my entire lifetime.
What is remarkable is the unwillingness of many to admit that in recent decades a majority of the shitty treatment is self inflicted.
That's delusional.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Matrix
Shipmate
# 3452
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Boy, your unwillingness to admit that maybe we should just listen to how black people feel about generations of shitty treatment is remarkable.
This has to be a joke, right?
We have been "listening" to it for at least my entire lifetime.
What is remarkable is the unwillingness of many to admit that in recent decades a majority of the shitty treatment is self inflicted.
That's delusional.
Wilfully so perhaps...
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Maybe that's all a family really is; a group of people who miss the same imaginary place. - Garden State
Posts: 3847 | From: The courts of the King | Registered: Oct 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Boy, your unwillingness to admit that maybe we should just listen to how black people feel about generations of shitty treatment is remarkable.
Of course we should listen. I don't see how you could conclude otherwise.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Or maybe the Confederate flag is an issue for the USA to deal with, and therefore its citizens are the ones having the discussion and making the decision. Let the Saudis deal with the Saudi flag and / or their society.
Flying the Saudi flag anywhere in the USA does not imply sovereignty. Flying the Confederate flag does, and a whole lot more too.
There's no reason for the confederate flag to imply sovereignty if it isn't flown on capitol grounds. However, like the Saudi flag, it can be seen as a sign of oppression by folks.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
There's no reason for the confederate flag to imply sovereignty if it isn't flown on capitol grounds.
Hmmm, born of a succession movement, incorporated into state flags as a defiance to the federal government. Nope, can't see any sovereignty issues there.
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
However, like the Saudi flag, it can be seen as a sign of oppression by folks.
Yes. But so too could the U.S. flag. And the UK flag. But that is not what they were created for.
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Of course we should listen. I don't see how you could conclude otherwise.
Becsuse your words don't seem to indicate you are. Not in my reading and apparently not in Og's either.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Hmmm, born of a succession movement, incorporated into state flags as a defiance to the federal government. Nope, can't see any sovereignty issues there.
There isn't, as long as they are not flown on capitols.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
However, like the Saudi flag, it can be seen as a sign of oppression by folks.
Yes. But so too could the U.S. flag. And the UK flag. But that is not what they were created for.
It's what the Saudi flag was created for.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Of course we should listen. I don't see how you could conclude otherwise.
Becsuse your words don't seem to indicate you are. Not in my reading and apparently not in Og's either.
I don't think such flags should fly at capitols. Only the flags of the current governments should fly there. I don't mind if they fly at memorials to the slaughtered.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This reminds me of the union flag (union jack) being known as the butcher's apron by various radicals and republicans, e.g. Irish, a phrase that still brings a chill over me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
The point he is trying to make is that there are countries out there with awful human rights records, but he isn't out demanding that they take down the flags of those regimes at the Plaza hotel and Rockefeller Plaza.
Actually, I saw it at the Fairmont as I strolled out of the se corner of Central Park. I suspect it is private property so they can fly what they want. However, I doubt they would be as willing to fly the battle flag next to the flag of oppression they were actually flying.
quote:
Or maybe there is a third possibility, which is that the way MN feels when he sees the flag of Saudi Arabia or North Korea is fundamentally different from the way that some black people feel when they see a confederate flag.
What I'm looking for is consistency from our national leaders who will express their distaste for the confederate battle flag yet bow to the king of Saudi Arabia or even hold his hand.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It's what the Saudi flag was created for.
OK, you could argue that. Does this mean you are in sympathy with Shiites and moderate Sunnis?
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I don't mind if they fly at memorials to the slaughtered.
So, not at Fredericksburg, Bull Run, Gettysburg, Chickamauga, any of these places or these places? Looking at this list, the casualties seem relatively equal in most. So where were the slaughters?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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